War is Imminent [Archive] - TheHolo.Net Forums

JonathanLB

Mar 18th, 2003, 01:14:05 AM

Ok first just as a matter of getting a fact straight here, lol, because it was funny to read...

Sanis is absolutely right. Carr, dude, those types of "world killer" meteors they are talking about, like one that is 1 km wide, are several THOUSAND TIMES as powerful as a nuclear warhead! That's what is truly amazing about that. I mean the power one of those harnesses is shocking. I was just reading about these the other day in a few articles discussing what is currently being done to protect us against that sort of threat. I believe both the U.S. and the U.K. are working on extensive mapping and detection systems so that we can keep track of these types of "Close to Earth Objects" that pose potential threats later in time. That is probably sufficient anyway because if such an object was coming at us and we are doing a good job at detection, we'd know WAY in advance, years in advance, and building a device with nuclear weapons on it to intercept such an asteroid would not actually be out of our capabilities even today as I understand. So detection is key. Once you know where they are and whether or not the trajectory is a threat, you can either throw the asteroid off course or you can try to destroy it.

I don' t see either option as being particularly difficult within 20 years even.

"Theres so much French crap in Iraq its kinda hard to tell the two apart. . ."

Hahahaha, Lebron is on today. That was damn funny. I say we go for France right after Iraq -- they seem to be a major threat to worldwide peace efforts. ;)

ReaperFett

Mar 18th, 2003, 03:44:03 AM

I say you drop this entire "attack France" joke now before someone takes offense.

JonathanLB

Mar 18th, 2003, 04:02:20 AM

Because I suggest you take it easy and remember I didn't start it, so don't get on my case about it.

France is a piece of you-know-what and I don't care if anyone takes offense at it. In fact, I hope someone does -- they should be ashamed of their country. Anyone from France should be embarrassed and ashamed of their pitiful country. I will say what I want about their cowardly country. I feel very strongly about the subject and I have a right to be disgusted with the just as I am disgusted with the Nazis or with Saddams actions in the past or with a child murderer or anyone or anything else. That's my right to say what I think when a country has NO courage and NO moral compass whatsoever and thinks that by asking "nicely" we will get what we want, in the process screwing up and ruining the entire diplomatic process single-handedly. They are a disgrace to the U.N. and to the world.

This is appropriate for now, though:

99 Red Balloons:

You and I in a little toy shop
Buy a bag of balloons with the money we've got.
Set them free at the break of dawn
'Til one by one, they were gone.
Back at base, bugs in the software
Flash the message, Something's out there.
Floating in the summer sky.
99 red balloons go by.

99 red balloons.
floating in the summer sky.
Panic bells, it's red alert.
There's something here from somewhere else.
The war machine springs to life.
Opens up one eager eye.
Focusing it on the sky.
Where 99 red balloons go by.

99 Decision Street.
99 ministers meet.
To worry, worry, super-scurry.
Call the troops out in a hurry.
This is what we've waited for.
This is it boys, this is war.
The president is on the line
As 99 red balloons go by.

99 Knights of the air
Ride super-high-tech jet fighters
Everyone's a superhero.
Everyone's a Captain Kirk.
With orders to identify.
To clarify and classify.
Scramble in the summer sky.
As 99 red balloons go by.

99 dreams I have had.
In every one a red balloon.
It's all over and I'm standing pretty.
In this dust that was a city.
If I could find a souvenier.
Just to prove the world was here.
And here is a red balloon
I think of you and let it go.

Janus Versa

Mar 18th, 2003, 04:13:48 AM

Edit: Carry on. Let's see what comes of it.

Dutchy

Mar 18th, 2003, 04:17:21 AM

Yeah, and George W. did a GREAT diplomatic job, huh?

Appropriate you quote a GERMAN song, by the way. :)

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 18th, 2003, 04:45:01 AM

, in the process screwing up and ruining the entire diplomatic process single-handedly. They are a disgrace to the U.N. and to the world.

Well gee, that's exactly what the Bush Administration did. If they had any diplomatic skill, they would already be in Bagdad, unopposed. Instead they have created a diplomatic disaster, Blair is likely to get a wedgy from his own party and frankly, made the "Coalition of the Willing" look like the bad guys.

A bit of skill and diplomacy woudl have done well.

What makes (I believe) most of us concerned is the total rush to war with little thinking. Certainly, Rumsfield scares the crap outta us with his big mouth and the whole thing seems very cowboy. I think war could have been supported if the USA went about things differently and I suspect if the Bush Admin wasnt so lousy at playing politics, US troops would be in Bagdad right now with not a lot of stir.

The current opposition that has developed can be laid at the feet of the Bush Admin for not convincing the world for the need for this war. I'll make that point again, the case has not been made - if it has been, then it's not been in a way that can be understood.

There was a great deal of sympathy for the USA after Sept 11. rightly so. IF the Administration had gone about it right or even near right, they could have used that sympathy and be seen as a just cause. right now, it's not. It's seen as anything but just.

You might want to think about that.

jjwr

Mar 18th, 2003, 06:10:27 AM

The way I see it Bush wanted this war regardless and once the UN started to even balk a little he lost it and never quite regained the control of the situation and kept grasphing and pushing it farther away.

Yeah the French president didn't exactly do a good thing, then again I'm not too proud of Bush either. Yeah he'll get his results but he's not in Texas anymore, one of the big concerns about him going into electing was his lack of Diplomatic Skills and no International experience. I think 3 years in we can pretty much say all those opinions were pretty much dead on.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 18th, 2003, 06:53:04 AM

Bush, in the end is a talking head. It's his cabinet and the rest of the administration that is the sum total of the probelm/ You really only have one man whom seems to have a diplomatic clue and that is Powell. Rumsfield, as I have indicated is scary with his big mouth.

The thing is, few doubt Saddam needs to be outsed. few really believe that he isnt hiding anything. BUT, the attitude of the USA has been as offensive to the International community as the French appear to have been to the USA.

It's not the French who should be given a good square kick up the backside. It's instead the Bush administration, for lettign so much good will go completely to waste. They COULD have done this so differently and if they had, not even the french would have raised a murmur. the Intl community KNOW Saddam is an evil man. They KNOW he could be dangerous. The USA had a lot of diplomatic advantages and yet completely squandered them.

Strangely, the best outcome now is that the USA rolls in and it's troops are hit with WMD, or they find them. It will justify this action nicely. I hope in this case they do find them, because if they dont, it's not going to look good for the USA is it?

Darth Viscera

Mar 18th, 2003, 07:14:05 AM

:rolleyes

No amount of diplomacy would have convinced France and its puppets to back this war. It's not our fault that they couldn't be convinced, it's theirs. They were the rigid ones, they were the ones with hidden agendas and massive premitigating economic circumstances. We tried for 12 years to bring them onboard. This is their failure, not ours.

Anyone looking at this objectively would be appalled that such international controversy could be caused simply because a nation lost a war, refused to comply with the cease-fire agreements, and the war has to resume. What was the point of putting conditions in the cease-fire agreement, if we weren't supposed to hold them to those agreements? Were we WRONG to ask them if they could pretty please stop gassing themselves and their neighbors in a timely fashion?

If France's objective was to stab themselves by rendering the U.N. Security Council (and their own veto vote) irrelevant, then congratulations Jacques, you did it. You castrated the U.N. again.

We weren't obliged to spend 12 years begging other countries to let us take out Saddam, but we did it anyway.

Honestly, wasn't the U.N. formed to PREVENT the rise of power of such dictators like Saddam, not to argue about the legal nuances of their murderous rule?

Darth Viscera

Mar 18th, 2003, 07:21:43 AM

Originally posted by Marcus Elessar
Strangely, the best outcome now is that the USA rolls in and it's troops are hit with WMD, or they find them. It will justify this action nicely. I hope in this case they do find them, because if they dont, it's not going to look good for the USA is it?

Oh yeah, that would just be a great outcome if 250,000 U.S. troops were mustard gassed. Even if we don't find any WMDs, and let me just emphasize how unbelievably unlikely that is, we'll have taken out a regime that's slaughtered more arabs than anyone else since Ghengis Khan, 750 years ago. The liberated Iraqis are going to be dancing in the streets when they see Abrahms tanks roll by. That's enough, by God.

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 07:39:01 AM

^

What he said.

Morgan Evanar

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:57:21 AM

Oh yeah, that would just be a great outcome if 250,000 U.S. troops were mustard gassed.

Actually, I was talking to someone this weekend who is a former NBC (nuclear biological chemical) warfare officer from the Army, and we're far more likely to suffer death from the protective suits than a chemical/biological weapon.

They had people passing out left and right during training in Florida. And while its quite balmy here, its much hotter in the middle of the desert.

:rolleyes perhaps you should learn a bit more about how the military operates and its equipment.

If they use a WMD they just proved the US's point. Hopefully we would be prepared. (probably)

Jedieb

Mar 18th, 2003, 10:20:14 AM

Thousands of people are going to be dying within a matter of hours. This is making me sick.

I have a bad feeling that our casualties will be much higher than those of Desert Storm. Saddam wasn't faced with removal then, just the loss of an invaded territory. When faced with a no-win scenario, I don't see any reason why he WOULDN'T use WMD. He's going to lose, he knows it. He'll probably try to take out as many people as he can. I believe he'll directly target Israel and do whatever he can to American or British targets.

