War is Imminent

[Pierce Tondry]

Oh, for crying out loud.

I hate free radicals.

[Charley]

I'd like the human shields to take credit for the pesky red stain on their carpet...in about 2 hours.

[JediBoricua]

LOL, human shields are funny. They really take themselves too seriously.

About those mobile trailers, from what I've read (maybe it's classified stuff), what little evidence they have is circumstancial and not conclusive. And they have all the major scientist in custody and I am sure they have been cuestioned tirelessly. Really there is no excuse for those weapons not being found.

Granted it's a big place, and it's been only two months (or less?). But if by six months nothing has been found, or no progress made I'm going to believe the whole War for Oil issue.

[Dutchy]

US choice of disarmament to justify Iraq was political: Wolfowitz (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030529/pl_afp/iraq_us_britain_weapons_030529190059)


WASHINGTON (AFP) - The US decision to focus on Iraqi disarmament as the motive for war was made for "bureaucratic reasons," Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said in an interview.



Wolfowitz admitted to the magazine Vanity Fair that the weapons of mass destruction issue was never the United States' prime reason for launching a war on Iraq (news - web sites) to overturn the regime of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites).

"For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction, because it was the one reason everyone could agree on," Wolfowitz said in the interview.

Another reason for the war, which slipped by "almost unnoticed, but huge" was that the Iraq war would allow a withdrawal of US troops from Saudi Arabia.

The presence of US troops there has been one of the main bones of contention for the terrorist network al-Qaeda, the official said.

"Just lifting that burden from the Saudis is itself going to open the door" to a more peaceful Middle East, Wolfowitz said.

Seven weeks after the Iraq war ended, no weapons of mass destruction have been found, nor evidence linking the Saddam regime with al-Qaeda -- two of the main reasons given publicly by Washington and London for launching the war.

Wolfowitz's comments illustrate the desire of US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) and his administration to play down the issue of weapons of mass destruction -- while nonetheless insisting that finding those weapons in Iraq is still a priority.

On Tuesday, US Defense Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said it was possible the Iraqis may have decided to destroy any such weapons before the conflict started.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
That's what we said about the inspectors, yet they were not given time.

Exactly.


I'm not going to start this debate, since it's a dead issue, but I expected that if the US had proof (remember those pretty satelite pictures), which they showed the world and the UN, the weapons should have been found by now. Or at least the places were they built them, or the scientists that develop them, etc.

Exactly.

:)

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Dutchy
Exactly.

Charley, if you'll please rebuff him...


Originally posted by Agent Charley
Inspections without a government actively trying to circumvent their success are welcome. I'm not sure what part of that you find odd. They should be free to do their job without Baathist interference.


Thank you :)



If I were you, I'd take with a grain of salt anything that any govt. or military official says in an article or on TV before it's confirmed by Ari Fleischer or the Pentagon press secretary (for military news). Ari is quite good at codifying things. He might well appear today at the 12pm white house briefing and refute the claims made by Wolfowitz.

We have teams searching at hundreds of suspected WMD sites in Iraq ATM. It's well known to the world how good Saddam was at hiding these things. It would be highly imprudent to jump to any conclusions before all the facts are in. The desert is a big place, lots of potential hiding places.

How psyched are you about the fact that an Al-Samoud missile, on March 27, hit right near the Doha compound? The amazing thing about this is that the missile, which has been reported as having a 150 kilometer range to the U.N., flew 700 odd kilometers from Basra to Doha!. How can a missile with only a 150km range possibly fly 700km? That is a violation of the cease-fire right there, yet another justification for war. If Saddam was greatly lying to the U.N. about the range of the Al-Samoud missile, what makes you think he wasn't lying about the WMDs? We'll dig the darn things up sooner or later. His lie about the Al-Samoud was NOT an isolated incident. He's a dictator. He lies.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
We have teams searching at hundreds of suspected WMD sites in Iraq ATM. It's well known to the world how good Saddam was at hiding these things. It would be highly imprudent to jump to any conclusions before all the facts are in.

Yeah, just like the US waited to start a war before all the facts were in... not.

Anyway, days before the war it didn't exactly look like it would take months to find even one WMD. So far they've found zip.

My cautious guess is Blair's political @ss is approaching grass. :)

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Dutchy
Yeah, just like the US waited to start a war before all the facts were in... not.

sigh. Charley, you're needed again.


Originally posted by Agent Charley
Inspections without a government actively trying to circumvent their success are welcome. I'm not sure what part of that you find odd. They should be free to do their job without Baathist interference.

Thanks Charley man.



Anyway, days before the war it didn't exactly look like it would take months to find even one WMD. So far they've found zip.

You should take into account the likelihood that Powell showing those spy satellite pictures at the U.N. had repercussions. Saddam may well have freaked out at that point and re-hid everything. Give it time.

[JediBoricua]

I am giving it time, I am fully aware of the burden of policing and rebuilding Iraq and the toll of it on all the troops and personel there.

But all those things had to be taken under consideration months before by the Pentagon. Each week that passes without a trace of weapons is a week of less credibility for the US. I am giving it time, but as I said before, if after six months nothing substantial has been found, this war, to me, was bogus and greedy.

About the Al-Samoud's, it was well known that they violated the UN terms, which is precisely why more than 50 were destroyed by the UN itself before the war begun! Obviously the iraqi regime stopped desarming once it was made clear that the US was going to invade.

[Darth Viscera]

But all those things had to be taken under consideration months before by the Pentagon. Each week that passes without a trace of weapons is a week of less credibility for the US. I am giving it time, but as I said before, if after six months nothing substantial has been found, this war, to me, was bogus and greedy.

I'm sorry, but I see that as a selfish outlook. The middle east is a very troubled region. Thanks to our efforts, in 10 years Iraq may be as prosperous as Kuwait or even the United Arab Emirates (the UAB's people per capita are richer than the people of Spain right now). That sort of prosperity might very well spread, and in 50 years, when we're all picking out our caskets, the middle east could possibly be a stable, prosperous land. I don't know about you, but I'd die a happy man if I could see peace and stability and a prosperous people in my mother's land. If there is even a one in a million chance that these events could lead up to that sort of prosperity, then God bless us, it was well worth it-those 125 American troops and 5,000 Iraqi civilians will not have died in vain.


But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

-Abraham Lincoln, The Gettysburg Address



Originally posted by JediBoricua
About the Al-Samoud's, it was well known that they violated the UN terms, which is precisely why more than 50 were destroyed by the UN itself before the war begun! Obviously the iraqi regime stopped desarming once it was made clear that the US was going to invade.

The U.N. believed that it had a range of 180km or so, instead of the 150km allowed. It may have come as a surprise to a lot of people that they could go 700km.

[JediBoricua]

And that was how many missiles? one?


Anyway, the fact is, historical fact, that this war was made up because of national security. Countless time we heard the administration rethoric of Saddam harboring Al-Quaeda, developing and giving them WMD's to use against american interests. This war, according to all of the president's spokepersons, secretaries, etc, was to make the american people safe.

You cannot change the tables now and dismiss the whole WMD's issue because you are not making progress. I'm sorry but the whole "we are the good guys, we know what's better for a poor, oppresed, arab country" argument is no good here. Find those weapons and give a boost to US credibility or do as Wolfowitz (sp?) and admit it was an excuse for going in.

And about this oversimplified prosperous middle-east in 10 years, I think you are being overly optimistic. The US will give democracy to Iraq, but is that the same as liberty?. What keeps the iraqis from electing a totalitarian religious government? Would the US have to invade again? How are we going to make sure that the minorities in Iraq are treated fairly and justly, something that hasn't happened since the Europeans drew up Iraq? For Iraq to be totally free and stable, a civil society must be formed, and weight and balance system be established, and mechanism from keeping another wacko get power. That my friend is a much harder task, and I fear it will take more than 10 years and 120 dead american soldiers.

The UAE is a prosperous state, so is Kuwait, but they are not a democracy, they are run by oligarquies and oil barons.

[Pierce Tondry]

Each week that passes without a trace of weapons is a week of less credibility for the US. I am giving it time, but as I said before, if after six months nothing substantial has been found, this war, to me, was bogus and greedy.


I find that an ineffective standard for judging whether or not the war was a positive thing. The real way to judge that would be to look at the impact of the change ten or twelve years from now.

Think about it. In 1991, Saddam was in power. In 2003, what had changed?

Nothing.

Incidentally, I'll add that the six months time limit on finding WMDs seems poorly adjudged as well. They'll find the WMDs around the same time they find all the money the Husseins looted from that bank heist in Baghdad.

[JediBoricua]

No, it's not the same as finding cash!. Because there was 'undeniable proof', Powell's words not mine, that Saddam had WMD's, there are no satelite photos of the Husseins running from banks with a ski mask and a black sweater, but there were photos of trucks and facilites. I'm sorry, but in this world with fast paced communications, embedded reporters and analysts by the dozen, six months is an eternity, I feel i'm being kind by giving them six months. The fact is that this issue was drilled into our collective beigns day after day by analysts, war mongels, politicians, secretaries and the president himself, and not finding any weapons and giving petty excuses for it will not suffice. Those weapons have to be found, if Bush wants to be back in 2005 (obviously the Dems aren't helping their cause with their stupidity).

I repeat, each week without WMD's means less US credibility.

[Pierce Tondry]

*Sigh.* And I was trying to cut down on this kind of thing.

Given that those satellites were looking for WMD facilities and not bankrobbing trucks, why would you expect a photo?

I agree with you that locating WMD facilities, etc. would prove the US right, so to speak. But I also think that delineating such a narrow corridor for judging the success of this is not right. Independant of locating WMDs, people would also judge how the US handles Iraqi rebuilding and deem that a part of the war's success or failure.

You want proof of WMDs. I don't disagree- I think that proof would be the right thing to provide to grant the entire thing legitmacy. But I don't think the reconstruction issue is something to be ignored, either.

[Darth Viscera]

Reconstruction, as a matter of fact, should be the primary focus. The distribution of humanitarian aid to Iraq is currently mediocre. Much of Iraq is still without water, electricity (which means no air conditioning), food is still twice as expensive as it used to be, there's still massive thievery and lawlessness, Iraqi police don't dare to go outside without U.S. Army escort, tremendous gas shortages and lines at the pumps, communications are for the most part still down or limited, and there are hundreds or thousands of individual groups which are each looking to gain power.

Where is the international aid for these Iraqis? 150,000 U.S. troops can only do so much in such a chaotic situation as this, God knows they're doing their best, and all the while they're being fired upon. We need some real, ORGANIZED humanitarian aid distribution. The U.S. is definitely doing its part-we've put $80 billion into reconstructing a country which is only worth $49 billion in GDP, if you can believe it. On the bright side, a lot of civil servants are going back to work now that they're being paid again, and by June 15 Iraq will be pumping 1.5 million barrels of oil/day, which will completely alleviate the gas shortage. Iraq only consumes 850,000 barrels internally, so they can export the rest for much needed hard currency. By mid-July they'll be pumping 3 million, and I'm not sure but I think they're pumping more than 600,000 now. Everyone in the coalition is working their butts off to put the country back together.

Anytime you want, Europe, you can just send those billions in aid along to the Iraqis. Come on now, don't be stingy.

[Darth007]

Thank god for people like Viscera and Charley. Satellites are satellites. They aren't capable of hovering over one country for 2 months and take live feed video of every action going on in Iraq. Powell got those images of WMDs back before the war most likely by having human intelligence on the ground(aka Spec Ops). Once the location is given a satellite can take the picture as hard evidence instead of saying, "The other day our top secret Special Forces that you're not supposed to know about are in Iraq and they found some WMD's, but we have no pictures."

Oh, and this whole war for oil is bull. If it is, then why arent we just sailing away with billions of gallons of oil for our own selfish reasons? Eh? Thats because we're doing our best to stabalize the country, and put the oil to good use. Instead of Saddam and his lackeys spending billions on his dozen palaces, all from oil exports, we are now able to give the Iraqi's the gas power they need, and export it so THEY get the money.

I just love how people criticized us about not caring about the people and the country before we went into this war, and now that we're taking our time to do a good job, those same people are whining about how long we're taking. I don't see any other countries jumping the gun to help out. :mad

[Marcus Telcontar]

I don't see any other countries jumping the gun to help out.

Why shoud they? Hmmm?

[Darth Viscera]

Because the Iraqis need their help? Why shouldn't they help out?

[Darth007]

Exactly. They rush to point the finger about us not helping but no one else has done anything considerable to help either. There's no rules for giving aid, its called kindness.

[JediBoricua]

You are rebuilding, I understand that. But that should have been part of the plan since the beggining. That is no excuse. If you plan on a change of government, after bombing a country, you should know that anarchy will emerge for a couple of days, and that you will need millions of tons of relief and a couple hundred thousand relief soldiers. That is all fair and good, and the US and it's allies should keep on doing that.

My point is that if there was such undeniable and accurate evidence, why arent' they finding WMD's? You don't need the 150,000 US soldiers to find those weapons. Is not as if the CIA and the intel personel are the ones driving the wheat trucks or reconecting the pipe lines. It's not the job of the interim government to find the weapons, it's the job of the intelligence apparatus who said over and over again that they had the evidence. Now where are they?

I mean, this is the greatest most advanced army on Earth, can't they do both things?

[Darth007]

yeah your right, it shouldnt be too hard to find them and that's something I would questions, but that doent mean that this war was a bad thing and that we should be blamed.

[Darth Viscera]

^
What he said.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by Darth007
Exactly. They rush to point the finger about us not helping but no one else has done anything considerable to help either. There's no rules for giving aid, its called kindness.

So..... why isnt the USA helping more with the looming humanitarian African crisis, where up to 1/3 of the population is infected with HIV?


it's the job of the intelligence apparatus who said over and over again that they had the evidence. Now where are they?

The same intelligence apparatus who said they had solid, verifiable and indisputable proof. You have had 4 weeks to interrogate people. Now, I also understand what a big job it is to find anyhthing in such a bit of real estate, but you have enough commanders in custody to be able to find somethign by now. The almost total lack of anything is... well..... interesting.

Now, I dont think the war was unjust, mind. What they should have done is not given WMD as the main reason - there were so many others. But, since this issue was the hinge, the justification... the lack of WMD unearthed isnt looking too good.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Marcus Elessar
So..... why isnt the USA helping more with the looming humanitarian African crisis, where up to 1/3 of the population is infected with HIV?

But we ARE helping with the African HIV crisis. At the same time that he was talking about the liberation of Iraq in the 2003 state of the union address, he announced that we would put $15 billion into fighting HIV in Africa. Heck, it's right on the front of the White House webpage.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/hivaids/

Australia is committing $7.5 million USD to fight AIDS in Africa, correct?

[JediBoricua]

Well the war was focused and sold to the american public on WMD's and Iraq's ties to terrorism, if they do not find WMD's or solid proof about Al-Quaeda then the war was wrong and unjustified.

[Morgan Evanar]

But we ARE helping with the African HIV crisis. At the same time that he was talking about the liberation of Iraq in the 2003 state of the union address, he announced that we would put $15 billion into fighting HIV in Africa. Heck, it's right on the front of the White House webpage.AFAIK that was reduced from the original figure of something like $34 billion.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
Well the war was focused and sold to the american public on WMD's and Iraq's ties to terrorism, if they do not find WMD's or solid proof about Al-Quaeda then the war was wrong and unjustified.

That's a very selfish opinion. 26 million people have been liberated from a brutal dictator, and that justifies the war. It wasn't the wrong thing to do at all. I refuse to feel bad about my country having liberated a suffering people!

@Morgan
I thought he announced it was 20 billion at the state of the union. Doesn't really matter though, it's a whole heck of a crapload of cash, very generous and humanitarian of us.

[JediBoricua]

FInd don't feel bad about liberating Iraq, and you shouldn't. I know how you have felt about the war since the beggining, but your personal reasons are the reasons Bush used to invade. But if there are no weapons the american government and it's leadership lied to it's people, the international community and the iraqis themselves.

As I have stated numerous times, the official line was finding WMD's and disposing of the threat that Iraq was to the US, two weeks into the war the administration tried to turn the tables and turn this into a liberation war.

And btw, the Senate Intelligence Comitte is about to start an investigation on the 'proof' that the CIA and other intelligence bodies presented Congress and the UN to determine if it was true, and if the Pentagon had unquestionable proof of the existence of WMD's. It seems I'm not the only one doubting.

[Dutchy]

Pressure on Bush and Blair to come up with some proof for those WMD's seems to strengthen. Especially Blair might be facing some serieus political consequences.

[Darth Viscera]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/25/sprj.irq.centrifuge/index.html

Feel free to ignore that in your statements that we haven't found any WMDs in Iraq if it goes in the opposite direction of the Dutchy party line. :)

[Park Kraken]

To earlier posts about French nuking us on the first page,
1) They don't have Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles, their missiles have just enough range to hit Moscow.
2) The only reason they built those 2,000 nukes was because they are so cowardly, and run away, that they have to have something to hid behind. True, they do have subs that can travel to our doorstep, but that is why we have Los Angeles Hunter-Killer Subs, AEGIS cruisers, and Osprey ASW aircraft. :)

[Telan Desaria]

The French have not been a military force since the beginning of the Second World War and the rise of de Gaulle. Witht eh sole exception of the French Foreign legion, they have nothing I worry about.

regardless of whether the weapons were found, action was needed. Without war, we bevcome compalcent. And with complacency comes the ultimate defeat and pacification of mankind.

[JediBoricua]

Well Visc if I'm reading correctly that article says something about the scientist hiding those pieces 12 years ago...weird huh? I though we fought a war on '91 to disarm Iraq, must be my bad, it seems 12 year old evidence is good now...


I love it how the administration is dumping all the blame on the CIA director. Er, we just took the lead from the CIA, we were just following the pretty pictures and the forged documents that the CIA presented us. Also the fact that republicans are blocking the Congress investigation on the WMD's, shame shame shame.

[ReaperFett]

Bit like that over here JB. Blair blamed "Rogue Operatives" in MI6 (If that is the abroad branch, think it is) for things that went wrong. Very convenient, blame the spies ;)

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030625/140/e37ij.html - The British Government has now admitted to stealing part of their Iraq dossier from a 12 year old report.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
Well Visc if I'm reading currently that article says something about the scientist hiding those pieces 12 years ago...weird huh? I though we fought a war on '91 to disarm Iraq, must be my bad, it seems 12 year old evidence is good now...


I love it how the administration is dumping all the blame on the CIA director. Er, we just took the lead from the CIA, we were just following the pretty pictures and the forged documents that the CIA presented us. Also the fact that republicans are blocking the Congress investigation on the WMD's, shame shame shame.

I'm sure that it was your intention to make a point, but I'm not sure what that point is. Saddam Hussein is Saddam Hussein, WMDs are WMDs, 12 years or not.

[JediBoricua]

Let me make it a bit clearer then.

This can't be the WMD's that Saddam had and that Bush was sure he was going to give to Al-Quaeda so he could gas major western cities. You see they were buried twelve years ago and they have not been unburied since. As the article itself said, this is no 'smoking gun'. Besides twelve years ago we all knew Saddam had the weapons, he used them for the love of god!, if that is all the evidence the best army (an intelligence apparatus) in human history can find, it's pretty lame.

[Darth Viscera]

Iranian Missile Causing Concern (http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=8209)

Apparently, the Ayatatollahs, fascist pigs that they are, are flight testing a surface-to-surface missile which can reach Israel. It is unknown to this reader what the power generating capacity is of their new missile, but it must be great, seeing as how their excuse for going nuclear was that they needed the electricity.

Oh, and they've also invaded Iraq by sneaking forward in increments, planting their border posts 20 miles inside the country. I can't find confirmation on this via any articles on reuters or CNN, I just heard Donald Rumsfeld say it to some sort of congressional committee. As a person who's half-Iranian, I feel great shame in the thought that the country is going on its first invasion in nearly 250 years.

