Arrow/Flash/Legends of Tomorrow

[Minnie Starshine]

To stop us hijacking the TV thread, here's a thread to discuss these shows :)

[Captain Untouchable]

LIXChLpqZBM

Soooooo excited for Jay Garrick next week. :eee

How they made his costume so look freaking cool though (witchcraft?) and yet so absolutely true to the comics I have no idea.

Hurry up, Tuesday. *grabby hands*

[Minnie Starshine]

So how does his helmet stay on when he's running? >.>

[Captain Untouchable]

Because of the speed force, duh. :p

[Minnie Starshine]

Oh, of course :p.

Is it bad I totally own one of those STAR Lab jumpers in size small? >.> (What? If Felicity gets to wear one so do I :p)

[Captain Untouchable]

Only if it's bad that I have STAR Labs, Queen Consolidated, and Stark Industries t-shirts and hoodies that I wear on a regular basis. :p

They do say "dress for the job you want", after all... ;)

[Minnie Starshine]

Oh, okay, that outdoes me :P.

I have the Reverse Flash's ring though! Doesn't fit me though :(

[Captain Untouchable]

I'm super torn between getting one of those, or getting a Legion of Superheroes ring like Booster Gold has. Or maybe a Blue Lantern ring, but I haven't managed to find a good one of those anywhere yet.

I've got a Samulet that I never take off, but I need more day to day wearable nerd swag, damn it. :mischief

[Minnie Starshine]

I don't know what that lot is >.>. Although I can guess what a 'Blue Lantern' ring is at least :p

I have quite a lot of geeky jewellery. But that's going off topic :p

[Captain Untouchable]

You don't know who Booster Gold is??? :|

https://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ll8s3uk9Oy1qafrh6.gif

(if you only ever watch one episode of Smallville, make it ^ that one)

[Minnie Starshine]

I've heard of him >.>

[Captain Dan Myers]

Well of course y' have, ma'am. ;)

http://i52.tinypic.com/1gfph.gif

[Diana Latona]

:colbert Of course she has.

[Solomon Latona]

*grabs his sister and drags her away*

Come on, sis, back in your box. Leave Dan alone to wink at the nice lady. :|

[Green Arrow]

Get out of my thread, all of you. :mad

[Red Arrow]

Seriously. Get your own damn thread. Stupid mutants.

[Minnie Starshine]

'Red Arrow'? Shouldn't that be 'Speedy'? :p

[Green Arrow]

New sizzle reels from New York Comic Con! :ohno

8N1JAz4THwU

gI6LiHjYJpo

Good god I'm sexy. :smokin


Also... hot damn, Zoom is kind of awesome. :eek

[Minnie Starshine]

Ohhhh! I spy Caity Lotz! YAY!

....Also, I don't know how I feel about Zoom. I mean, another mysterious evil speedster with a backwards Flash symbol on his chest and a deep growly voice hiding his identity? I already know his secret identity! It's Not-Tom-Cavannagh-So-I-Don't-Care!

[Green Arrow]

Not necessarily? It seems like he's some evil speedster from Earth-2, so potentially he could be an alternate universe Tom Cavanaugh with a really sore throat? :lol

That said, my theory is that [either he a) has something to do with Wally West, who in Arrow/Flash terms would be a POC (like he is in the New 52)... maybe a bitter/angry Kid Flash from the future or something, or b) he's just Jay Garrick's version of the Reverse-Flash, or something like that.]

I get a very different vibe from him, though. Reverse-Flash was very much a man with a plan, whereas Zoom comes across more in the vein of wanting to watch the world burn. I'm also sorta glad that Season 2 is going to be Speedster overload (we're getting Jay Garrick, Wally West, Zoom, AND Jesse Quick), because it gets that out of the way in one big bonanza. I think if they paced themselves and gave us one new speedster each season, we'd all end up rolling our eyes being all "Welp, this is Season 3's speedster episode, I guess". Using a season that focuses on the infinite diversity of spacetime to showcase all the different permutations of the same power... I'm okay with that.

[Minnie Starshine]

POC? I dunno what that means >.>.