Bush now has the war he wanted. I hope he can live with the results.

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 11:01:09 AM

Casualties will no doubt be higher, but the benefits to all much greater. The people out there on the front lines know exactly what they're fighting for.

ReaperFett

Mar 18th, 2003, 11:02:53 AM

I look at it this way. Casualties in Desert Storm were lower due to the job not being finished. This is only happening due to this. At the very least Saddam should be under war crimes for what he did in '88, bare minimum.

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 11:04:10 AM

Maximum would be him drawn & quartered by his own people in Baghdad. ^_^; One can hope.

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 18th, 2003, 11:37:40 AM

Yeah but the American people probably won't be happy they will think the higher casuality rate is Bush's fault. I am also afraid of things like happening in Somalia we might see several cases of what happened there.

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 11:59:53 AM

What, Americans fighting with the most one-sided loss rate in any military conflict of mankind's history?

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 18th, 2003, 12:27:39 PM

We had a lot of casualities in Somalia, of course Somalia was a mess and is still a mess and might be a different situation than Iraq.

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 12:36:23 PM

Um...our casualty ratio in Somalia was the best any force has ever had in any military operation. Yes, we lost people. They lost far, far, far more. Ounce for ounce, the US soldiers on the streets of Mogadishu fought harder than nearly anybody, in any war, ever.

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 18th, 2003, 12:37:53 PM

Yeah but Somalia is still a mess we didn't accomplish anything there.

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 12:42:09 PM

Yes, but to call it a tactical loss is a mistake.

Jedieb

Mar 18th, 2003, 12:55:33 PM

The people out there on the front lines know exactly what they're fighting for.
The people out there on the front lines are doing their jobs. They don't all support this war. Don't think that for a second. I can guarantee you many of those Reservists were not happy with being called up. But that's not a soldier's option. You serve because it's your job. But to imply that they'll do their job better because they all support the action is a mistake. There have been plenty of former military commanders who've been critical of this war and the way it's being handled. Not everyone wearing a uniform believes in this.

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 01:09:36 PM

If they don't, there's always applying for "concientious objector" status, or hey...DON'T SIGN UP IN THE FIRST PLACE.

What gripes me is these guys who "did it for the college money" and are *gasp* shocked that they are now being asked to fight.

Jedieb

Mar 18th, 2003, 01:18:14 PM

How many of those "guys" have you spoken to? Do you have ANYTHING to back that gripe up? Grab a clue. They signed up for a variety of reasons. None of which apparently grabbed your attention and compelled you to sign your name on the dotted line. But they STILL serve, irregardless of whether they agree with the decision to invade. And believe me, many of them do. You don't pick and choose which order you feel like following. Just as you don't pick and choose which elected officials to follow or which laws to obey.

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 01:22:38 PM

How many of those "guys" have you spoken to?

Seven

Do you have ANYTHING to back that gripe up? Grab a clue.

See above

None of which apparently grabbed your attention and compelled you to sign your name on the dotted line.

As already stated ad nauseum, I am signing up for reserve duty upon graduation in one year.

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 18th, 2003, 01:51:11 PM

Yeah but if we didn't gain anything out of Somalia then I say the war or conflict was a loss, so what we killed more men, we killed more Vietnemese I don't consier that a victor either.

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 01:59:09 PM

Both Somalia and Vietnam had murky parameters of victory. Iraq does not. In such a situation, I do not doubt that we'll have overwhelming success.

Wei Wu Wei

Mar 18th, 2003, 02:13:36 PM

I could never sign up for the military. I just don't feel like that's where I would be best serving my country, you know? But big kudos to the ones that do put on the uniform.

JMK

Mar 18th, 2003, 02:14:43 PM

At what point is a war succesful? How many casualties will happen before you say it wasn't worth the effort, that the losses were too great?

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 18th, 2003, 02:17:20 PM

That is hard to say WW 2 the casualities didn't matter because of the possibility of Hitler winning was worse. Now WW 1 for example was a complete waste of lives, nothing was accomplished from that war. This one who knows, I think we will win easily probably take 3-4 months at the most, but its the afterwards I am worried about there are a lot of problems and this could blow up into worse problems.

Dutchy

Mar 18th, 2003, 02:22:07 PM

I was wondering, if Bush is sure Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, wouldn't attacking Saddam actually MAKE him use them?

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 02:28:51 PM

Dutchy, please remove your avatar.

And yes, we run that risk. But we sure don't alleviate the risk by doing nothing about it, and allowing whatever stockpile he has to grow, or upgrade into something more lethal. Striking now = lessens potential impact.

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 18th, 2003, 02:31:45 PM

Yeah that avatar defintely has to go nothing to do with protesting just the use of that one word.

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 02:36:58 PM

Darth Viscera

Mar 18th, 2003, 03:59:42 PM

I have to ask-- Dutchy, what on earth possessed you to use that as your avatar?

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 18th, 2003, 04:30:45 PM

Cause it's true?

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 04:33:33 PM

That is debateable and irrelevant. It is offensive, and violates the FAQ rules.

Darth Viscera

Mar 18th, 2003, 05:13:05 PM

The administration of late has been making a huge case that no more cusswords, from the d-word on up, are to be tolerated, and then dutchy comes in and defies that rather blatantly. Dutchy, did you not catch the sticky thread? You know that your little avatar experimentation runs the risk of getting this thread closed, right?

Dutchy

Mar 18th, 2003, 05:23:12 PM

I see my little avatar experimentation exceeds the war discussion.

I guess some people are more offended by that one word than by a war and its discussion.

TheHolo.Net

Mar 18th, 2003, 05:25:35 PM

Originally posted by Dutchy
I see my little avatar experimentation exceeds the war discussion.

I guess some people are more offended by that one word than by a war and its discussion. An announcement regarding profanity was up no more than two days ago and it is also expressly forbidden as stated in our FAQ. That is all. It has nothing to do with war sentiment. It has everything to do with our forum's rules and regulations and the virtual "contract" you signed when you created an account here.

Dutchy

Mar 18th, 2003, 05:31:15 PM

I missed that announcement. I know the rules, though.

By the way:

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
I can't wait to get some good footage from this war. I wish I had a TiVo, actually. I'm going to be digitally recording this stuff whenever something good comes on and archiving it onto DVD-Recordables. Unfortunately, it'll be 5 more years before a war is able to be broadcast in high definition on Fox News Live or CNN.

What parts of this post are serious?

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 05:34:49 PM

Likely every bit of it, as DV's big into digital video stuff.

Jedieb

Mar 18th, 2003, 06:32:29 PM

quote:
How many of those "guys" have you spoken to?

Seven

And have you told all 7 of those guys how they're annoying you? I'm sure they'd appreciate such a special send off. ;)

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 06:41:09 PM

In not so many words, I've spoken my mind on the issue, yes.

Darth Viscera

Mar 18th, 2003, 06:51:01 PM

I sure am. I didn't spend a year on video compression, $300 on a DVD recorder and $90 on 75 blank DVDs so that I could miss recording the first serious war that I'm actually consciously aware of (not counting Afghanistan). I'm going to be actively recording everything war-related that comes on CNN starting when the first shots are fired. Fox News Live had its war correspondents in Baghdad expelled 2 months ago (for being too pro-western in front of minders, probably), so I have to go with CNN, who very likely still has people staying in the Al Rasheed, waiting for the JDAMs to fall.

I want to have my own little archive of the events, or as much as I can get. If you want to stick your nose up at the idea of my archive and call me callous, go right ahead. I also own historical books about many of the wars in recorded history, doesn't mean I feel no emotions when I read about how the English and French armies came to within 20 miles of Jerusalem during the third crusade before deciding to declare war on each other.

ReaperFett

Mar 18th, 2003, 06:58:38 PM

Just thought I'd share for you an article I scanned for a Newspaper. in 3 parts:

ReaperFett

Mar 18th, 2003, 07:02:14 PM

part 2

ReaperFett

Mar 18th, 2003, 07:03:17 PM

and 3

Sejah Haversh

Mar 18th, 2003, 07:23:15 PM

And those articles are the exact reason I support this war. These should be the reasons we tell the public why we are attacking.

"The greatest evil occurs when good men do nothing." Is a very serious quote, though for once, I cannot remember the speaker.

We did not know about a lot of the atricities that Hitler and the Nazi regime perpetrated against the Jews in concentration camps until the end of the war when these camps were liberated. Who knows what else we will find when we attack, and win.

How many people can we save by attacking now instead of later? I don't say that Bush is a warmonger, I just say he's the only guy with the balls to say, "Saddam is doing evil things, and dang it, I'm going to stop him."

Admiral Lebron

Mar 18th, 2003, 07:27:03 PM

Watching war on tv is cool. The best part is watching the cruise missiles being guided down into cars and stuff. Its so neat.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 18th, 2003, 07:37:06 PM

And might I ask, why did the USA and it's allies NOT kick out Hussein when they had the chance last time? Why is it they now have the humanitarian issues rasied, when they were known about in 1991? Why was he not trown out then? Why did the USA and UK stand back while several cities in the north of Iraq rebelled, and were put down brutally not long after the first Gulf war?