What is their excuse for this great incursion? Apparently they're looking for any MIA Iranian soldiers that may have been out in western Iraq since 1988, and their expedition has nothing to do with the possibility of stumping towards like-minded islamofacists and smuggling in Hizbollah wackos and bio-bombs.

According to my Aunt, who lives in Tehran, the Iranian revolution (or rather, the new one, such as it is) was supposed to come on July 8. I wish it would hurry the heck up. Let's get these clowns out of there so that country can begin its return to normalcy and the Middle East will be that much more stable.

Iran would not have conducted this sort of missile test 4 months ago. Israel and Iran still had a mutually beneficial relationship back then when they both shared Iraq as an enemy, and Israel was shipping spare parts for 1960's-era U.S. weapons and armor (the kinds that make up the ex-Imperial Iranian Army) to Iran using Mossad assets.

Hopefully, Iran will face a coup d'etat soon.

[Dutchy]

I just watched an item on TV about Democratic candidates who can't wait to rub Bush' lies under his nose. Bush and Blair aren't in the most favorable position, now that they still haven't found any WMD's.

Meanwhile the 147th American was killed this week in the Iraq (post) war,which is as many as were killed in Gulf War I.

[ReaperFett]

It's not due to the WMDs, it's due to the wrong information that has been given.

[Dutchy]

Well, that's kinda the same, but yes, indeed.

In another item they showed this student who wrote a paper that the British intelligence used to prove their points. Pretty embarrassing. Not only did they show it as if it was their's, but also did they change some words here and there to make it sound stronger. They changed a word like "hostile" into "terrorist', to link Saddam to Al Qaida.

All in all: to be continued, that's for sure.

[ReaperFett]

Well, they were cleared of "Sexing up" the document, but does seem wierd that they manage to forget to credit sources they take from. If I did that at University, I might be thrown out. I fail to believe a government would make the same mistake.

[JediBoricua]

I saw today on my local news, haven't search the web for it, but some CIA official (or the director itself, I was leaving the room and didn't catch the beggining) has said that some of Bush's White House employees forced him to include false and/or exagerated statements on a report so Bush could put them in a speech (don't know if it was for the State of the Union Speech, or some other public appearance).

Anyway it seems that it has hit the fan...

[ReaperFett]

I believe it wasnt false at the time, the problem was it wasnt researched enough for a speech. As it turned out it wasn't true, IIRC.

[Telan Desaria]

documents can be destroyed. Uranium lasts. I would be perfectly ameanable to Germany retaking the Togoland or the Heilgioland to find out. Perhaps America would like to conquer South Africa to make a point?


Really - troops are needed in Africa to forceibly end these civil wars and stravation. Westernization is needed.

As far as Iraq - this a job for the Russians. The Americans do not belong there.

[ReaperFett]

Yes, troops are needed in Africa, more than anywhere else IMO. I mean, look at, Uganda was it? The moment the US seem to be moving in, the leader takes Asylum in Nigeria. That could save a lot of trouble, just by a threat. And then you have what is basically ethnic cleansing in Zimbabwe, as Mugabe tries to manipulates one race to believe something, while he really is working for his own gains (The farms that were taken from white settlers all went to friends of Mugabe if I remember right).

[imported_Marcus]

I think, listening to the speeches today by Bush and Blair - I think the problem they have is that they based justification on the war on something false. And right now, with no WMD's showing up and intelligence shown to be shoddy, they are looking bad.

The probelm tho, is that the war was IMO justified for humanitarian reasons. Those are arguable and justified ones and hell, there has been a shed load of eviddnce to show it should have been done years ago. Basing the war of WMD's was a bad mistake - and even if the war went well and the humanitarian outcome was good, the fact is it was based on WMD's and the question right now is ..... where are they? Not even a trace so far.

Hopefuloly, you can see where I'm coming from. Bush and Blar (and thnk god, Howard here) are looking bad. It need not be so.

[Darth Viscera]

Iraq is free, and that's what counts. Let them conjure up whatever conspiracies they want, it's always nice to have a hobby.

Iran, on the other hand.

Let's see what Iran has done in the last week:

-Used Fidel Castro to jam an international TV satellite which carried, among other things sent out to different countires, Iranian-American TV programming to Iran. That satellite served content to a few hundred million international viewers, not just 70 million Iranians. Fidel Castro gets more oil in return.

-Invaded western Iraq under the guise of searching for any of their MIA soldiers who might still be sitting in 1988-style trenches.

-Beat a Canadian journalist until she was braindead.

-Convinced Kofi Annan to delay indefinitely sending a U.N. commissioner on human rights, who was scheduled to arrive today.

-Put down another attempt at a democratic revolution through the aggressive use of the same type of militants who took the hostages.

-Purchased 2 nuclear weapons from Ukraine.

-Tested a missile capable of carrying a nuclear payload to Israel, western India, Turkey, Russia, Egypt, anywhere within 1,500km.

A few discreet cruise missiles aimed at the ayatollah, Rafsanjani and a few choice mullahs would end this nightmare. Let the protestors and His Highness worry about reinstating the 1906 constitution and democratizing the place, since we don't enough troops to deploy to Iran.



Telan,

Maybe the Russians should worry about westernizing themselves first, eh? They're not exactly in a position to project power, being the fourth-rate, backwords country that they are. Their GDP exceeds that of Canada by only 25%, despite having 483% of Canada's population. To put it in another way, Russia has a GDP of 1.25 trillion USD, America's GDP is 10 trillion USD. They are flat out broke! Heck, even Germany is 2.2 trillion, and China 6 trillion.

[ReaperFett]

Let them conjure up whatever conspiracies they want, it's always nice to have a hobby.

Conspiracies like stealing from 12 year old documents by University students? Conspiracies like the CIA admitting to parts of Bush's speach to be wrong and shouldn't be there. THey're not conspiracies, they're FACTS.

[Darth Viscera]

Well shiver me frikkin' timbers, matey! Excuse me while I writhe in terror.
:rolleyes

[ReaperFett]

Oooh, now it is getting interesting. A weapons expert who was at the head of the whole argument has turned up dead, and Blair has said there will be a full independant inquiry, meaning we'll be finding out info that was withheld.

[Senator Kensington]

-Purchased 2 nuclear weapons from Ukraine.

According to what? Ukraine doesn't even have Nuclear Weapons. They have Nuclear plants, but they're not remotely interested in converting it to weapons-grade. Especially since they're getting all cushy w/NATO. Now they did have some kind of situation last year with a crash of an Antonov over Iran, or something like that, but their main trade partners are Russia and Germany. Where do you get this information?

[Darth Viscera]

Ukraine has had large military contracts with Iran since mid-1992, before they started disarming their arsenal of 5,000 strategic and tactical nuclear weapons.

http://www.rezapahlavi.org/index.htm
I found the link to the news report there, some 3 or 4 days ago. It was about Iranians working as part of an anti-mullah group here in D.C. who had discovered proof that Iran had purchased 2 nuclear weapons from Ukraine. Unfortunately, I didn't bookmark the article, and can't find it in my browser's history.

I believe the article is true because I don't think it entirely improbable that Iran could acquire 2 nuclear weapons from Ukraine, a country which has been hemorrhaging advanced weapons for the last 13 years.

[Senator Kensington]

I looked at the article archives on the site but I couldn't find it. They got rid of 'em all in '95 or '96 I believe, or so they say. I doubt they kept any. The U.S. and Russia made sure of that. And since we're so great at making sure countries have WMD or not, I think Ukraine is clean, and has been since '96 or whenever they got rid of them.

[Jedieb]

"UNtruth and Consequences"
That's TIME's headline this week. The article is an interesting read.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Senator Kensington
I looked at the article archives on the site but I couldn't find it. They got rid of 'em all in '95 or '96 I believe, or so they say. I doubt they kept any. The U.S. and Russia made sure of that. And since we're so great at making sure countries have WMD or not, I think Ukraine is clean, and has been since '96 or whenever they got rid of them.

There's an archives section? I'm talking about the "Latest News on Iran" section, I can't find any archives there.

[Senator Kensington]

Well, "Articles of Interest". It says archive of articles in English. I guess they're not all put there afterwards.

And yes, even though Urkaine is a leader in ballistic missiles and guidance systems and the like, I extremely doubt that they would ever distribute nuclear weapons, especially to Iran. Maybe the missile equipment, and they'd be very hush hush about it, but not the warheads.

[Darth Viscera]

I was referring to "Latest News on Iran" not "Articles of Interest"

heh, our state department is formally asking Cuba to investigate their jamming of our bird. What do you think, Castro will just flip us the bird and hope we don't airstrike the Lourdes SIGINT complex (I believe that's the one he's using to jam the bird)? We can jam their jammers, right?

[Senator Kensington]

The NSA can jam just about anything... even english muffins.

[Darth Viscera]

So we should jam the bastards.

Cuba is officially announcing (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17059-2003Jul19.html) that it is not jamming the signal, and that this is all a new anti-Cuban campaign of lies spread by the Imperialist Bush regime. I think that the Cuban government has hired Al-Sahaf as a consultant.

[Senator Kensington]

Damn! I knew it was those cursed Jamaicans!

[Darth Viscera]

Mullahs:" Hurrah, we managed to develop a weapon* which can strategically target Israel without hearing one peep out of Israeli Defense Forces F-16s!" (http://www.nj.com/newsflash/international/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?a0456_BC_Iran-Missile)


*Designed in North Korea

[Darth Viscera]

Just wondering, but do any of you care enough about Kobe Bryant that you want to hear news about him 19 hours a day? Is it just me, or do the guys on Fox News and CNN who prioritize programming have very low IQ's and absolutely no understanding of what the average Joe wants to hear about in the news? How about more political commentary and serious (wars and politics) international news?

So far, for the month of July, the major news networks have aired 11 minutes of coverage on the rebels in Iran, and I bet North Korea is not much better.

News coverage should be proportionate to importance, right?

[Senator Kensington]

Not really. Most Americans don't care about what happens in Iran, they care about their superstars. The News Media is biased, but biased towards what most Americans want to hear. They're just doing what'll get them the ratings, and throwing in whatever the minority wants in once a day.

[Darth Viscera]

That's the good thing about HDTV, you know. You can put 5 different programs (or more) on one channel, as long as all the programs put together don't exceed 20Mbps (the max bandwidth for an HDTV channel). They should have 2 programs on their HDTV channel when they get one, 1 program for celebrity news, the other for politics, wars, events.

[JediBoricua]

True Visc. very true. But since the war is over, although more americans are dying now than during the war, interests in politics, current and important issues has gone down. So now we get flooded with Kobe Bryant and the teens!

But seriously when has news coverage focused on what's importance. Remember the Lewinski coverage. Or the OJ Simpson trial. And this is not an american issue only, european papparazi, etc.

In TV ratings are the king, and if the people want junk (i.e. reality Tv), networks will give them junk!

[Senator Kensington]

There are special-interest news channels, but most of them are made by hippies. I like watching CNN Global News on the weekends. When I went overseas it gave a perspective I could appreciate, and didn't bother with pansy human interest stories :)

[Darth Viscera]

Yeah, Newsworld International has a lot of foreign news, but they go out of their way to be ferociously anti-american, to the point of illogic. (they claim that Saddam never invaded Kuwait in 1990, and this claim was based on the testimony of a mean-looking fat woman who stated numerous times that she never found any tank tracks on the roads in Kuwait)

[Dutchy]

Saddam's sons Uday and Qusay got killed today.

[JMK]

Woohoo!!!

[Darth Viscera]

I hope they bury them in spinning coffins (so their corpses will spin upside down like in a dryer) which have spikes designed to continually impale the corpse, and are filled with nitric acid (the coffin, not the spikes). Ideally, their veins should be filled with a liquid substance that is half turpentine, half diarrhetic feces from victimized Iraqis. Additionally, their coffins should have a system which will light them on fire for a few seconds, extinguish the flames, then reignite them, etc etc.

Beats the bejesus out of burying them upside down inside a pig's carcass. I challenge anyone to come up with a more fitting way to bury them.

[Telan Desaria]

I would recommend desating the remains after incarceration and placing them into one of the mass graves near bagdahd so they are forever trapped with those whom they have tortured.

[imported_Marcus]

How about drop the childish wishes, just show the bodies so everyone can see they are dead, then cremate and throw the ashes away.

I think the allied forces needed this type of good news. Good work and I bet the Iraqi informant will enjoy his 30 million reward

[Marcus Telcontar]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/23/1058853102695.html

Transcript of the press conference. I listened to it and there's no doubt I think that they got em. Be interesting what tomorrow's conference will be. The General is probably right, guerilla resistance will most likely lessen. There would be a hint right now that "Saddam's next".

and unlike Bin Laden, there's little or no risk Saddam will become a martyr if he was killed. I always thought that Bin Laden is probably quietly dead in a cave somewhere, that would be best solution. Saddam, they'll want to show he's dead and gone.

[Senator Kensington]

Really? I think the Americans would love to have a confirmation that bin Laden was dead. Plus Saddam. If America got both in one day, it would be declared a national holiday.

[Darth Viscera]

oooh that would be one sweet holiday.

I feel sorry for the decorators in perdition. Starting yesterday they have to design whole new rooms.

[Darth Viscera]

Saddamite Iraqi Ambassador to Beijing flips out (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25409-2003Jul21.html)

This has the makings of a wonderful reality show.

Don't Iraqi embassies have marines who can act as law enforcement?

[Senator Kensington]

"We see him every day. He stands at the door, sometimes in a T-shirt and shorts, and he just points his gun at us. His wife also points a gun at us. She's a very good shot. We try to stay out of range."

Khudairi said he cut the telephone lines in the embassy because Alani was running up the bill with long-distance calls.

The ambassador can often be seen from a nearby apartment building playing basketball on the embassy grounds with his two small children. He also occasionally sneaks out of the compound in his white Mercedes to buy groceries, Iraqi diplomats said.

"Just look what he's doing. It's not very diplomatic."

:lol

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Marcus
How about drop the childish wishes

No, don't worry about it, it's perfectly acceptable to direct this much hate towards a person who's so monstrous. Not childish at all.

Uday and Qusay and Saddam have been responsible for a lot of death in my family. Hell, if I killed 9 of your 2nd cousins, you'd be rather keen on dancing on my gravestone too, eh? My family would be a lot bigger if that bastard hadn't decided that Iran was weak enough to invade.

For hate's sake, I hope that those two evil incarnates are burning in hellfire. They'd better get the Camp X-Ray version of hell, too, not just the ordinary version, but the room they share with Chairman Mao while they get violated by a Richard Simmons who's just had a few double shot mocha fraps.

[Senator Kensington]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/07/23/sprj.irq.sons/index.html

Man, some Geneva junkies are going to be after this one. There was some controversy over the last couple days as to whether or not to release the photos. I mean, when Iraqis released pictures of American troops being questioned, Rummy got all in a huff. I can't possibly tell how the Iraqi people will react... the obvious reaction would be joy, but most Iraqis don't trust us anymore, if they ever did, and will probably think they're forgeries.

[Darth Viscera]

Al-Jazeera is already saying that we violated some sort of war crime by killing Uday and Qusay, and calling us murderers, etc.

O to see the world through a warped Al-Jazeera filter for a day. But then, I probably wouldn't want to give the Amir of Qatar editorial priveleges over my eyesight. Al-Jaz and journalistic integrity don't seem to spoon well.

I'm weary of showing the picture of their dead corpses, too potentially problematic with critics, but IMO it has to be done. Iraqis are scared to death of these bastards.

[Darth Viscera]

Canada Recalls Envoy to Iran To Protest Burial of Journalist (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37483-2003Jul23.html)

Boy, is Iran in for it now! :lol

Seriously, you know that you're an international pariah when you've so alienated Canada that they have to withdraw their ambassador.

Economic sanctions against Iran a possibility (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030724.wkazemi0724/BNStory/National/)

Anyone read Tom Clancy's The Bear and the Dragon? This reminds me of when the PROC killed the Papal Nuncio and a Chinese Reverend who were trying to stop an abortion, and the U.S. SecState who was in Beijing on trade talks got called home for "consultations".

[Senator Kensington]

I went on a Tom Clancy spree a couple of years ago. Haven't read B&D yet, though.

I saw a commercial from the "Premier of Ontario", that's his title, to attract business there. Good commercial, actually.

[Charley]

What war crimes were done by killing Uday and Qusay? To my knowledge, enemy combatants are fair game.

[ReaperFett]

I believe you're not allowed to parade hostages or corpses of the enemy on Television.

[Darth Viscera]

US Government != CNN

reading through geneva conventions now.

[Senator Kensington]

I'd think Fox=US Government

I saw the pictures... I hate to say, maybe it's the beards, but those bodies look nothing like Uday and Qusay. Uday is bald and bloated in the picture, and Qusay lost some weight and gained a beard, apparently. I suppose it could be, but it doesn't look like them when you have "before and after" photos.

And yeah, Charley, it was the displaying of photos that was the controversy. They were fair game.

[Darth Viscera]

Article 15 of the First Geneva Convention

At all times, and particularly after an engagement, Parties to the conflict shall, without delay, take all possible measures to search for and collect the wounded and sick, to protect them against pillage and ill-treatment, to ensure their adequate care, and to search for the dead and to prevent their being despoiled.(A)

Article 17 of the First Geneva Convention

…They shall further ensure that the dead are honorably interred….


(A)-despoil: to strip of belongings, possessions, or value : pillage

We have no reason to believe that coalition forces went through Uday and Qusay's pockets and relieved them of 200,000 dinar and liberated a swiss watch, so I don't see how what we're doing violates Article 15 of the 1st Geneva Convention.

Article 17 is obviously not yet applicable, as they haven't been interred yet.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/wm260.cfm

That webpage is what I'm using as my source. I can find nothing so far to indicate that showing pictures of dead enemy combatants (Uday and Qusay are not POWs) to others is a violation of any Geneva convention.

[Dutchy]

http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?c=news_photos&p=uday+qusay+corpse

[Dutchy]

Uday's head looks much bigger...

[Senator Kensington]

Perhaps, Visc, but many will still call it immoral.

And yeah Dutchy. He looks bloated.

[Darth Viscera]

It looks to me as though his head is deformed, because of his massive head wounds. The whole right side of his head (centering around his right ear, looks like) has been blasted out, as if someone took a jackhammer to his right ear. If I'm seeing this correctly, that is.

Notice the shape of his nose. Perhaps he was subjected to lots of concussion, resulting in his bones shattering?

Anyway, IMO, what you're looking at is not someone who's put on a lot of weight, what you're looking at is someone whose skin isn't being held up correctly because the bones that used to hold his skin together are shattered, so his skin is drooping. He's kinda like a boneless chicken.

[Telan Desaria]

If I believe correctly, like the Russians before Barbarossa, they did not sign the Convention and thus no combatant are required tofollow it by any other precept aisde of their personal sense of honour.

[Senator Kensington]

I suppose you could be right, Visc. I'm not a doctor, and I don't know what post-mortem corpses are capable of.

[Telan Desaria]

I pose this qiuestion.

Would someone trying to run an unltra secret counter insurgency front and hiding every waking momnt from American or Imperial British patrols have the time to gorge himself?

I believe I would take just enough sadwiches to please myself intestineally and concentrate the remainder of my time to planning the series of strikes to come next.

Just conjecture.

[Senator Kensington]

Actually, I heard on NPR that while on the run, Uday and Qusay's car passed by numerous allied columns... I don't know how that's possible, but I didn't hear the rest.

[Darth Viscera]

My mom's live-in friend is setting off for Esfahan, Iran tomorrow. He's a big gambling freak, and wants to start up a casino in Iran someday. Maybe the mullahs will look the other way if he confines it to a Native Armenian reservation :lol :lol

I asked him if he would blow the crap out of the Majles-e-Shura-ye-Eslami (their Islamic parliament/congress/assembly/what-have-you) while he's there, but I don't think he'll do it. Lazy bastard.

