War is Imminent

[Jedi Master Carr]

If we tried to invade I think we would of course that would be under some lunitic and would probably be armagendon so that wouldn't be something I hope ever happens.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Sanis Prent
Don't know what you're smoking, Dutchy...but with chemical detectors and geiger counters pinging off the charts in various places, I think its retarded to assume that so early. Considering that they've uncovered a yellowcake facility, a hard water storage facility, various bunkers that may contain weapons-grade plutonium, and a few more bunkers with the kind of arty warheads that can be filled with aerosolized agents, I would consider you to be uninformed on the issue.

So far they haven't found anything or enough that justifies this war.

[CMJ]

The reaction of the Iraqi people make this war justified.

[Sanis Prent]

If the possible WMDs and/or cesspool of human rights atrocities uncovered isn't enough to justify, you can kindly jump off a cliff. I have no time for people who are in such craptastic cases of denial. Is your last name al Sahaf?

Edit: Oh yeah, on top of that...the stratospheric elation of practically the entire country. Unjustified!

[Dutchy]

What countries are next on your war list?

[Dutchy]

BTW, good argument, about that cliff.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Dutchy
What countries are next on your war list?

The Kingdom of the Netherlands, lest Balkenende agrees to extradite a certain dutchman who's apparently slaved his visual acuity to his off-the-wall political beliefs!

Edit-And did I mention that your prime minister resembles Harry Potter? Aaaa-ha! :mneh

[Sanis Prent]

I hear Holland's nice and vulnerable to airborne assault. Twice in the same war? That sounds about right.

My apologies. There aren't many cliffs in Holland tho.

<img src=http://www.panic.hopto.org/swf/charley/strangelove.jpg>

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
The Kingdom of the Netherlands, lest Balkenende agrees to extradite a certain dutchman who's apparently slaved his visual acuity to his off-the-wall political beliefs!

Stuff I post here are not necessarily my political beliefs. I like to provoke discussions. :)


Edit-And did I mention that your prime minister resembles Harry Potter? Aaaa-ha! :mneh

If you haven't mentioned it yet, you're the last one who hasn't. :p

[Admiral Lebron]

They found a warhead with nerve agent in it...

[Diego Van Derveld]

You're a little late to the party there, Leb.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Hey there is nothing wrong with Harry Potter :p As far as this war being justified I don't know the book is not done on that if in 10 years their is another dicataor in power in Iraq or if this war brings out more muslim Extremism than I say its a falilure.

[Darth Viscera]

And if in 10 years Iraq has become a better nation than it was in the 1979-2003 period, then I say it's a success.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Sure if that happens I agree.

[CMJ]

You know I actually feel I lean a bit left of center on the political spectrum(or maybe straight on I'm really in the middle) but gee whiz some of you folks really suffer from "The sky is falling" syndrome. :p

[Darth Viscera]

that's liberals for ya.

[Sanis Prent]

<a href=http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,6119,2-10-1460_1338708,00.html>Silly Scott Ritter!</a> :lol

Honestly, how much credibility can one person try to lose?

[Figrin D'an]

*Reads article.*

Ummm...

o_O

yeah...

So, all that Republican Guard resistance in Baghdad sure is something, huh? :rolleyes

I'd love to listen to a conversation between him and MSS.

[Commander Zemil Vymes]

He was in an interview yesterday, arguing with one of his colleagues from the 98 UN All-stars :rolleyes...and unrepentantly critical to the last. I'm inclined to agree with nearly the entire contingent of 1998 UN inspectors when they say that they were hamstrung by Iraq, and inspections there had the effect of sticking a finger in a glass of water...the moment you remove your finger, its the same as if you'd never put it there in the first place. When the Baath government actually has a counterintelligence group designed to thwart weapon inspections, then its pretty obvious that cooperation is not in effect.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Richard Butler, head of weapons inspections in the 90's is convinced Iraq has WMD.

And that article? AIE, that guy is a moron!

[Sanis Prent]

Yep. Butler was another one of the guys sounding off about the issue. He was pretty adamant about what he thought.

[Darth Viscera]

The title "Child Molester" should precede Scott Ritter wherever he goes, but that would be an insult to the comparitively moralistic child molesters. I hate that bastard with a passion.

[Princess Sunflower]

YES!!!!

7 American POWS found ALIVE!!!!!

[JMK]

That's great news! How many POW's are there supposed to be?

[Princess Sunflower]

Only 7 were listed as POW's. That leaves 6 classified as "whereabouts unknown".

2 of the POW's families have not been officially notified yet because there is a process that has to be followed to positively identify a POW that includes providing their dogtags or paperwork they had on them to provide identification.

[Dutchy]

If they wouldn't have sent them, they wouldn't have become POW's either.

Glad they were found alive, though, of course!

[Sanis Prent]

Navy pilot whose status was "Whereabouts Unknown" now KIA

[Sanis Prent]

Originally posted by Dutchy
If they wouldn't have sent them, they wouldn't have become POW's either.

Hey, can you abstain from being a prick for a day plz?

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Sanis Prent
Hey, can you abstain from being a prick for a day plz?

Your arguments get better by the day. Keep up the good work!

[Princess Sunflower]

Yea....Dutchy..that was a little over the top.

:spank

It was so heartwarming to see the family of Shoshanna Johnson's family hugging and kissing in their doorways. I think they express the feeling of just about all of us today as the fighting seems to be winding down.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Princess Sunflower
Yea....Dutchy..that was a little over the top.

:spank

It was so heartwarming to see the family of Shoshanna Johnson's family hugging and kissing in their doorways. I think they express the feeling of just about all of us today as the fighting seems to be winding down.

I don't think it expresses the feeling of the Iraqi people who have their loved ones killed in this war.

A war is not exactly about families hugging and kissing in their doorways.

[CMJ]

The Iraqi people celebrating the removal of Saddam obviously means nothing to you Dutchy. :rolleyes

[Princess Sunflower]

The Iraqi civilians were not killed on purpose. We are not targeting them. Our POW's were captured against their will and tortured and managed to make it out alive.

I guess any relative of yours who might be in the military fighting for your country and arrives home safely should not expect to receive any warm welcomes from you then? I would find that very sad.

[Darth Viscera]

Dutchy, you really need to learn the difference between provoking discussions and being a walking, talking piece of flamebait.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by CMJ
The Iraqi people celebrating the removal of Saddam obviously means nothing to you Dutchy. :rolleyes

|
v


Originally posted by Dutchy
April 9th, 2003. An historical day. Some of the images gave me chills.


Originally posted by Princess Sunflower
I guess any relative of yours who might be in the military fighting for your country and arrives home safely should not expect to receive any warm welcomes from you then? I would find that very sad.

|
v


Originally posted by Dutchy
Glad they were found alive, though, of course!

Oh, and keep my relatives out of this, please.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
Dutchy, you really need to learn the difference between provoking discussions and being a walking, talking piece of flamebait.

Yeah, I guess we should follow Sanis Prent's example and tell our fellow debaters to jump of a cliff.

[Princess Sunflower]

Sorry.. it wasn't meant to be personal but you are coming across very coldhearted.

[Princess Sunflower]

quote:
Originally posted by Dutchy
Glad they were found alive, though, of course!

Then stop talking out of both ends of your mouth...either you're glad they were found alive or your not...

[Dutchy]

Of course I'm happy for the POW's families! And of course I find it percectly normal the way their families react.

I wanted to put it in perspective, though.

[Sanis Prent]

I did apologize, as I remembered there are no cliffs in Holland. If you can find a more expedient way of making sure you never breed, I'm all ears!

[Dutchy]

You're such a great debater, Sanis Prent. I can only wish I could come up with such great arguments. You're a true role modal. I can see why they made you a moderator here.

[Sanis Prent]

When I'm arguing with you, you'll know. As you yourself are admittedly not even attempting to argue, and trying to be a sensationalist attention whore, you'll get the appropriate response.

[Dutchy]

Okay, thanks for proving my point. :)

[Admiral Lebron]

I wish I could be a sensationalist attention whore. :(

[Sanis Prent]

Prove what? That you yourself aren't even trying to put forth an argument of any kind? Are you that intellectually masochistic? If you see a bunch of people staring at the sky and going "Ooh, so blue", do you run up to them and flap your arms like a rabid chicken and go "ORANGE! ORANGE!" Cause thats essentially what you're doing here, and have done for months, and try to pass it off like you're being witty, or having any kind of coherent thought. Being different isn't a guarantee that you're bringing a refreshing view to the table. It just means that you're different.

That insults the intelligence of pretty much every other person in this thread.

[Admiral Lebron]

So now you're saying I am smart? :mad

[Figrin D'an]

Even moderators and administrators have opinions, Dutchy. He's not arguing/debating as a mod in this instance. He's doing so as a member of the board, just like everyone else.


In the immortal words of Samuel Clemons:

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

Something some people in this thread may want to take to heart.

[Darth Viscera]

Saddam's 'love shack' discovered (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/14/sprj.irq.saddam.hideaway/index.html)

Yeah, baaabeee

[JMK]

Can anyone picture Saddam on a spinning bed trying to seduce women in his Austin Powers velvet suit? :lol

[Charley]

Or the Dark Lord, Satan.

Heyyyyyyyyyy....SATAN!

I can change, I can change!
I can learn to keep my promises, I swear it!
I'll open up my heart and I will share it
Any minute now I will be born again!

Yes I can change, I can change!
I know I've been a dirty little bastard!
I like to kill I like to maim
YES ITS OKAY I'M INSANE BUT I CAN CHANGE!

[Dutchy]

Ah, well, phukkit. :)

[JediBoricua]

Well it seems now war is imminent for Syria....:rolleyes


Will this ever stop? How is the US going to justify this one?

[Charley]

Considering that Syria has been an active terror sponsor for a while...I don't see the problem with applying pressure there.