Dont give me this humanitarian excuse. They had their chance, they deliberatly did not take it in 1991 like they should have. Where where the USa and UK when other humanitarian disasters occured, liek the Rwanda genocide? Or how about Zimbabwe right now? Or why did it take 11/9 for the USA to roll through the Taliban?

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 07:53:16 PM

And might I ask, why did the USA and it's allies NOT kick out Hussein when they had the chance last time?

Allied coallition refused support on any mission other than removing Iraqi forces from Kuwait. Were it not for sharp objections from Arab League nations, the deed would already be done.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 18th, 2003, 07:59:04 PM

Allied coallition refused support on any mission other than removing Iraqi forces from Kuwait. Were it not for sharp objections from Arab League nations, the deed would already be done.

There's an interesting set of irony here with the present saituation

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 08:02:53 PM

What, that we finally stop taking crap from two-faced blind multilateralists and decide to do whats right, be-damned with whoever may join the fray as well?

We're rectifying over a decade of wrong here. Nobody will be more thankful that we've gone back to Iraq to make things right than me.

Admiral Lebron

Mar 18th, 2003, 08:59:44 PM

Marcus, ya know, if you have problems with Africa, right your Prime Minister, demand the Australian Military do something there.

ReaperFett

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:04:11 PM

PRESIDENT CHIRAC: I have said that it is indeed thanks to the pressure of British and American troops that the Iraqi authorities and Saddam Hussein have changed their position and have agreed to cooperate with the inspectors..

So I would say that the Americans have already won, and they haven’t fired a single bullet.
I think this is a good sign. Wether he agrees with war or not, he doesnt disagree that the US was important.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:13:30 PM

Originally posted by Admiral Lebron
Marcus, ya know, if you have problems with Africa, right your Prime Minister, demand the Australian Military do something there.

And your point is........?

Do some reasearch to see what involvement Australia already has.

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:16:54 PM

Yeah, Australia is in some league of former British colonies* that are trying to beat Zimbabwe with a stick (as they should)

* pawns

Lilaena De'Ville

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:17:34 PM

What involvement does Australia have already?

Admiral Lebron

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:20:09 PM

Well its not like I ever hear about it. Sheesh.

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:23:45 PM

r33d y0!

Thats how you find out about these things.

Admiral Lebron

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:24:33 PM

Meh. I'm 15... gimme a break.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:25:58 PM

Originally posted by Admiral Lebron
Meh. I'm 15... gimme a break.

You wanted to know, so go googlign and find out.

Admiral Lebron

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:26:43 PM

No. I have essays on the Elephant man to write... fun fun.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:30:05 PM

Originally posted by Admiral Lebron
No. I have essays on the Elephant man to write... fun fun.

So why are you here posting? Get on google instead and get informed

Admiral Lebron

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:31:28 PM

Because... before I can write the essay on the Elephant man, I have to write an essay on Prussia. And I am having writers block as to way Prussia was cool.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:34:44 PM

I say again...... So why are you here posting? Get on google instead and get informed

Admiral Lebron

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:37:22 PM

That requires massive reading. This. I read a post, write one, hit refresh every minute or two. Its simple.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:39:34 PM

Oh what complete and utter rot. Dont complain about being uninformed if your not prepared to find things out. (Yes, Morgan, I agree, and I will do so)

Admiral Lebron

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:41:20 PM

I'm not complaining... Its more of a plea.

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 09:54:37 PM

Lilaena De'Ville

Mar 18th, 2003, 10:24:44 PM

Charley, do you not have anything better to do? o_O

Sanis Prent

Mar 18th, 2003, 10:25:20 PM

probably, just can't think of any

Figrin D'an

Mar 19th, 2003, 01:32:49 AM

This is kind of interesting...

http://in.news.yahoo.com/030309/139/22017.html

Dutchy

Mar 19th, 2003, 01:38:37 AM

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
I sure am. I didn't spend a year on video compression, $300 on a DVD recorder and $90 on 75 blank DVDs so that I could miss recording the first serious war that I'm actually consciously aware of (not counting Afghanistan). I'm going to be actively recording everything war-related that comes on CNN starting when the first shots are fired. Fox News Live had its war correspondents in Baghdad expelled 2 months ago (for being too pro-western in front of minders, probably), so I have to go with CNN, who very likely still has people staying in the Al Rasheed, waiting for the JDAMs to fall.

I want to have my own little archive of the events, or as much as I can get. If you want to stick your nose up at the idea of my archive and call me callous, go right ahead. I also own historical books about many of the wars in recorded history, doesn't mean I feel no emotions when I read about how the English and French armies came to within 20 miles of Jerusalem during the third crusade before deciding to declare war on each other.

Have fun watching your countrymen and others die.

I'm sure it's a lot less shocking than my avatar.

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 02:08:23 AM

Originally posted by Dutchy
Have fun watching your countrymen and others die.

I'm sure it's a lot less shocking than my avatar.

:cry!!! :rollin :cry!!!

Good grief. Pity protest = not cool. Your avatar was against the FAQ. That's it. Finito. FAQ = couldn't care less which way you swing on the war issue.

Dutchy

Mar 19th, 2003, 02:14:23 AM

Dude, this is not about my avatar. Who cares. I'm just showing the contradiction.

ReaperFett

Mar 19th, 2003, 03:54:30 AM

Is Viscera a Mod? No. Vis can do whatever he wants in his own home. Avatars arent in your own home. Hence, no contradiction.

And how is it any different from a WW2 documentary?

Darth Viscera

Mar 19th, 2003, 05:04:55 AM

Originally posted by Dutchy
Have fun watching your countrymen and others die.

I'm sure it's a lot less shocking than my avatar.

I will not forgive you for saying that. That was a detestable thing to say.

Dutchy

Mar 19th, 2003, 05:24:00 AM

Your country goes to war and you say: "Yes, finally! Now I can use my new DVD device and record all the events!".

That's detestable.

ReaperFett

Mar 19th, 2003, 05:42:40 AM

He didnt say that. And as I said, do you find watching WW2 documentaries detestable? Why cant he make his own? BBC showed last night a documentary that compared the stylings of people such as Hitler and Reagan. They showed footage of the war. So, is the BBC detestable too?

Dutchy

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:26:37 AM

Originally posted by ReaperFett
He didnt say that.

Yes, he did:

I didn't spend a year on video compression, $300 on a DVD recorder and $90 on 75 blank DVDs so that I could miss recording the first serious war that I'm actually consciously aware of

ReaperFett

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:45:41 AM

Which means "I bought recording equipment, now I can use it", different from "Yes, finally! Now I can use my new DVD device and record all the events!"

And anyway, stop avoiding my question. That's the second time you totally dodged it.

And as I said, do you find watching WW2 documentaries detestable? Why cant he make his own? BBC showed last night a documentary that compared the stylings of people such as Hitler and Reagan. They showed footage of the war. So, is the BBC detestable too?

Dutchy

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:59:53 AM

Originally posted by ReaperFett
Which means "I bought recording equipment, now I can use it", different from "Yes, finally! Now I can use my new DVD device and record all the events!"

Which is basically the same.

And anyway, stop avoiding my question. That's the second time you totally dodged it.

I figured I answered your question indirectly. Does the BBC say: "Yes, we're going to war, now we can finally use our new studio and broadcast all the footage"?

Darth Viscera

Mar 19th, 2003, 07:21:47 AM

I'm going to be recording the news coverage of the war. I don't give a hoot what you think about it.

Dutchy

Mar 19th, 2003, 07:24:16 AM

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
I don't give a hoot what you think about it.

What are you doin' on a discussion forum if you don't care what people think?

Oh wait, you don't what *I* think, of course.

Darth Viscera

Mar 19th, 2003, 07:29:39 AM

Originally posted by Dutchy
What are you doin' on a discussion forum if you don't care what people think?

Certainly not looking for arguments about what I can and can't record from a person who's grumpy that he got caught cussing and wants to blame it on someone else.

Dutchy

Mar 19th, 2003, 07:32:58 AM

I'm not grumpy at all, I even used that avatar on purpose to see how you guys'd react. Of course I understand I can't use an avatar with that word on it.

I just wanted to show that some people make a bigger deal about a word than about a war.

imported_Eve

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:40:02 AM

Oh, get over it. You violated the rules. End of story. Let's not dodge the reprimand with, "Oh, I just WANTED you to act that way." Let's not start harping on Vis about something completely searched for. Cmon now. You did something wrong. The right thing to do is accept it, and move on. You're not proving any intellectual point here, or showing anyone "the light".

And as for Aussie involvement: if asked for evidence of it, why can't you just bring it up, rather than skating it off to "go look it up." Talk about it, here and now, or stop arguing it.

And by the way, we've been bombing Iraq every week since the Gulf War. So, you can't say the US has let things go for all that time. LOOK IT UP.

Dutchy

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:50:06 AM

Originally posted by Eve
Oh, get over it. You violated the rules. End of story. Let's not dodge the reprimand with, "Oh, I just WANTED you to act that way." Let's not start harping on Vis about something completely searched for. Cmon now. You did something wrong. The right thing to do is accept it, and move on. You're not proving any intellectual point here, or showing anyone "the light".

Yes, I deliberately acted that way and knew I was wrong. I even admit it! Doh. I totally understand I violated the rules and I totally accept it, and I moved on already and still do.

So, without referring to that avatar again, I'll repost my comment.