I asked him to take pictures of just regular stuff over there, like the streets, the supermarkets, monorails, the orthodox jews, etc.

[JediBoricua]

Just thinking...

I think they should close this thread and star a Post-War Iraq thread or something like it.

[Darth Viscera]

But if that were to happen, this thread wouldn't go on and on. I think that's a very bad idea.

[Senator Kensington]

This thread isn't just about post-war Iraq. It's title, War is Imminent, generally takes in the climate of the geopolitical world right now. Sad to say.

[Darth Viscera]

Gadhafi is one ambiguous SOB (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/08/03/gadhafi/index.html)

Palestine may be about to explode again, let's hope an IDF mechanized infantry brigade isn't getting ready to move right now in retaliation (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=U1XUMNFZBIPQ2CRBAEOCF EY?type=topNews&storyID=3210719)

[Senator Kensington]

Residents said Palestinian police in vehicles began patrols in the nearby city of Bethlehem in search of the assailants.

That's about the best anyone can expect from the PA and Mazen. I don't understand how Bush can just sit there and take his hollow promises when Mazen even said a couple of weeks ago in Egypt that he will take no action against the terrorist groups. Albeit his reason, the threat of civil war, is viable but I don't understand how anyone can take him seriously. He can offer Hamas and Islamic Jihad positions in the government, but can't put a lid on them. Arafat wouldn't, and even if he wanted to he couldn't because the PA has no real control over those groups. I can see a Palestinian civil war in the next few years... expecially with the power struggle between Arafat and Mazen. I just hope it's not like Lebanon.


"Russia and America, they were enemies, now they're friends," he said. "We hope that one day we'll be friends also."

Wow. I agree Visc.

[Darth Viscera]

I really don't see a Palestinian civil war coming about anytime soon, if only because I can't imagine any Palestinians wanting to duke it out with their kin more than the Israelis. I'm guessing that the Palestinians see the IDF as their enemy a lot more than they see the Mujahadeen as their enemy, for better or for worse.

Very yucky situation over there :(

[Charley]

If there is ever a "cooling trend" between Israel and the Palestinian nation, then I'd wager on a civil conflict in Palestine itself. Actually, maybe even one in Israel too. The trends are all there on both sides. When the peace movement was at it's height, it was an Israeli who did it in, by assassinating Yitzhak Rabin. Even peace in the middle east might be a catalyst for more war :\

[Senator Kensington]

Well, obviously the PA doesn't represent the whole of the palestinians like the PLO was supposed to. Israel has a lot of it's own leadership problems, like what kind of nation they truly want to be.

A Jewish state in the whole of the land of Israel, including the West Bank and Gaza, but without total democracy because the Palestinian population is growing much faster than the Jewish, and to keep the nation Jewish the government would have to deny the Palestinians citizen's rights, and it'd be a big mess. Secondly, a democratic state by annexing the West Bank and Gaza but losing it's Jewish identity, because the Palestinians would soon outnumber the Jews if emigration patterns continued. Their last choice would be to retain their Jewish identity and democracy, but by getting rid of the West Bank and Gaza. Then the state wouldn't encompass the whole land of Israel, and Israel's security would probably be in worse shape.

Anyone who is interested in this situation should read From Beirut to Jerusalem by Thomas Friedman. Excellent book.

PS -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16856-2003Aug3.html

I kow it's premature but any thoughts?

[Darth Viscera]

Powell has said that washington post article is untrue.

[Senator Kensington]

It's just speculation.

[Darth Viscera]

I hope it's false. Powell is seen by many as being a moderate, losing him would mean losing support for the Bush administration.

[Telan Desaria]

I must say I have changed my opinion on Americas leader rather rapidly.

I agree wholeheartedly on his running of the police action in Iraq, even if it is a tad on the haphazard and un-strategic side, but his running of civil policy os far too conservative and ridiculous for my tastes. HE is doing the opposite of the leader of the Third Reich, who attempted to run a war when his true realm was internal politics, Bush is trying to meddle in civil affairs when his true purpose is democratic war.

[Senator Kensington]

That's an interesting analogy. However, the omnipotent paranoia and fear which surrounded Hitler's lieutenants is not present in those under Bush, but the eyes of the American people are, so losing face could substitute in a lesser manner than losing your life.

And yeah, Visc. Powell was basically the only guy I liked on the foreign affairs team. I really hope Rice doesn't get the job. If Wolfowitz does, then Rummy won't have to deal with the State Dept. when he wants another go at some other nation marked for "regime change".

[Darth Viscera]

Yeah, he'll have to deal with our astounding troop shortages instead, which is even more paralyzing. We don't have enough men to deploy another army for regime change. If an international crisis broke out tomorrow and we had to deploy 150,000 troops to, say, Taipei, where would they come from?

[Senator Kensington]

I think the US Army has some 10 divisions... seven of which are in Iraq or coming home from Iraq. We are in no way prepared for a crisis right now.

[Darth Viscera]

We have 4 divisions and 2 brigades in Iraq. The 1st Marine Expeditionary Force (a marine division), the 101st airmobile division, the 3rd Mechanized Infantry division, the 4th Mechanized infantry division, 1 brigade of the 82nd airborne division, and the 173rd Airborne brigade. That's less than 5, not 7.

I'm counting off the April 9th order of battle though.

[Darth Viscera]

http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Jul2003/030722-A-0000W-001.jpg

There's a nice picture of Uday's house blowing up as our boys orchestrate its reduction. Here's what I think you're seeing: 8 regular soldiers from the 101, the guy on the right is an Iraqi, part of the Iraqi groups we're organizing to help us out, 3 heavy weapons operators? (the guys with the drab grey helmets, the center one seems to be talking on a sat phone), and two delta force guys, recognizable by their black helmets.

[Telan Desaria]

The American Army is not truly capable of offensive operations right now. At least fifty divisions must be raised in any capacity in a short amount of time if any other deployment is to be considered. Perhaps if it combed out its rear ecehlon units that are uneeded, several emergency battalions could be rasied. Civil Affairs troops, 90 percent of the Pentagon staff and nearly the entire Army Air Corps/Force could be disbanded to form combat units.

It is truly ironic that the only countries with an Army large enough to commence hostile actions are the Russian Federation and China!

[Darth Viscera]

^
Conscripts and more conscripts. AK-47-wielding conscripts, at that. I'd like to see an underfunded, untrained, underequipped Russian motor rifle division try to take on a batallion from the 3rd mechanized infantry division.

50 divisions? Are you mad? With the way that U.S. divisions normally become bloated, that would end up being in excess of 3 million men. We're not trying to occupy all of planet Earth, you know.

However, I don't think that Russia or China would risk a major war with us. Given a few years of buildup, the idea of 30 million land warriors ready to pounce on China should be enough to make the Politburo collectively crap themselves. We're talking a WW2-sized conflict, though.

[Sohei]

The American Army is not truly capable of offensive operations right now.

That's why we have the most powerful and effective naval force on earth. Force-power projection. Some people call it gunship diplomacy, but it's the only kind of diplomacy that most of the Middle East understands and responds to. Send the Nimitz and two thousand marines to any hotspot and boom, you'll probably get the situation to cool off.


AK-47-wielding conscripts, at that.

Actually, if they could afford it, the Russians would equip their conscripts with An-94s, which is arguably the best assault rifle right next to or better than the vaunted M-16 or SA-802 or whatever they're calling the new British one. And their conscripts I think have AK-74s now.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Sohei
Actually, if they could afford it, the Russians would equip their conscripts with An-94s, which is arguably the best assault rifle right next to or better than the vaunted M-16 or SA-802 or whatever they're calling the new British one. And their conscripts I think have AK-74s now.

I wonder about their combat effectiveness even with the An-94.

[Charley]

The kind of gun helps, but it's the training that keeps you alive.

[ReaperFett]

which is arguably the best assault rifle right next to or better than the vaunted M-16 or SA-802 or whatever they're calling the new British one
:lol!

Sorry, the words "best" and "British" when talking military hardware makes me laugh :)

[Charley]

The Enfield is pretty decent, aside from being a funky bullpup rifle.

[Senator Kensington]

Yeah, but in Bosnia and the Falklands the original SA80 failed to deliver. They contracted some Germans I think to re-vamp the whole thing. Hopefully it works.

Obviously, the Russians are not the force they were fifty/forty years ago. But they still can field a decent military.

[Darth Viscera]

A decent military, yeah, but I don't think a military which is capable of threatening our overseas interests. I mean, their newest tanks are still spinoffs of the old T-72, right?

I hope that Army R&D is working on greater anti-personnel protection for our troops, so that they can't get shot in the head again while at a coke machine in a Baghdad university campus.

[Senator Kensington]

I mean, their newest tanks are still spinoffs of the old T-72, right?

Well... yeah :\ Still, no one has ever been able to beat the Russkies militarily on their own turf decisively. By decisively, I mean winning the war. Even the largest land invasion in all of history couldn't bring them down.



Cause (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41778-2003Aug10.html)

Effect (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/10/lebanon.israel/index.html)

Granted, both sides have their fair share of causes and effects.

[Darth Viscera]

Yeah, but the kind of weapons, tactics and training we have right now makes the WW2 Wehrmacht look like the Belgian Army.

If we really needed to, we could clean their carpet. The Russians don't have a new-age version of the T-34 that can beat the crap out of our version of the Panzer II. Nukes aside, of course.

[Senator Kensington]

Yes, but think about the scenarios in which a war with Russia would occur. We would have to start it unless a Communist regime staged a coup and went gung-ho. If we started it, it would either be because we have a wacko President and then we would be ousted from NATO and the UN and the world would want our blood, or because Russia did something we didn't like but the half the world wants us to, and half the world doesn't so we might seem some global action in terms of Russia's allies coming to it's aid. But the casualty rates on both sides would be tremendous.

Nukes... well... Russia has about 10,000 warheads which are degrading in some cellar somewhere. We have around 10,500-11,000 in pretty good condition. Granted those numbers don't mean much as they are still enough to blow the world to hell twenty times over.

[Darth Viscera]

I don't think it too unlikely that a rogue regime could take over Russia and become hostile. It happened 86 years ago, and they attacked our Russian garrison back then. Russia looks too much like Weimar Deutschland for comfort.

[Park Kraken]

I think a war with China is much more likely than with Russia. China has the technology now, they are building up a decent Navy, they have a good Air Force, and they have better Cruise Missiles, and a System better than the AEGIS Technology right now. Last I heard China had 200 Nuclear Missiles, and 50 Launchers for them, although they only have an intermediate range.

Although scenario I was thinking of was what If the Russkies invaded the US, and the local citizens that weren't already armed took up arms, and formed local militias? How far do you think the Russkies would get before we triumph over them assuming we don't use anything bigger than the local militia?

[Senator Kensington]

I agree. There has been an unusually large amount of pro-communist protests recently, demanding that Putin step down. I actually wrote a short story on a scenario like that, Visc. Still have it, if you're interested.

China has around 400 warheads. And with the weaponry many Americans already have in their homes or businesses, they'd give the Russkies a helluva time. But it also depends on where they invade... Alaska or the west coast or what. But that doesn't really matter seeing as how the question is about if we only use militia, which is crazy.

[Darth Viscera]

How would the Russians even get here? Our navy has 13 carrier task forces, if they tried to invade they'd be joining the Japanese-intercepted WW2 lend-lease material we sent them at the bottom of the ocean.

[Park Kraken]

My thoughts exactly. Although the Chinese do have the largest navy in the world at 450 or so hulls, only about 30-40 are comparable to American Warships, with the majority of the rest being small patrol vessels, PCFGs, and older ships. They only have one SSBN, The Xia, and we have about 50 Los Angeles SSNs.

[Park Kraken]

Phfft, I bet in terms of airpower the Indians could wipe the floor with the Chinese. They have an old British Carrier, a Russian Carrier, and are fixing to buy another British Carrier, while China still has no Carriers!

[Darth Viscera]

The INS Viraat will sink if you look at her sideways, I imagine, and her Harrier complement is only 12.

[Senator Kensington]

Yeah, then just wait for the massed hordes of gung-ho Chinese pouring over the himalayas south into the tranquil Indian villages in a Korean-esque human wave attack. I imagine Pakistan would be quick to capitalize.

[Telan Desaria]

I find your lack of current military appreciation disheartening.

Apparently none of you have been to a Russian military base nar Vladivistock lately. Allow me to elaborate. The Russian military as it stands is approximately twenty percent ready and eighty percent not. Let us write off the conscripts as cannon fodder and forget that eighty percent.

The Russian Black Sea Fleet has clothes flying from its conning masts in place of signal flags and lacks the fuel to go to sea. We will thus write off its signifcance.

The Russian Army, speaking now of nly this twenty percent, is quite capable of fighting a war against the Americans. Let us take for example the Russian 40th Guards Division. This title is not official of course but its people refer to her as such regardless. She was formed after Stalingrad in 1942. Since then she has seen some of the worst combat in Russian history and pulled through. Currently it is equipped with a full armored battalion as well as dedicated anti aircraft units, an air transport and support squadron, and seven thousand infantrymen - all mounted (bayonet strength). This unit is well drilled and currently engaged in Chechnya.

Of these there are, perhaps if memory serves, ten divisions. Let us assume the rest of the Russian Army and its various state-run spinoffs are conscripts. The American 3rd Division would have a tought time indeed.

And as far as the T-72. Its primary disadvantage is a lack of gun negative elevation - four degrees - and its reliance on the Mark XII atuoloader. Howeever, its silhouette is seventeen percent smaller than any Western tank, espcially the abrams, is as fast, and on a given, non moving target, deliver four times as many shots within two minutes.

The T-84 is still in the preliminary stages. The T-62 and *gulp* the T54-55 is still the workhorse of the Russian tank corps.

[Park Kraken]

What of the Russian Air Force? Are they still using ancient Mig-31s, and Foxbats?

[Charley]

Su-34's and Su-37's. They can out-maneuver our air force.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Telan Desaria
The T-84 is still in the preliminary stages. The T-62 and *gulp* the T54-55 is still the workhorse of the Russian tank corps.

You forgot to mention that they're still using T-34s.

Wait, let me say that again:

T-34s which were built 60 years ago are STILL on active service in the Russian army.

Sorry, but that needed repeating.

Someone break out the Napoleon 12-pounders, here comes a T-34!

[Darth Viscera]

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=8020&Cr=iraq&Cr1=

Maybe the U.N. will bring in international peacekeepers now to help us in Iraq? It's good that the Security Council condemned the attack, but they need to do something positive.

[Senator Kensington]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/19/sprj.irq.main/index.html

UN Special Rep. to Iraq, Sergio Vieira de Mello, is dead. Visc, I see that as very viable in a couple of weeks.



And as far as the T-72. Its primary disadvantage is a lack of gun negative elevation - four degrees - and its reliance on the Mark XII atuoloader. Howeever, its silhouette is seventeen percent smaller than any Western tank, espcially the abrams, is as fast, and on a given, non moving target, deliver four times as many shots within two minutes.

Actually, the top speed of the T-72 is about 60 km/h, while the top speed of the M1A1 is 41 mph which translates into 66.7 km/h.

Exactly. On a non-moving target. The M1A1 beat the snot out of the Iraqi T-72s in Gulf War I, and they compared it more to the antiquated Marine M60A3. This could also be due to the fact that Iraqi tank doctrine leaned more towards static tank positions, while American doctrine emphasizes quick fire-while-moving spearheads. The sights on the Abrams were able to see through the smoke and dust to find the Iraqis who didn't even see them coming.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=8020&Cr=iraq&Cr1=

Maybe the U.N. will bring in international peacekeepers now to help us in Iraq? It's good that the Security Council condemned the attack, but they need to do something positive.

Is that really Darth Viscera requesting the U.N. to help America? :)

Anyway, looks like America isn't so mighty in Iraq, indeed.

[Senator Kensington]

Anyway, looks like America isn't so mighty in Iraq, indeed.

First off, no one said we would automatically have a picnic in post-war Iraq. They expected us to immediately have all the services up and running, the pro-Saddam groups pacified, and everything fine and dandy. Where did it say we would have to guard UN outposts?

And if they did decide to get involved with a peace-keeping force, the UN would help the Iraqis, not us.

[Dutchy]

Nope, over 60 dead post-war American soldiers isn't exactly a picnic.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Dutchy
Is that really Darth Viscera requesting the U.N. to help America? :)

Is there a particular reason (apart from spite) you believe it unreasonable for the U.N. to help out in raising the standard of living in Iraq?


Anyway, looks like America isn't so mighty in Iraq, indeed.

Funny, I can well imagine you gloating in the same way on September 11. Obviously you don't fully comprehend the idea of a soft target.

[Telan Desaria]

Many if not most of my friends are american, so do not take this as a slight. But I think it is high time for America to be put in its place. By forcing the spread of democracy it is transforming itself under altruistic guises into a dominant power. It is forcing a governmental system into a plain where it was not intended. There are times where an intellectual minority needs to rule over an ignorant majority lest anarchy reign.

Perhaps Iraq will be the ground where the American eagle is finally tamed.

Note - Iraqi tank doctrine was stupid, I acknowledge. I would like to see a division's worth of combat-tried Soviet veterans engage the Abrams. Let us not forget Iosef Stalin's Maxim: quantity has a quality all its own. The Russians as a whole have over eight thousand main battle tanks. And most T-34s in service have been upgraded into nothing more than carrier systems, like munitionsschelppere (ammo carriers) and other chassis mounted systems.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
Is there a particular reason (apart from spite) you believe it unreasonable for the U.N. to help out in raising the standard of living in Iraq?

Nope.


Funny, I can well imagine you gloating in the same way on September 11. Obviously you don't fully comprehend the idea of a soft target.

Pointing to September 11 is not gonna help you here, I'm afraid. Ask George W.

[Darth Viscera]

Pointing to September 11? I thought I was pointing to soft targets? :lol

[JediBoricua]

Nobody expected the US to solve the iraqui crisis in a month or two (I know I didn't), but at least we expected some sort of plan.

Right now there is none. The new government is made of iraqis that left the country 20 or 30 years ago and the people who they try to govern do not recognize their authority, the shiites want the americans out, the suni want the americans out, Iran is infiltrating operatives, americans soldiers keep on dying, crime reigns the street, and neither Saddam nor the WMD have been found.

Meanwhile Dubya's popularity keeps on falling...If Dean wins the Dem nomination the election will turn into a War on Iraq referendum, instead of a presidential election.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
Nobody expected the US to solve the iraqui crisis in a month or two (I know I didn't), but at least we expected some sort of plan.

Right now there is none. The new government is made of iraqis that left the country 20 or 30 years ago and the people who they try to govern do not recognize their authority, the shiites want the americans out, the suni want the americans out, Iran is infiltrating operatives, americans soldiers keep on dying, crime reigns the street, and neither Saddam nor the WMD have been found.

Meanwhile Dubya's popularity keeps on falling...If Dean wins the Dem nomination the election will turn into a War on Iraq referendum, instead of a presidential election.

Woah now, you're rather eager with that panic switch. Remember, it took until 1947 to get West Germany's constitution up and running, and until 1949 to get East Germany's constitution up and running, and that wasn't even in the middle of a war. Give it 5 years, and if Iraq isn't a rebuilding state with a constitution by then, panic.

[imported_Marcus]

Iraq != debris that was Germany after WWII.

Iraq is still resonably intact and functional. Germany was a pock marked hole in the ground with absolutly nothing working after Berlin fell. Germany was utterly defeated and those who survived had no other intention other than to rebuild their lives and homes and bury dead. If anything, rebuilding a flattened and utterly defeated Germany was easier than the task of switching governments in Iraq. Boricua's points are 100% valid, there was a lack of planning and it is obivous the allied forces are treadign water - and just like Afghanistan, not doing much to truly help the situation.