I get having another evil speedster I guess, it's just... right down to the Flash logo flipped on his chest. If he isn't Reverse-Flash or related to him (or inspired by him), it just seems a bit silly to be repeated. Although I know he's called 'Zoom' and there's the whole 'Professor Zoom' for Reverse Flash name, so who knows?

[Green Arrow]

POC = Person Of Colour.

It's what white people call non-white people when we're trying really really hard not to offend anyone.

As far as Zoom/Professor Zoom... the Reverse-Flash character on Flash is actually an amalgam of two versions of the character. Eobard Thawne (Professor Zoom) is a big chunk of it, but the wheelchair elements, the idea of wanting to push the Flash to be better and better, and the working with the police to combat metahumans come from Hunter Zolomon (who went by just Zoom). Yeah, the reverse logo is maybe a little bit too on the nose, but I think if they'd gone with a different costume it would have been too much of a clue for the comic book nerds. A lot of what Arrow and Flash do is intentional misdirection so that nerds like me don't see everything coming a mile off... I'm kinda grateful for the effort they put in to make sure that the surprises are as agonisingly painful to me as they are to people who don't know the comics so well. :uhoh

[Minnie Starshine]

Oh. Where I grew up, that was considered more offensive, because it was implying that white people weren't a colour. Which they are. Then again, I'm pretty much half-caste so I just sit in the middle :p.

I will only excuse them if a) he turns out to be the Reverse Flash, or b) the Reverse Flash returns at some point and fights Zoom. Preferably kicking his butt :p

[Green Arrow]

...oh man. If Flash and Reverse-Flash ever team up to fight Zoom? :ohno

I may need to void my bladder before watching, else there might be excitement pee.

[Minnie Starshine]

It would fit as Eobard/Harrison Wells kinda seems to like Barry, but I sorta just want to see Reverse Flash kick his butt and be awesome. I doubt they will though, due to the rule of escalating threats. Zoom has to be faster than Reverse Flash or its not as good of a threat for series 2.

[Green Arrow]

Unless it's full power Reverse-Flash because he's fixed whatever power seepage he was suffering from after travelling into the past.

[Minnie Starshine]

Maybe he'll just have a growl off.
"I can do a scarier voice than you!" "No! I can!"

[Green Arrow]

Only if Thawne does that awesome stop............ in the middle of his sentences that he does.

Because damn it, it is impossible not to listen to him when he does that.

[Minnie Starshine]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who loves how he does that >.>

They should just have an 'evil off'. "I wear all black!" "My eyes glow red for no apparent reason!"

[Green Arrow]

So much :eee about tonight's episode!

I really like Jay Garrick - he is instantly likeable (as he should be). I am surprised at how cool his costume managed to look: it's got a very Rocketeer vibe to it (one of my favourite movies of all time), which is how I've always hoped live action Jay Garrick would look... though I do have to wonder if he's wearing magnets in his hair to keep that hat on. I really liked the glimpses we got of Earth-2 - there's a very Fallout vibe to it, that whole "the future as imagined in 1940", and that is really really cool. [Was not expecting surprise Earth-2 Wells at the end either!!]

I love the vibe (pun intended) that the STAR Labs team has now. Everyone just seems to have their own little niche in the group, and while I do miss Wells being around, it doesn't feel like anything is missing. The banter between Cisco and Stein continues to be awesome, and I want to hug Professor Stein on a pretty much minute-by-minute basis, he has an awesome... "my favourite teacher" sort of vibe. [What the crap though Flash?! What did you do to him at the end there?!] :mad

Also, of course there are 52 portals from Earth-2. The DC universe is nothing if not laughably consistent. :lol

Having got a bit more of a glimpse at him... I'm not hating Zoom. He reminds me a little of Black Flash (the Grim Reaper for speedsters), which I'm sure is one of those intentional misdirects that the writers keep doing. The outfit isn't massively imaginative (just the Reverse-Flash but all-black), but that mask is awesomely creepy, and holy crap Tony Todd, I want to have his voice babies. I'm a little "hmm" about his suit resembling an Earth-1 Flash, but his origin being in Earth-2... I'm wondering if perhaps Jay wasn't being entirely honest about that origin story; there were a few moments where he seemed a little evasive.