[Darth Viscera]

We've got to rearm the Iraqi army and send them into Damascus to topple the Ba'th government there, with Coalition and covert Mossad support, all the while having the IDF kick their "peacekeepers" out of Lebanon. Okay, so that's a bit of a fantasy outlook on it, but I'm not sure how the Syrian people would treat our troops.

Ba'th party! If I had known those Nazi trash controlled Syria, I would have been gung-ho about a Syrian conflict from the start.

I'm weary about leaving another Saddam Hussein in power for another 12 years.

[Wei Wu Wei]

So, it's still not over, huh? Pff. This is going to be interesting. I just hope we don't get cocky. Iraq was an easy victory, but later on down the road we might not be as lucky.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Wei Wu Wei
So, it's still not over, huh? Pff.

Don't worry wei, we'll wake you up when all the terrorist states have capitulated.

[CMJ]

I'm not sure we should go after Syria just yet. It's gonna be a big enough deal rebuilding Iraq for now. Let's not get too hasty elsewhere.

[Charley]

There are still plenty of other avenues of approach we can use against Syria. The reason we hit Iraq was due to such alternatives being tried and failing.

[Wei Wu Wei]

Don't worry wei, we'll wake you up when all the terrorist states have capitulated.

Thanks, Vis. This whole war thing is getting to be like a broken record. Bush can do what needs to be done, but it's all been heard before. Last 3 times I saw the news, they were still playing the same footage they were showing the day before.

[Dutchy]

Bush and Chirac are on speaking terms again. That is, they've spoken with each other again. :)

[Charley]

Chirac: (sob) I am so sorry monsieur, I was wrong.

Bush: Shucks, its alright buddy. Just remember, you owe me 200 bucks and a go with the vietnamese hooker on the mechanical bull...WOO!

[Darth Viscera]

WTF!

[Charley]

If you think for one second that he wouldn't...you're nuts :)

[Darth Viscera]

I just have no idea where you got that from. Mechanical bull? Did I miss a skit or something?

[Charley]

Work with me, kid! You used to live in Texas! You mean to tell me you never got liquored up and went down to the honky tonk to ride the mechanical bull?

[Marcus Telcontar]

Well, another bit of USA porpaganda came proven today. The terrorist who hijacked the cruise liner in 1984 was caught in Baghdad, with evidence the regime was indeed sheltering him. So, it wasnt Al Quada, but Iraq was indeed harbouring terrorist - cant deny that when they caught a big name like him.

Just wish they would find the WMD. I'm sure they are there, just hurry up and show them off.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Work with me, kid! You used to live in Texas! You mean to tell me you never got liquored up and went down to the honky tonk to ride the mechanical bull?

Liquored up....you mean when I was 7 years old?

I remember the Nabisco factory, if that's any help.

[Dutchy]

Clinton blasts US approach to international affairs
NEW YORK (AFP) - Former US President Bill Clinton (news - web sites) blasted US foreign policy adopted in the wake of the September 11 attacks, arguing the United States cannot kill, jail or occupy all of its adversaries.

"Our paradigm now seems to be: something terrible happened to us on September 11, and that gives us the right to interpret all future events in a way that everyone else in the world must agree with us," said Clinton, who spoke at a seminar of governance organized by Conference Board (news - web sites).


"And if they don't, they can go straight to hell."

The Democratic former president, who preceded George W. Bush at the White House, said that sooner or later the United States had to find a way to cooperate with the world at large.

"We can't run," Clinton pointed out. "If you got an interdependent world, and you cannot kill, jail or occupy all your adversaries, sooner or later you have to make a deal."

He said he believed Washington overreacted to German and French opposition to US plans for military action against Iraq (news - web sites) and suggested that the current administration had trouble juggling foreign and domestic issues.

"Since September 11, it looks like we can't hold two guns at the same time," Clinton said. "If you fight terrorism, you can't make America a better place to be."



Clinton rules!

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by Dutchy
Clinton rules!

Heh, least Slick Willy didnt scare us in the way some in the current Bush Admin scare us. I'm understanding why Europe preferred the days of Clinton to either Bush administration now.

[Darth Viscera]

Perhaps they enjoyed those days as much as Kim Jong Il did, but they were still up to no good, funneling all those recently-discovered WMDs to everyone who had a penchant for dead americans and israelis.

Henry Kissinger would be spinning in his grave if he knew how they've abused our friendship-he practically said so the other day on FNL after remarking on how he had been building up that friendship since the 40's.

I prefer the days of this administration to that of the Clinton era. At least we now know that some of Europe is relentlessly trying to kill us and so we will retaliate economically accordingly.

[Marcus Telcontar]

I prefer the days of this administration to that of the Clinton era. At least we now know that some of Europe is relentlessly trying to kill us and will retaliate economically accordingly.

Riiiigggghhhhhhtttttt


Heh, least Slick Willy didnt scare us in the way some in the current Bush Admin scare us

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
At least we now know that some of Europe is relentlessly trying to kill us and will retaliate economically accordingly.

WTF?

[Darth Viscera]

Don't be daft. When the French and the Russians ship illegal arms & WMDs & maskirovka equipment to Iraq and other middle eastern countries, do you expect that they're doing so in order to save american lives?

Wake up and smell the hostiles.

[Charley]

In not-so-harsh words...France got caught with their pants down, trying to use the situation in Iraq as leverage to establish French-centered European hegemony.

[Darth Viscera]

And they don't care how many americans they have to kill to get that hegemony, because they intend on killing more of us when they have it.

I'd pay good money to see the look on Jacques Iraq's face if someone were to bring up the possibility of revoking France's permanent security council vote, the thing which they think is the source of all their wonderful french power. :rolleyes :lol

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
And they don't care how many americans they have to kill to get that hegemony, because they intend on killing more of us when they have it.

I'm glad you're joking. :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

The Europeans are not against the Us that is ludicrus they don't want to fight us why would they. Russia sold arms to anybody who wants them it seems it is because the country is nearly broke and people are starving to death. France well I don't think they sold any more arms to Iraq than we did and I think they were mostly against the US because of Ideological reasons. And about Henry Kissenger, it be pretty hard for him to spinning in his grave when he is still alive.

[Charley]

YOU CAN BE AGAINST SOMEBODY WITHOUT DECLARING WAR OUTRIGHT.

This seems to be a stubborn sticking point. Clarified.

And your assumptions on France = 100% False. They sold something like 20 times more weapons to Iraq than we have.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Dutchy
I'm glad you're joking. :)

I'm glad you're deluding yourself into thinking that I'm joking. :)


And about Henry Kissenger, it be pretty hard for him to spinning in his grave when he is still alive.

Straight from DUH Magazine. It was a joke.



Russia sold arms to anybody who wants them it seems it is because the country is nearly broke and people are starving to death.
Do you know how ridiculous this is? Do you think the Russian people believe that they can eat $8 billion in IOUs? They donated these weapons to Saddam Hussein, they knew that their debt would never be repayed. They donated highly sophisticated weapons to the cause of killing americans. The same with the french.

[Jedi Master Carr]

It sure sounded serious to me and I am sorry I don't see where it was funny. Also I don't think the Russians wanted to kill us, and I am sure they got some money for it I know they have sold a lot of arms to the black market to try to get out of debt.

[Charley]

Carr, the phrase "From Russia with love" is not a literal thing. Please read with all due sarcasm required.

I'm pretty sure most russians know that kalashnikovs fire bullets, instead of bubbles and rainbows.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
It sure sounded serious to me and I am sorry I don't see where it was funny.

Apology accepted.


Also I don't think the Russians wanted to kill us, and I am sure they got some money for it I know they have sold a lot of arms to the black market to try to get out of debt.

Why would they sell weapons to a nation that already owed them $8 billion, fully expecting no payment? Simple, they didn't. They donated them.

IF THE RUSSIANS DIDN'T WANT TO KILL US THEN THEY WOULDN'T HAVE GIVEN WEAPONS TO PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KILL US.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
I'm glad you're deluding yourself into thinking that I'm joking. :)

I was only hoping you were. :)

Europeans trying to kill Americans...my god, get out of your cave, man. :lol

[Darth Viscera]

@Dutchy


I'm pretty sure most russians know that kalashnikovs fire bullets, instead of bubbles and rainbows.

See above, apply it to the French.

[Dutchy]

Nevermind, it's useless. I'm really laughing out loud about your statements. :)

Okay, one try then:


They donated highly sophisticated weapons to the cause of killing americans. The same with the french

Please tell me you were joking here. :)

[Darth Viscera]

Any attempt at arguing with you on this point would obviously only be desultory. You've obviously been brainwashed by some sort of ultra-liberal pot puppy Nederlandish frazzlemigoo. It astonishes me that you can look at a pie made out of poison that's right in front of your nose and say it's a perfectly good apple pie, when people keep taking a bite out of it and falling down dead into pre-dug graves on the beaches of Normandy. The person who baked the poison pie and sent it to a murderer to serve is just as murderous as the person who serves it.

[Darth Viscera]

Looks like we beat two ducks with one stone south of Baghdad (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030416/ap_on_re_mi_ea/war_rdp_1313). We discovered a biological weapons plant that was ALSO used as a terrorist training camp. What a scoop!

[Dutchy]

Anyone who thinks Europe wants to kill Americans must have been eaten a lot of way over use by date pie. Even though I disagree on almost anything you've written in this thread, at least it sounded well thought off and you sound well informed. This statement of yours, though, is really ridiculous. I still hope you're joking.

BTW, WTF is a frazzlemigoo? :)

[Dutchy]

A pie for the anti-war camp (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=127&e=8&u=/ucru/how_we_lost_the_iraq_war).

[CMJ]

Yeah that was blatant propaganda Dutchy. I'd say that's as whacked out as Viscera's comments were...just to the other extreme.