I'm willing to be proven wrong, but there isnt much good news coming out of Iraq these days. Just more deaths and body bags.

[Senator Kensington]

Well, I think it was premature for Rummy to pull so many troops so quickly out like that. The Americans and Brits are fixing things. They are repairing powerlines and they are trying to get services back up, but there just aren't enough troops to guard those powerlines and services against those who wish to destroy what we are trying to do there.

Yes, it is an occupation. However, it would not be so bad if the UN or some other organization/nation sent help to aid in the governance. If we had gained unilateral support we wouldn't have these problems. With enough friendly forces, we could capture the Saddam loyalists and stop them before they ruin everything. We wouldn't need to stretch our forces so thin, but now that we've pulled so many troops out, we have to face this kind of problem. Americans shouldn't be shocked when they hear that their loved ones are going to be gone for another year.

Now we get back to the fundamental problem that our army is too small in the first place. Reserve units might be transformed into garrisons if it goes on like this.

[Darth Viscera]

We shouldn't have to have a much larger army than this, absent a world war. There are nearly 200+ member nations of the U.N., right? So when are they going to start contributing troops to the Iraqi nation?

Is it too much to ask that the rest of the world contribute? It shouldn't have to be the case that out of 6 billion people on Earth, only 600 million care what happens to those 25 million Iraqis.

[Darth Viscera]

It seems that we offered to guard the U.N. compound in Baghdad, but the U.N. declined that offer because they didn't want to be seen as taking sides with the Americans. hrmph.

[Jarek T'chort]

Way I see it, the Germans in '45 knew they were beaten like Marcus said. They had nothing left, nothing to fight for. For your average Iraqi, they still have a leader who is free, they have *in their view* been the victims of agression, their children have been shot at roadblocks. They see foreign troops running things, in control. They have EVERYTHING to fight for. Ironicaly, from that perspective, they fight for their freedom.

Now I'm not saying I'm totally anti our involvement in Iraq, clearly Saddam was a danger to his people, but I feel that the whole reason the bodybags are being filled up is because it seems the US belived too absolutely in its intelligence and millitary capabilities, i.e. their belief that WMD's and Saddam would be found, that the Iraqi resistance would roll over and die.

Right or wrong, all the war is resulting in so far is a terrible human cost.

[Dutchy]

Americans know how to win a war, but also how to lose peace.

[ReaperFett]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
It seems that we offered to guard the U.N. compound in Baghdad, but the U.N. declined that offer because they didn't want to be seen as taking sides with the Americans. hrmph.
That's a common sense move. Some people in Iraq do see the US as invaders, so the best thing to do is send the UN on it's own, not with the Americans supporting it.

[Park Kraken]

It seems the latest attacks, and maybe all of the recent attacks on US, and UN personnel had Al-Qaeda fingertips in it. I'm not the least bit suprised. If I were Saddam, I would have invited Al-Qaeda in the moment 911 happened, and from there, Saddam had plenty of time to get plenty of sleeper cells set up in Iraq. He probaly knew his army wouldn't stand a chance if and when the US invaded, so he decided to try to force a defeat by fighting a Vietnam style Gurellia War. And with American Troops dieing each day, this is slowly turning into a Vietnam style war. If this was Saddam's plan of attack, he may yet win this war.

[JediBoricua]

Nah, this ain't no Vietnam. You will not have 75,000 dead soldiers, but this will be a very long occupation.

Though I find it very ironic and somewhat insulting that the US now wants the UN's support. After making fun of the UN, saying it that not condoning the war would make it irrelevant, 'boycotting' french and german products, etc, now they want blue helmets in Iraq. A week after the war was over every political analyst backing the war said they did not want the UN in Iraq after the war was over, no UN intervention, the spoils of a new Iraq are for the 'willing'. Too bad those 150 polish chefs are no good in building infrastructure...

Anyway, you cannot compare the rebuilding of Germany with Iraq. WW2 utterly destroyed the country for almost a decade, there was a Marshall Plan instituted fairly quickly after the war and all the nations of the time chipped in. Iraq was a two month war, that killed only military personel but did not efectively eliminated all threats and/or opposition. It would be as rebuilding Germany with 10,000 or so stormtroopers running around unchecked and well armed.

Worst is the fact that these are Arab people with no democratic background. The germans are westeners, with a history of democracy (they did elect Hitler), they were a rich country and a powerful one. Iraq has no history of democracy, is a rich country with too many poor people, and has a different world view than us in the west. For them we are an occupation force, and the more time they go without water, they more they will see us as enemies. Having the government directed by exiles who have no connection with everyday citizens is only making matters worse.

Like I've said countless times before, I'm a patient man, but I need to see some well thought action...there is none that I'm aware.

[Commander Zemil Vymes]

Originally posted by Admiral Kraken
It seems the latest attacks, and maybe all of the recent attacks on US, and UN personnel had Al-Qaeda fingertips in it. I'm not the least bit suprised. If I were Saddam, I would have invited Al-Qaeda in the moment 911 happened, and from there, Saddam had plenty of time to get plenty of sleeper cells set up in Iraq. He probaly knew his army wouldn't stand a chance if and when the US invaded, so he decided to try to force a defeat by fighting a Vietnam style Gurellia War. And with American Troops dieing each day, this is slowly turning into a Vietnam style war. If this was Saddam's plan of attack, he may yet win this war.

This is the sound of your credibility bursting into flame.

[General Tohmahawk]

No Kraken, Al Qaeda is very, very unlieky to have anything to do wityh any bombings. If you had any idea about what is going on there, it is self evident it is local Iraqis.


We shouldn't have to have a much larger army than this, absent a world war. There are nearly 200+ member nations of the U.N., right? So when are they going to start contributing troops to the Iraqi nation?

Is it too much to ask that the rest of the world contribute? It shouldn't have to be the case that out of 6 billion people on Earth, only 600 million care what happens to those 25 million Iraqis.

Because those countries expressed doubts about the legitimacy of the war? Why should they contribute at all? This situation is not of their doing, the resposibility in intl law and moraly lies smack bang only with the allies who deposed the regime. It is NOT in the best interests of said countries and it's not even affecting them. You can try to twist it any way you want, but the facts are as I have stated. It's not their problem. It's the USA, Brits and aust problem, solely and squarely.

[Darth Viscera]

Right or wrong, all the war is resulting in so far is a terrible human cost.

You're wrong. Saddam's regime was murdering thousands of innocent Iraqis every month. No longer. It only had to cost us 3,500 civilian deaths and so far 200 or so American servicemen's lives, and that is a bargain investment. The war was an absolute good. How many Iraqis would Saddam have killed in the last 5 months for sedition or supposed treason if he were still in power? 60,000? 250,000? 3 million? Say, for example, a concentration camp during WW2 was guarded by an SS infantry division. Would you argue that we should leave it alone in order to "save lives", or would you advocate putting the sword to that SS infantry division and liberating the concentration camp?





Anyway, you cannot compare the rebuilding of Germany with Iraq. WW2 utterly destroyed the country for almost a decade, there was a Marshall Plan instituted fairly quickly after the war and all the nations of the time chipped in. Iraq was a two month war, that killed only military personel but did not efectively eliminated all threats and/or opposition. It would be as rebuilding Germany with 10,000 or so stormtroopers running around unchecked and well armed.

Either you're unaware of the Werewolves, or you've neglected to mention them because you believe I'm unaware of them. And last count, there were far more than 10,000 of them.


Despite its failure, however, the Werewolf project had a huge impact, widening the psychological and spiritual gap between Germans and their occupiers. Werewolf killings and intimidation of `collaborators' scared almost everybody, giving German civilians a clear glimpse into the nihilistic heart of Nazism. It was difficult for people working under threat of such violence to devote themselves unreservedly to the initial tasks of reconstruction. Worse still, the Allies and Soviets reacted to the movement with extremely tough controls, curtailing the right of assembly of German civilians. Challenges of any sort were met by collective reprisals -- especially on the part of the Soviets and the French. In a few cases the occupiers even shot hostages and cleared out towns where instances of sabotage occurred. It was standard practice for the Soviets to destroy whole communities if they faced a single act of resistance.





Why should they contribute at all?

Because these countries agreed to abide by the United Nations charter, which states in part:


WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED....
....
to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and
....
to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and
....
to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

AND FOR THESE ENDS
....
to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and
....
to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples,


There is no addendum which states:



*Save for when the United States spearheads movements to achieve the above. Those pompous bastards will get no help from us.

[Marcus Telcontar]

You didnt answer the question and are hiding behind a technicality. I ask again... why should anyone help clean up the Allies mess?

[Darth Viscera]

Because helping the Iraqi people was the right thing to do. Basic human principles, right and wrong. You see someone in trouble, you stop to assist them. No matter what country you're from, helping the Iraqi people is the right thing to do. It's as simple as black and white.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Oh yeah.

So why wasnt anyone helping them 12 years ago? Why aint we all in North Korea? why aint we forcing the warring parties in Israel to part?

Where was the UN though 20 years of Indonesian murder and torture in East Timor? Where are the UN in Burma or Tibet.... or Guatanamo bay where the USA are denying basic rights to possible innocents?


Dont give me this cause it's the right thing nonsense. The UN wasnt set up to intervene in a soverign country. In fact the UN charter explicitly forbits that without permission (mandate). The Allies intervened without a mndate, now they are solely resposible for what remains. You dont seem to understand that, do you? The UN treaties and Intl law even states that. It is not anyone else's resposibility.

And Boricua is 100% right

[quote Though I find it very ironic and somewhat insulting that the US now wants the UN's support. After making fun of the UN, saying it that not condoning the war would make it irrelevant, 'boycotting' french and german products, etc, now they want blue helmets in Iraq. A week after the war was over every political analyst backing the war said they did not want the UN in Iraq after the war was over, no UN intervention, the spoils of a new Iraq are for the 'willing'. Too bad those 150 polish chefs are no good in building infrastructure.. [/quote]

You dealt the hand, now live with it. You have no moral or legal right to insist anyone comes in to help. It the Allies mess 100%

[ReaperFett]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera Because these countries agreed to abide by the United Nations charter, which states in part:


You didn't care about the UN when they were disagreeing before the war.



WE went in without the UN's authorisation. WE should clear the mess up.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Marcus Elessar
So why wasnt anyone helping them 12 years ago? Why aint we all in North Korea? why aint we forcing the warring parties in Israel to part?

I wish we were.


possible innocents

Highly improbable. We wouldn't waste money on possible innocents.


You dealt the hand, now live with it. You have no moral or legal right to insist anyone comes in to help. It the Allies mess 100%

If the world turns its back on the Iraqi people, it won't be the Americans they're spiting. Would you be willing to condemn the Iraqis to prove a point or win a big international argument? It's petty, it's a classically european snob mentality, and it's wrong.

[JediBoricua]

Ugh...I didn't know about the werewolves...still Hitler was dead, Saddam is still running around, plotting and giving the faintest glimpse of hope to his loyalists.


It's petty, it's a classically european snob mentality, and it's wrong.

It could be, but it is also a political move. In the US it was a political move to attack, in most of the european countries it is a political move not to send any aid now. The fact is that any country that sends military personel to Iraq will suffer some losses, inconsecuential losses in numbers, but with a huge effect on the public opinion. How will Chirac look to the french if he is to now send a legion or two on harm's way, to clear a mess they opposed since the beggining and of which they had no part in.

Really it's all simple politics, there is no right or wrong there.

I'm a not a bad person, now that the war is over I want the US to be right, I want to be wrong. I would like to see a reconstructed, democratic, vigorous Iraq. But I understand how the leadership of the opposing countries feel, you can't tell those same countries that you mocked, that you downplayed, that you threatened, to now come to your aid and save your <font color=ff00ff>NOTHING SAYS I'M COOL AND CURSE LIKE BIG ANNOYING PURPLE TEXT</font> because you chew more than you could swallow. Sorry it won't happen.

The US/UK started it, now they should end it. The UN charter says everything you quoted, but I believe that for it to apply the UN should have condoned an invasion and a regime change. Still the way the US is asking the UN to intervene is a bit pompous. They are to intervene only to give aid, no interference in building a government and no real decision making power on military issues. So they are just a really really big Red Cross with blue helmets?

Once again, the 2004 election will be an Iraqi Freedom referendum (depending on who the Dems pic is that is).

[Park Kraken]

We all know how the UN works, and why it wanted to go into Iraq in the first place. Let them get a sniff of the oil, and they'll come like dogs to their master's call.
We are the greatest nation in the world. We could use all of our power, and do whatever we want, but we use our power to help others less fortunate. Take for example: The Allied Powers (WW1), supplying the Allies with Arms (early WW2), helping the Allies defeat Hitler (WW2), save South Korea (Korean War), try to save Vietnam (Vietnam War), save Kuwait (Gulf War), save Bosnians, and now were are trying to save the Iraqi population. The only reason the UN refused to help was because they believed that Saddam didn't have any WMD, and that we were in it for the oil. And they debated long enough to buy Saddam time to get rid of his WMD, and now the UN......well, I'm sure you can figure out the rest for yourselves.

[Telan Desaria]

There are no ghastly casualties in this war and I wish people would stop saying people are paying such a high price. You people ahve forgotten what a real war costs, haven't you?

The Fatherland - 5.7 million dead in one war

The Motherland - 68 million dead not counting the gulag

This has been a costless, easy campaign from military viewpoints. To occupy a country is to assume control over its every aspect. The Iraqis though I laud their gallantry are a beaten people. And If the American government is not wlling to accept the costs of occupying a sovreign nation and wishes to continue crying over no more than half a battalion dead - total - then it should not engage in war!

I am an officer and come from a family of warriors. I have shed blood and seen friends die, so feel I can have this opinion. I can also separate myself from my emotions, however.

[Park Kraken]

Oh yes, I agree it is a small cost. Our total KIA hasn't even hit a hundred yet (I think).

[Wei Wu Wei]

This has been a costless, easy campaign from military viewpoints.

Telan, have you read The Art of War by Sun Tzu? Cause that sounds like a paraphrase out of a part of his book. Sun Tzu stressed that a military campaign must acheive 3 things in order to be successful:

1) The campaign must be as inexpensive as possible.

2) There must be as few casualties as possible.

3) The campaign must not be prolonged.

If these 3 rules define a successful campaign, then I think America has been largely successful. Telan, you said it yourself that there have been few casualties, and the campaign has been more or less costless. I wouldn't know how to judge whether or not this current campaign has been prolonged, though.

[Darth Viscera]

o.O

Since when have you seen the U.S. government crying over 200 killed in action in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom?

Battalions are a lot larger than 400 men. There are probably 35,000 men per division on average. A mechanized division has 5 mechanized battalions and 5 tank battalions, and an armored division has 4 mechanized battalions and 6 tank battalions. Last time a U.S. battalion had 400 men must have been the battle of Five Forks.

[JediBoricua]

I don't think this is an issue of how many dead, but the fact that there are americans dying.

In Somalia the US only lost a dozen or so (don't remember the exact figure), yet those few losses turn public opinion against US forces there and they were retired. Like Somalia, Iraq was (or is) an unpopular war for a fairly large margin of the population, and if young american boys keep returning home in body bags, that fairly large part of the population will get noisier, and the president could have a big problem here at home.

On other news, I read today that some US forces are using confiscated AK-47's to patrol the streets in Iraq. These are mostly tank operators and other mechanized units soldiers who are now asigned to patrol and police small streets and towns, places where their tanks can't go. Normally a tank operator is only issued a 9mm since he/she we'll be inside the tank most of the time, but now they are doing other kinds of mission and they need the rifles.

This brings the question, is teh US unmanned in Iraq. We know for a fact they are extremely efficient in invading a country, but how prepared are servicemen to govern an invaded country? Are there any divisions specialized in Civil Affairs, Police Work, etc or are these jobs being handled by infantry trained to fight?

[Darth Viscera]

I'm sure our boys could be proficient with an AK-47 as a substitute weapon, considering their training. There are instructors in the U.S. Armed Forces who instruct on the operation of such foreign weapons.

I know there are Civil Affairs battalions, but to my knowledge there are not Civil Affairs divisions. I agree with what you seem to be leaning towards, the U.S. Armed Forces needs an outfit that's half peace corps, half light infantry, guys who are trained in counter-guerilla warfare and pacifying a country and making it livable again. Though maybe that would have to be 2 units, as I'm not sure you could order a guy to guard against guerillas 8 hours a day, and fix a power generator the other 8 hours.

[JediBoricua]

Sure they are proficiente with the 47's, as a matter of fact some said they like them more than their M-16's because they require less maintenance and are much better weapons for close quarter engagements (i'm quoting because I know nothing about guns).

[Darth Viscera]

London is out of electricity, blackouts. I hope that this isn't Al Qaeda trying to commit a copycat crime.

[Commander Zemil Vymes]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
Sure they are proficiente with the 47's, as a matter of fact some said they like them more than their M-16's because they require less maintenance and are much better weapons for close quarter engagements (i'm quoting because I know nothing about guns).

These are old wives tales spun in Vietnam around the M16A1. Successive generations are pretty much a sturdy workhorse.

As for close quarters, the carbine spawns off the M16 design win.

[Wei Wu Wei]

I remember when New York had a blackout. It lasted almost an entire day. They said that it wasn't the terrorists. Now London gets a blackout. It's odd.

[JediBoricua]

Perhaps, but i'm just quoting from the yahoo article. Never had a gun in my hand, so what the hell should I know.

[Telan Desaria]

The Ak-47 is very similar to the American m-16A1 in construction and can easily be wielded by a man trained in the latter.

An no, the American Army has no Civil Affairs Divisions. It does not even - per se - have battalions thereof. There are grouped into parts of headquarter companies attached to divisional command staffs.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
Perhaps, but i'm just quoting from the yahoo article. Never had a gun in my hand, so what the hell should I know.

M-16's also significantly lighter, and is chambered to 5.56 (.223) rather than the AK (and NATO standard) 7.62 (.308), which results in much less recoil.

[ReaperFett]

I remember when New York had a blackout. It lasted almost an entire day. They said that it wasn't the terrorists. Now London gets a blackout. It's odd.

Bush gets one, Blair wants one. He just felt left out :)

[Commander Zemil Vymes]

YES, ITS OBVIOUSLY TERRISM

[Darth Viscera]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/10/23/sprj.irq.main/index.html

Score one for Anny! I smell a massive public relations coup in our favor.


"The people of Iraq have a hard road ahead of them, filled with both risk and opportunity," Annan said at the opening of the summit Thursday. "Let us not leave them to travel that road alone." .....
"The long-term challenge of reconstruction has to be faced by all of us," Annan said. "The assessment prepared by the United Nations and the World Bank depicts a country with reconstruction needs on a monumental scale."

Sock! Boom! Right in the kisser! Someone give this man a nobel prize!

[Dutchy]

U.S. Says 13 Killed in Iraq Chopper Crash (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031102/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_helicopter&cid=540&ncid=716)

Numbers seem to go up, instead of down...

[Dutchy]

U.S. Says 13 Killed in Iraq Chopper Crash (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031102/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_helicopter&cid=540&ncid=716)

Numbers seem to go up, instead of down...

[Dutchy]

Death toll has risen to 15.

[Jedieb]

I believe it's up to 19 for the day now with more wounded.