Originally posted by Dutchy
Your country goes to war and you say: "Yes, finally! Now I can use my new DVD device and record all the events!".

That's detestable.

Wei Wu Wei

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:09:47 AM

Nothing detestable about it at all. WAR is detestable. Recording it so future generations can watch it, learn from it, and then work to not make the same mistakes is not.

Darth Viscera

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:15:14 AM

Dutchy, stop haranguing me. Stop putting words in my mouth.

ReaperFett

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:20:38 AM

Still dont see what is wrong with basically making your own history reference. He can read a book, watch a video, but cant make his own?

Dutchy

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:28:48 AM

Originally posted by ReaperFett
Still dont see what is wrong with basically making your own history reference. He can read a book, watch a video, but cant make his own?

Sure he can, but he sounded like he was actually GLAD the war had finally begun.

ReaperFett

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:36:57 AM

SOUNDED. So you werent 100%, but wanted to insult him?

Dutchy

Mar 19th, 2003, 10:06:24 AM

I wanted to comment on it.

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 02:09:12 PM

<a href=http://www.panic.hopto.org/swf/charley/wartalk.mp3>mmm...pwnd. delicious.</a>

Darth Viscera

Mar 19th, 2003, 02:22:13 PM

It would be nice if more Iraqi immigrants stepped up to the plate and handed those dimwits their rear ends.

People from the arab countries are very loud, btw. They don't mean to shout while they're talking, it just comes naturally.

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 02:29:18 PM

Ever been to Dearborn, Michigan? Its like a small Iraqi microcosm up there. We've got a fraternity chapter there.

Darth Viscera

Mar 19th, 2003, 02:39:29 PM

No, never been there, but I know what it's like. Every 10th store or restaurant is middle eastern over here in sub-DC. It makes for really nice kabob-e-chengeh and those airy puffy pastry things that are slightly sweet on top and have flakes in the middle and are really light.

I stand by my theory that if we have a 72 hour feast in liberated baghdad, catered by the finest iraqi immigrant restaurant owners that america has to offer, kubideh and chengeh for all (for free) for a flat 3 days, the Iraqi people will be absolutely euphoric. They only get to eat that well once a year, before ramadan.

sirdizzy

Mar 19th, 2003, 04:31:39 PM

recently i got into an arguement about the validity of a war with iraq as i am anti war or how i like to say it pro peace

well this indivisual who is pro war called me anti american as his defense to his point of view (i have seen a lot of this lately it seems to be that people who are pro only have this point to stand on) and told me i should move to france

i found the whole statement ironic because it is the most anti american statement i have ever heard

i don't like your point of view therefor you should move to another country

i believe this country was founded on the freedom of speech and the freedom to express your opinions without fear of persuction, and also the freedom to disagree with political leaders

but it seems now that we should all just follow Bush without question even if we believe him to be a terrorist and akin to Adolph Hitler himself

when the pilgrim fled europe to settle america they did so because of religious persocution and now those who have a disentining political view on the world are being told to leave the country underpolitical persuction

President Bush has torn this country to shreds, he has torn our relationship with the world to shreds, he has implemented nazi principles like the homelnad defense bill and yet because i have the courage to stand up and excersise my right of freedom of speech i am anti american

it makes me weep tears of sorrow for the state of America which i once held in high asteem may god have mercy on all our souls

ReaperFett

Mar 19th, 2003, 04:45:03 PM

Many anti-war protesters around the world ARE anti-American. It's pathetic, the main reason Id never do a march if I supported them. DOnt know about the US, but in Europe it is.

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 04:49:52 PM

(i have seen a lot of this lately it seems to be that people who are pro only have this point to stand on)

You must not run into many pro war people, or at least educated ones. There are points upon points upon points to argue for action.

but it seems now that we should all just follow Bush without question even if we believe him to be a terrorist and akin to Adolph Hitler himself

You honestly believe that?

when the pilgrim fled europe to settle america they did so because of religious persocution and now those who have a disentining political view on the world are being told to leave the country underpolitical persuction

People disagree. I haven't seen any persecutions or legislation to bolster said imaginary persecution. I think another right, which lies overlooked and embedded in the 1st amendment that we all love, is the right to argue. If somebody has a crappy point, I'll give them hell for it. Albeit, you have those who aren't educated, but I'm definitely not going to let stupids speak without making fun of them for wasting my oxygen.

President Bush has torn this country to shreds

Oh? News to me...

he has torn our relationship with the world to shreds

You're a regular news flash...

he has implemented nazi principles like the homelnad defense bill

Misallocation of tax dollars and duct tape, yes. Nazi principles? Are you on peyotie?

and yet because i have the courage to stand up and excersise my right of freedom of speech i am anti american

So you've run into a stupid rightie. Wow.

it makes me weep tears of sorrow for the state of America which i once held in high asteem may god have mercy on all our souls

I fail to see the problem here, other than stupids operating on both sides of an issue, and drowning out voices of reason. NO BLOOD FOR OIL ARRG vs GO TO FRANCE, HIPPY. We know stupids exist. That's why American Idol is so popular.

Dutchy

Mar 19th, 2003, 04:50:35 PM

I saw a bit of Bush' speech again today. I have to say I really like him saying that this war is the liberation of the Iraqi people. That's a good side-affect for sure, though I don't know if the people look at it that way as well.

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 04:53:37 PM

Many anti-war protesters around the world ARE anti-American. It's pathetic, the main reason Id never do a march if I supported them. DOnt know about the US, but in Europe it is.

This is absolutely correct. A large number of the marches in America have been organized by a group called ANSWER, which is a communist interest group. And communists, if you read Marx, differ from socialists in the preference of VIOLENT OVERTHROW OF CAPITALIST DEMOCRACIES (that's us, kids). I'm not speaking for every protester* who participates, but I am calling out the ones behind setting it up.

*sheep

ReaperFett

Mar 19th, 2003, 04:53:38 PM

The people who flee the country whenever they can? The people who had a pro-war march in Manchester?

he has torn our relationship with the world to shreds
Trust me, you didnt have a great rep BEFORE Bush.

Dutchy

Mar 19th, 2003, 04:58:10 PM

Originally posted by sirdizzy
President Bush ... has implemented nazi principles

That's an awful thing to say. America has become very scared after September 11th 2001, and deservedly so. "If you're not with us, you're against us" is his rather brutal motto. Bush just wishes all the best for his own people and whoever threatens them will pay. IMO they're going too far with it with this war, but essentialy it's a good thing to protect your own people.

imported_Eve

Mar 19th, 2003, 05:18:46 PM

What's wrong with implementing a program for defense? I think it's to make everyone feel better, and that is it's only purpose, but I don't see any concentration camps anywhere.

That's like saying someone raped you when you just didn't like the sex. Cmon now.

Wei Wu Wei

Mar 19th, 2003, 05:26:08 PM

America feels threatened by Saddam Hussein. America feels threatened by just about everything right now. It was like this in the Red Scare. People were paranoid of Communists, and lots of people overreacted. I'll admit, some of these actions America is taking are overreactions.

I agree that America should not do whatever it wants because it feels threatened. Our feelings will more often lie to us than tell us the truth.

Morgan Evanar

Mar 19th, 2003, 05:28:57 PM

This is absolutely correct. A large number of the marches in America have been organized by a group called ANSWER, which is a communist interest group. And communists, if you read Marx, differ from socialists in the preference of VIOLENT OVERTHROW OF CAPITALIST DEMOCRACIES (that's us, kids). I'm not speaking for every protester* who participates, but I am calling out the ones behind setting it up.
*sheep

Thanks for the adhorn, but I won't take it personally. I could, of course, turn around and say the same thing, that you're blindly following a foolish man who has stripped away more civil rights than any President before him.

I disagree with this war because we don't have a plan for an afterwords. I'd be a lot more positive on it if we had given Afganistan the Marshall plan treatment, but we've bombed the crap out of their country and left them to rot. I'm sure they'll remember us fondly for that

So I'm against this war because I'm convinced it will do more harm than good in the long run.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 05:35:59 PM

[). I'm not speaking for every protester* who participates, but I am calling out the ones behind setting it up.

*sheep

-_-

has it occured to you, maybe, just maybe that anti war protesters just may, in the very slightest have valid and well thought out reasons for their position? You have the appearence of saying that everyone not agreeing with you is an idiot.

We are not.

Darth Viscera

Mar 19th, 2003, 05:43:54 PM

Left them to rot? Where did you hear this?

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 05:45:29 PM

There's a reason to think this way...

<a href=http://www.panic.hopto.org/swf/charley/warmarch.mov>Feel free to speak up, sane protestors!</a>

If I were you (hypothetical sane protestor), I'd find the nearest loud, dumb protestor, and beat them to the ground with a nerf bat* and keep them from hogging the mic, so you can get your hypothetically-sane views out.

*non-violent STFU hilarity

Morgan Evanar

Mar 19th, 2003, 05:45:48 PM

Um, judging by how much aide we're spending over there and the fact that we don't have a plan for rebuilding their nation published, I'd say we're leaving them to rot.

ReaperFett

Mar 19th, 2003, 05:46:03 PM

Morg, there's still a force in Afghanistan. British. That was our main job.

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 05:52:34 PM

Also, we're helping Afghanistan MULTILATERALLY!!!