And just... wow. Patty Spivot. :swoon:

I just hope that if Barry/Patty becomes the new Oliver/Felicity, they'll have the decency to bring back Eddie Thawne somehow. Don't let Eddie and Iris become the new Tommy and Laurel. :(

[Kid Flash]

And so begins Operation Lay The Groundwork For Legends. :ohno

SnowGarrick is still bugging me a little bit, but I'm going to let them off because a) Jay Garrick is awesome, and b) happy Caitlin is adorable. I really like the way that Cisco and Lisa has panned out too - before it was just silly/fun, but there's actually some substance to it now, and she's become an unexpectedly likeable character. Also, Barry and Cold having their little "date" talks is probably my favourite thing. :lol

Probably not as super fanboy exciting for me as last week was, but that was some good solid well-written TV right there. That said, [I still think it would have been cooler if Iris' mother was still alive due to complicated time travel shenanigans rewriting the timeline rather than defaulting to "lie to Iris" as a plot device again.]

[Dasquian Belargic]

Just hopping in to say that I am enjoying the second season of Flash... well, what I've seen of it! Only watched the first episode so far :)

Wish I had the time to catch up with Arrow, but I fear unless I'm struck by an illness that leaves me out of work for a fortnight, I'll never get back up to speed on that.

[Scout Ravenwood]

I'm enjoying the show :). I have a new theory on Zoom though:

I don't think he's from Earth 2 at all. I think he travels dimensions stealing the powers of speedsters. And I think he's going to turn out to be a version of Barry himself, from like, Earth 69 or something.

[Kid Flash]

Pro tip: apparently Patty is always right. Never question her again. :lol

Really like this Jax guy. The whole coach/quarterback dynamic makes a lot of sense (in some versions, Stein literally is a football coach), and I think the dynamic between Barry and Jax works better for Season 2. I love Ronnie, and Robbie Amell is great, but Ronnie has an older/stronger connection to pretty much the entire STAR Labs team, and he was a self-sacrificing big damn hero right out of the gate... that probably wouldn't have jived so well with Barry being in charge. I really hope he comes back at some point though - part of me is wondering if at some point, Ronnie will join with Caitlin. There's a version of Firestorm where the pair are romantically involved, and Caitlin Snow from the comics is an ice villain who is obsessed with Firestorm because he's the only guy who "makes her feel warm". Don't get me wrong, I absolutely want to see Caitlin on her own as Killer Frost... but the reason that Jackson worked with Stein and Hewitt didn't was because they were opposites, and that's something they've underscored a lot in terms of how Caitlin and Ronnie work as a couple.

I really missed Jay Garrick this week, and I'm sad that Cisco's new best friend won't be around for a little while... but holy crap Harrison Wells 2.0 looks like an effing badass, especially in the promo -

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God damn it, The Flash. Harrison Wells is sexy enough already. Stop making him more so! :swoon:


I took a screen grab (http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd259/o6untouchable/Fans/Zoom%20Face_zpsxs7cpqrg.png) of the better / non-vibrating version of Zoom we got this week. Definitely seems like they're trying to make comic book fans think of this guy (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Flash_%28New_Earth%29), but I'm guessing that's a red herring. Part of me still suspects this guy (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Edward_Clariss_%28New_Earth%29) (especially with the blue lightning)... but the guy in the suit is wearing contacts, his mouth is completely covered, and it looks like he's got black makeup on underneath to hide who he is. I don't think that it's Barry. There is a version (I think?) of Barry in the New 52 who is all blue and glowy... but Zoom just looks too beefy in that footage; and Speed Force or no, I just don't buy Tony Todd's voice being able to come out of Barry's mouth, no matter how much he vibrates his vocal chords.

What if instead it's either Henry Allen or Joe West? Fathers and father figures are a big part of the Flash, and with Joe possibly having another son, Henry's weird-as-hell exit from the show a few weeks ago, Jay Garrick being slightly paternal/mentor mode, and another Harrison Wells there to open old wounds... not to mention Colonel Cold, and the fact that we're getting a Jesse Quick soon, whose dad is a speedster in the comics... Zoom turning out to be someone's father would definitely fit with the pattern.