[Jedieb]

TOTAL US wounded in Iraq since March 20th: 2149

Iraq Coalition Casualties

433 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) Not reported yet US
432 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) Not reported yet US
431 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) Not reported yet US
430 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) Not reported yet US
429 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) Not reported yet US
428 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) Not reported yet US
427 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) Not reported yet US
426 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) Not reported yet US
425 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) Not reported yet US
424 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) Not reported yet US
423 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) Not reported yet US
422 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) Not reported yet US
421 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) Not reported yet US
420 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) Not reported yet US
419 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) Not reported yet US
418 11/02/03 Velasquez, Paul A. Staff Sergeant 29 Army 2nd Bat., 5th Field Art. Reg., III Corps Artillery Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Fallujah (near) California US
417 11/02/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 1st Armored Division Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Baghdad Not reported yet US
416 11/01/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Mosul Not reported yet US
415 11/01/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Mosul Not reported yet US
414 10/31/03 NAME NOT RELEASED YET Not reported yet Army 82nd Airborne Division Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Khaldiyah Not reported yet US
413 10/28/03 Campoy, Isaac Specialist 21 Army 3rd Bat., 67th Armored Reg., 4th Inf. Div. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Balad (near) Douglas Arizona US
412 10/28/03 Barrera, Michael Paul Sergeant 26 Army 3rd Bat., 67th Armored Reg., 4th Inf. Div. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Balad (near) Von Ormy Texas US
411 10/28/03 Adams, Algernon Private 36 Army National Guard 122nd Engineer Battalion Non-hostile - weapon discharge Fallujah Aiken South Carolina US
410 10/27/03 Falaniko, Jonathan I. Private 20 Army A Co., 70th Engineer Bat., 1st Armored Div. Hostile - hostile fire - car bomb?/RP grenade? Baghdad Pago Pago American Samoa US
409 10/27/03 Bell, Aubrey D. Sergeant 33 Army National Guard 214th Military Police Company Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Baghdad Tuskegee Alabama US
408 10/26/03 Acosta, Steven Private 1st Class 19 Army C Co., 3rd Bat., 67th Arm'd. Reg., 4th Inf. Div. Non-hostile - weapon discharge Baqubah Calexico California US
407 10/26/03 Huggins, Jamie L. Staff Sergeant 26 Army C Co., 2nd Bat., 325th Inf. Reg., 82nd AB Div. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Baghdad Hume Missouri US
406 10/26/03 Puga Gandar, Luis Sergeant 29 Spanish Army Non-hostile - weapon discharge (accid.) Ad Diwaniya Spain SP
405 10/26/03 Buehring, Charles H. Lieutenant Colonel 40 Army Army Central Command Hdqrs. (Forward) Hostile - hostile fire - rocket attack Baghdad Fayetteville North Carolina US
404 10/26/03 Bosveld, Rachel K. Private 1st Class 19 Army 527th Military Police Company, V Corps Hostile - hostile fire - mortar attack Abu Ghuraib Prison, Baghdad Waupun Wisconsin US
403 10/26/03 Guerrera, Joseph R. Private 20 Army C Co., 2nd Bat., 325th Inf. Reg., 82nd AB Div. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Baghdad Dunn North Carolina US
402 10/24/03 Hancock, Michael S. Sergeant 29 Army 1st Bat., 320th Field Artillery Regiment Hostile - hostile fire Mosul Yreka California US
401 10/24/03 Mora, Jose L. Specialist 26 Army C Co., 1st Bat., 12th Inf. Reg., 4th Inf. Div. Hostile - hostile fire - mortar attack Samarra (near) Bell Gardens California US
400 10/24/03 Brassfield, Artimus D. Specialist 22 Army B Co., 1st Bat., 66th Armored Reg., 4th ID Hostile - hostile fire - mortar attack Samarra (near) Flint Michigan US
399 10/23/03 Teal, John R. Captain 31 Army 2nd Brigade, 4th Infantry Division Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Ba’qubah Mechanicsville Virginia US
398 10/22/03 Johnson, John P. Specialist 24 Army 2nd Bat., 6th Inf. Reg., 1st Armored Div. Non-hostile - illness Baghdad Houston Texas US
397 10/22/03 Ward, Jason M. Private 25 Army 2nd Bat., 70th Armored Reg., 1st Armored Div. Non-hostile - illness Baghdad Tulsa Oklahoma US
396 10/21/03 Bueche, Paul J. Private 1st Class 19 Army National Guard 131st Aviation Regiment Non-hostile - maintenance accident Balad Daphne Alabama US
395 10/20/03 Johnson, Paul J. Staff Sergeant 29 Army 1st Bat., 505th Para Inf. Reg., 82nd AB Div. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Fallujah Calumet Michigan US
394 10/18/03 Bernstein, David R. 1st Lieutenant 24 Army 1st Bat. (AB), 508th Inf. Reg., 173rd Inf. Brig. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Taza (W of Kirkuk) Phoenixville Pennsylvania US
393 10/18/03 Hart, John D. Private 1st Class 20 Army 1st Bat. (AB), 508th Inf. Reg., 173rd Inf. Brig. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Taza (W of Kirkuk) Bedford Massachusetts US
392 10/17/03 Williams, Michael L. Specialist 46 Army National Guard 105th Military Police Company Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Baghdad Buffalo New York US
391 10/16/03 Grilley, Sean R. Corporal 24 Army 716th M.P. Bat., 101st Airborne Div. (Air Assault) Hostile - hostile fire Karbala San Bernardino California US
390 10/16/03 Bellavia, Joseph P. Staff Sergeant 28 Army 716th M.P. Bat., 101st Airborne Div. (Air Assault) Hostile - hostile fire Karbala Wakefield Massachusetts US
389 10/16/03 Orlando, Kim S. Lieutenant Colonel 43 Army 716th M.P. Bat., 101st Airborne Div. (Air Assault) Hostile - hostile fire Karbala Tennessee US
388 10/13/03 Freeman, Benjamin L. Private 19 Army K Trp., 3rd Squ., 3rd Armored Cavalry Reg. Non-hostile - drowning Al Asad (near) Valdosta Georgia US
387 10/13/03 Weismantle, Douglas J. Specialist 28 Army H&H Co., 1st Bat., 325th AB Inf. Reg., 82nd AB Non-hostile - vehicle accident Baghdad Pittsburgh Pennsylvania US
386 10/13/03 Wheeler, Donald L. Specialist 22 Army A Co., 1st Bat., 22nd Infantry Reg., 4th Inf. Div. Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Tikrit Concord Michigan US
385 10/13/03 Wyatt, Stephen E. Private 1st Class 19 Army C Batt., 1st Bat., 17th Field Artillery Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Jalyula (southeast of) Kilgore Texas US
384 10/13/03 Casanova, Jose Private 1st Class 23 Army H&H Co., 1st Bat., 325th AB Inf. Reg., 82nd AB Non-hostile - vehicle accident Baghdad El Monte California US
383 10/12/03 Powell, James E. Specialist 26 Army B Co., 1st Bat., 22nd Inf. Reg., 4th Inf. Div. Hostile - hostile fire - mine Bayji (NW of) Radcliff Kentucky US
382 10/09/03 Bernal Gomez, Jose Antonio Sergeant 34 Spanish Air Force National Intelligence Center Hostile - hostile fire Baghdad Spain SP
381 10/09/03 Silva, Sean A. Private 23 Army 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Baghdad Roseville California US
380 10/09/03 Swisher, Christopher W. Staff Sergeant 26 Army 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Baghdad Lincoln Nebraska US
379 10/09/03 Norquist, Joseph C. Specialist 26 Army 588th Engineer Bat., 4th Infantry Div. Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Ba’qubah San Antonio Texas US
378 10/06/03 Torres, Richard 2nd Lieutenant 25 Army 32nd Infantry Regiment, 10th Mountain Division Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Baghdad (west of) Clarksville Tennessee US
377 10/06/03 Karol, Spencer Timothy Specialist 20 Army 165th Military Intelligence, V Corps Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Al Haswah Woodruff Arizona US
376 10/06/03 Scott, Kerry D. Private 1st Class 21 Army 1st Bat., 32nd Inf. Reg., 10th Mountain Div. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Al Haswah (south of Baghdad) Mount Vernon Washington US
375 10/03/03 Pirtle, James H. Specialist 27 Army 2nd Battalion, 8th Infantry Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - grenade Sadiyah La Mesa New Mexico US
374 10/03/03 Sims, Charles M. Private 1st Class 18 Army 549th Military Police Company Non-hostile - drowning Baghdad Miami Florida US
373 10/01/03 Blankenbecler, James D. Command Sergeant 40 Army 1st Battalion, 44th Air Defense Artillery Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Tikrit (near) Alexandria Virginia US
372 10/01/03 Gutierrez, Analaura Esparza Private 1st Class 21 Army 4th Forward Support Battalion Hostile - hostile fire - grenade Samarra (vicinity) Houston Texas US
371 10/01/03 Hunte, Simeon Specialist 23 Army 13th Armored Regiment, 3rd Brigade Combat Team Hostile - hostile fire Baghdad (Al Mansour) Essex New Jersey US
370 09/30/03 McGaugh, Dustin K. Specialist 20 Army 17th Field Artillery Brigade Non-hostile - weapon discharge Balad Derby Kansas US
369 09/30/03 Koidan, Yuri Senior Sergeant 23 Ukrainian Army Headquarters, 5 Separate Mechanized Brigade Non-hostile - vehicle accident El-Kut airport Chernigov Region Ukraine UK
368 09/29/03 Parker, Kristian E. Private 1st Class 23 Army National Guard 205th Engineer Battalion Non-hostile - non-combat related injuries Qatar (Camp AS Sayliyah) Slidell Louisiana US
367 09/29/03 Potter, Darrin K. Sergeant 24 Army 223rd Military Police Company Hostile - vehicle accident Abu Ghurayb Prison (nr,), Iraq Louisville Kentucky US
366 09/29/03 Baddick, Andrew Joseph Sergeant 26 Army 1st Battalion, 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment Hostile - vehicle accident Abu Ghurayb Prison (nr,) Jim Thorpe Pennsylvania US
365 09/29/03 Cutchall, Christopher E. Staff Sergeant 30 Army Delta Troop, 4th Cavalry Hostile - hostile fire Al Habbaniyah McConnellsburg Pennsylvania US
364 09/25/03 Rooney, Robert E. Sergeant 1st Class 43 Army National Guard 379th Engineer Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Shuabai Port Nashua New Hampshire US
363 09/25/03 Thomas, Kyle G. Specialist 23 Army 2nd Bat., 503rd Inf. Reg., 173rd Airborne Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Kirkuk/Tikrit? Topeka Kansas US
362 09/25/03 Lucero, Robert L. Captain 34 Army National Guard 4th Inf. Div. Rear Area Ops Ctr. Hostile - hostile fire - bomb Tikrit Casper Wyoming US
361 09/24/03 Andrade, Michael Specialist 28 Army National Guard 115th Military Police Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Balad Bristol Rhode Island US
360 09/23/03 Nightingale, John Sergeant 32 British Territorial Army 217 Transport Squ., 150 Reg., Royal Log. Corps Non-hostile - weapon discharge Shaibah (nr. Basra) Leeds England UK
359 09/22/03 Sturino, Paul J. Specialist 21 Army B Batt., 2nd Bat., 320th Field Artil. Reg. Non-hostile - weapon discharge Quest (S. of Mosul) Rice Lake Wisconsin US
358 09/20/03 Miller Jr., Frederick L. Staff Sergeant 27 Army Troop K, 3rd Sqdrn., 3rd Armored Cav. Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Ar Ramadi Hagerstown Indiana US
357 09/20/03 Brown II, Lunsford B. Specialist 27 Army A Co., 302nd Military Intelligence Bat. Hostile - hostile fire - mortar rounds Abu Ghurayb Prison Creedmore North Carolina US
356 09/20/03 Friedrich, David Travis Sergeant 26 Army Reserve B Co., 325th Military Intelligence Bat. Hostile - hostile fire - mortar rounds Abu Ghurayb Prison Hammond New York US
355 09/18/03 Arriaga, Richard Specialist 20 Army H&H Batt., 4th Bat., 42nd Field Artil. Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Al Ouja (nr. Tikrit) Ganado Texas US
354 09/18/03 Thompson, Anthony O. Sergeant 26 Army H&H Batt., 4th Bat., 42nd Field Artil. Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Al Ouja (nr. Tikrit) Orangeburg South Carolina US
353 09/18/03 Faunce, Brian R. Captain 28 Army H&H Co., 3rd Brigade Combat Team Non-hostile - electrocution Ad Dujayl (1 mi. S.) Philadelphia Pennsylvania US
352 09/18/03 Wright, James C Specialist 27 Army H&H Batt., 4th Bat., 42nd Field Artil. Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Al Ouja (nr. Tikrit) Morgan Texas US
351 09/15/03 Peterson, Alyssa R. Specialist 27 Army C Co., 311th Mil. Intel. Bat., 101st Airborne Non-hostile - weapon discharge Telafar Flagstaff Arizona US
350 09/15/03 Kimmerly, Kevin C. Staff Sergeant 31 Army B Batt., 4th Bat., 27th Field Artillery Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Baghdad North Creek New York US
349 09/14/03 Blumberg, Trevor A. Sergeant 22 Army 1st Bat., 504th Para Inf. Reg., 82nd Airborne Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Fallujah Canton Michigan US
348 09/12/03 Morehead, Kevin N. Master Sergeant 33 Army 3rd Bat., 5th Special Forces Group Hostile - hostile fire Ar Ramadi Little Rock Arkansas US
347 09/12/03 Bennett, William M. Sergeant 1st Class 35 Army 3rd Bat., 5th Special Forces Group Hostile - hostile fire Ar Ramadi Seymour Tennessee US
346 09/11/03 Ybarra III, Henry Sergeant 32 Army D Troop, 6th Squadron, 6th Cavalry Non-hostile - vehicle accident Balad Austin Texas US
345 09/10/03 Robsky Jr., Joseph E. Staff Sergeant 31 Army 759th Ordnance Company Non-hostile - ordnance accident Baghdad Elizaville New York US
344 09/09/03 Carlock, Ryan G. Specialist 25 Army 416th Transp. Co., 260th Qrtrmstr. Bat. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Baghdad (NE of) Macomb Illinois US
343 09/07/03 Thompson, Jarrett B. Specialist 27 Army Reserve 946th Transportation Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Walter Reed, Washington DC Dover Delaware US
342 09/04/03 Brown, Bruce E. Technical Sergeant 32 Air Force 78th Logistics Readiness Squadron Non-hostile - vehicle accident Al Udeid (near) Coatopa Alabama US
341 09/02/03 Sisson, Christopher A. Private 1st Class 20 Army 3rd Bat., 325th Parachute Infantry Reg. Non-hostile - helicopter crash Camp Dogwood (S. of Baghdad) Oak Park Illinois US
340 09/01/03 Caldwell, Charles Todd Sergeant 38 Army National Guard 115th Military Police Company Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Baghdad (south of) North Providence Rhode Island US
339 09/01/03 Camara, Joseph Staff Sergeant 40 Army National Guard 115th Military Police Company Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Baghdad (south of) New Bedford Massachusetts US
338 09/01/03 Sarno, Cameron B. Staff Sergeant 43 Army Reserve 257th Transportation Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Kuwait City Waipahu Hawaii US
337 08/30/03 Cataudella, Sean K. Sergeant 28 Army 1st Sqdr., 10th Cav. Reg., 4th Inf. Div. Non-hostile - drowning Tikrit (near) Tucson Arizona US
336 08/29/03 Lawton, Mark A. Staff Sergeant 41 Army Reserve 244th Engineer Battalion Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade As Suaydat (nr. Baqubah) Hayden Colorado US
335 08/27/03 Sherman, Anthony L. Lieutenant Colonel 43 Army Reserve 304th Civil Affairs Brigade Non-hostile - illness Camp Arifjan Pottstown Pennsylvania US
334 08/27/03 Belanger, Gregory A. Sergeant 24 Army Reserve H&H Co., 325th Military Intelligence Battalion Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Baghdad Narragansett Rhode Island US
333 08/27/03 Navea, Rafael L. Specialist 34 Army C Batt., 2nd Bat., 5th Field Artillery Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Al Fallujah Pittsburgh Pennsylvania US
332 08/27/03 Beeston, Russell Fusilier 26 British Territorial Army 52nd Lowland Regiment (Reserve Unit) Hostile - hostile fire Ali As Sharqi Govan Scotland UK
331 08/26/03 Dent, Darryl T. Specialist 21 Army National Guard 547th Transportation Co. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Hamamiyat (15 mi. N. of Baghdad) Washington Dist. of Columbia US
330 08/25/03 Manzano, Pablo Private 1st Class 19 Army B Co., 54th Engineer Battalion, V Corps Non-hostile - weapon discharge Baghdad (15 mi. south) Heber California US
329 08/25/03 Allen Jr., Ronald D. Specialist 22 Army 502nd Pers. Serv. Bat., 43rd Area Spt. Grp. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Balad (near) Mitchell Indiana US
328 08/23/03 Scott, Stephen M. Specialist 21 Army H&H Trp., 2nd Squadron, 3rd Armored Cav. Reg. Non-hostile - weapon discharge Baghdad Lawton Oklahoma US
327 08/23/03 Pritchard, Dewi Corporal 35 British Territorial Army 116 Provost Co., Royal Mil. Police (Res. Unit) Hostile - hostile fire Basra Bridgend Wales UK
326 08/23/03 Wall, Colin Warrant Officer 34 British Army 150 Provost Co., Royal Military Police Hostile - hostile fire Basra Crawleyside England UK
325 08/23/03 Titchener, Matthew Major 32 British Army 150 Provost Co., Royal Military Police Hostile - hostile fire Basra Southport England UK
324 08/23/03 Mack, Vorn J. Private 1st Class 19 Army H&H Trp., 1st Squadron, 3rd Armored Cav. Reg. Non-hostile - drowning Ar Ramadi (west of) Orangeburg South Carolina US
323 08/21/03 Jones-Huffman, Kylan A. Lieutenant 31 Naval reserve 1st Marine Exped. Force (temp. duty) Hostile - hostile fire Al Hillah Aptos California US
322 08/21/03 Adams, Michael S. Private 1st Class 20 Army 1st Bat., 35th Armor Reg., 1st Armored Div. Non-hostile - building fire Baghdad Spartanburg South Carolina US
321 08/20/03 Franklin, Bobby C. Staff Sergeant 38 Army National Guard 210th Military Police Company Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Baghdad Mineral Bluff Georgia US
320 08/20/03 Martin-Oar, Manuel Captain Spanish Navy Hostile - hostile fire - bomb Baghdad Spain SP
319 08/20/03 Harris Jr., Kenneth W. Specialist 23 Army Reserve 212th Transportation Company Hostile - vehicle accident Scania Charlotte Tennessee US
318 08/18/03 Hull, Eric R. Specialist 23 Army Reserve 307th Military Police Company Hostile - hostile fire - bomb Baghdad Uniontown Pennsylvania US
317 08/17/03 Pedersen, Preben Overcorporal 1st Class 34 Danish Army Jutland Dragoon Regiment Hostile - friendly fire Al Madinah Vra Denmark DK
316 08/17/03 Ivory, Craig S. Specialist 26 Army 501st Forward Spt. Co., 173rd Airborne Non-hostile - illness - heat related Homberg Univ. Hospital Port Matilda Pennsylvania US
315 08/14/03 Kirchhoff, David M. Private 1st Class 31 Army National Guard 2133rd Transportation Company Non-hostile - illness - heatstroke Landstuhl Anamosa Iowa US
314 08/14/03 Jones, David Martyn Captain 29 British Army 1st Bat., The Queens Lancashire Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - bomb Basra Louth England UK
313 08/13/03 White, Steven W. Sergeant 29 Army H&H Batt., 4th Bat., 42nd Field Artillery Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - bomb Ad Dwar (near Tikrit) Lawton Oklahoma US
312 08/13/03 Smith, Jason Private 32 British Territorial Army 52nd Lowland Regiment (Reserve Unit) Non-hostile - illness - heat related Southern part Hawick Scotland UK
311 08/12/03 Parker, Daniel R. Private 1st Class 18 Army B Batt., 2nd Bat., 44th Air Def. Reg., 101st Non-hostile - vehicle accident Mosul Lake Elsinore California US
310 08/12/03 Brown Jr., Timmy R. Private 1st Class 21 Army D Co., 519th Military Intelligence Battalion Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Al Taji (near) Conway Pennsylvania US
309 08/12/03 Eaton Jr., Richard S. Staff Sergeant 37 Army Reserve 323rd Military Intelligence Battalion Non-hostile - illness - heat related? Ar Ramadi Guilford Connecticut US
308 08/12/03 Williams, Taft V. Sergeant 29 Army 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Ar Ramadi (near) New Orleans Louisiana US
307 08/10/03 Perry, David S. Staff Sergeant 36 Army National Guard 649th Military Police Company Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Ba’qubah Bakersfield California US
306 08/09/03 Kinchen, Levi B. Specialist 21 Army 2nd Armored Cavalry Reg. Non-hostile - illness - died in sleep Baghdad Tickfaw Louisiana US
305 08/09/03 Knighten Jr., Floyd G. Sergeant 55 Army National Guard 1087th Transportation Support Co. Non-hostile - illness - heat related Ad Diwaniyah (north of) Olla Louisiana US
304 08/08/03 Ramsey, Brandon Private 1st Class 21 Army National Guard 933rd Military Police Company Hostile - vehicle accident Tallil Calumet City Illinois US
303 08/08/03 Bush, Matthew D. Private 20 Army F Troop, 1st Squadron, 10th Armored Cav. Non-hostile - illness - heat related? Camp Caldwell East Alton Illinois US
302 08/07/03 Longstreth, Duane E. Private 1st Class 19 Army B Co., 307th Engineer Battalion Non-hostile - weapon discharge (accid.) Baghdad Tacoma Washington US
301 08/06/03 Hellerman, Brian R. Staff Sergeant 35 Army C Co., 2nd Bat., 325th Para. Reg., 82nd Airborne Div. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Baghdad Freeport Minnesota US
300 08/06/03 Simmons, Leonard D. Sergeant 33 Army C Co., 3rd Bat., 512nd Inf. Reg., 101st Airborne Div. Non-hostile - illness - seizure Mosul New Bern North Carolina US
299 08/06/03 Colunga, Zeferino E. Specialist 20 Army 4th Squadron, 2nd Armored Cavalry Reg. Non-hostile - illness - acute leukemia Homburg Hospital Bellville Texas US
298 08/06/03 Gilbert, Kyle C. Private 20 Army C Co., 2nd Bat., 325th Para Reg., 82nd Airborne Div. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Baghdad Brattleboro Vermont US
297 08/05/03 Letufuga, Farao K. Specialist 20 Army H&H Co., 3rd Bat., 327th Inf. Reg., 101st Airborne Non-hostile - accidental fall Mosul Pago Pago American Samoa US
296 08/05/03 Loyd, David L. Staff Sergeant 44 Army National Guard 1175th Transportation Co., Tenn. ANG Non-hostile - illness - heart attack? Not reported Jackson Tennessee US
295 08/01/03 Hebert, Justin W. Specialist 20 Army 319th Field Art., 173rd Airborne Brigade Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Shumayt (south of) Arlington Washington US
294 07/31/03 Lambert III, James I. Specialist 22 Army 407th Combat Support Battalion Non-hostile - weapon discharge (accid.) Baghdad Raleigh North Carolina US
293 07/31/03 Deutsch, Michael J. Private 21 Army 1st Squadron, 1st Armored Cavalry Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - bomb Baghdad Dubuque Iowa US
292 07/30/03 Nott, Leif E. 1st Lieutenant 24 Army A Troop, 1st Battalion, 10th Cavalry Hostile - hostile fire Belaruz Cheyenne Wyoming US
291 07/28/03 Hart Jr., Nathaniel Sergeant 29 Army 416th Transp. Co., 260th Qtrmstr. Bat. Non-hostile - vehicle accident An Nasiriyah (near) Valdosta Georgia US
290 07/28/03 Maher III, William J. Specialist 35 Army H&H Co., 1st Bat., 36th Inf., 1st Armored Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Baghdad Yardley Pennsylvania US
289 07/27/03 McMillin, Heath A. Sergeant 29 Army National Guard 105th Military Police Company Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Al Haswah Canandaigua New York US
288 07/26/03 Cheatham, Jonathan M. Private 1st Class 19 Army Reserve 489th Engineer Battalion Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Baghdad Camden Arkansas US