God I hate extremists. :p

[Dutchy]

They're not my comments, don't shoot the messenger. It didn't seem like propaganda to me. Nice timing, though. :)

Anyway, glad you agree Viscera's comments are whacked out. :p

[CMJ]

I'm a moderate...loonies too far left or right scare me. I'm pretty sure that Op-Ed was written by a flaming liberal. Half of his "facts" were out of line with reports I've seen EVERYWHERE. It read like something I'd find in the LA Weekly which is about as far left as you can get.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by CMJ
loonies too far left or right scare me.

Same here.

And, believe it or not, in Holland I vote right. :)

[Dutchy]

BTW, kuddos to Viscera3167 for spelling Balkenende correctly!

[CMJ]

You vote right in Holland? Dear lord that country must be FAR left. ;)

[Marcus Telcontar]

Well, I'm a bit staggered by Vis' comemtns as well. Truly staggered, cause it's simply gone too far.

[Darth Viscera]

How have I gone too far? I'm stating the simple facts.


-The French and Russians arm the Iraqis with everything from AK-47s to Mirage fighter jets and nuclear reactors. Nearly every weapon in the Iraqi army is manufactured in Russia and shipped to Iraq, or to a limited extent manufactured in Iraq under Russian license.
-The Iraqis use this technology to try and kill Americans.


Draw your own conclusions if you must, but IMO it's proxy killing.

This isn't a controversial breakthrough, it's just an outrageously annoying fact. France is playing a weird, murderous game of Devil's Advocate by arming a nation with whom we engage in armed conflict.

Does someone want to step forward now and tell me where in this post I've stepped off into the right-wing extremist zone?

[Charley]

I think its a bit much as well....but not by a large margin at all. Anti-Americanism has been a dominating European sentiment for decades now, and has been instilled in an entire generation of European children.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I disagree but I give up arguing with guys it seems like a losing war, we can just agree to disagree I guess.

[Charley]

You can disagree all you want and it doesn't change the fact that children in France have been educated for two decades to identify America as an evil, imperialist and antidemocratic regime, bent on world domination.

And hell...that was 23 years ago!

<a href=http://www.xanga.com/item.asp?user=dissidentfrogman&tab=weblogs&uid=13352304>From manuals given to French schoolteachers by the French Ministry of Education, no less!</a>

As for insinuating that France has supplied 20 times as much weaponry to Iraq as America, I must apologize. Its actually only 13 times as much.

<img src=http://www.panic.hopto.org/swf/charley/saddamgraph.gif>

So you can disagree all you want. It isn't exactly an issue of debate.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am not going to argue any more I think I might just skip this thread for awhile.

[Admiral Lebron]

Did anyone else read non-sequitur today?



http://images.ucomics.com/comics/nq/2003/nq030416.gif

[Darth Viscera]

ROFL!

[Dutchy]

http://www.missoizo.com/humor/Irakfunny/images/irak4.gif

:p

[Darth Viscera]

.....

[JediBoricua]

Quoting Homer Simpson:

"Oh my that's good satire!"

[Charley]

Thats about as funny as Jar Jar. I can't even give an E for effort on that.

[Admiral Lebron]

Mine or his?

[Charley]

Dutchy's

[Dutchy]

Heh heh...

[JediBoricua]

Only right wing comics are funny Dutchy, didn't you know that!!!!




Seriously, both are funny, I always enjoy good political satire.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
Only right wing comics are funny Dutchy, didn't you know that!!!!


:D

[Keerrourri Feessaarro]

But that was terrible, irregardless of where I stand on the issue. Even if I thought that asinine viewpoint was correct (and it isn't), then the thing still has to be funny, which it sucks at. I've seen plenty of satirical comedy that went counter to what I believed in, and laughed at it nevertheless, because it was actually hilarious. That comic sucked a golf ball through a garden hose, and there is no redeeming funneh to it.

[Darth Viscera]

Not to mention the joke was fresh about 18 months ago, and we've heard it over and over and over.

[JediBoricua]

Anyway back on topic, sort of...

If Europeans want to kill americans by selling weapons to the Iraqis, then the Americans want to kill Palestinians by giving away weapons to the israeli army? Food for thought...

[Darth Viscera]

You have a point, but as I've stated before, I don't support the Israeli government's decision to use brutal tactics against the people of Palestine in their illegal Intifada (it's a violation of the Oslo peace accords). They should be following the U.S. example-a benign humanitarian invasion of Palestine, hand out aid, assist the Palestinian economy, set up a democratic government, then go back to Israel.

However, you're forgetting, perhaps purposefully, that we also send a significant amount of aid to Palestine.

[JediBoricua]

I know that but, correct me if I'm wrong, all the US send to Palestine is Humanitarian help, not weapons.

And I agree with you with the Palestine situation, but until Sharon is on power there is no way things could get better. Even after the Palestinians have had a change of leadership for the best the situation remains tense. It's a really sad situation, and that is the real cause for arabs disliking the US, it's not an invansion of Iraq, it's their unconditional support of Israel (although the president has been harsh to Sharon a couple of times, not near as hars as he was to other presidents and the military aid has kept on coming). In fact you could said Israel is the biggest US colony with over 20 billion of aid a year.

[Darth Viscera]

$20 billion/year? I'm not sure if that's true. Where do you get your data?

[JediBoricua]

It's a bit old. Three years old actually.

I don't remember where I got it, but I found and used the info for UN model on my senior year.

Later tonight if I have time I'll try and search for it.

[JediBoricua]

Ok my initial figure was way wrong, 17 billion wrong. I really don't know where I got the initial info.

Still, the aid sits around 3.1 billion a year, which comprises 1/6 of all US aid, compared to 100 million to the Palestine Authority. All the money given to Israel is in cash without any restriction on spending, while the Palestine money is heavily monitored by US agencies.

Since WW2 Israel has received around 91 billion dollars.

Source: http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/010201/0101015.html

[Charley]

What are the demographic numbers between Israel and Palestine?

[ReaperFett]

Considering that Syria has been an active terror sponsor for a while...I don't see the problem with applying pressure there.

Aside from the fact that the PR looks just GRAND in the middle east right?


At least we now know that some of Europe is relentlessly trying to kill us and so we will retaliate economically accordingly.
I lost brain cells reading that.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
I lost brain cells reading that.

:lol

[JediBoricua]

Israel
Pop: 6,258,093
US Aid per Capita: $495 (calculated by me)
GIP Per Capita: 16,310
Unemployment: 8.8%
Source: 2003 World Almanac by Editorial Televisa (they don't have specific info on Palestine)

Palestine
Pop: 2,895,683 (1997)
US Aid per Capita: $35 (calculated by me)
Unemployment: 38%
Source: http://www.pcbs.org/inside/selcts.htm

[Darth Viscera]

Palestine has only 2.9 million? I could have sworn it was 6 million. My bad.

I disagree that Israel is basically a U.S. colony. They nearly destroyed the U.S.S. Liberty and turned almost all hands into casualties when they thought the Destroyer was spying on them, and that it might uncover their plans for the 6-day war. This was only 11 years after we stopped them from waging the Suez Canal war. If they're a U.S. colony, then they are a wayward colony. IMO, our relationship with Israel is only a degree better than our relationship with the PRC (also noteworthy is the fact that Israel Defense Industries is one of the great military suppliers to the PRC). Sure, we're generous with them, but we still disapprove of many of the things that they do.


Originally posted by ReaperFett
I lost brain cells reading that.

I don't mind, so long as you lost the brain cells that read "France=benign". Consider yourself enlightened!

[Keerrourri Feessaarro]

I'd be alot more supportive of Palestine if they'd get their act together on some issues. I've lost all faith in Arafat as far as trying to be a good leader for his people. Even now, he's trying to coattail as much power as he can from the new PM. Its disturbing. The sooner they start acting like a nation instead of a group of thugs, the sooner they should get due compensation. Sometimes, I wish I could find the fool who assassinated Yitzhak Rabin and beat him with a shoe. He did so much to cripple Palestinian peace, that its just tragic.

[JediBoricua]

I was a bit shock with the Palestine pop. also. Maybe that site only has the Palestinians living inside their territories and ignores those in israeli territory and abroad.

About it being a US colony, yeah I understand your point, i'm just using that expression because it is the country that gets the most money from american tax payers, money that is directly used to destroy refugee camps and silence the palestinians and it's not regulated by US authorities. The US, when attacking Iraq, made clear it was not targetting civilians and did as much as it could to lower civilian casualties, the israeli army seems (key word here: seems, I want to believe they don't) to enjoy killing and maiming innocent people and destroying their homes. It is no problem for them to siege a complete refugee camp just to get 1 or 2 terrorist leaders.

Don't get me started on palestinian leadership, it can be and has been as bad as israeli leadership. It also seems it's a race of protagonism where it's leader are looking more for press coverage than liberation of their people.

The situation is a real mess, but I believe giving 3.1 billion a year to Israel unchecked only makes it worse.

[Sanis Prent]

I'm a big critic of how Israel is handling itself, but I won't even begin to put a member of the IDF in the same category as a Hamas suicide bomber. Not even in the same ballpark.

[Admiral Lebron]

I'm gonna try and keep quiet about this, tho I have strong opinions... I think that whoever says the suicide bombers act alone should be hit with a lemon. To produce the bombs, get inside of the walls, and mentally train yourself to do it isn't a one man thing. Arafat controls the Hamas bombers and exercises his use with them like any sick minded freak would.

[JediBoricua]

I really doubt that Lebron, I really do.

Of course they don't act alone, but do you believe that if Arafat really controlled the bombers he would have survived this long? Of course not. If the Israeli intel had the least bit of evidence Arafat was tied to Hamas he would have been shot years ago. Hamas gets funding and training from other sources, it could be Syria, Lebanon or Bin Laden himself. Hell some of those groups want Arafat dead, I do not know if some have tried to kill him, but they don't like the guy either.

[Sanis Prent]

Let it also be known that one of those Hamas fundraisers was Saddam Hussein.

[JediBoricua]

Precisely.