YAY! :crack

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 05:53:27 PM

If I were you (hypothetical sane protestor), I'd find the nearest loud, dumb protestor, and beat them to the ground with a nerf bat* and keep them from hogging the mic, so you can get your hypothetically-sane views out.

* sigh *

Darth Viscera

Mar 19th, 2003, 05:57:18 PM

Morg, you can find military updates about the allied forces in afghanistan and ongoing humanitarian and PR ops at centcom.mil.

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:00:48 PM

I've had to pop ultra-right zanies on the knoggin for being stupids...no sighs about it...not everyone in an issue's constituency is a sane person. I'm vastly more critical of far right stupids than I am of far left stupids. At least the bandwagon effect accounts for that discrepancy.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:04:00 PM

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
Morg, you can find military updates about the allied forces in afghanistan and ongoing humanitarian and PR ops at centcom.mil.

No thanks, I prefer getting my news from an unbias and accurate source. Morgan is right, the humanitarian aid to Afghanistan has hardly turned up.

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/10/06/afghanistan.rebuilding/

I'd say that report is the most positive I have read. Others have been rather slamming of the lack of assistance. Seems to be a bit hard to get current updates, given Iraq has all but swamped news on Afghanistan.

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:09:24 PM

CNN? Unbiased? BWAAAAAAHAAAAAAAHAAAA!!!

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:11:13 PM

Better than the blatantly bias Murdoch press. I'd rather link from ABC Australia or the BBC when I find them.

ReaperFett

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:12:14 PM

I'd say that report is the most positive I have read. Others have been rather slamming of the lack of assistance. Seems to be a bit hard to get current updates, given Iraq has all but swamped news on Afghanistan
This to me says it is hard to be accurate.

Darth Viscera

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:14:24 PM

ROFL! CNN is unbiased?! :lol :lol :lol

Morgan Evanar

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:14:51 PM

Then please, show me a source you consider unbiased that says we're really working on rebuilding Afgahnistan and have a coherent plan in the footsteps of Marshall.

ReaperFett

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:15:48 PM

There's no such thing as unbiased.

Darth Viscera

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:17:06 PM

Truth.

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:17:08 PM

Originally posted by ReaperFett
There's no such thing as unbiased.

Agreed. You can argue bias in almost any media institution. Unfortunately, the best you can do is get a consensus on an issue.

CMJ

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:19:47 PM

Actually I consider MSNBC to be the most unbiased of all the major news outlets in the USA. They suit my tastes...not going too far left, and not swaying too much to the right.

That's just my opinion. Let it be known that I'm FOR this conflict. Just not with the zeal as some of the hawks on this board.

Living in the second largest city in the USA I must say I'm worried about retaliation as well.

ReaperFett

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:23:27 PM

I use BBC, but I wouldnt say they are unbiased.

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:28:14 PM

I check BBC, Guardian, Telegraph, CNN, Foxnews, Drudge, Le Monde, Die Welt, Washington Post, SF Chronicle, NY Times, as well as various other news sites in France, Australia, Estonia, Bulgaria, PUK-held Iraq, and others during the span of a week.

So its like eating a media hot dog.

Princess Sunflower

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:32:33 PM

This was emailed to me today and I thought I'd share it with all you fine folks:

Not My Problem!

(This is a very simplistic story, but a powerful message.)

A mouse looked through a crack in the wall to see the farmer and his wife opening a package; what food might it contain? He was aghast to discover that it was a mousetrap!

Retreating to the farmyard, the mouse proclaimed the warning,
"There is a mouse trap in the house, there is a mouse trap in the house."

The chicken clucked and scratched, raised her head and said,
"Mr. Mouse, I can tell you this is a grave concern to you, but it is of no consequence to me; I cannot be bothered by it."

The mouse turned to the pig and told him, "There is a mouse
trap in the house." "I am so very sorry Mr. Mouse," sympathized the pig, "but there is nothing I can do about it but pray; be assured that you are in my prayers."

The mouse turned to the cow, who replied, "Like wow, Mr. Mouse, a mouse trap; am I in grave danger, Duh?"

So the mouse returned to the house, head down and dejected to face the farmer's mouse trap alone.

That very night a sound was heard throughout the house, like
the sound of a mouse trap catching its prey. The farmer's wife rushed to see what was caught.

In the darkness, she did not see that it was a venomous snake whose tail the trap had caught.

The snake bit the farmer's wife and the farmer rushed her to the hospital.

She returned home with a fever. Now everyone knows you treat a fever with fresh chicken soup, so the farmer took his hatchet to the farmyard for the soup's main ingredient.

His wife's sickness continued so that friends and neighbors
came to sit with her around the clock. To feed them, the farmer butchered the pig.

The farmer's wife did not get well, in fact, she died, and so
many people came for her funeral the farmer had the cow slaughtered to provide meat for all of them to eat.

So the next time you hear that someone is facing a problem and think that it does not concern you, remember that when the least of us is threatened, we are all at risk.

And so it may be with Germany, France and Belgium one
day................................

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:39:57 PM

Originally posted by Princess Sunflower
This was emailed to me today and I thought I'd share it with all you fine folks:

Not My Problem!

Wrong. The intrinsic cause is not that France, Germany and one hell of a lot of people dont want to deal with Iraq - the mani problem is how the USA, UK and Australia have gone about the whole situation. As I posted much earlier, there is a deep unease about the hawkish behaviour and the rumble to war.

Frankly, as I've also said, the USA only had to play their cards soemwhat differently and they would already be in Bagdad with little protest.

Think about it.

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:45:08 PM

But think of it this way...if the problem with the situation is due to theatrics instead of level-headed consideration, then isn't that just a LITTLE snafu of priorities? I'll agree that alot had to to with theatrics and presentation. Is Rumsfeld a blunt rube? Yes, please get him away from a podium, I agree 100%. Is Homeland Security lame? YES! ARG! KILL IT! But if we're going to go over an issue, and have to play drama queen politics with the French in particular, who lost a hegemony play, then doesn't that seem to be a ridiculous impediment?

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 06:59:35 PM

Frankly, as I've also said, the USA only had to play their cards soemwhat differently and they would already be in Bagdad with little protest.

Even from the french. They're not the idiots you make them out to be

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/20/1047749857283.html

Looks like it's begun

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 07:04:00 PM

They're not the idiots you make them out to be

The French government aren't stupid. They know what they're doing, and its insipid, dastardly, and two-faced. Now, its blown up in their face, and they want to hang onto those fat Iraq business deals ;)

Anyways...time's up. Now, its a waiting game until the fighting starts. The last hope of Saddam fixing this mess is gone :\

Admiral Lebron

Mar 19th, 2003, 07:33:28 PM

We should drop a MOAB on a palace... show were not kidding around.

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 19th, 2003, 07:36:53 PM

I really don't see the point in the story everybody lost, besides using the case of the mouse to the USA is a bad comparison, mice are disgusting vermin and need to be kept out of houses, is that saying Americans are germ infested and are trying to invade peoples house.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 07:40:35 PM

Originally posted by Admiral Lebron
We should drop a MOAB on a palace... show were not kidding around.

Oh and the airplane hello on it's way is a just kidding??!?!?!

TheHolo.Net

Mar 19th, 2003, 07:42:24 PM

Originally posted by Marcus Elessar
Oh and the airplane hello on it's way is a just kidding??!?!?! It is most likely misinformation to confuse the Iraqis.

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 19th, 2003, 07:42:30 PM

lol and the the troops sitting on the Front door isn't either :rolleyes

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:06:15 PM

We should drop a MOAB on a palace... show were not kidding around.

Never breed.

Loki Ahmrah

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:09:42 PM

What's an MOAB?

Lilaena De'Ville

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:16:06 PM

A big bomb I think.

And I believe the mouse is in comparison to the Iraqis. Not Saddam, of course. The innocents.

Admiral Lebron

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:25:56 PM

MOAB = Mother of All Bombs.

Its is a conventional weapon that is equivilent in power to a hiroshima bomb.

Loki Ahmrah

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:31:21 PM

No comment. I wont assist in the digging of your own grave.

Admiral Lebron

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:32:58 PM

lol...

In all honesty, it probably wouldn't make people think much less of Americans.

Wei Wu Wei

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:33:13 PM

As much as the American foreign policy sucks, you have to admit, it is pretty simple. "Make us made and we bomb the crap out of you."

Don't you just love those easy to understand words? I mean, "Bomb the crap out of you" is practically universal! Even the the densest idiots can understand what is meant by that!

sirdizzy

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:39:52 PM

the thing is i am not anti-american nor anti troops, if i were to be drafted yes although idisagree with such a thing i would not be burning any draft cards

i just think it sad that someones defense against a disenting point of view is "you don't agree with me therefor your anti-american"

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:47:04 PM

Now go have folks call you a warmonger, and we've walked a mile in each other's shoes. ^_^;

Or even a Nazi! Ooooh American Baby-Killing Nazi. I need a cape to wear a title like that >D

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:47:46 PM

Originally posted by Admiral Lebron
lol...

In all honesty, it probably wouldn't make people think much less of Americans.

/Diplomatic mode off

(Hey, bet your surpirsed I had one right?)

All I have to do to get my opinion lowered of Americans is read your posts Lebron. For the love of Mike, will you please think before posting?