287 07/26/03 Perez Jr., Wilfredo Specialist 24 Army H&H Co., 1st Bat., 67th Armor, 4th Inf Div Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Ba’qubah Norwalk Connecticut US
286 07/26/03 Methvin, Daniel K. Sergeant 22 Army H&H Co., 1st Bat., 67th Armor, 4th Inf Div Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Ba’qubah Belton Texas US
285 07/26/03 Barnes, Jonathan P. Specialist 21 Army H&H Co., 1st Bat., 67th Armor, 4th Inf Div Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Ba’qubah Anderson Missouri US
284 07/24/03 Heighter, Raheen Tyson Private 1st Class 22 Army 2-320th Field Artillery Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Mosul Bay Shore New York US
283 07/24/03 Serrano, Juan M. Sergeant 31 Army H&H Co., 1st Bat., 37th Armor, 1st A Div. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Baghdad Manati Puerto Rico US
282 07/24/03 Perez, Hector R. Staff Sergeant 40 Army Co. A, 1st Bat., 327th Inf., 101st Airborne Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Mosul Corpus Christi Texas US
281 07/24/03 Ashcraft, Evan Asa Corporal 24 Army Co. A, 1st Bat., 327th Inf., 101st Airborne Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Mosul West Hills California US
280 07/23/03 Byers, Joshua T. Captain 29 Army Hqtrs. Troop, 2nd Bat., 3rd Armored Cav. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Baghdad Mountville South Carolina US
279 07/23/03 Christian, Brett T. Specialist 27 Army Co. C, 2nd Bat., 502 Inf., 101st Airborne Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Mosul North Royalton Ohio US
278 07/22/03 Fettig, Jon P. Specialist 30 Army National Guard 957th Engineer Company (V Corps) Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Ar Ramadi Dickinson North Dakota US
277 07/21/03 Bibby, Mark Anthony Corporal 25 Army Reserve Hqtrs., Hqtrs. Det., 422 Civil Affairs Batt. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Baghdad Watha North Carolina US
276 07/20/03 Willoughby, Christopher R. Sergeant 1st Class 29 Army Hqtrs., Hqtrs. Co., 221st Mil. Intel. Batt. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Baghdad airport Phenix City Alabama US
275 07/20/03 Garvey, Justin W. Sergeant 23 Army Hqtrs., Hqtrs. Co., 1-187 Infantry Batt. Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Tallifar Townsend Massachusetts US
274 07/20/03 Jordan, Jason D. Sergeant 24 Army Hqtrs., Hqtrs. Co., 1-187 Infantry Batt. Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Tallifar Elba Alabama US
273 07/19/03 Rozier, Jonathan D. 2nd Lieutenant 25 Army B Co., 2-70th Armor Bat., 1st Armored Hostile - hostile fire Baghdad Katy Texas US
272 07/18/03 Linton, James Captain 43 British Army 40 Field Regiment, Royal Artillery Non-hostile - illness - sudden collapse Az Zubayr Not reported Not reported UK
271 07/18/03 Bertoldie, Joel L. Specialist 20 Army Hqtrs., Hqtrs. Co., 4-64 Armor Batt. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Fallujah Independence Missouri US
270 07/17/03 Whetstone, Mason Douglas Sergeant 30 Army 3d Battalion, 58th Aviation (Forward) Non-hostile - not reported Baghdad Anchorage Alaska US
269 07/17/03 Moreno, David J. Petty Officer 3rd Class 26 Navy Naval Medical Center, 4th Mar. Div. Non-hostile - weapon discharge (accid.) Al Hamishiyah Gering Nebraska US
268 07/16/03 Torres, Ramon Reyes Specialist 29 Army Reserve 432nd Transportation Company Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Baghdad Caguas Puerto Rico US
267 07/15/03 Geurin, Cory Ryan Lance Corporal 18 Marines 1st Batt., 7th Mar. Reg., 1st Mar. Div. Non-hostile - accidental fall Al Hillah Santee California US
266 07/14/03 Crockett, Michael T. Sergeant 27 Army H&H Co., 3rd Batt., 7th Infantry Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Baghdad Soperton Georgia US
265 07/13/03 Puello-Coronado, Jaror C. Sergeant 36 Army H&H Co., 310th Military Police Battalion Non-hostile - vehicle accident Ad Diwaniyah Pocono Summit Pennsylvania US
264 07/13/03 Cassidy, Paul J. Captain 36 Army Reserve 432nd Civil Affairs Battalion Non-hostile - accident? Al Hillah Laingsburg Michigan US
263 07/12/03 Neusche, Joshua M. Specialist 20 Army Reserve 203rd Engineer Battalion Non-hostile - illness - pneumonia? Homburg Hospital Montreal Missouri US
262 07/11/03 Schultz, Christian C. Specialist 20 Army 3rd Troop, 67th Armor Battalion Non-hostile - weapon discharge Ba’qubah Colleyville Texas US
261 07/09/03 Gabrielson, Dan H. Sergeant 1st Class 39 Army Reserve 652nd Engineer Company Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Ba’qubah Spooner Wisconsin US
260 07/09/03 Valles, Melissa Sergeant 26 Army B Company, 64th Forward Spt. Bat. Non-hostile - weapon discharge Balad Eagle Pass Texas US
259 07/09/03 Tetrault, Jason Lance Corporal 20 Marines 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Div. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Not reported Moreno Valley California US
258 07/09/03 Rowe, Roger Dale Sergeant 54 Army National Guard 1174th Transportation Company Hostile - hostile fire - sniper Al Mahmudiyah Bon Aqua Tennessee US
257 07/08/03 McKinley, Robert L. Private 23 Army H & H Company, 1-101st Air Assault Non-hostile - illness - heatstroke Homburg Hospital Kokomo Indiana US
256 07/08/03 Boling, Craig A. Sergeant 1st Class 38 Army National Guard Co. C, 1-152nd Infantry, IN Nat. Guard Non-hostile - illness - heart attack? Camp Wolf Elkhart Indiana US
255 07/07/03 Sanford Sr., Barry Staff Sergeant 46 Army H & H Company, 101st Support Group Non-hostile - weapon discharge Balad Aurora Colorado US
254 07/07/03 Keith, Chad L. Specialist 21 Army 2-325th Infantry, Company D Hostile - hostile fire - bomb Baghdad Batesville Indiana US
253 07/06/03 Parson, David B. Sergeant 30 Army 1-37th Armored Batt., 1st Armored Div. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Baghdad Kannapolis North Carolina US
252 07/06/03 Wershow, Jeffrey M. Specialist 22 Army National Guard 2-124th Infantry, 1st Armored Division Hostile - hostile fire Baghdad Gainesville Florida US
251 07/03/03 Herrgott, Edward J. Private 1st Class 20 Army 1-36th Infantry Reg., 1st Armored Div. Hostile - hostile fire Baghdad Shakopee Minnesota US
250 07/03/03 Small, Corey L. Private 1st Class 20 Army 502nd Mil. Intelligence Co., 2 ACR Non-hostile - weapon discharge Baghdad East Berlin Pennsylvania US
249 07/02/03 Bradachnall, Travis J. Corporal 21 Marines Combat Service Support Group 11 Non-hostile - ordnance accident Karbala (near) Multnomah County Oregon US
248 07/01/03 Coffin, Christopher D. 1st Sergeant 51 Army Reserve 352nd Civil Affairs Battalion Hostile - vehicle accident Southern part Bethlehem Pennsylvania US
247 06/28/03 Conneway, Timothy M. Sergeant 22 Army 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - bomb Baghdad Enterprise Alabama US
246 06/27/03 Sotelo Jr., Tomas Corporal 20 Army Headquarters Troop, 2nd Armored Cav. Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Baghdad Houston Texas US
245 06/26/03 McIntosh, Joshua Hospitalman 22 Navy Seventh Marine Regiment Non-hostile - weapon discharge Karbala Kingman Arizona US
244 06/26/03 Hubbell, Corey A. Specialist 20 Army Company B, 46th Engineer Battalion Non-hostile - illness - breathing difficulties Camden Yards Urbana Illinois US
243 06/26/03 Orengo, Richard P. Specialist 32 Army National Guard 755th Military Police Company Hostile - hostile fire - ambush An Najaf (near) Toa Alta Puerto Rico US
242 06/25/03 Ott, Kevin C. Private 1st Class 27 Army Batt. B, 3rd Batt., 18th Field Art. Reg. Hostile - hostile fire Balad Columbus Ohio US
241 06/25/03 Philippe, Gladimir Sergeant 1st Class 32 Army Batt. B, 3rd Batt., 18th Field Art. Reg. Hostile - hostile fire Balad Linden New Jersey US
240 06/25/03 Chris, Andrew F. Specialist 25 Army Co. B, 3rd Bat., 75th Ranger Regiment Hostile - hostile fire Baghdad Huntsville Alabama US
239 06/25/03 MacDonald, Gregory E. Lance Corporal 29 Marines B Co., 4th Light Armored Recon Bat. Hostile - vehicle accident Al Hillah Washington Dist. of Columbia US
238 06/24/03 Lennon, Cedric Lamont Specialist 32 Army H & H Troop, 2nd Armored Cavalry Reg. Non-hostile - not reported Baghdad West Blocton Alabama US
237 06/24/03 Keys, Thomas Richard Lance Corporal 20 British Army 156 Provost Co., Royal Military Police Hostile - hostile fire Majar al-Kabir Bala Wales UK
236 06/24/03 Hyde, Benjamin John M. Lance Corporal 23 British Army 156 Provost Co., Royal Military Police Hostile - hostile fire Majar al-Kabir Northallerton England UK
235 06/24/03 Miller, Simon Corporal 21 British Army 156 Provost Co., Royal Military Police Hostile - hostile fire Majar al-Kabir Wash,Tyne&Wear England UK
234 06/24/03 Long, Paul Graham Corporal 24 British Army 156 Provost Co., Royal Military Police Hostile - hostile fire Majar al-Kabir Colchester England UK
233 06/24/03 Aston, Russell Corporal 30 British Army 156 Provost Co., Royal Military Police Hostile - hostile fire Majar al-Kabir Swadlincote England UK
232 06/24/03 Hamilton-Jewell, Simon A. Sergeant 41 British Army 156 Provost Co., Royal Military Police Hostile - hostile fire Majar al-Kabir Chessington England UK
231 06/22/03 Smith, Orenthial Javon Specialist 21 Army Co. A, 123rd Main Support Battalion Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Baghdad Allendale South Carolina US
230 06/19/03 Nakamura, Paul T. Specialist 21 Army 437th Medical Company Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Al Iskandariyah Santa Fe Springs California US
229 06/18/03 Latham, William T. Staff Sergeant 29 Army Troop E, 2nd Squad., 3rd Armored Cav. Hostile - hostile fire Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Kingman Arizona US
228 06/18/03 Deuel, Michael R. Private 1st Class 21 Army 2nd Bat., 325th Inf. Reg., 82nd Airborne Hostile - hostile fire Baghdad Nemo South Dakota US
227 06/17/03 Tosto, Michael L. Sergeant 24 Army 1st Bat., 35th Armrd Reg., 1st Arm. Div. Non-hostile - illness - pneumonia? Camp Wolf Apex North Carolina US
226 06/17/03 Frantz, Robert L. Private 19 Army 1st Bat., 36th Inf. Reg., 1st Armored Div. Hostile - hostile fire - grenade Baghdad San Antonio Texas US
225 06/16/03 Pahnke, Shawn D. Private 25 Army Co. C, 1st Bat., 37th Armored Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - sniper Baghdad Shelbyville Indiana US
224 06/16/03 Suell, Joseph D. Specialist 24 Army 5th Battalion, 3rd Field Artillery Reg. Non-hostile - not reported Taji Lufkin Texas US
223 06/15/03 Cox, Ryan R. Private 1st Class 19 Marines 1st Bat., 7th Marine Reg., 1st Mar. Div. Non-hostile - weapon discharge (accid.) An Najaf Derby Kansas US
222 06/13/03 Pokorny, Andrew R. Staff Sergeant 30 Army 3rd Air Def. Artillery, 3rd Armored Cav. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Al Asad Naperville Illinois US
221 06/12/03 Klinesmith Jr., John K. Specialist 25 Army Co. C, 2nd Bat. 14th Inf., 10th Mt. Div. Non-hostile - drowning Al Fallujah Stockbridge Georgia US
220 06/10/03 Neighbor, Gavin L. Private 1st Class 20 Army Co. C, 3rd Bat. 325th Inf., 82nd Airborne Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Baghdad Somerset Ohio US
219 06/08/03 Dooley, Michael E. Sergeant 23 Army 1st Squadron. 3rd Armored Cavalry Reg. Hostile - hostile fire Al Asad Pulaski Virginia US
218 06/07/03 Halling, Jesse M. Private 19 Army 401st Military Police Company Hostile - hostile fire Tikrit (near) Indianapolis Indiana US
217 06/06/03 Burkhardt, Travis L. Sergeant 26 Army 170th Military Police Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Baghdad Edina Missouri US
216 06/06/03 Bollinger Jr., Doyle W. Petty Officer 3rd Class 21 Navy Naval Mobile Constr. Battalion 133 Non-hostile - ordnance accident Al Kut Poteau Oklahoma US
215 06/05/03 Oberleitner, Branden F. Private 1st Class 20 Army Co. B, 2nd Battalion, 502nd Infantry Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Al Fallujah Worthington Ohio US
214 06/03/03 Haro Marin Jr., Atanasio Sergeant 27 Army Battery C, 3rd Bat., 16th Field Art. Reg. Hostile - hostile fire Balad Baldwin Park California US
213 06/01/03 Lambert, Jonathan W. Sergeant 28 Marines Headquarters Battalion, 1st Marine Div. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Newsite Missouri US
212 05/30/03 Long, Zachariah W. Specialist 20 Army 519th Military Intelligence Battalion Non-hostile - vehicle accident Mosul/Tikrit (between) Milton Pennsylvania US
211 05/30/03 Griffin, Kyle A. Specialist 20 Army 519th Military Intelligence Battalion Non-hostile - vehicle accident Mosul/Tikrit (between) Emerson New Jersey US
210 05/30/03 Gleason, Michael T. Specialist 25 Army 519th Military Intelligence Battalion Non-hostile - vehicle accident Mosul/Tikrit (between) Warren Pennsylvania US
209 05/28/03 Perez III, Jose A. Specialist 22 Army 6th Battalion, 27th Field Artillery Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Taji San Diego Texas US
208 05/28/03 Bradley, Kenneth R. Staff Sergeant 39 Army 588th Engineer Battalion Non-hostile - illness Ba’qubah Utica Mississippi US
207 05/27/03 Quinn, Michael B. Staff Sergeant 37 Army 2nd Squadron, 3rd Armor Cavalry Reg. Hostile - hostile fire Al Fallujah Tampa Florida US
206 05/27/03 Broomhead, Thomas F. Sergeant 34 Army 2nd Squadron, 3rd Armor Cavalry Reg. Hostile - hostile fire Al Fallujah Cannon City Colorado US
205 05/26/03 Schram, Matthew E. Major 36 Army HHT Support Squadron, 3rd ACR Hostile - hostile fire Haditha (near) Brookfield Wisconsin US
204 05/26/03 Smith, Jeremiah D. Private 1st Class 25 Army 1st Battalion, 34th Armor Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - bomb Baghdad Odessa Missouri US
203 05/26/03 Petriken, Brett J. Staff Sergeant 30 Army 501st Military Police Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident As Samawah Mundy Township Michigan US
202 05/26/03 Nalley, Kenneth A. Private 19 Army 501st Military Police Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident As Samawah Hamburg Iowa US
201 05/26/03 Mitchell, Keman L. Sergeant 24 Army Company C, 4th Engineer Battalion Non-hostile - drowning Kirkuk (near) Hilliard Florida US
200 05/25/03 Evans Jr., David Private 18 Army 977th Military Police Company Non-hostile - ordnance accident Ad Diwaniyah Buffalo New York US
199 05/22/03 Harvey, Leonard Civilian 55 Civilian Defence Fire Service Non-hostile - illness Hospital Not reported England UK
198 05/21/03 Caldwell, Nathaniel A. Specialist 27 Army 404th Air Spt. Bat., 4th Infantry Division Non-hostile - vehicle accident Ba’qubah (near) Omaha Nebraska US
197 05/19/03 Moore, Jason William Lance Corporal 21 Marines MMHS-364, Mar. Air Gp. 39, 3rd Air Wing Non-hostile - helicopter crash Al Hillah (near) San Marcos California US
196 05/19/03 Straseskie, Kirk Allen Sergeant 23 Marines 1st Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment Non-hostile - drowning Al Hillah (near) Beaver Dam Wisconsin US
195 05/19/03 White, Aaron Dean Staff Sergeant 27 Marines MMHS-364, Mar. Air Gp. 39, 3rd Air Wing Non-hostile - helicopter crash Al Hillah (near) Shawnee Oklahoma US
194 05/19/03 Ryan, Timothy Louis 1st Lieutenant 30 Marines MMHS-364, Mar. Air Gp. 39, 3rd Air Wing Non-hostile - helicopter crash Al Hillah (near) Aurora Illinois US
193 05/19/03 LaMont, Andrew David Captain 31 Marines MMHS-364, Mar. Air Gp. 39, 3rd Air Wing Non-hostile - helicopter crash Al Hillah (near) Eureka California US
192 05/19/03 Baragona, Dominic Rocco Lieutenant Colonel 42 Army 19th Maintenance Battalion Non-hostile - vehicle accident Safwan (near) Niles Ohio US
191 05/19/03 Shepherd, David Corporal 34 Royal Air Force Royal Air Force Police Non-hostile - natural causes Not reported Not reported Not reported UK
190 05/18/03 Sahib, Rasheed Specialist 22 Army 20th Field Artillery Reg., 4th Infantry Div. Non-hostile - weapon discharge (accid.) Balad Brooklyn New York US
189 05/18/03 Marencoreyes, Douglas Jose Corporal 28 Marine Reserve 4th Lt. Armored Recon., 4th Marine Div. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Samawah (near) Chino California US
188 05/16/03 Payne, William L. Master Sergeant 46 Army 2nd Battalion, 70th Armor Regiment Non-hostile - ordnance accident Haswah Otsego Michigan US
187 05/14/03 Nutt, David T. Specialist 22 Army 494th Transportation Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Irbil (near) Blackshear Georgia US
186 05/13/03 Kleiboeker, Nicholas Brian Lance Corporal 19 Marines 2nd Combat Engr. Bat., 2nd Marine Div. Non-hostile - ordnance accident Al Hillah (near) Irvington Illinois US
185 05/13/03 Griffin Jr., Patrick Lee Staff Sergeant 31 Air Force 728th Air Control Squadron Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Ad Diwaniyah Elgin South Carolina US
184 05/12/03 Rodriguez, Jose F. Gonzalez Private 1st Class 19 Marines 1st Supply Bat., 1st Force Svc. Spt. Gp. Non-hostile - ordnance accident Camp Chesty Norwalk California US
183 05/12/03 Kowalik, Jakub Henryk Lance Corporal 21 Marines 1st Maint. Bat., 1st Force Svc. Spt. Gp. Non-hostile - ordnance accident Camp Chesty Schaumburg Illinois US
182 05/10/03 Smith, Matthew R. Lance Corporal 20 Marine Reserve Comm. Co., 4th Force Svc. Spt. Group Non-hostile - vehicle accident Not reported Anderson Indiana US
181 05/09/03 Van Dusen, Brian K. Chief Warrant Officer 39 Army 571st Air Medical Company Non-hostile - helicopter crash Samarrah (near) Columbus Ohio US
180 05/09/03 Gukeisen, Hans N. Chief Warrant Officer 31 Army 571st Air Medical Company Non-hostile - helicopter crash Samarrah (near) Lead South Dakota US
179 05/09/03 Carl, Richard P. Corporal 26 Army 571st Air Medical Company Non-hostile - helicopter crash Samarrah (near) King Hill Idaho US
178 05/09/03 Bruns, Cedric E. Lance Corporal 22 Marine Reserve 6th Engr. Spt. Bat., 4th Force Spt. Gp. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Tac Assy Area Coyote Vancouver Washington US
177 05/08/03 Rockhold, Marlin T. Private 1st Class 23 Army 3rd Bat., 7th Infantry Reg., 3rd Inf. Div. Hostile - hostile fire - sniper Baghdad Hamilton Ohio US
176 05/08/03 Pritchard, Duncan Gunner 22 Royal Air Force 16 Squadron Non-hostile - vehicle accident Not reported Not reported Not reported UK
175 05/06/03 Kelly, Andrew Private 18 British Army 3rd Bat. Parachute Reg., 16 Air Assault Non-hostile - weapon discharge (accid.) Basra Tavistock England UK
174 05/04/03 Deibler, Jason L. Private 20 Army 1st Battalion, 6th Infantry Regiment Non-hostile - weapon discharge Camp New Jersey Coeburn Virginia US
173 05/03/03 Reynolds, Sean C. Sergeant 25 Army 74th LR Surveillance, 173rd Airborne Non-hostile - weapon discharge (accid.) Kirkuk E. Lansing Michigan US
172 05/01/03 Givens, Jesse A. Private 1st Class 34 Army 2nd Squadron, 3rd Armored Cav. Reg. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Al Habbaniyah Springfield Missouri US
171 04/30/03 McCue, James Lance Corporal 27 British Army 7 Air Assault Battalion, REME Non-hostile - ordnance accident? Basra (near) Paisley Scotland UK
170 04/28/03 Garza Joe J. 1st Sergeant 43 Army 1st Battalion, 30th Infantry Regiment Non-hostile - vehicle accident Baghdad Robstown Texas US
169 04/25/03 Sullivan, Narson B. Specialist 21 Army 411th Military Police Company Non-hostile - weapon discharge (accid.) Not reported N. Brunswick New Jersey US
168 04/25/03 Orozco, Osbaldo 1st Lieutenant 26 Army C Co., 1st Battalion, 22nd Infantry Reg. Hostile - vehicle accident Tikrit (near) Delano California US
167 04/24/03 Jenkins, Troy David Sergeant 25 Army B Co., 3rd Battalion, 187th Infantry Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - bomb Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Ridgecrest California US
166 04/22/03 Buckley, Roy Russell Specialist 24 Army Reserve 685th Transportation Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Al Kut Snow Camp North Carolina US
165 04/22/03 Lam, Alan Dinh Lance Corporal 19 Marines 8th Comm. Bat., 2nd Mar. Expd. Brig. Non-hostile - weapon malfunction Al Kut Snow Camp North Carolina US
164 04/22/03 Channell Jr., Robert William Chief Warrant Officer 36 Marines 1st Bat., 10th Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Expd. Non-hostile - weapon malfunction Al Kut Tuscaloosa Alabama US
163 04/22/03 Arnold, Andrew Todd Chief Warrant Officer 30 Marines 1st Bat., 10th Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Expd. Non-hostile - weapon malfunction Al Kut Spring Texas US
162 04/22/03 Tweedie, Alexander Lieutenant 25 British Army D Squadron, Household Cavalry Reg. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Edinburgh Hawick Scotland UK
161 04/17/03 Rivero, John T. Corporal 23 Army C Co., 2nd Battalion, 124th Infantry Div. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Tikrit Tampa Florida US
160 04/14/03 Brown, John E. Private 1st Class 21 Army 2nd Battalion, 44th Air Def. Artillery Reg. Non-hostile - ordnance accident Baghdad Troy Alabama US
159 04/14/03 Mileo, Jason David Corporal 20 Marines 3rd Bat., 4th Marine Reg., 1st Mar. Div. Hostile - friendly fire Baghdad Centreville Maryland US
158 04/14/03 Goward, Richard A. Specialist 32 Army National Guard 1460th Transportation Company Non-hostile - vehicle accident Not reported Midland Michigan US
157 04/14/03 Gonzalez, Armando Ariel Corporal 25 Marines MWSG-27, 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing Non-hostile - accident Southern part Hileah Florida US
156 04/14/03 Mayek, Joseph P. Private 1st Class 20 Army C Co., 2nd Battalion, 6th Infantry Reg. Hostile - friendly fire Not reported Rock Springs Wyoming US
155 04/14/03 Foley III, Thomas A. Specialist 23 Army 2nd Battalion, 44th Air Def. Artillery Reg. Non-hostile - ordnance accident Baghdad Dresden Tennessee US
154 04/13/03 Mercado, Gil Specialist 25 Army 3rd Battalion, 187th Infantry Regiment Non-hostile - weapon discharge Baghdad airport Paterson New Jersey US
153 04/12/03 Owens Jr., David Edward Lance Corporal 20 Marines 3rd Bat., 5th Marine Reg., 1st Mar. Div. Hostile - hostile fire Baghdad Winchester Virginia US
152 04/12/03 Gonzalez, Jesus A. Corporal 22 Marines 1st Tank Battalion, 1st Marine Division Hostile - hostile fire Baghdad Indio California US
151 04/11/03 Tejeda, Riayan A. Staff Sergeant 26 Marines 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Baghdad New York New York US
150 04/10/03 Hemingway, Terry W. Staff Sergeant 39 Army C Co., 1st Battalion, 15th Infantry Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - suicide bomber Baghdad Willingboro New Jersey US
149 04/10/03 Bohr Jr., Jeffrey E. Gunnery Sergeant 39 Marines 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment Hostile - hostile fire Baghdad Ossian Iowa US
148 04/08/03 Sather, Scott D. Staff Sergeant 29 Air Force 24th Special Tactics Squadron Hostile - hostile fire Southern part Clio Michigan US
147 04/08/03 Stever, Robert A. Staff Sergeant 36 Army 3rd Bat., 15th Inf. Reg., 3rd Infantry Div. Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Baghdad Pendleton Oregon US
146 04/08/03 Meyer, Jason M. Private 1st Class 23 Army B Company, 11th Engineer Battalion Hostile - hostile fire Not reported Swartz Creek Michigan US
145 04/08/03 Marshall, John W. Sergeant 1st Class 50 Army 3rd Bat., 15th Inf. Reg., 3rd Infantry Div. Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Baghdad Los Angeles California US