That said, Barry does have an evil twin (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Malcolm_Thawne_%28New_Earth%29) associated with the colour blue, who in the comics is Eobard Thawne's 20th Century ancestor. What if Zoom is Earth 2's version of Eddie Thawne? Or, what if he's more like Black Flash and is some sort of "entity" that has hijacked Eddie Thawne's dead body after it got sucked into the rift?

Speaking of Wally West - I'm guessing that's this mystery son that Mama West had? If they're going that route instead of making Iris his aunt... I'm really intrigued by that. It makes for an interesting potential dynamic between Barry and Wally... instead of just being the guy his aunt is dating, Barry ends up being the "imposter" who was getting raised by Joe in Wally's place.

Something I'm intrigued to see is what colour Wally's lightning ends up being (and Jesse Quick, too). In the old comics, he has regular gold/Flash lightning, but in the New 52 his lightning is much more red (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/7/77184/4176359-5725610346-tumbl.jpg), like Thawne's was. Will he recreate the experiment that gave powers to Jay and Barry, and get gold lightning? Will he get red lightning a la New 52, and if so will the way he gets his powers be connected to Eobard Thawne somehow? Or, will Wally's lightning end up being blue, because of some sort of Zoom connection, either because Zoom is evil older Wally West from the future... or because Zoom is Joe West, and the West family gets blue lightning?

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I lost it at [man-shark's appearance]

[Captain Untouchable]

Not gonna lie, kinda hoping for a [King Shark vs Grodd] episode. :ohno

[Supergirl]

I thought the episode was fun, but fairly standard, expected stuff...

...until the last minute. That was so brilliant, and so unexpected lol. I loved it.

[Green Arrow]

G_BuTuVmEtE

:eee :eee :eee

Hurry up next week. :ohno

[Scout Ravenwood]

Just saw the latest Arrow. In terms of quality, it was a better quality episode than Flash, but then again, it didn't have a giant half-man half-shark so suck it Arrow.

In all seriousness, I feel like Arrow is actually better quality this year, but Flash maintains just being crazy comic book fun like no other show on TV (except maybe Supergirl, given the chance :p). Looking forward to next week, although this just reminds me I need to actually finish watching Constantine the series. I love Matt Ryan as Constantine, although in that promo it does seem really weird seeing him hanging out somewhere as clean/clinical/hi-tech as the new Arrow lair.

[Oliver Queen]

I enjoyed tonight's episode, but switching up Doctor Light's identity didn't sit right with me. In the comics she's an astrophysicist (and STAR Labs employee) called Kimiyo Hoshi, and while I have absolutely zero qualms about the way that the CW mixes up characters for The Flash and Arrow, I guess this just felt like a wasted opportunity... the fact that she was Linda Park mattered for a grand total of about sixty seconds. I really hope the two Lindas is something they plan to revisit, and that we'll either a) end up with Doctor Light helping out with the fight against Zoom in future episodes, and/or b) get some scenes where Linda interacts with Linda. Otherwise... kind of a weird creative decision.

Oh and that girl, Wells' daughter? That's [the actress they announced as having cast as Jesse Quick, so... surprise, Harry, your daughter is / will be a speedster, I guess?]

[Green Arrow]

Constantine on Arrow! *kermit flail*

Okay, so it did feel a little bit odd having Constantine there... but having those little jangly bits of Constantine music in there, having John sass thrown at Oliver... it ticked all of the boxes I wanted it to. Also, the fact that [One of Oliver's tattoos comes from Constantine?! First Oliver gets rid of the Shado tattoo, and now this.] Well played Arrow, you have tapped into the thing that was bugging me that I didn't even realise was bugging me. And as if the novelty value of John and Oliver wasn't enough... it was directed by John Bedham. As in, director of Short Circuit and WarGames. Congratulations the CW, you have won at Jace appeal novelty nerd bingo. :lol

Kinda liked the character development this week as well. Happy Oliver, "I'm only judgemental for rational reasons" Oliver... he's slowly migrating towards the way I'm trying to write him, so I'm all for that. He'll never make it all the way to comic book Oliver, but my inner fanboy grows happier with each passing episode.