[Darth Viscera]

That 3 billion to Israel really pales in comparison to the 70 billion we annually donate to China's industrial growth. We're financing the economic birth of the world's most populous country. That's why the USA is so popular :p

Arafat is no angel, but he's no Bin Laden either. He's not a terrorist mastermind. The real Palestinian wackjob terrorists have tried many a time to assassinate him, which should tell you something.

That said, I can't wait for Arafat to get out of the way so we can see if we can get a bit more progress from this prime minister fellow. Until he's assassinated, that is.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
Until he's assassinated, that is.

That's my main concern, as well. It has been ever since Rabin was assassinated. Everytime either side gets a person into a power position, and can effect positive change, some wacko extremist will come out of the woodwork and kill him, thus stiffling everything that was accomplished..

It's set up to be a vicious cycle... it's so dishearting at times...

[JediBoricua]

That 3 billion to Israel really pales in comparison to the 70 billion we annually donate to China's industrial growth

True, but the 70 billion don't come directly from the government and taxpayers, but from coorporations and the such.

I agree on you with Arafat. You have been there 20+ years and have accomplished almost nothing, time to step down.

[Dutchy]

So, now Powell wants to punish France for their anti-war attitude? What's he going to do? Bring in a resolution to the UN that justifies a war against the French? :lol

[Darth Viscera]

ROFLMAO! OMG that is hilarious! :lol :lol :lol
*slaps knee, falls out of chair laughing*

[Darth Vader]

I think he'd rather punish them for being hegemonic hypocrites, who used the plight in Iraq to further their own European agenda, but thats just me I guess. I wonder if Chirac will tell us that we're missing a great opportunity to shut up. Such a charmer.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
ROFLMAO! OMG that is hilarious! :lol :lol :lol
*slaps knee, falls out of chair laughing*

Indeed, Powell is such a comedian. :lol

[Darth Viscera]

I think you're the funny one. France behaved so abysmally during this war, so selfishly and Francocentric. They're just sad, corrupt, power-hungry angry frenchmen now, who don't give a hoot about the plight of anyone else. They've shown their true colors, that they're unreliable at best as an ally, and our foreign policy towards them should reflect that.

[JediBoricua]

Seriously now, how can the US punish France? Economic sanctions would the hurt the US as bad, considering that by sanctioning France they would be sanctioning the whole EU...

[Charley]

You honestly think that sanctions hurt America pound-for-pound as much as France? :lol

Not that the French are seen as the most expedient and productive workers anyway, but that's a massive leap to infer that every Frenchman is pulling the economic weight of five Americans.

[Pilot Akito]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
I think you're the funny one. France behaved so abysmally during this war, so selfishly and Francocentric.

Untill this night I had never heard of Francocentric!!!!

So are we making up words now that the main part of the war is over?

[Charley]

Franco (related to France) + centric (centered around)

What is the problem here?

[Darth Viscera]

Francocentric is a legit word, Pilot Akito. Not that I don't enjoy word-makeupituding...I do.

[JediBoricua]

Well I'm sure Economic Sanctions to France would hurt the US because they would be sanctioning a major member of the EU, which could create a chain reaction on the organization against the US, etc. Of course this is all hipotetical and will not happen, but Powell going all psycho on the French now is not helping.

[Darth Viscera]

And you're hypothesizing that the rest of the EU would fall on their collective swords.....for the greater glory of le Republique Francaise?

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHA
...
hmm. I somehow doubt it.

[ReaperFett]

I don't. When a bully starts bullying, the likeminded help the one being picked on.

[JediBoricua]

Not for the glory of the French, but for their economic stability.


The EU is a single economic body, if the US does something to affect one of it's major members all the other countries will suffer also. Hence they would not put up with it. That includes Rumsfeld's New Europe, countries who are on the way of becoming members.

[ReaperFett]

AN in related news, the BBC has criticised the US news stations for being "unquestioning" in their coverage of the war.

[Darth Viscera]

And down goes BBC's credibility.

[ReaperFett]

Why? BBC is the one that wins the world broadcasting awards. They lose credibility for actually being willing to question things?

[Darth Viscera]

99% of the news outlets out there (in the U.S.A. too) are questioning things! They're questioning everything! They're relentless in their pursuit of new critiques, no matter how absurd, no matter how high and alarmingly unrealistic their expectations.

There are news stations on my satellite box right now with idiots who believe that Iraq didn't invade Kuwait, that we just went in there 12 years ago to steal oil from them. Then how did all those oil wells suddenly light up like roman candles? EH?

What news was BBC covering at 10:10am EST April 9th? Answer me that!

[ReaperFett]

I have no idea what was actually happening then, so you might as well tell me.

[Darth Viscera]

Of course you don't, because BBC was reporting on an earthquake in India. The statue of Saddam was being torn down, and BBC didn't even care enough to air it live! Credibility dwindling.

[Dutchy]

Saddam's statue was torn down and welcomed by a cheering Iraqi crowd.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
Why?

Because they dare to question something American. Well, pooh on the BBC!

[Darth Viscera]

Because they dare to make an uninformed blanket statement. Pooh on the BBC.

[ReaperFett]

Of course you don't, because BBC was reporting on an earthquake in India. The statue of Saddam was being torn down, and BBC didn't even care enough to air it live! Credibility dwindling.
I saw it on News 24. That's, BBC News 24.


But hey, Earthquakes arent serious, are they? :|

[Darth Viscera]

What is that, like BBC's version of CNN Headline News or something? If so, it doesn't count.

Also, you didn't mention if it was live.

[ReaperFett]

I saw it live.

And it does count, because the BBC showed it live. This may suprise you, but some people dont want to watch war 24/7. Heck, last week was bliss because I didn't know a thing. Why should they interrupt normal programming?

(And I dont know if they did or not, as I was on the actual news 24 channel)

[Darth Viscera]

Is that the main BBC news channel? If so, my bad, I was misinformed.

[Darth23]

What a shock.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Darth23
What a shock.

Oh, good! The resident in-and-out troll has something to say! You never did explain just why the cluelessness was so think that you could cut it with a knife.

[Jedieb]

Blasts Kill 9 at Baghdad Ammunition Dump
By ELLEN KNICKMEYER
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Attackers fired flares at an American ammunition dump on Baghdad's outskirts Saturday, setting off powerful explosions that killed at least nine civilians, including three babies, U.S. soldiers said. Hospital officials said more than 20 people were injured.

Angry residents, believing the Americans were to blame for the blasts, fired on U.S. troops trying to treat the injured and recover bodies from the rubble, driving them from the area for a short time.

``We took out six bodies. We were about to dig out three babies when they opened fire on us,'' Command Sgt. Maj. Gary Coker told Associated Press Television News.

The incident was a reminder that dangers persist in Baghdad, even though fighting has all but ended and the United States has begun focusing on postwar challenges.

Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld embarked Saturday on a trip to the Persian Gulf region - the exact itinerary was not disclosed for security reasons.

Rumsfeld has said he wants to talk to leaders of friendly countries in the area about possible reduction in the U.S. military presence now that Saddam Hussein's regime no longer poses a threat.

The ordnance that exploded in Baghdad was stored in a large field surrounded by high walls in the Zafaraniyah neighborhood. It was part of huge hauls of munitions that U.S. forces have been gathering from around the capital.

Coker said the flares that hit the dump were fired by ``somebody who knew what a pistol flare - if that's what it was - could do if it landed on a pile of ammunition. I mean, it was acres of stuff.''

``The flares landed on some ammo boxes and that's what started it,'' said Sgt. 1st Class Roger King.

Five people were admitted to the Zafaraniyah General Hospital in serious condition, said Dr. Mohammed Abdel Rahman Mahmood. About 20 others were treated at the hospital for minor injuries and released. The hospital had no official figures on the number of deaths.

Three small wooden coffins sat outside the hospital, possibly intended for the three babies that were believed to have been killed. A hospital security officer, Samir Ghreni, said the bodies of dead were being taken to the Palestine Hotel, where some U.S. military officers are housed, ``to protest the Americans, to show them the innocent people who were killed.''

An open-bed truck loaded with six coffins, presumably carrying victims of the blasts, drove through the neighborhood. Men stood around the coffins and chanted, ``Down with America!''

Residents dug through the rubble, looking for bodies. Four houses were destroyed, with all the windows on the street shattered and many walls collapsed.

The smell of sewage permeated the air after sewer lines broke. A deep crater in the road filled up with the dirty water.

A bed covered in glass lay on the street, with an empty cradle on top of it. Residents said the baby had been taken to the hospital. An unexploded missile also lay amid the ruins, as did a statue of the Virgin Mary. Zafaraniyah is home to Sunni Muslims, Shiite Muslims and Christians.

Hundreds of people in private vehicles began evacuating the neighborhood at the behest of U.S. soldiers. Many chanted angrily and waved their fists at the troops.

``This is the responsibility of the U.S. Army because we told them this is a civilian area,'' one man said from a beat-up white car. In one truck, people chanted, ``America's no better than Saddam.''

In recent days, there have been controlled explosions at the same ammunitions dump as U.S. force destroyed arms caches.

U.S. soldiers were keeping reporters away from the scene. But the military said civilians were being treated for injuries near the site of the blasts.

Col. John Peabody, commanding officer of U.S. Army's 11th Engineering Brigade, said the Americans were not to blame. ``Our early indications are that it came from an outside source,'' he said.

Army Spc. Kevin Braam said the dump stored both Iraqi and U.S. ammunition.

``I don't know if it was a civilian upset at us or if a militia may have caused it, but we're not the ones,'' he said.

Elsewhere in Iraq, a U.S. Marine officer said the peaceful departure of a Shiite Muslim cleric who had occupied the city hall in the city of Kut should reduce tension there.

The cleric, Said Abbas, left the city hall Friday evening after Marines delivered a letter demanding his departure. The Marines had threatened to arrest him on charges of theft and destruction of property if he failed to comply.