144 04/08/03 Garza Jr., Juan Guadalupe Private 1st Class 20 Marines 1st Bat., 4th Marine Reg., 1st Mar. Div. Hostile - hostile fire - sniper Baghdad Temperance Michigan US
143 04/08/03 Brown, Henry L. Corporal 22 Army H&H Co., 1st Bat., 64th Field Art'y Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - rocket attack Baghdad (south of) Natchez Mississippi US
142 04/07/03 Das, Eric B. Captain 30 Air Force 333rd Fighter Squadron Hostile - jet crash Tikrit (near) Amarillo Texas US
141 04/07/03 Watkins III, William R. Major 37 Air Force 333rd Fighter Squadron Hostile - jet crash Tikrit (near) Danville Virginia US
140 04/07/03 Mitchell, George A. Specialist 35 Army H&H Co., 3rd Infantry Div., 2nd Brigade Hostile - hostile fire - mortar round Baghdad (south of) Rawlings Maryland US
139 04/07/03 Miller, Anthony S. Private 1st Class 19 Army H&H Co., 3rd Infantry Div., 2nd Brigade Hostile - hostile fire - mortar round Baghdad (south of) San Antonio Texas US
138 04/07/03 Kaylor, Jeffrey J. 2nd Lieutenant 24 Army C Battery, 39th Field Artillery Battalion Hostile - hostile fire - grenade Baghdad Clifton Virginia US
137 04/07/03 Hollinsaid, Lincoln D. Staff Sergeant 27 Army B Company, 11th Engineer Battalion Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Baghdad airport Malden Illinois US
136 04/07/03 Medellin, Jesus Martin A. Corporal 21 Marines 3rd Assault Amphib. Bat., 1st Marine Div. Hostile - hostile fire Central part Fort Worth Texas US
135 04/07/03 Aviles, Andrew Julian Lance Corporal 18 Marine Reserve 4th Assault Amphib. Bat., 4th Marine Div. Hostile - hostile fire Central part Palm Beach Florida US
134 04/06/03 Prewitt, Kelley S. Private 24 Army H&H Co., 2nd Bat., 69th Armor Regiment Hostile - hostile fire Not reported Birmingham Alabama US
133 04/06/03 Huxley Jr., Gregory P. Private 1st Class 19 Army B Co., 3rd Battalion, 17th Engr. Bat. Hostile - hostile fire Baghdad Forestport New York US
132 04/06/03 Turrington, Kelan John Fusilier 18 British Army Royal Reg. Of Fusiliers, 7 Armoured Brig. Hostile - hostile fire Basra Haslingfield England UK
131 04/06/03 Muzvuru, Christopher Piper 21 British Army No. 1 Co., Irish Guards, 7 Armoured Brig. Hostile - hostile fire - sniper Basra Gweru Zimbabwe UK
130 04/06/03 Malone, Ian Keith Lance Corporal 28 British Army No. 1 Co., Irish Guards, 7 Armoured Brig. Hostile - hostile fire - sniper Basra Ballyfermot Ireland UK
129 04/05/03 Smith, Edward 1st Sergeant 38 Marines 2nd Bat., 5th Marine Reg., 1st Mar. Div. Hostile - hostile fire Doha Chicago Illinois US
128 04/05/03 Brown, Larry K. Specialist 22 Army C Co., 1st Battalion, 41st Infantry Reg. Hostile - hostile fire Not reported Jackson Mississippi US
127 04/05/03 Booker, Stevon A. Staff Sergeant 34 Army A Co., 1st Batt., 64th Armor Regiment Hostile - hostile fire Baghdad Apollo Pennsylvania US
126 04/04/03 Rios, Duane R. Sergeant 25 Marines 1st Combat Engr. Bat., 1st Marine Div. Hostile - hostile fire Central part Hammond Indiana US
125 04/04/03 McPhillips, Brian M. 1st Lieutenant 25 Marines 2nd Tank Battalion, 2nd Marine Division Hostile - hostile fire Baghdad (near) Pembroke Massachusetts US
124 04/04/03 Gooden, Bernard G. Corporal 22 Marines 2nd Tank Battalion, 2nd Marine Division Hostile - hostile fire Baghdad (near) Mt. Vernon New York US
123 04/04/03 Smith, Paul R. Sergeant 1st Class 33 Army 11th Engineer Battalion Hostile - hostile fire Baghdad airport Tampa Florida US
122 04/04/03 Jones, Devon D. Private 19 Army 41st Field Artillery Regiment Hostile - vehicle accident Not reported San Diego California US
121 04/04/03 Cunningham, Daniel Francis Specialist 33 Army 41st Field Artillery Regiment Hostile - vehicle accident Not reported Lewiston Maine US
120 04/04/03 Bellard, Wilfred D. Private 1st Class 20 Army 41st Field Artillery Regiment Hostile - vehicle accident Not reported Lake Charles Louisiana US
119 04/04/03 Aitken, Tristan N. Captain 31 Army 1st Bat., 41st Field Artillery, 3rd Inf. Div. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Baghdad airport State College Pennsylvania US
118 04/04/03 Sammis, Benjamin W. Captain 29 Marines HMLA-267, Mar. Air Gp. 39, 3rd Mar. Air Hostile - helicopter crash Ali Aziziyal Rehobeth Massachusetts US
117 04/04/03 Ford, Travis A. Captain 30 Marines HMLA-267, Mar. Air Gp. 39, 3rd Mar. Air Hostile - helicopter crash Ali Aziziyal Ogallala Nebraska US
116 04/03/03 Korn, Edward J. Captain 31 Army 64th Armor, 3rd Infantry Div. Hostile - friendly fire Central part Savannah Georgia US
115 04/03/03 Davis, Wilbert Staff Sergeant 40 Army 3rd Bat., 69th Armor, 3rd Infantry Div. Hostile - vehicle accident Baghdad (south of) Tampa Florida US
114 04/03/03 Silva, Erik H. Corporal 22 Marines 3rd Bat., 5th Marine Reg., 1st Mar. Div. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Baghdad (SE of) Chula Vista California US
113 04/03/03 Evnin, Mark A. Corporal 21 Marines 3rd Bat., 4th Marine Reg., 1st Mar. Div. Hostile - hostile fire Kut Burlington Vermont US
112 04/03/03 Rippetoe, Russell B. Captain 27 Army 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - suicide bomber SW of Haditha Dam Seaford Delaware US
111 04/03/03 Long, Ryan P. Specialist 21 Army 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - suicide bomber SW of Haditha Dam Seaford Delaware US
110 04/03/03 Livaudais, Nino Dugue Staff Sergeant 23 Army 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment Hostile - hostile fire - suicide bomber SW of Haditha Dam Syracuse Utah US
109 04/03/03 Robbins, Todd J. Sergeant 33 Army C Battery, 3rd Bat., 13th Field Artillery Hostile - friendly fire Baghdad airport Pentwater Michigan US
108 04/03/03 Rehn, Randall S. Sergeant 1st Class 36 Army C Battery, 3rd Bat., 13th Field Artillery Hostile - friendly fire Baghdad airport Longmont Colorado US
107 04/03/03 Oaks Jr., Donald S. Specialist 20 Army C Battery, 3rd Bat., 13th Field Artillery Hostile - friendly fire Baghdad airport Erie Pennsylvania US
106 04/03/03 Bales, Chad E. Private 1st Class 20 Marines 1st Trans. Spt. Bat., 1st Force Serv. Gp. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Ash Shahin Coahoma Texas US
105 04/02/03 Boule, Matthew G. Specialist 22 Army 2nd Battalion, 3rd Aviation Regiment Hostile - helicopter crash Karbala (near) Dracut Massachusetts US
104 04/02/03 Smith, Eric A. Chief Warrant Officer 41 Army 2nd Battalion, 3rd Aviation Regiment Hostile - helicopter crash Karbala (near) Rochester New York US
103 04/02/03 Pedersen, Michael F. Sergeant 26 Army 2nd Battalion, 3rd Aviation Regiment Hostile - helicopter crash Karbala (near) Flint Michigan US
102 04/02/03 Jamar, Scott Chief Warrant Officer 32 Army 2nd Battalion, 3rd Aviation Regiment Hostile - helicopter crash Karbala (near) Granbury Texas US
101 04/02/03 Halvorsen, Erik A. Chief Warrant Officer 40 Army 2nd Battalion, 3rd Aviation Regiment Hostile - helicopter crash Karbala (near) Bennington Vermont US
100 04/02/03 Adamouski, James F. Captain 29 Army 2nd Battalion, 3rd Aviation Regiment Hostile - helicopter crash Karbala (near) Springfield Virginia US
99 04/02/03 White, Nathan D. Lieutenant 30 Navy Strike Fighter Squad. 195 Hostile - friendly fire - jet crash Not reported Mesa Arizona US
98 04/02/03 Fernandez, George A. Master Sergeant 36 Army Hqtrs., U.S. Army Special Ops Command Hostile - hostile fire Northern part El Paso Texas US
97 04/02/03 Gurtner, Christian D. Private 1st Class 19 Marines 3nd Lt. Armored Recon., 1st Marine Div. Non-hostile - weapon discharge (accid.) Al Kut Ohio City Ohio US
96 04/02/03 Anderson, Brian E. Lance Corporal 26 Marines 2nd Lt. Armored Recon., 2nd Marine Div. Non-hostile - electrocution An Nasiriyah Durham North Carolina US
95 04/01/03 Maglione III, Joseph Basil Lance Corporal 22 Marine Reserve 6th Eng'g Spt., 4th Force Serv. Spt. Gp. Non-hostile - weapon discharge Camp Coyote Lansdale Pennsylvania US
94 04/01/03 Butler, Jacob L. Sergeant 24 Army Hqtrs. Co., 1st Bat., 41st Infantry Reg. Hostile - hostile fire - RP grenade Assamawah Wellsville Kansas US
93 04/01/03 Shearer, Karl Lance Corporal 24 British Army D Squadron, Household Cavalry Reg. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Not reported Not reported England UK
92 03/31/03 Rowe, Brandon J. Specialist 20 Army 1st Bat., 502nd Inf. Reg., 101st Airborne Hostile - hostile fire Ayyub Roscoe Illinois US
91 03/31/03 Jeffries, William A. Specialist 39 Army National Guard 1st Battalion, 152nd Inf. Reg., Indiana NG Non-hostile - illness - acute pancreatitis Rota Evansville Indiana US
90 03/31/03 Muir, Chris Staff Sergeant 32 British Army Army School Ammunition, R Logistics C Non-hostile - ordnance accident Southern part Romsey England UK
89 03/30/03 Contreras, Aaron J. Captain 31 Marines HMLA-169, Marine Corps Air Station Hostile - helicopter crash Southern part Sherwood Oregon US
88 03/30/03 McGinnis, Brian D. Sergeant 23 Marines HMLA-169, Marine Corps Air Station Hostile - helicopter crash Southern part St. George Delaware US
87 03/30/03 Lalush, Michael V. Sergeant 23 Marines HMLA-169, Marine Corps Air Station Hostile - helicopter crash Southern part Troutville Virginia US
86 03/30/03 Maddison, Christopher R. Royal Navy Marine 24 Royal Navy 9 Assault Squadron, Royal Marines Hostile - hostile fire Basra Scarborough England UK
85 03/30/03 Brierley, Shaun Andrew Lance Corporal 28 British Army 212 Signal Squad., 1 (UK) Armoured Div. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Not reported W. Yorkshire England UK
84 03/30/03 Ballard, Steve Alexis Major Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Non-hostile - natural causes Not reported Not reported England UK
83 03/29/03 White, William W. Lance Corporal 24 Marines 3rd Amphib. Assault Bat., 1st Marine Div. Non-hostile - vehicle accident South-central part Brooklyn New York US
82 03/29/03 Williams, Eugene Sergeant 24 Army 2-7th Infantry, 3rd Infantry Division Hostile - hostile fire - suicide bomber Najaf Highland New York US
81 03/29/03 Rincon, Diego Fernando Private 1st Class 19 Army 2-7th Infantry, 3rd Infantry Division Hostile - hostile fire - suicide bomber Najaf Conyers Georgia US
80 03/29/03 Curtin, Michael Edward Corporal 23 Army 2-7th Infantry, 3rd Infantry Division Hostile - hostile fire - suicide bomber Najaf Howell New Jersey US
79 03/29/03 Creighton-Weldon, Russell Private 1st Class 20 Army 2-7th Infantry, 3rd Infantry Division Hostile - hostile fire - suicide bomber Najaf Palm Bay Florida US
78 03/29/03 Cawley, James W. Staff Sergeant 41 Marine Reserve 23rd Marine Regiment, 4th Marine Div. Hostile - vehicle accident Not reported Roy Utah US
77 03/28/03 Solomon, Roderic A. Sergeant 32 Army 2-7th Infantry, 3rd Infantry Division Non-hostile - vehicle accident Central part Fayetteville North Carolina US
76 03/28/03 Padilla-Ramirez, Fernando Sergeant 26 Marines Mar. Wing Spt. Gp-37, Mar. Corp. Air Sta. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah San Luis Arizona US
75 03/28/03 Hull, Matty Lance Corporal of Horse 25 British Army D Squadron, Household Cavalry Reg. Hostile - friendly fire Southern part Berkshire England UK
74 03/27/03 Suarez del Solar, Jesus A. Lance Corporal 20 Marines 1st Lt. Armored Recon, 1st Marine Div. Hostile - cluster bomblet - friendly fire? Baghdad Escondido California US
73 03/27/03 Menusa, Joseph Gunnery Sergeant 33 Marines 1st Combat Engr. Bat., 1st Marine Div. Hostile - hostile fire Not reported San Jose California US
72 03/27/03 Rodriguez, Robert M. Corporal 21 Marines 1st Tank Bat., 1st Marine Division Hostile - vehicle accident An Nasiriyah Queens New York US
71 03/27/03 Martinez-Flores, Francisco A. Private 1st Class 21 Marines 1st Tank Bat., 1st Marine Division Hostile - vehicle accident An Nasiriyah Los Angeles California US
70 03/27/03 O'Day, Patrick T. Lance Corporal 20 Marines 1st Tank Bat., 1st Marine Division Hostile - vehicle accident An Nasiriyah Sonoma California US
69 03/27/03 May Jr., Donald C. Staff Sergeant 31 Marines 1st Tank Bat., 1st Marine Division Hostile - vehicle accident An Nasiriyah Richmond Virginia US
68 03/26/03 Nave, Kevin G. Major 36 Marines 3rd Bat., 5th Mar. Reg., 1st Mar. Div. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Southern part Union Lake Michigan US
67 03/25/03 Johnson Jr., Michael Vann Hospital Corpsman 3rd Cl. 25 Navy 1st Mar. Div. Attach., Naval Med. Center Hostile - hostile fire Not reported Little Rock Arkansas US
66 03/25/03 Stone, Gregory Major 40 Air National Guard 124th Air Spt. Oper. Squadron - Idaho Hostile - homicide - friendly fire? Camp Pennsylvania Boise Idaho US
65 03/25/03 Clarke, David Jeffrey Trooper 19 British Army Royal Fusiliers, Queen's Royal Lancers Hostile - friendly fire Basra Littleworth England UK
64 03/25/03 Allbutt, Stephen John Corporal 35 British Army Royal Fusiliers, Queen's Royal Lancers Hostile - friendly fire Basra Stoke-on-Trent England UK
63 03/24/03 Blair, Thomas A. Lance Corporal 24 Marines Marine Air Ctrl. Gp-28, 2nd Mar. Air Wing Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Wagoner Oklahoma US
62 03/24/03 Sanders, Gregory P. Specialist 19 Army 3rd Battalion, 69th Armor Hostile - hostile fire - sniper 60 miles S. of Baghdad Hobart Indiana US
61 03/24/03 Korthaus, Bradley S. Sergeant 28 Marines 6th Engr. Spt. Bat., 4th Force Serv. Gp. Hostile - drowning Saddam Canal Scott Iowa US
60 03/24/03 James, Evan T. Corporal 20 Marines 6th Engr. Spt. Bat., 4th Force Serv. Gp. Hostile - drowning Saddam Canal Hancock Illinois US
59 03/24/03 Stephen, Barry Lance Corporal 31 British Army Black Watch, 7th Armoured Brig., RAC Hostile - hostile fire Al Zubayr Scone Scotland UK
58 03/24/03 Roberts, Steven Mark Sergeant 33 British Army 2nd Tank Reg., 7th Armoured Brig., RAC Hostile - hostile fire Al Zubayr Cornwall England UK
57 03/23/03 Cullingworth, Simon Staff Sergeant 36 British Army 33 Engr. Regiment (EOD), Royal Engrs. Hostile - hostile fire Al Zubayr Essex England UK
56 03/23/03 Allsopp, Luke Sapper 24 British Army 33 Engr. Regiment (EOD), Royal Engrs. Hostile - hostile fire Al Zubayr North London England UK
55 03/23/03 Chanwongse, Kemaphoom A. Corporal 22 Marines 2nd Assault Amphib., 2nd Marine Div. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Waterford Connecticut US
54 03/23/03 Gifford, Jonathan L. Private 30 Marines 1st Bat., 2nd Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exped. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Macon Illinois US
53 03/23/03 Hutchings, Nolen R. Private 19 Marines 1st Bat., 2nd Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exped. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Boiling Springs South Carolina US
52 03/23/03 Cline, Donald J. Lance Corporal 21 Marines 1st Bat., 2nd Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exped. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Sparks Nevada US
51 03/23/03 Burkett, Tamario D. Private 1st Class 21 Marines 1st Bat., 2nd Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exped. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Buffalo New York US
50 03/23/03 Reiss, Brendon C. Sergeant 23 Marines 1st Bat., 2nd Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exped. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Caspar Wyoming US
49 03/23/03 Nixon, Patrick R. Lance Corporal 21 Marines 1st Bat., 2nd Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exped. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Nashville Tennessee US
48 03/23/03 Williams, Michael J. Lance Corporal 31 Marines 1st Bat., 2nd Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exped. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Yuma Arizona US
47 03/23/03 Rosacker, Randal Kent Corporal 21 Marines 1st Bat., 2nd Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exped. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah San Diego California US
46 03/23/03 Buesing, Brian Rory Lance Corporal 20 Marines 1st Bat., 2nd Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exped. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Cedar Key Florida US
45 03/23/03 Slocum, Thomas J. Lance Corporal 22 Marines 1st Bat., 2nd Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exped. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Adams Colorado US
44 03/23/03 Jordan, Phillip A. Staff Sergeant 42 Marines 1st Bat., 2nd Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exped. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Brazoria Texas US
43 03/23/03 Gonzalez, Jose A. Corporal 20 Marines 1st Bat., 2nd Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exped. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Los Angeles California US
42 03/23/03 Garibay, Jose A. Corporal 21 Marines 1st Bat., 2nd Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exped. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Orange California US
41 03/23/03 Fribley, David K. Lance Corporal 26 Marines 1st Bat., 2nd Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exped. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Lee Florida US
40 03/23/03 Bitz, Michael E. Sergeant 31 Marines 2nd Assault Amphibious, 2nd Marine Div. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Ventura California US
39 03/23/03 Anguiano, Edward J. Specialist 24 Army 3rd Combat Support Battalion Hostile - hostile fire - ambush Southern part Brownsville Texas US
38 03/23/03 Walters, Donald Ralph Sergeant 33 Army 507th Maintenance Co. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush An Nasiriyah Kansas City Missouri US
37 03/23/03 Sloan, Brandon U. Private 19 Army 507th Maintenance Co. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush An Nasiriyah Cleveland Ohio US
36 03/23/03 Piestewa, Lori Ann Private 1st Class 23 Army 507th Maintenance Co. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush An Nasiriyah Tuba City Arizona US
35 03/23/03 Mata, Johnny Villareal Chief Warrant Officer 35 Army 507th Maintenance Co. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush An Nasiriyah Amarillo Texas US
34 03/23/03 Kiehl, James M. Specialist 22 Army 507th Maintenance Co. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush An Nasiriyah Comfort Texas US
33 03/23/03 Johnson II, Howard Private 1st Class 21 Army 507th Maintenance Co. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush An Nasiriyah Mobile Alabama US
32 03/23/03 Estrella-Soto, Ruben Private 18 Army 507th Maintenance Co. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush An Nasiriyah El Paso Texas US
31 03/23/03 Dowdy, Robert J. Master Sergeant 38 Army 507th Maintenance Co. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush An Nasiriyah Cleveland Ohio US
30 03/23/03 Buggs, George Edward Sergeant 31 Army 3rd Forward. Spt. Bat., 3rd Infantry Div. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush An Nasiriyah Barnwell South Carolina US
29 03/23/03 Pokorney Jr., Frederick E. 2nd Lieutenant 31 Marines 1st Bat., 10th Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exp. Hostile - hostile fire An Nasiriyah Nye Nevada US
28 03/23/03 Addison, Jamaal R. Specialist 22 Army 507th Maintenance Co. Hostile - hostile fire - ambush An Nasiriyah Roswell Georgia US
27 03/23/03 Seifert, Christopher Scott Captain 27 Army 1st Brigade, 101st Airborne Div. Hostile - homicide - friendly fire? Camp Pennsylvania Easton Pennsylvania US
26 03/23/03 Hodson, Nicolas M. Sergeant 22 Marines 3rd Bat., 2nd Mar. Reg., 2nd Mar. Exped. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Southern part Smithville Missouri US
25 03/23/03 Williams, David Rhys Flight Lieut., Navigator 37 Royal Air Force IX (B) Squadron Hostile - friendly fire - jet crash Southern part Crickhowell Wales UK
24 03/23/03 Main, Kevin Barry Flight Lieutenant., Pilot 35 Royal Air Force IX (B) Squadron Hostile - friendly fire - jet crash Southern part England UK
23 03/22/03 Adams, Thomas Mullen Lieutenant 27 Navy On exchange w/Royal Navy 849 Squad. Hostile - helicopter crash Persian Gulf La Mesa California US
22 03/22/03 Tobler, Brandon J. Specialist 19 Army Reserve 671st Engineering Brigade Non-hostile - vehicle accident Southern part Portland Oregon US
21 03/22/03 Orlowski, Eric J. Lance Corporal 26 Marine Reserve 2nd Tank Bat., 2nd Marine Division Non-hostile - weapon discharge (accid.) Southern part Buffalo New York US
20 03/22/03 Wilson, Andrew S. Lieutenant 36 Royal Navy 849 Squadron A Flight, Fleet Air Arm Hostile - helicopter crash Persian Gulf England UK
19 03/22/03 Williams, James Lieutenant 28 Royal Navy 849 Squadron A Flight, Fleet Air Arm Hostile - helicopter crash Persian Gulf Falmouth England UK
18 03/22/03 West, Philip Lieutenant 32 Royal Navy 849 Squadron A Flight, Fleet Air Arm Hostile - helicopter crash Persian Gulf Budock Water England UK
17 03/22/03 Lawrence, Marc A. Lieutenant 26 Royal Navy 849 Squadron A Flight, Fleet Air Arm Hostile - helicopter crash Persian Gulf England UK
16 03/22/03 King, Anthony Lieutenant 35 Royal Navy 849 Squadron A Flight, Fleet Air Arm Hostile - helicopter crash Persian Gulf Helston England UK
15 03/22/03 Green, Philip D. Lieutenant 31 Royal Navy 849 Squadron A Flight, Fleet Air Arm Hostile - helicopter crash Persian Gulf England UK
14 03/21/03 Gutierrez, Jose Antonio Lance Corporal 22 Marines 2nd Bat., 1st Marine Reg., 1st Mar. Div. Hostile - friendly fire Southern part Guatemala City Guatemala US
13 03/21/03 Ward, Jason Major 34 Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Plymouth England UK
12 03/21/03 Stratford, Mark Warrant Off. 2nd Class 39 Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Plymouth England UK
11 03/21/03 Seymour, Ian Oper. Mech. 2nd Class 28 British Army 148 Commando Battery, Royal Artillery Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Poole England UK
10 03/21/03 Hehir, Les Sergeant 34 British Army 29 Commando Regiment, Royal Artillery Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Poole England UK
9 03/21/03 Hedenskog, Sholto Royal Navy Marine 26 Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Pretoria South Africa UK
8 03/21/03 Guy, Philip Stuart Captain 29 Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) N. Yorkshire England UK
7 03/21/03 Evans, Llywelyn Karl Lance Bombardier 24 British Army 29 Commando Regiment, Royal Artillery Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Llandudno Wales UK
6 03/21/03 Cecil, John Colour Sergeant 36 Royal Navy 3 Commando Brigade, Royal Marines Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Plymouth England UK
5 03/21/03 Waters-Bey, Kendall Damon Staff Sergeant 29 Marines MAW&TS-1, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Baltimore Maryland US
4 03/21/03 Kennedy, Brian Matthew Corporal 25 Marines MAW&TS-1, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Houston Texas US
3 03/21/03 Beaupre, Ryan Anthony Captain 30 Marines MAW&TS-1, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Bloomington Illinois US
2 03/21/03 Aubin, Jay Thomas Major 36 Marines MAW&TS-1, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing Hostile - helicopter crash Umm Qasr (near) Waterville Maine US
1 03/21/03 Childers, Therrel Shane 2nd Lieutenant 30 Marines 1st Bat., 5th Marine Reg., 1st Mar. Div. Hostile - hostile fire Southern part Harrison Co. Mississippi US