[Supergirl]

My delayed thoughts :p.

Flash: Yaaay Harrison Wells! I've actually been thinking Arrow has been better quality than Flash this year so far, but this was finally the episode where Flash took the lead again. I adore Harrison Wells being a dick. It's brilliantly ironic that the evil, Eobard Thawne Wells was actually a nicer guy than the real Wells! Although I still think he's got something to hide. There's a little look from Cisco when Wells suggests Barry uses his mirage ability, because only the Reverse Flash knew how to do that, that to me was a hint maybe not everything is as it seems. He also didn't seem to balk when talking about the Reverse Flash, like he knew who he was.

My theory on Zoom remains he's not from Earth 2 either. Wells thinks he created Zoom because Zoom showed up after the Earth 2 particle accelerator exploded, but we don't know for sure that's true. Given his suit is the same as Earth 1's Flash (same lightning bolt and ear bits), not Jay Garrick's Flash, I think he's from yet another dimension, or some kind of twisted character from Earth 1 (Eddie, or some kind of evil remnant of Reverse Flash).

Patty Spivot is growing on me too. I didn't like her at first, but now she's quite fun. Only thing I didn't like this episode was the usual problem of 'Barry should be able to defeat this villain in 0.2 seconds but instead can't for some reason' the show often does. Oh, also, they say Jay Garrick could run at the speed of light, but Barry is faster. So does that mean Barry can run faster than the speed of light?

Arrow: I was looking forward to this one and found it really disappointing! Constantine is barely in it, and his appearance just feels so small and minor it's really dull. Restoring Sara's soul is a piece of cake and he's around for all of five minutes. And his appearance in the flashbacks just feels cartoony, since apparently Constantine five years ago travels to tropical islands still in his same shirt and tie. I mean, I get the comic book character wore that, but they could vary it a bit...

I also really dislike that suddenly Felicity has lost all her tech skills and goes to her own sub-Felicity for help for no apparent reason. In the past she could do everything herself, there was nothing Felicity couldn't hack, even when it wasn't computer related. But now, suddenly, she's totally reliant on the guy who's not Moss from the IT Crowd but totally looks like him.

But at least Sara's back, Thea keeps being my favourite character on the show, and I am looking forward to what happens next.

[Oliver Queen]

As far as Felicity delegating stuff to Curtis... I think that's more about time than about ability. We don't see her do it, but she's the CEO of a multinational corporation, who spends her evenings helping her boyfriend fight crime. Remember how much she was struggling to juggle things last season, when she was torn between her PalmerTech responsibilities and her Team Arrow responsibilities? It's now worse... but rather than showing Felicity continuing to struggle, we're seeing a Felicity who is taking charge of her situation, and is making use of the resources / subordinates that she has at her disposal.

It's not that she can't do stuff... she just doesn't have the time.

As far as restoring Sara's soul not taking long enough... that kind of stuff didn't really occupy that much of an episode in Constantine, either. The amount of time that stuff took was perfectly in keeping with Constantine - it's just that instead of Constantine being the one who helped to track the monster down, he wasn't called in until after Team Arrow had already handled it.

True, it was more like one of those "Felicity shows up on The Flash" type episodes rather than a full-blown crossover... but that was kinda the way it had to work. If Team Arrow had been too reliant on Constantine, it would have ballsed things up for the whole ongoing Damien Darhk stuff. They needed to demonstrate that the main characters aren't going to need to phone up Constantine every time something bad/magical happens... I think that's about as much as we could reasonably have expected out of Arrow, all things considered. He got about as much screen time / involvement as any other guest character would have.

[Supergirl]

I think the show could do a better job of... well, showing that. If you came in in season 4, you'd have no idea Felicity was meant to be the tech genius she was.