Backed by dozens of armed bodyguards, Abbas took over the city hall and claimed control of Kut more than a week ago. His followers had been protesting the presence of U.S. troops.

The people of Kut ``can feel a bit more secure knowing Abbas is not trying to take charge of the town, where he never had authority to do so,'' said Col. Ron Johnson.

Marines say Abbas is a member of the Iran-based Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution - the largest Shiite Muslim opposition group. The council's leaders have called for an end to the U.S. presence in Iraq and are lobbying for an Islamic government.

In another sign of returning normalcy in Kut, 100 schools reopened Saturday for the first time since the war, Johnson said. Marines had earlier cleared weapons from the schools, where they had been hidden by fighters loyal to Saddam.

In Baghdad, teachers reported to work in some schools but found no students to instruct as security concerns persisted and administrators awaited orders from a government that doesn't yet exist.

``People won't send their children to school without hearing some kind of instruction in the media,'' said Abdul Zahra Fadel, assistant headmaster at the Mohammed Dura Middle School.

With no television or newspapers, that is a tall task. Iraq also has no operating Education Ministry to order classes resumed.

But Baghdad slowly was regaining power. Brig. Gen. Steve Hawkins, commander of Task Force Fajr, or Dawn, said 75 percent of the eastern side of the city had power as of Saturday, and 25 percent of the western side.

He said 65 percent to 70 percent of Baghdad had water and all the water pumping stations were working. Of the city's 12 public hospitals, 11 had water and power. All 26 sewage plants had power.



Lots of fun times ahead for all.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Jedieb
Blasts Kill 9 at Baghdad Ammunition Dump


I heard at least 20 or maybe up to 40 were killed. Iraqis were all blaming the Americans. Stupid people, this is so not done by Americans.

[Darth Viscera]

This raises a question in my mind though. What were we doing with an ammo dump in a civilian area? Is it the case that this was Saddam's ammo dump, that he chose to put it in a civilian area, and we were gathering up all Iraqi ammo there in preparations of sending it to the rear for controlled explosions?

[ReaperFett]

It was an Iraqi dump that the Americans left, but added their own things.

The way the last report I heard was though, it sounded like they didnt think the Americans did it deliberately, more that they asked the Americans to move the ammo and they didnt. But to move it could set off Booby traps, surely?

[Marcus Telcontar]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/27/1051381854146.html


If this is true, it might explain a lot. I'll take a bet and say this guy may well come forward and tell the world about WMD Iraq has.

On the subject of WMD, anyone surprised by the lack of findings so far? I am. I dont doubt Iraq had them at all and I would like to see them found

[Darth Viscera]

Interesting theory. Tariq Aziz.

I'm not surprised by the lack of findings so far. The army and marines are still pacifying the country, civil affairs battalions are still trying to turn the remainder of the power and water on, I imagine that as soon as things are stable they'll go out and hunt for WMDs.

[Marcus Telcontar]

One more interesting thing about Aziz is that he is not Muslem. He's apparently Christian. I was readign something about him a few months ago and really, I was scratchign my head wondering how he could be so high up in Iraq. He's notably different to Hussein.

Also, this isnt the first I've read or heard about Aziz being a double agent. I guess once the people aziz wants safe are made so, we'll hear much more about him and what he was really up to. Watch this space I guess

[Pierce Tondry]

I KNEW IT! Haha! There just HAD to be an inside man on this one! I wonder if there are more.

This is a line of news that I shall watch with great interest indeed.

[Sanis Prent]

Yeah, Aziz is joining the witness protection program.

http://www.panic.hopto.org/swf/charley/aziz.jpg

WARNING: Profanity. Click at your own risk.

[Pierce Tondry]

Give him a cigar and you wouldn't be able to tell him from Groucho Marx...

Anyone know what the status of Iraqi pacification is? I mean, what percentage of the country is approximately docile and not fighting back?

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Sanis Prent
Yeah, Aziz is joining the witness protection program.

http://www.panic.hopto.org/swf/charley/aziz.jpg

WARNING: Profanity. Click at your own risk.

HOLY CRAP, IT'S HENRY KISSINGER!
I swear to god, that looks just like Henry!


Originally posted by Sniper Tondry
Anyone know what the status of Iraqi pacification is? I mean, what percentage of the country is approximately docile and not fighting back?

Basically all the major cities are occupied. Doesn't seem that the Iraqis are resisting very much.


Originally posted by Darth Turbogeek
One more interesting thing about Aziz is that he is not Muslem. He's apparently Christian. I was readign something about him a few months ago and really, I was scratchign my head wondering how he could be so high up in Iraq. He's notably different to Hussein.

Also, this isnt the first I've read or heard about Aziz being a double agent. I guess once the people aziz wants safe are made so, we'll hear much more about him and what he was really up to. Watch this space I guess

He's a Chaldean Catholic. Saddam donated millions of dollars to Chaldean Catholic churches across the world, so he must have tolerated them. There's one Chaldean church in Ohio that he donated $500,000 to because there was a debt on the church and the roof was broken, or something.

Tariq Aziz (the name means "Glorious Past") was born Michael Yuhanna, but people were hostile to him because of his religion, so he changed his name.

The muslims hate him. In 1980 the Iranian government backed an assassination attempt on him. Some sources indicate that the assassination attempt failed.

They say he poses no threat to Saddam because he has no power base, but one time (or probably more than one time) when Saddam got mad at him, he ordered Qusay to rape his wife and two daughters in front of him (Aziz).

[Marcus Telcontar]

Ah, so he was no threat. That explains that. And he had a motive. Aziz is the classic quiet guy, laying in wait for payback then. Really, the more I hear, the more I'm convinced Aziz sold Saddam out - and that Saddam himself was hit in some way. Iraq's actions after that night made no sense. The fact the oil wells were left untouched, the fact dams and stuff werent blown, or WMD used as a last ditch, the inneffective and confused defense response.

While the USA says Hussien is likely alive, the evidence says otherwise. I think that Hussein dead is the best result under tons of rubble.

Much liek the best result for the USA is that Bin Laden is dead in a cave. Never found. No chance to be a martyr. No trial that could go wrong. Just dead with a Special Forces bullet in his head.

[Darth Viscera]

Well, everyone in Saddam's inner circle had a motive. Everyone has had to watch as Qusay raped their wives and daughters, and sometimes even raped them. Saddam got pissed off at everyone at least once, and set Qusay on them. The same thing happened with Al Sahaf.

[Sanis Prent]

In 1980 the Iranian government backed an assassination attempt on him. Some sources indicate that the assassination attempt failed.

REALLY?

[Marcus Telcontar]

[quote] In 1980 the Iranian government backed an assassination attempt on him. Some sources indicate that the assassination attempt failed [/qutoe]

Gee, do you think it failed?

:p

[Darth Viscera]

Tee hee. You stumbled upon one of the easter eggs I leave lying around in some posts just to make sure you guys are paying attention :)

[Pierce Tondry]

Oh, right, we're the ones who need to pay attention... :p

[Jedieb]

U.S. Forces Fire on Iraqi Protesters
By ELLEN KNICKMEYER
FALLUJAH, Iraq (AP) - American soldiers opened fire on Iraqi protesters in a town west of Baghdad after being shot at by some in the crowd, a U.S. officer said Tuesday. The director of the local hospital said 13 people were killed and 75 injured.

The shooting took place Monday night in the town of Fallujah, 30 miles west of Baghdad.

Col. Arnold Bray of the 82nd Airborne Division, who gave the U.S. account of the clash, said at least seven Iraqis were hit by gunfire but could not confirm the reported deaths.

Dr. Ahmed Ghanim al-Ali, director of Fallujah General Hospital, said there were 13 dead, including three boys under 11 years old. He said his medical crews were shot at when they went to retrieve the injured, which he said numbered 75 people.

U.S. troops in the town were headquartered in a schoolhouse, and some in the crowd fired on the schoolhouse, Bray said. The al-Jazeera television station, quoting local residents, said the U.S. troops opened fire after someone threw a rock at the school.

Local Iraqis said an anti-American demonstration took place Monday by students between the ages of 5 and 20 to get the soldiers to leave the school so classes could resume Tuesday.

Bray said there were infiltrators in the crowd, including some who were armed and on nearby rooftops.

``Which kind of schoolboys carry AK-47s?'' Bray said.

Residents said the shooting continued for at least 30 minutes.

Edtesam Shamsudeim, 37, said her 45-year-old brother died in the gunfire. She was shot in the leg and her husband was wounded.

``We were sitting in our house. When the shooting started, my husband tried to close the door to keep the children in, and he was shot,'' she said at the hospital, sitting in a chair with a bandaged leg, surrounded by some of her children. Their clothes stained with bloody handprints.

``Americans are criminals,'' she said.

U.S. Central Command in Qatar said it had no immediate comment on the clash.

Outside the school Tuesday afternoon, people chanted for U.S. forces to leave Iraq. ``Go, go USA!'' they said in Arabic, adding some English at the end: ``Go away!''

Thousands of distraught people were attending funerals for the victims Tuesday, al-Jazeera reported.




The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah these are the Shitties, and I am very wary backing them since the Itolla was one and we could building some support for some Islamic extremist there to gain power especially when it seems the majority of the Shitties don't want us there.

[Captain Tyle]

The term you're looking for....is Shiites.

Quit cursin :mneh

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Yeah these are the Shitties.......Shitties don't want us there.

Dude, stop it.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Jedieb
The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend.

That is a very biased article. I'll link you to the CNN article on the same incident, which is more fair.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/29/sprj.irq.main/index.html

[Telan Desaria]

Note.


There is, despite CNN reports that the Germans are pacifists vis-a-vis the war, a large movement to bring Germany into line.

When troops array along the western border to take Paris for the third time in one and a half century, I will be there with a smile and bells.

Arguments in the Reichstag have been very heated. (I stillrefuse to call it informally the Bundestag.)