[Pierce Tondry]

I wish that had been a link rather than a huge list.

I would say something about the breaking of eggs being required for omelet-making, but feel that would be trite and minimalistic of me. I think the point applies, though.

But then, I am biased. I lost a cousin to terrorism and believe it needs to be stopped through the establishment of peaceful relations with other countries, by the bitterly ironic use of force if necessary.

[Charley]

In the largest military action our nation has seen since the Vietnam War, we've lost maybe a small battalion's strength of men, in all services combined over the past 7 and a half months.

I hate to see it as much as the next person, but that is nevertheless an extraordinary minimalization of casualties.

EDIT: That's coalition-wide casualties, also. Makes the number even more amazing.

[Dutchy]

6 months ago Bush declared the war to be over. Mission completed.

138 Americans were killed since then, which is more than during the war itself. Not something to cheer about.

Most importantly, the situation doesn't seem to get better, but seems to get worse instead. America doesn't seem to be in total control and, like I said before, knows how to win a war, but also how to lose peace.

On the other hand: maybe all recent incidents were just some final convulsions, and in some months all the dust will settle down, but right now I don't think Bush is looking too hopefully forward to his re-election.

[Pierce Tondry]

Honestly, I feel too many people hate Bush for whatever reason and are inflating the casualty count issue's importance.

Funny, but who knew what an incredibly divided four years this country would have?

[Charley]

Originally posted by Dutchy
6 months ago Bush declared the war to be over. Mission completed.

138 Americans were killed since then, which is more than during the war itself. Not something to cheer about.

Most importantly, the situation doesn't seem to get better, but seems to get worse instead. America doesn't seem to be in total control and, like I said before, knows how to win a war, but also how to lose peace.

On the other hand: maybe all recent incidents were just some final convulsions, and in some months all the dust will settle down, but right now I don't think Bush is looking too hopefully forward to his re-election.

If the attacks are part of a cohesive fighting force in organized resistance, you may have a point. Seems more an issue of general lawlessness, however.

[Jedieb]

Originally posted by Agent Charley
If the attacks are part of a cohesive fighting force in organized resistance, you may have a point. Seems more an issue of general lawlessness, however.

There's definitely some organization behind much of the resistance. It's intensifying in certain parts of the country.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101031110-536191,00.html

[JediBoricua]

I think the most important point is that the war is not over. There is no such thing as a Post-War Iraq. The war just turned from a convential to a guerilla war. Simple as that.

ON the past couple of weeks the resistance seems to be getting more organized, coordinated attacks on police stations, multiple attacks per day, etc. Knocking down a helipcopter is no act of lawlessnes if you ask me, just getting the shoulder slung missiless means someone is supplying and coordinating the resistance.

And the US forces are stretched, but Rumy and Bush don't want to have 200,000 troops on Iraq since that sum was considered a scandal on February, but since no big military power is sending any help (and I don't blame 'em), in the next few months the US will have to step up the occupation force.

[Charley]

intensification != organization. Way to buy some media jingoism.

[JediBoricua]

Oh sorry, I guess things go like this then:

iraqi man #1: "I'm bored today, everyone seems to be blowing up police stations and knocking down helicopters, we should get some action"

iraqi man #2: "I agree, in fact I have two missiless under my mattress, we could knock down a couple of choppers with them"

iraqi man #1: "Woohoo, now your talking"

:rolleyes

[Dutchy]

Heh heh...

[Charley]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
Oh sorry, I guess things go like this then:

iraqi man #1: "I'm bored today, everyone seems to be blowing up police stations and knocking down helicopters, we should get some action"

iraqi man #2: "I agree, in fact I have two missiless under my mattress, we could knock down a couple of choppers with them"

iraqi man #1: "Woohoo, now your talking"

:rolleyes

Still waiting for you to link violence with organized military reprisal.

Terrorism != Military action.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Agent Charley
Terrorism != Military action.

The harder to beat they are.

[TheHolo.Net]

It has been a policy of late that topics exceeding 500 replies be removed from the forums, except the countdown topic. I will leave this topic here, but will close it.

Topics that exceed 500 replies are a strain on the database. If you wish to continue the discussion please begin another topic.