/diplomatic mode on

While I'm very much against the Government on this issue, I'll support the troops. It's not their fault they have been ordered in. It's not their fault all this happened. I just hope my neigbours come home

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:49:06 PM

Ari Flicher has just spoken

"The first steps to disarm the Iraq regime has begun"

Short, sweet, to the point.

News reports of anti aircraft fire in Bagdad. An address by George Bush at 10.15 pm Washingtom time. Yep, it seems it's on.

Wei Wu Wei

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:52:19 PM

Just the way I like it. :)

So, it begins. I suppose all that is left to do is to just sit tight, huh?

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:52:41 PM

We just sent a Tomahawk against a target of opportunity.

Hmm...does Saddam take morning jogs?

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 08:54:09 PM

Originally posted by Wei Wu Wei
Just the way I like it. :)

So, it begins. I suppose all that is left to do is to just sit tight, huh?

Yes, that very much seems the case. All we can do now is just watch and see what happens.

Wei Wu Wei

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:01:50 PM

Woo...this will be a very difficult wait, eh? But it won't be forever. Though there is sorrow in the night, happiness comes with the morning.

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:04:45 PM

Though there is sorrow in the night, happiness comes with the morning.

On a completely unrelated note, I had to chase that post with a shot of pepto bismol. That sounds like a bad fortune cookie.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:05:20 PM

Originally posted by Wei Wu Wei
Woo...this will be a very difficult wait, eh? But it won't be forever. Though there is sorrow in the night, happiness comes with the morning.

For who? There's widows and orphans in Baghdad tonight.

From CNN and ABC, there's no wait to see. It's on in no uncertain manner. Anti aricraft fires, some explosions, sound of planes coming in. I suggest the next few hours will be big. The coalition is coming and it looks like a massive hammer has fallen

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:10:30 PM

Originally posted by Sanis Prent
We just sent a Tomahawk against a target of opportunity.

Hmm...does Saddam take morning jogs?

I think your right - just listenign to ABC, they are saying that it appears the USA have uncovered "senior Iraqi Govermnment figures" and took a shot at them.

Hang on George Bush is about to speak.....

imported_Eve

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:11:20 PM

Well I just wanna tell you all I luv ya (not in that way), and best to you all. If we die tomorrow... it was fun. Peace out.

Wei Wu Wei

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:17:12 PM

Love is not just a romantic thing between a botfriend and a girlfriend, or a husband and a wife. Love is also between friends, and family. I know how you feel, Eve. But it's not the end of the world yet.

imported_Eve

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:18:53 PM

I don't think it is.

Wei Wu Wei

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:19:42 PM

What is?

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:21:56 PM

Nothing really more that Bush saying that Iraqi troops are stationed in civilian areas and this wont be a short fight and they are using "Decisive force"

I do get the feeling this first strike will be big.

Wei Wu Wei

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:25:16 PM

Of course it will be big. Miyamoto Musashi descibed such a tactic as "Striking Down and Opponent in one Beat."

"...realizing when the poopnent has not yet determined what to do, you strike directly, as fast as possible."
--The Book of Five Rings

Admiral Lebron

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:32:18 PM

The Brits were running drills... over cities... on the brink of war. That is why there was anti-aircraft fire... It really makes you wonder.

Loki Ahmrah

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:39:26 PM

That first strike was unplanned, using Tohmahawk missiles against the "target of oppurtunity" which was indeed Sadam Hussein. The sources were said to be in a situation in which they could not remain and their information was reliable enough for US forces to conduct an unscheduled "decapitation mission". If they could do that and take out Hussein then this war could most definately be averted. The war itself hasn't yet begun, apparently troops in Kuwait haven't even begun moving north yet.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:43:00 PM

Originally posted by Loki Ahmrah
That first strike was unplanned, using Tohmahawk missiles against the "target of oppurtunity" which was indeed Sadam Hussein. The sources were said to be in a situation in which they could not remain and their information was reliable enough for US forces to conduct an unscheduled "decapitation mission". If they could do that and take out Hussein then this war could most definately be averted.

24 cruise missiles and a Stealth Fighter. They must have been sure someone big time was in the target area. By the sounds of it, US forces were not goign to act for another day, but this was somethign too good to pass up.

Admiral Lebron

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:43:05 PM

I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

Wei Wu Wei

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:45:44 PM

Whatever it takes, I suppose.

Admiral Lebron

Mar 19th, 2003, 09:46:13 PM

MOAB woulda worked more efficiently.

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 19th, 2003, 10:02:21 PM

I haven't watched a bit of it, it looks very boring, and I just am not interested in sitting around watching nothing but people talk and very fuzzy pictures. I won't watch it tomorrow either I guess I will hunt down to see where the NCAA games will be on I guess ESPN for Thursday and Friday, I think they will be on CBS for Saturday and Sunday. Maybe ESPN can show better coverage maybe even go around to the best games. I might have to hunt down a radio station on the internet to find the UConn game if I want to hear it though.

Morgan Evanar

Mar 19th, 2003, 10:04:56 PM

MOAB woulda worked more efficiently.

Sheesh. Lebron, go study military technology for a little bit and then speak, ok? Tohmahawks can be launched off the coast of California and hit a house in Utah. They're VERY powerful weapons, and can be very very accurate.

Wei Wu Wei

Mar 19th, 2003, 10:07:32 PM

The person with the most muscle doesn't always win. Playing smarter is more often than not much better an option than playing harder.

Admiral Lebron

Mar 19th, 2003, 10:10:32 PM

It was a joke... I feel I'm fairly upto date on American technology...

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 10:11:33 PM

Originally posted by Admiral Lebron
MOAB woulda worked more efficiently.

Shut up. Just.... shut up. Do you have have bloody idea how useless MOAB's are in a strike liek this? A slow moving C130 and pysicalyl thrown out the back of the aircraft. Firstly, the bloody plane is a sitting duck. Second, MOAB's are incredibly messy and only an idiot would try one of those in a urban area, with NO guarenttee of success.

Missiles guided by a F117 is about as surgical as you can get by air. It's a presice strike, not a lets turn Baghdad into a pancake

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 10:17:08 PM

:: Take my Department of Homeland Security Duct Tape and PUTS IT OVER LEBRON'S MOUTH ::

Tom Ridge, I misjudged you!

Morgan Evanar

Mar 19th, 2003, 10:36:00 PM

Originally posted by Sanis Prent
:: Take my Department of Homeland Security Duct Tape and PUTS IT OVER LEBRON'S MOUTH ::

Tom Ridge, I misjudged you! bwhaha HAHAHAHAHAHA! Thank you.

Anyway, 40 cruise missiles is the CNN count now. Carrier groups are getting fighters airborne.

Troops on the Kuwaiti border are still waiting for the green light.

I hope this is fast, and as casualty free as possible. =[

Wei Wu Wei

Mar 19th, 2003, 10:38:25 PM

You never know, Morgan. You never know. As I said before, all we can do is sit tight, and try to be patient. But I have a feeling that all this will be over before we know it.

CMJ

Mar 19th, 2003, 10:39:30 PM

When we go, it'll be quick and fast. I expect this to be very decisive.

Then we need the UN to help us in setting up a new Iraqi government. We can't do it by ourselves, and it would help smooth over *some* resentment.

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 10:54:31 PM

Ahhh...I love the smell of Baghdad in the morning. I'm spent. All done here. France, sort this crap and clean my jockstrap. I'm duckin out to take a piss.

/Rumsfeld

:)

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 19th, 2003, 11:44:50 PM

Now Hussein is speaking - this guy does not sound truly coherent. He's rambling. The basics are easy to get, but this is some strange choice of words.

I almost think he's either in shock or that missile attack got someone he did nt want to lose.

Sanis Prent

Mar 19th, 2003, 11:56:10 PM

<img src=http://www.panic.hopto.org/swf/charley/obiluke.jpg>

Saddam is catchy :)

I almost think he's either in shock or that missile attack got someone he did nt want to lose.

or.....the announcement was a pre-empted tape. Notice no details were given in the speech. Nothing to guarantee that it happened after the attack.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 20th, 2003, 12:50:49 AM

Stop with the juvenile PS stuff. It's no longer funny and it's old hat.

or.....the announcement was a pre-empted tape. Notice no details were given in the speech. Nothing to guarantee that it happened after the attack.

Now that's something we should be discussing. I can agree with that and it's already been pointed out. Suspiciously few details in this ramble. which makes me wonder, did they get someone? Or has this blatant assasination attempt scared him? It's certainly not the real start of the war so..... I see two things. Either they got saddam or someone else up high, Saddam is dead or injured. That means Iraq's leadership is in turmoil, fast surrender. OR, saddam is alive, is spooked and goes into deep hiding. War will most likely go for longer.

whatever the outcome, this also has a good political outcome. It makes it look like the USA real target is Saddam, who everyone agrees needs to be belted. Good move, even if it was done on the fly.

Figrin D'an

Mar 20th, 2003, 12:56:45 AM

As much as I would love for Saddam to be taken alive and tried for war crimes and human rights violations, one can't really fault using the intel about his location (a quite exposed one, to be sure) to plant a surgical strike on him. It certainly does send a very powerful message that they're serious about taking him out this time, one way or the other...