Many have lent their weight to it, including many members of the old aristocracy who feel they have several scores to setle. What very VERY little weight our family has is in support of German armed intervention.

[JediBoricua]

WTF?

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah what are you smoking Germany would never invade France again, first France has nukes and Germany doesn't I would think Berlin would be Toast if Germany ever tried to invade again.

[Charley]

Telan is a member of a German aristocratic family, with historical involvement in the Wehrmacht.

And while I think the idea of crossing the Rhine again to be a bit silly, France and Germany have shared a bitch/butch relationship for centuries. Considering how pompously France has acted when in the driver's seat, I can't say I blame Telan for wanting to slap French politicians in the back of the head.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Okay still Germany I think has no intentions of returning to their war roots, they learned the hard way from WW 2 (unless by some stroke of fate they get another crazie running that country).

[Charley]

...or you could not listen to the actual German.

Whichever.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Why would the Germans want to fight anybody? They have a strong economy a good nation. The only way the revert to WW2 form is if the economy goes in the gutter, unemploment rises to huge levels and some charasmatic guy (mostly likly a Neo-Nazi type person) rises to the top. I don't see lighting striking again twice in the same place it is extremely unlikely.

[Darth Viscera]

The economic costs of taking Paris would be prohibitive. Can you imagine the cost of developing a mobile ABM system and constructing enough units to send to all of NATO for service along the Rhine buildup line?

[Marcus Telcontar]

WTF is this German thing????? Are you frelling mad????

There have been some truly stupid comments made in this thread, but that beats any of Lebron's hands down. For God's sake, think before posting.

[Jedieb]

U.S. Troops Fire on Iraq Protesters Again
By CHARLES J. HANLEY
FALLUJAH, Iraq (AP) - U.S. troops opened fire on anti-American demonstrators for the second time this week as Iraqis marched Wednesday to protest the previous shooting. The local hospital said one person was killed and at least 16 others wounded.

The gunfire came less than 48 hours after a shooting during a demonstration Monday night that hospital officials said killed 13 Iraqis.

There was no immediate indication of any American casualties.

The clashes in Fallujah, a conservative Sunni Muslim city and Baath Party stronghold 30 miles west of Baghdad, reflect the area's increasing tensions as American troops try to keep the peace in Iraq.

About 1,000 residents marching down Fallujah's main street stopped in front of a battalion headquarters of the U.S. Army's 82nd Airborne Division, in a compound formerly occupied by Saddam Hussein's Baath Party. The demonstrators were carrying signs condemning Monday night's shooting.

Protesters started throwing rocks and shoes at the compound and troops opened fire about 10:30 a.m., scattering the demonstrators. Protesters then returned to pick up the wounded.

Medical staff at the Fallujah hospital said a 30-year-old man was killed, another man was in critical condition and 15 others were wounded.

Some witnesses said the gunfire appeared to come from within the compound, but Maj. Michael Marti, an intelligence officer for the division's 2nd Brigade, said soldiers in a passing convoy fired on the protesters.

As the convoy was passing, the demonstrators ``started throwing rocks and then at one point, they (soldiers) were engaged by what they believed was an AK-47'' and opened fire, said Marti, of Archbold, Ohio.

``My understanding is that there was no fire from the compound,'' he said.

Local officials said they saw or heard no shooting from among the protesters Wednesday.

U.S. Apache attack helicopters circled the site throughout the march and the aftermath, but did not open fire. U.S. officers were meeting with Fallujah mayor Taha Bedaiwi al-Alwani and leading area sheiks about the clash.

``Why? The demonstrators didn't use guns, so why should the soldiers start attacking them?'' asked the imam of the Grand Fallujah Mosque, Jamal Shaqir Mahmood.

He said the Americans should pull out of Fallujah - or at least cut back their forces.

``There is no (Iraqi) military presence here. Why is there an American military presence? We just want a reduction in the numbers,'' he said.

Fallujah is site of factories suspected of being linked to banned weapons programs for Saddam Hussein's regime.

Americans and Iraqis have given sharply differing accounts of Monday night's shooting. Paratroopers from the 82nd Airborne said they opened fire only upon armed men - about 25 infiltrators among a crowd of 200. Protesters insisted their demonstration was unarmed and peaceful.

Dr. Ahmed Ghandim al-Ali, director of Fallujah's general hospital, said the clash Monday killed 13 Iraqis - including three young boys - and injured about 75. Some residents put the death toll higher, at 15.

No Americans were injured.



Sadly, we'll be seeing more of these than Rocky sequels.

[JediBoricua]

But the Germans were against the war! What's the big deal, is not as if Chirac forced them too. They could as easily have supported military action if they wanted.

Eb, I'm afraid your right.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don't get this whole German thing I think the person wrote before thinking they have no plans of any military action against anybody. They don't even have an big army, do they even have an army? I know after WW2 they weren't allowed to have a military, I think that is why they didn't do anything in the Gulf War. Not sure about now.

[Charley]

Good grief you people are dense. Telan said that opposition as growing in Germany against the pacifists (which it is). He said that he would personally like to see the Germans cross the Rhine and smack France. One is a fact. One is a personal inflection on the issue. Figure it out.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am sorry he is one person and I don't know what you are getting at, Germany would never do anything again unless they want to get smacked around a third time in 100 years.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
I don't get this whole German thing I think the person wrote before thinking they have no plans of any military action against anybody. They don't even have an big army, do they even have an army? I know after WW2 they weren't allowed to have a military, I think that is why they didn't do anything in the Gulf War. Not sure about now.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????

Carr, we've been rearming Germany since May 1945. Yes, they do have an army -a very, very good army, basically an American-built army- called the Bundeswehr. Before the CFE, Germany had 9,500 main battle tanks, 3,250 armored fighting vehicles, 11,000 armored personnel carriers, 955 artillery pieces between 105 and 155mm, and 2,513 anti-tank guided missile systems, including the TOW missile. Their army is 233,000 men strong, though they're now reduced their armor and artillery to 1/3rd of what it used to be in line with the CFE.

If they didn't have a military, then they wouldn't have been able to contribute in the defense of West Germany should the East German and Soviet armies decide to take a little road trip. They also wouldn't be able to lead the forces in Kabul now.

Have you ever seen a German Leopard II MBT?

Google.com is a very quick and easy way to verify information that you're not sure of, Carr.

[Charley]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
I am sorry he is one person and I don't know what you are getting at, Germany would never do anything again unless they want to get smacked around a third time in 100 years.

Then READ! FFS...what I'm getting at is that he is not alone in this observation, and if you would take some time to actually read the goings-on in Germany, you'd stop posting stuff like this. There is a MASSIVE political catfight going on in the Bundestag (I think that's the name), with German legislators blasting Schroeder for being a putz.

And you seem to be missing the debating point. Telan isn't saying that Germany will invade France. He's saying that he'd like to see it happen. I'd also like to have sex with identical gold-plated asian twins. I'm sure you've wanted things that are impractical too, just for the sake of it.

And if we're going to debate this STUPID cracker-jack hypothetical, and say that maybe Germany decides to invade France...what makes you think we'll be on France's side?

[Jedi Master Carr]

You don't have to shoot jeeze, look I misinterped what you had to say you could have said that nicely not act like a jerk.

[Charley]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
You don't have to shoot jeeze, look I misinterped what you had to say you could have said that nicely not act like a jerk.

So now you're racist? Got something against jerks, buddy?

[Jedi Master Carr]

a Jerk isn't a race and I don't mind jerks as long as they aren't jerky to me.

[Charley]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
a Jerk isn't a race and I don't mind jerks as long as they aren't jerky to me.

I give up. People without senses of humor are like food without spice. Enjoy your moral victory, Captain Blandbottom.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I was going to give up anyway so we can call it a stalemate if you like :p Look I have a sense of humor but I just don't find your jokes funny.

[Figrin D'an]

Personally, I've found this whole recent discussion hilarious. :)

[Telan Desaria]

Thank you, Lounge.

What I stated was in fact an opinion.

Visc, is, AGAIN, correct in his number quoting and historical accuracy. The Americans, not alone General George S Patton, began rearming the beaten Germany Wehrmacht immediately after Berlin fell. The Germans hav fought outnumbered at nearly every battle except Verdun and have been victorious or given the enemy a bloody nose due not to numbers but training, tactics, flexibility, and field-innovation.

Many names served in the Bundeswehr after the fall of the Fatherland as it is refered, including Generalleutnant von Senger und Etterlein, Generalfeldmarschall von Rundstedt (not recommissioned, but as an advisor), SS Brigadefuehrer Kurt Meyer, despite his outspoken Nazi views, and others.

C'est la vie. Opinions are opinions.


And to rebut a commonly held belief that germany is not nuclearly armed there are two Silos ona small island near the Baltic-mout of the Kielkanal (Kiel Canal). As well, it does possess several high-tech versions of short-range tactical nuclear missiles.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I have never heard that. Germany has never been listed as country rumored to have nukes. Outside of the US, China, Russia, India, Pakistan, Israel, France and now North Korea, the only country I have ever heard of that might have nukes is Iran, but I don't think they do.

[Admiral Lebron]

Originally posted by Marcus Elessar

There have been some truly stupid comments made in this thread, but that beats any of Lebron's hands down


!!!!


I will double my efforts then.

[Darth Viscera]

France is helping Iraqi officials escape to the EU by issuing them passports. (http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030506-32981825.htm)

Our beloved ally, France, is assisting the Iraqi fascists in eluding Coalition search efforts, going so far as issuing them French government property to meet that end. Hopefully, a war crimes trial at the Hague will one day try the Frenchmen responsible for this. I wouldn't shed a tear if half the French government woke up one day to find themselves on trial.

Saddam, likely taking a hint from his rival Osama, has resorted to peddling his brand of Caligulan autocracy through the use of runners and audio tapes. (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/05/07/sprj.irq.audiotape/index.html)

From small acorns...
Hopefully, one day Robert Mugabe, Jacques Chirac, Jean-Marie Le Pen, Bashar al-Asad, Ali Hoseini-Khameini, Abdallah II, Umar Hasan Ahmad al-Bashir and Kim Chong-il will all be in the market for similar services.

[Marcus Telcontar]

One of my neigbours got home from Iraq two days ago. Quite safe, but even he is wide eyed at some of the technology the USA used. You know all these missiles and stuff we did see in the broadcasts? He states "That's nothing".

It's not until you speak to someone actually there, on the ground that you get an idea that the Iraqis did put up a good fight, but were blown away, demoralised by the way the allied forces were able to pick them off at will. It's not just the missiles that can hit within 17 mm target zones. A missile is now said to have missed i's target if it's outside of 10cm. They dont miss.

from the way it was described, humans will become nothing more than robotic delivery systems soon. It's really hard to describe, but this guy, who has served in hot zones before, was clearly awestruck at what stuff was tested on the battlefield.

Especially the new helicopters. Automated killing machines. It wasnt the MOAB's the missiles or other wonders we have seen that this guy reckons the Iraqi's feared. It was the helicopters. Your hostile and in range, you were simply dead.

[Darth Viscera]

Then he must have gotten wind of some sort of new technology which we don't know about yet. New attack helicopters? So far as I know, we have the Apache, the Kiowa, the Cobra, the Commanche...I don't know if any of these have been heavily modified for remote operation. It's a long shot because any combat soldier knows the difference between a predator and a heli, but could he have been referring to one of the Predator drones that's been modified to carry weapons, and just loiters above the battlefield?

It's within the realm of possibility (more than that-it's in the realm of practicality) that there are attack helicopters which can be remotely piloted, it's just this is the first I'm hearing of them. When I used to fly model airplanes, I got a taste of what you can do with radio control-a whole heckuva lot.

Some of our tomahawks did miss, though. At least 3 which were aimed at Basrah malfunctioned and wound up hitting Abadan (or near Abadan) in Iran, which is probably a dozen miles to the east.

[Marcus Telcontar]

It's not a Predator, it's definantly a helicopter, a new one. I honestly dont know details. The guy is Aussie SAS, so he knows about some good secret stuff, but this he stated was unbelieveable. As you might suspect, there was some top secret stuff tested. New battle armours, auto ranging and targeting guns, even a high tech howitzer. The helicopter was what he remembers the most.

His professional opinion is that there is no army on earth that can even consider fighting a war against this stuff. You will lose, it's how fast is the question. Basically, the reason the Iraqi's gave up was the fact that if you were hostile, you were dead. A lot of Iraq's soldiers were prepared to fight, but when faced with the stuff we saw (and believe me, the stuff we didnt see was even more impressive), they worked out they had no chance and thence went home.

The tatics of hitting command targets first worked extremely well. even with them mobile, the SAS guy told of how you could reprogram a Tomahawk in mid air and still hit even a mobile target. One thing Iraq did in the first Gulf war was stay mobile - which in this case just did not work. The USA could react faster, especially with guided weapns that could be retargeted in seconds. They did not have that capability 10 years ago. They do now.

was a pretty interesting afternoon's chat, all in all. He's glad to be home in one piece, but he also has a lot to think over.

[Charley]

The only new attack helicopter I know of is the Comanche, and I wasn't aware of them being pressed into service in the gulf. From what I am aware of, I thought the Comanche project was still being developed, but if they deployed them over there...thats kickin rad. Nothing like a snap-turning, stealth helicopter to ruin your day.

[Telan Desaria]

The only thing I can add in response is to criticize the ineptitude of the Iraqi military leadership.

For starters, any child could have better directed such a defense. The building up of stockpiles was critical, as was directly fortifying the cities which were to be placed under attack. Without bunkers and numerous redoubts, the Americans could have done what they did - roll through without stopping.

Another sore issue with the Iraqi government must be its poor concentration of land based aerial defenses. In Bagdhad alone it is reported that over one thousand anti aircraft emplacements exist of one kind or another, ranging from mounted light machien guns to bona fide flakanone, to SAM batteries. Their massing them around the capital did little good.

However, had they removed this false umbrella from the capital and used the equipment they were given - T-54/55 ZAS. They were original tank chassis with anti aircraft guns mounted in place of the turret, taking a cue from the German Wirbelwind.

Most of these were scrapped and made into mine clearing vehciles , their weapons mountd in Baghdad. Had these weapons been left to their anti aircraft battalions, Amerikan helicopters would not have been so devastating.

The Iraqis would have lost the war regardless, but it could have put on a much better show of it.

Iraq was completely unsuited for any holding engagements or infantry combat. Only armored engagements could have settled any action. The lack of maneuvering or grand tactical sorties against American formations spelled defeat. They would have suffered tremendous casualties, yes, but would have at least put fear into their arrogant (truthfully, they were) attackers.

The ineffectual useage of combat troops inside the cities themselves rather than irregulars is another mistake of epic proportions. Creating effetive anti-siege teams would have halted the Americans. A perfect tactic would have been to hold fire and allow the Amis into the city. After their leading elemnts had been allowed entry, squads built around an RPG could have assaulted them, cutting the head off the snake as it were.

C'est la vie. American technoloical and propaganda superiority has triumphed.



Again.

[Admiral Lebron]

I've sat at many a dinner tables of DOD brass... the newest thing I've heard of that is a helicopter is the Commache, which has yet to be combat tested.

[Darth Viscera]

Don't you just hate it when the pot calls the kettle black? (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/05/06/byrd.bush/index.html)


"I do question the motives of a desk-bound president who assumes the garb of a warrior for the purposes of a speech."

Maybe someone who was in the spearhead division during WW2 could get away with saying this kind of crap about his commander-in-chief, but I will be drawn and strumpeted if I'll let a draft dodging backwoods piece of inbred KKK trash get away with this without it tickling my angry bone. Senator Byrd, you sir are yellow, you sir are infamous, and you sir are a snake.

[Dutchy]

So, how about them WMD's? Found any yet?

[ReaperFett]

No, but they found some nice toilets in Saddam's place ;)

[Darth Viscera]

Make like Frederick Barbarossa and put on a suit of armor before jumping in a creek, Dutchy. Saddam gets 12 years and the support of the international anti-American conspiracy to hide the WMDs, and we get 34 days to find them? That doesn't sound too fair.

Politics aside, I couldn't care less if Saddam's WMDs go the way of Patton's buried desert tank army and we never find the hiding place. We went there to liberate a people from their facist oppressors, and we've done that. It was the right thing to do. 60 years ago, the Dutch proved that they too were keen on fighting for freedom-their own and the freedom of others. Hope that hasn't changed.

[ReaperFett]

Saddam gets 12 years and the support of the international anti-American conspiracy...
:rolleyes
You know conspiracy theories help to make a point be undermined, right?


We went there to liberate a people from their facist oppressors, and we've done that.
I thought they harboured terrorists. Oh wait, that was the other week. Now it's because they have weapons of ma....no, week before.

With Blair telling us what is going on, it changes every week :|

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
No, but they found some nice toilets in Saddam's place ;)

Maybe Darth Viscera can crap in one and call it a chemical weapon. :p

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
Make like Frederick Barbarossa and put on a suit of armor before jumping in a creek, Dutchy. Saddam gets 12 years and the support of the international anti-American conspiracy to hide the WMDs, and we get 34 days to find them? That doesn't sound too fair.

Remember the inspectors? They searched a whole lot more than 34 days and what did they find? Zip.

Oh, searching for 34 days without any resistance should result into more than a few of Saddam's crap holes, I'd say.


We went there to liberate a people from their facist oppressors

But of course. :lol

Why did it take you 25 years, by the way?

[Darth Viscera]

I thought they harboured terrorists. Oh wait, that was the other week. Now it's because they have weapons of ma....no, week before.

With Blair telling us what is going on, it changes every week

Well then that's your issue with Blair. I haven't deviated from my stated position that the Iraqis deserve a chance to be free.


You know conspiracy theories help to make a point be undermined, right?

I'm not talking about aliens from beyond outer space coming here to abduct Elvis Presley in order to force the Pentagon to reveal its true anti-UFO arsenal, Fett. You know very well that the U.S. is not the most popular branch on the tree. If it's just the word "conspiracy" that's activating your spidey sense, pretend I said something less dead-on.



Remember the inspectors? They searched a whole lot more than 34 days and what did they find? Zip.

Oh, searching for 34 days without any resistance should result into more than a few of Saddam's crap holes, I'd say.


You're treading on thin ice here. Even the U.N. acknowledges that Iraq is in possession of weapons of mass destruction. You want to volunteer to comb the desert, above and below ground? Big place. Might take you a while.




Why did it take you 25 years, by the way?

Because in 1979, when Saddam took power, there was a madman in the white house. His name was Jimmy Carter, and he was perfectly willing to do massively destabilizing things, like allow the Ayatollah and Saddam to take power. The Middle East may never recover from Jimmy Carter. Ah well. At least you leftists can walk around wearing foppish, toothy grins, proudly aware of the fact that you destroyed the middle east so you could put more money into welfare.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
You're treading on thin ice here. Even the U.N. acknowledges that Iraq is in possession of weapons of mass destruction. You want to volunteer to comb the desert, above and below ground? Big place. Might take you a while.

Indeed, but the US couldn't wait.


Because in 1979, when Saddam took power, there was a madman in the white house. His name was Jimmy Carter, and he was perfectly willing to do massively destabilizing things, like allow the Ayatollah and Saddam to take power. The Middle East may never recover from Jimmy Carter. Ah well.

Carter resigned in 1981, so it took four presidents to recover from him and take action?


At least you leftists can walk around wearing foppish, toothy grins, proudly aware of the fact that you destroyed the middle east so you could put more money into welfare.