Sanis Prent

Mar 20th, 2003, 01:17:04 AM

Originally posted by Marcus Elessar
Stop with the juvenile PS stuff. It's no longer funny and it's old hat.

I think I will continue, instead...as the muse permits me.

RAWR VETO

/france

Lann Kirauc

Mar 20th, 2003, 01:38:21 AM

Originally posted by Figrin D'an
As much as I would love for Saddam to be taken alive and tried for war crimes and human rights violations, one can't really fault using the intel about his location (a quite exposed one, to be sure) to plant a surgical strike on him. It certainly does send a very powerful message that they're serious about taking him out this time, one way or the other...

No, I just want him taken out by an airstrike or whatever. Plus his two psycho sons, Odai and Qusai, need to go also.

Odai is a member of parliment. And heads a popular newspaper, Babil and a popular Youth TV channel. He also heads the National Olympic Committee which is being investigated on allegations of Athlete torture and using the committee to duck UN Sanctions. Founded the Fedayeen in 1995, a paramilitary force consisting of 30,000 that is outside the control of the Republican Guard. A regime used to oppress internal opposition.

Qusai supervises the Republican Guard, the Directorate of Intelligence, Military Intelligence and National Security Council. Head of Amn al'Khass, the intelligence unit tasked with surveillance of key military and intelligence personnel. And has long been in charge of his father's personal security. Studied law and married a daughter of a senior military commander. Since 2000, he also has been in charge of the army branch of the Baath party, meaning virtually all the army's movements were under his supervision. In his capacity as head of the special Intel service, he is in charge of some of the notorious dentetion centers. Iraqi dissidents who worked close to Qusai Hussein charge that he was responsible for killing many political activists.

Also one of them is reported as enjoying the torture of people, and is infamous for raping both women and men.

(note - this information was collected from various articles)

Lann Kirauc

Mar 20th, 2003, 01:57:38 AM

More horrors of Qusai Hussein

The London Sunday Times reported that Qusai Hussein ordered the killing of Khalis Mohson al-Tikriti, an engineer at the military industrilization organization, on suspicion he was planning to leave Iraq.

In 1998, Iraqi opposition and human rights groups accused Qusai Hussein of ordering the executions of thousands of political prisoners after hundreds of inmates were summarily executed to make room for new prisoners in crowded jails.

(taken from a newspaper article)

Figrin D'an

Mar 20th, 2003, 01:57:46 AM

Those kind of things are the very reason why, if it is possible, Saddam and his sons should be taken alive and put on trial for crimes against humanity. The world needs to be reminded of just what has taken place during Hussein's rule, and have it exposed for all to see. Death is too easy a way out given the atrocities that have been overseen by this man.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 20th, 2003, 02:05:05 AM

Just listening to the news, 36 tohmahawk missiles and two F117's with 2,000 lb bunker busters hit one target believed to have 5 figures of signifigance

Wow. As well as the size of the attack, this I believe was a realyl good move - unexpected and politically good looking. Still.. 36 missiles at one target! I bet there's nothing left at the area.

Figrin D'an

Mar 20th, 2003, 02:20:45 AM

Originally posted by Marcus Elessar
Just listening to the news, 36 tohmahawk missiles and two F117's with 2,000 lb bunker busters hit one target believed to have 5 figures of signifigance

Wow. As well as the size of the attack, this I believe was a realyl good move - unexpected and politically good looking. Still.. 36 missiles at one target! I bet there's nothing left at the area.

Yeah, a retired general working as an analyst mentioned that, in that kind of situation, there would have been enough explosives used to level the entire complex. His exact words were, "If 18 buildings were shown to be on the site, then 18 buildings would have been destroyed." If you get a chance to hit something of that significance, you want to be sure you hit all of it...

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 20th, 2003, 02:29:58 AM

Making sure there was no escape. If there is a bunker under that complex, it's probably sealed off and anyone inside basically entombed. They must have been certain Hussein was there or at the least his top aides.

Wouldnt it be if Saddam has gotten otu alive from that one wouldnt he be on TV thumbing his nose? I dont know why, but I do have the feeling this strike has hit someone important.

Marcus Telcontar

Mar 20th, 2003, 02:37:21 AM

A blog from Iraq....

http://dearraed.blogspot.com/2003_03_01_dear_raed_archive.html#90955865

Darth Viscera

Mar 20th, 2003, 05:12:32 AM

Incoming Iraqi missiles towards Kuwait. This has been going on since about 10:30am. The Iraqis are harrassing the Kuwaitis and U.S. troops with this intermittent fire. Air raid sirens in Baghdad, Kuwait City and U.S. Army camps. Numerous bunker calls. No serious fire from Iraq yet.

ReaperFett

Mar 20th, 2003, 05:29:43 AM

Were the Scuds on the list of Weapons Iraq admitted to own?

Darth Viscera

Mar 20th, 2003, 05:32:00 AM

Nope.

Thanks Hans Blix. Useless!

Dutchy

Mar 20th, 2003, 06:34:50 AM

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
Nope.

Thanks Hans Blix. Useless!

Blix was required to produce a list of remaining disarmament tasks, one of which was: Present any Scud missiles and associated biological and chemical warheads or explain what happened to them.

Darth Viscera

Mar 20th, 2003, 06:50:03 AM

Yes, and now we're being hit by those SCUD missiles that Saddam doesn't have.

I wonder when the French are going to jump in and apologize frantically, or what excuses they'll make to avoid having to apologize.

Darth Viscera

Mar 20th, 2003, 06:56:38 AM

Apparently more bombs have been dropped in Iraq. Can't elaborate, little info.

Dutchy

Mar 20th, 2003, 07:06:51 AM

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
Yes, and now we're being hit by those SCUD missiles that Saddam doesn't have.

I wonder when the French are going to jump in and apologize frantically, or what excuses they'll make to avoid having to apologize.

Blix never said Saddam didn't have them. He said he needed more time to find that out. Time the French wanted to give him.

Jedieb

Mar 20th, 2003, 07:54:54 AM

This is an article from early Feb., but I think it bears re-reading now. The bill will never pass, but I wouldn't mind seeing the draft reinstated, without college exemptions. Especially if preemptive strikes are going to be part of our near future. Doesn't anyone else want to see Jon pulled out of college and sent to Basic Training? ;)

Playing the 'race card'
By Mark Shields
Creators Syndicate
Monday, February 10, 2003 Posted: 11:42 AM EST (1642 GMT)

WASHINGTON (Creators Syndicate) -- Rep. Charlie Rangel, D-New York, and Sen. Ernest "Fritz" Hollings, D-South Carolina, must be driving the right wing absolutely bananas.

Here is the story up to now: Rangel and Hollings have made a joint call to revive the military draft -- along with the admirable American tradition of the citizen-soldier -- because, in Hollings' words, most especially at a time of war "we must all shoulder the burden of defending our nation."

The Rangel-Hollings summons reminds us that, to name just a few, among those who answered their country's call to serve in uniform during World War II were all four of the president of the United States' sons, and future baseball Hall of Famers Hank Greenberg, Ted Williams, and Joe DiMaggio, along with heavyweight boxing champion Joe Louis, and Hollywood's Clark Gable, Jimmy Stewart, Kirk Douglas and Mel Brooks.

Future American leaders Gerald Ford, John Kennedy, Barry Goldwater, Richard Nixon, George McGovern and Dwight Eisenhower all served. The young sons of Massachusetts Republican Sen. Leverett Saltonstall, New York Democratic Gov. Herbert Lehman, former U.S. Ambassador to Great Britain Joseph Kennedy and FDR's closest political confidant, Harry Hopkins, were all killed in combat.

So apoplectic apparently are today's conservative opponents over any possible return to the draft that their preferred line of argument is to go nuclear and unfairly accuse Rangel and Hollings, as former Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger did in The Wall Street Journal, of "attempting to play both the race and the class-warfare cards."

That dog simply won't hunt. Yes, according to the Defense Department's own figures, African Americans, who comprise only 12 percent of the total civilian population, do account for nearly 30 percent of Army enlistees. But race is the straw man that opponents of the draft -- not Rangel and Hollings -- have raised. What the two Democrats have confronted and spotlighted is that dirty little ugly secret of American life that is avoided in polite and prosperous circles: class.

Combat veterans Rangel and Hollings both understand that today's U.S. military is the nation's public institution most integrated by race and -- simultaneously -- most segregated by class.

The result is a military that is the total opposite of that which won World War II: the sons of the nation's most affluent and most influential families are overwhelmingly missing from the enlisted ranks of the military. The most privileged are woefully underrepresented, particularly in the enlisted ranks.

As Rangel rightly pointed out on the "Today" show, when the nation does go to war, "more poor whites, especially from the rural areas, will be put in harm's way."

Hollings puts the case this way: "It is not the army that fights a war; it is the country that fights a war." Hollings painfully remembers Vietnam, when no sacrifices were asked of civilians on the home front, while millions of young Americans were sent to fight -- and 58,135 were sent to die -- in the jungles of Southeast Asia.

Conservatives (and liberals) who worship the all-volunteer military must concede that something is now profoundly wrong in this democratic society of ours when the most privileged and advantaged classes overwhelmingly choose -- when combat is all but certain -- to go AWOL.