Hehe, "you leftists"... I've voted right from the day I could vote, but in the US I might be a democrat-voter indeed. :)

Anyway, yeah, who cares about welfare? I'm sure Mr. Bush' popularity must be sky-high now with his brand new war-victory.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Dutchy

[quote]
Carter resigned in 1981, so it took four presidents to recover from him and take action?


He didn't resign, he finished his first 4-year term, ran again and lost to Reagan because he failed to accomplish anything when it came to the Iran hostage crisis.

We really haven't recovered from Carter's massive destabilization of the Middle East. It's important to note that the Middle East may never recover from Jimmy Carter. 800 years ago Genghis Khan, the self-proclaimed "Scourge of God" rolled through the middle east, leaving ashes and skulls in place of two of the largest cities on earth that had each had populations of 1.7 million. Up until then, Baghdad's banks had branches as far away as China, and it wasn't until 1800 A.D. that London reached a population of 1 million. It's the opinion of many scholars that the Middle East still has yet to recover from Genghis Khan, and IMO it never will. It's as if they sacked a middle eastern equivalent of post-1520 Venice. Well, Saddam Hussein alone is reponsible for the deaths of upwards of 3 million people, and he's inspired more terror than any all-mighty Khan. The Khans gave the Russians their infamous paranoia, so I am afraid of what Saddam has given the Iraqis.

[JediBoricua]

What screwed up the ME was the European powers dividing it as the saw fit. I don't believe 4 years of a mediocre administration has much to do with it. And if Carter had that, Reagan had Iran-Contra which was directly sending weapons and money into the region.

About the WMD's, c'mon the US had 'proof', they had pretty pictures at the Sec. Council, BUT WHERE ARE THEY? They are getting all the cooperation, the B'ath Party is officially dead, yet no weapons.

And really the main reason for going to Iraq were those weapons, it wasn't until week two or three of the conflict that the liberation part took over. Visc, I know you were talking about liberating the iraqis since day 1, but your president did not, neither did Blair or Aznar for that matter.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Exactly, the Mongols didn't destroy the Middle East for 800 years that is like saying the Huns destroyed Europe for 800 years or something. What about the Ottoman Turks? You forgot about them they were dominant and nearly brought the Austrian Empire to its knees twice. It was the European Powers they divided up the Middle East like they divided up Africa and Asia its taken decades for all those places to improve and most of them still haven't got much better.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Exactly, the Mongols didn't destroy the Middle East for 800 years that is like saying the Huns destroyed Europe for 800 years or something. What about the Ottoman Turks? You forgot about them they were dominant and nearly brought the Austrian Empire to its knees twice. It was the European Powers they divided up the Middle East like they divided up Africa and Asia its taken decades for all those places to improve and most of them still haven't got much better.

Carr, the Huns did bring about hundreds of years of squalor. They were called the Dark Ages. Honestly, what possible basis do you have for saying that the Mongolian rape of the Middle East has left no long-lasting effects? Do you see a restored Caliphate anywhere around here? Did he steal the popemobile and done runnoft?

Let's try a little test. How about we nuke every city in America with a population of over 100,000 into a thin coat of radioactive sand, put lye over the remains, then hit the pope on the head with the blunt edge of a shovel and toss him down a well. Now, wait 800 years and see what's happening then. My guess is that the people of 800 P.S. (post-shovel) America would still be suffering some long-lasting effects, aside from having a holy well that they can use to make a competitor to ZamZam Cola.

[Jedi Master Carr]

The Mongols did the same thing to Russia and China I don't see no long lasting effects there. Russia actually got better after the Mongols left and they actually had the Mongols occupy their territory for a lot longer and did more damage. Before the Mongol rule Russia was nothing more than city states when they left they became unified under Ivan the terrible and Peter the Great. And your theory gets blown to the water when the powerful Ottoman (who are from the middle east by the way) took over after the mongols left actually the Turks were more powerful than any muslim state before the Mongols came they almost beat the mighty Austrian Empire and conquered Constantinople. The previous Muslims states never did this.

[Jedieb]

Isn't if funny how certain facist oppressors are more tolerable than others?:rolleyes

I wonder how many women would label their current middle eastern governments as "oppressive?" Ah, well, I'm sure we'll be invading them all as soon as Martha Burk gives us a list.

I'd say we've got about 2-3 minutes after the new Iraqi goverment officially takes hold before we got a whole new set of oppressors getting to work.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
About the WMD's, c'mon the US had 'proof', they had pretty pictures at the Sec. Council, BUT WHERE ARE THEY? They are getting all the cooperation, the B'ath Party is officially dead, yet no weapons.

Exactly. :)

Meanwhile terrorists killed close to 100 people in Saudi Arabia, among them 10 Americans.

Saddam is down, but terrorism sure isn't.

[Telan Desaria]

The problem - and I am speaking biasedly as an aristocrat - with the Middle East, and indeed Africa is that the centres of industrial and militaristic power did not maintain control of them.

Had Britian, France, Germany, England, Italy, Japan, and Russia maintained their colonial empires, the civilizing and industrialization of these now backward regions would be vastly improved. Look at India right now. She is locked in perpetual near-war with Pakistan, suffers from wretched interal squabbling and poor health care, and is near bank rupt. Imagine if she was still the jewel of the British Empire!

Or perhaps we should imagine how things would have changed for lauded America if her possessions in China were maintained after the Boxer Rebellion of 1900. Indeed a different world without Chinese Communism, a separate Taiwan, or a billion starving people.

I invite your expected deriding....

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Telan Desaria
Or perhaps we should imagine how things would have changed for lauded America if her possessions in China were maintained after the Boxer Rebellion of 1900. Indeed a different world without Chinese Communism, a separate Taiwan, or a billion starving people.

Or even if we had just not allowed George Marshall to suggest peace on The Peanut in 1946, who was winning by a long shot at the time. 2 years of peace talks gave the Maoists time to build up. That's a smaller hinge than the Republic maintaining a presence in China into perpetuity.

[JediBoricua]

I'm not even going to go there...

[Jedi Master Carr]

If Europe hadn't conquered them they would have been fine on their own. I am sorry I am against empires, these empires fell apart because of their own problems most of them fell after WW 1 due to revolutions (Ottoman, German, Russian and Austrian) the French and British Empire fell apart because they got tired of holding the territories and they were draging them down.

[JediBoricua]

Just pointing out that UN inspectors are back on Iraq, it seems the US needs them to find the weapons...weird huh?

[Darth Viscera]

That's not the whole truth. I presume you're talking about this (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=2817236) article? Limited IAEA people searching for radiated Iraqis for safety reasons is a far cry from resolution 1441 weapons inspectors. You're blowing it out of proportion!

[Charley]

Inspections without a government actively trying to circumvent their success are welcome. I'm not sure what part of that you find odd. They should be free to do their job without Baathist interference.

[Marcus Telcontar]

And as a sign of how grateful the USA is of Australian involvement, we're getting billed for dropping the bombs on the USA's behalf

-_-

Gee. Wonderful.

[JediBoricua]

I'm merely stating the fact that after two months no WMD have been found, even though the US had undeniable proof they existed.


Marcus don't sweat it, that's the price of democracy.

[Darth Viscera]

The desert is a big place. It'll take time.

[JediBoricua]

That's what we said about the inspectors, yet they were not given time.

I'm not going to start this debate, since it's a dead issue, but I expected that if the US had proof (remember those pretty satelite pictures), which they showed the world and the UN, the weapons should have been found by now. Or at least the places were they built them, or the scientists that develop them, etc.

[Darth007]

And don't forget that its easy to bury a few chem missiles out in the desert the size of Cali. Plus, we've seen that they're using tractor trailer trucks as mobile WMD labs. Im sure at the first site of U.S. war preparation they shipped everything out to another country.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
That's what we said about the inspectors, yet they were not given time.

Charley, if you'll please rebuff him...


Originally posted by Agent Charley
Inspections without a government actively trying to circumvent their success are welcome. I'm not sure what part of that you find odd. They should be free to do their job without Baathist interference.

Thank you :)

[ReaperFett]

But if spy photos can show them in the first place (You know, that conclusive evidence), surely spy photos would show them getting moved?


Seriously though, the US government really needs to stop letting Rumsfeld do press confrences. Every time I hear him recently, he sounds like he is being interrogated and uncoordinated, as opposed to Powell who always sounds like he knows what he is talking about.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
But if spy photos can show them in the first place (You know, that conclusive evidence), surely spy photos would show them getting moved?

Agreed. I have no idea what's up with the WMD situation. We should probably get U.N. inspectors to come in and help us look.

[Darth Viscera]

http://www.humanshields.org/news/archive/04-2003.htm#tomhurndallshot

Saturday 26th April, 2003

On April 26th the last of the Human Shield volunteers arrived from Baghdad in Amman. Although we didn't succeed in the main objective of stopping this illegal and immoral war we may well have played a part in keeping the infrastructure of Baghdad intact, keeping the misery of millions at bay. We will never know for sure the impact we had but suffice to say that all the sites we were stationed at were targeted and hit by the U.S. in the last Gulf War. This time only one of the sites was hit; a communications site that we had vacated one day earlier. Unfortunately we cannot say the same for hundreds of facilities throughout Iraq, in particular, Basra. We simply did not have the numbers to station ourselves throughout Iraq.

We have proven that a rag-tag bunch of people from all walks of life can bypass our undemocratic governments, act and affect change. We have learnt a lot from this action and we are in no doubt that this movement is only just beginning.

To the elite of this world: *expletive* you we're gonna monkey wrench your little party.

This just makes me want to vomit in terror. The American people (and our allies) spend billions to produce state of the art bombs that'll fly through your window, tip its hat to the local womenfolk, automatically kill anyone holding an AK-47, then fly back out and explode against the local Ba'ath party HQ. Then we go out of our way to avoid bombing civilian infrastructure targets, and the gosh darn Human Shields take credit for it. I think they give themselves too much credit.