Not once -- not to the students at his alma mater, Yale, not to any gathering of the College Republicans, nor the young business leaders -- has President George W. Bush publicly ever urged, asked or even suggested to anyone that any one of them serve his or her nation by enlisting in the military.

Because the message from the commander in chief continues to be that, here at home, we, civilians, will pay no price, we will bear no burden, and that any conflict will be essentially ouchless, painless and costless, the United States is today spiritually, emotionally and civicly unprepared for war.

For forcing us to confront, however briefly and however reluctantly, the real class divide in our society over who shoulders the burden of sacrifice -- and who avoids and evades any possibility of sacrifice -- Charlie Rangel and "Fritz" Hollings are doing their nation and their fellow citizens an important and valuable service.

CMJ

Mar 20th, 2003, 09:11:29 AM

Jedieb, that public slam at Jonathan was a bit unprovoked.

JonathanLB

Mar 20th, 2003, 09:12:07 AM

"Doesn't anyone else want to see Jon pulled out of college and sent to Basic Training?"

Not bloodly likely! You pulled me out of my lurker mode, darn you, do not utter my name (remember Jedi3167, **** I said it! He's going to be back). Grrr... but I had to respond to that. :D

I like lurking, it's fun. I can watch you guys debate back and forth without worrying about getting flamed or anything. NOW I know why some countries like remaining neutral -- it's so easy!!! :angel

I could never do Basic Training, I'm in terrible shape now. Blah. I do hope to get into great shape here shortly after college (I'm saying I will, not just some abstract "hope" for it, I promise), but right now, no. I couldn't make it a day there, haha.

Actually just today I went to the Office of the Registrar to have them elevate my maximum hours from 19 to 20. The university standard policy says you can only take 19 hours of credits in a term, but you can apply for exceptions. In my case, because of my grades and my standing, I did not have to fill out any forms, but rather she was able just to move my max hours up on the computer without any paperwork (phew, saves me time).

Anyway so I'm taking a whopping 20 credits next term!

If I do the following, then I graduate in 8 terms and 1 semester (just more than 3 years of actual college):

19 credits fall 2003, 19 credits winter 2004, 19 credits spring 2004, 18 credits fall 2004, 17 credits winter 2005, and 16 special project credits for my books and writing (this *should* be easy -- I could get that many right now if I wanted to be cheap, but I'm not going to be).

I don't think I'm honestly going to try for that, but basically I'm going to pretend as though I am and make a judgment call half-way through whether to break course or stay the course. I'll take 19 credits fall term for sure, then I will probably take 18 winter term, but if that goes well, I could up again to 19 spring term and just work the extra credit in the next year and go for finishing early, in which case I'd take 18 months off following college to finish my film studies before I go to film school.

Sigil Roland

Mar 20th, 2003, 10:05:44 AM

First off news....

1) Two oil wells on fire in Iraq

2) Turkey opened up it's airspace for the military to use.

Now a quick commentary

I could never do Basic Training, I'm in terrible shape now. Blah. I do hope to get into great shape here shortly after college (I'm saying I will, not just some abstract "hope" for it, I promise), but right now, no. I couldn't make it a day there, haha.

That little paragraph right there makes me mad. I hate that people who don't want to do anything say that they can't make it because their out of shape, or other excuses like that. Heck just going to basic training will get you into shape.

The moral is never sell yourself short, always go for the gold.

JonathanLB

Mar 20th, 2003, 10:28:29 AM

I can do anything (within human reason) that I choose to do, but I do not choose to be in good shape because it takes time away from my primary objectives.

My primary objective is to study film and my secondary objective is to get a college degree while doing so. A tertiary objective may be to have a published book by the end of this period. Getting in shape, getting a girlfriend, or making movies are not objectives that are in my plans for the near future and I don't choose to focus on any of them because of limitations in time and the reality that one can only achieve certain goals at certain times.

When I finish college and I have finished the primary scope of my film studies (although I will, as a film enthusiast, always be studying more film of course), then my first objective will change to making movies and a secondary objective might be getting into great shape or whatnot. So you misunderstand me if you think I am saying I cannot do something. I choose not to do something.

There has never been anything I've been unable to do that I truly wanted to do. Where I put my time into something, the results have been excellent. If the results were not good, it means I didn't continue with the pursuit long enough and probably felt it wasn't worthwhile (online business -- I diverted my time into film studies instead, choosing to switch my goals around).

Jedieb

Mar 20th, 2003, 11:52:02 AM

Not meant to be a slam, just an example. :angel

Like the article said, if service was good enough for the likes of "all four of the president of the United States' sons, and future baseball Hall of Famers Hank Greenberg, Ted Williams, and Joe DiMaggio, along with heavyweight boxing champion Joe Louis, and Hollywood's Clark Gable, Jimmy Stewart, Kirk Douglas and Mel Brooks. " then it's good enough for ANYONE Race, class, education, nothing should preclude anyone from service. Especially not how out of shape you are, after all, that's what BT is for. ;)

Sanis Prent

Mar 20th, 2003, 11:56:09 AM

While I'd personally like to finish my degree before signing up for reserve duty, I would not be opposed to such a thing. If my country called me to serve, I wouldn't hide behind my university.

ReaperFett

Mar 20th, 2003, 12:46:47 PM

Blix never said Saddam didn't have them. He said he needed more time to find that out. Time the French wanted to give him.
Iraq was meant to have listed what weapons they had. Those SCUDs werent there. Hence, they broke the rules. Where oh where is the UN?

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 20th, 2003, 01:00:22 PM

I am against the draft first, if you had I say you have higher numbers deserting then you had in Vietnam, the young today really wouldn't want to fight. Second, I don't think its necessary, I would only see it necessary if we were fighting some huge war like WW2, fortuntely or unfortuntely the next big war like WW2 or WW1 would be a nuclear one and a draft won't be an issue then.

ReaperFett

Mar 20th, 2003, 01:04:41 PM

Yeah, if there was need for a draft this time, there's be serious problems.

YubYubEb

Mar 20th, 2003, 01:12:02 PM

Joining the Reserves wouldn't stop anyone from being a full time college student. There's a little thing called the Split Option program. The summer after HS you attend BT. Then you attend your Fall and Spring semesters. The next summer you learn your MOS at AIT. During your college semesters you attend your monthly drills with your Reserve unit. Every summer after that you fulfill your 2 week Active Duty requirement. See, you don't have to miss any time at college. Unless you get called up of course.

At least, that's what I've heard... yubyub

YubYubEb

Mar 20th, 2003, 01:14:00 PM

One of the reasons I'm for a draft is that a volunteer force insulates far too many people from the dangers and horrors of war. The burden should be shared more equitably.

yub yub

JonathanLB

Mar 20th, 2003, 01:27:18 PM

There is no need for the draft, honestly. We have PLENTY of great troops, a lot of good guys serving our country and they do a great job. We don't need anyone who doesn't volunteer.

You wouldn't see me in combat, let's put it that way. Not everyone should be expected to do every type of thing. I have no interest in fighting anyone.

I don't believe in an afterlife -- so I'm not risking the one life I got for nothin'

JMK

Mar 20th, 2003, 01:29:54 PM

What if the forces of evil in the world came and tried to take it from you? They don't care what you have planned for your life, they just want you to die. Would you fight them then?

Sanis Prent

Mar 20th, 2003, 01:33:59 PM

Eb, I'm a senior. I might as well ride out this last year and get my degree, instead of interrupting it.

JonathanLB

Mar 20th, 2003, 01:39:46 PM

As I said, I wouldn't risk my life for nothing, and Iraq is nothing to me. Although I support the war, let the volunteers fight it.

It'd be a different story, however, if someone attacked us and our freedom was seriously threatened. Then I'd get my butt down to recruiting and ask where to sign! This country is worth defending and worth fighting for, but to me, it isn't worth dying for in a war that isn't of utmost importance. That is not to say I am against the Iraq war, but mainly that I would have been more inclined to go fight in Afghanistan, that's all. I am not threatened by Iraq directly, but this is an indirectly advisable action because of the potential for Iraq to sell weapons of mass destruction or other ordances to terrorists and whatnot.

I guess for me, it would have to be something where I personally felt threatened. Let's say it was Iraq that was responsible for 9/11 and admitted it right away, that'd make me a lot more warm to the idea of kickin' some Iraqi booty.

Nonetheless, there is a reason why our system works as it does. I've been lurking and don't want to get involved in all the controversy here, but honestly, you guys know what happens when the smart people fight along side the dumb ones -- they all die and the world loses its talent, like in World War I and World War II. Europe has never recovered. Both were horrible wars and if you look at the damage, that's why their film industries over there got behind, mainly in France, Germany, and Russia (not in Europe, I realize, lol).

If you make the Harvard and Yale kids go fight with the high school dropouts, this is a SERIOUS problem. You will lose not just lives, but the future of the country, and you cannot have people meant to use their minds using their fists instead. It doesn't make logical sense. They aren't combat ready, they ARE a value to the intellectual infrastructure and thus the freedom of this country, and if they don't want to fight, that's going to reflect in the results and outcome of the war. Not a good situation.

Vietnam was not a war fought by the elite Americans or even the middle class Americans. It was fought by the poor white Americans and minorities, indeed. Is that a problem? Well, I don't know what you define as a problem. I think it would be a problem to lose our best and brightest, personally. Our leaders of the future must not die in combat.