I still wish Constantine had been in it more. I get the logic, but bringing him in for a ten minute stint just felt a bit underwhelming. Maybe they'll surprise us though and he'll be back for the finale as a surprise or something. That'd be awesome. I'd love to see Constantine vs. Darke :p

[Supergirl]

Also, to fuel further speculation, check out this image of Zoom's full costume I found:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/Vivli/Zoom_zpspyfnxrvw.jpg

[Oliver Queen]

Bear in mind though that between them, Flash and Arrow have eighteen episodes to lay all of the groundwork for Legends of Tomorrow. They've got to bring Sara back from the dead, establish Ray's shrinking powers, show that Captain Cold isn't all bad, introduce Hawkman and Hawkgirl and establish what they are about, get past the whole "Robbie Amell is too busy filming X-Files, we need someone new to be the body half of Firestorm"... all of that while also setting up the big bad and main storyline for what will happen for the rest of Season 2/4.

There's not really room within that for a "proper" Constantine episode... and the fact that they even tried to get Constantine to guest appear at all is pure, 100% fan service. There's no financial benefit to it, no ratings boost for Arrow, no struggling Constantine show to help out... they did it because it was a nice, fun thing to do for the fans. If they'd waited until after Christmas, they would have had more room to do an episode where Constantine was involved more... but they decided not to wait, and gave us our fan gratification now.

I would bet money on the CW finding a way to give us more Constantine - maybe after Christmas, maybe in Legends of Tomorrow season 2. Unless there's some sort of complicated rights issue, those guys will find a way to make it happen, because they're super fans themselves. No one forced the writers to include Constantine at all though, they went out of their way to do it. A "not good enough for your tastes" Constantine episode is still better than no more Constantine ever, eh? ;)


Also, to fuel further speculation, check out this image of Zoom's full costume I found:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/Vivli/Zoom_zpspyfnxrvw.jpg

I still don't entirely by the "it's evil Barry" argument. Yeah, it does look like an Earth-1 costume, but I just don't buy that it's Barry wearing it. For starters, if it was Barry I don't think the logo would be reversed: he'd wear a black version of his own costume, not a black version of Reverse-Flash's costume. More than that though, the guy in that suit is beefy. There's a promo photo of Zoom wrestling Barry to the ground and just... there is no amount of anything that could make Grant Gustin's skeleton have that much muscle on it. The chest and the shoulders are too broad... I just don't buy it.

I like the theory that it is some version of Black Flash / Black Racer (the grim reaper for speedsters), and that it's "wearing" Eddie's body after he got sucked into the vortex. I like the idea that it's some speedster from another reality too, trying to Jet Li some stuff. The idea that it has something to do with Barry's dad too is a cool one... just because Old Flash versus New Flash would be pretty spiffy.

My personal favourite theory right now is the Earth-0 one. The idea that the universe/reality/Earth that Barry left in the finale is not the one that he returned to. By going back in time and making it so that there was yet another extra Flash in his house the night his mother died, Barry created a "new" reality, and he returned to the future of that one. His original timeline continued on without him, though. In that Earth-0, Eddie and Ronnie are still alive (and happily together with Iris and Caitlyn), and Eobard Thawne successfully returned to the future. However, because the Flash never returned to Earth-0, that future was irrevocably broken, and so Eobard Thawne (with Harrison Wells' face) has turned himself into a black and demonic version of the Reverse-Flash, and is going around defeating every speedster out there so no one will ever be able to meddle with the timeline again.

Kind of a crackpot theory, granted. Much as I like new Harrison Wells though, Tom was just too deliciously good as Eobard for me to believe that he's gone forever, and that Earth-0 work-around is a pretty easy (relatively speaking) way of bringing him back. It also keeps the pool of speedsters relatively small, which is relatively useful in the grand scheme of things.

[Supergirl]

But I think spending SO much time setting up a spin off instead of focusing on your own show is also a bit of a flaw, but I do get what you're saying. Although I do really hope we get more Constantine. I still think the crossover could have been done a little better. Little things like when Ollie phoned John, it'd of been nice if he'd been doing something. Anything, really, but something Constantine-y, instead of just standing statically in an alleway.

As for Zoom, you may be right it's not evil Barry, but I do think he's got to be linked to Barry/Earth-1 Flash somehow, not Earth-2 Flash. Because of the costume similarities. I thought it's possible he's linked to Eobard/Wells too, I thought maybe some kind of 'Speedforce' remnant of him or something because of the way he was erased from history, but I honestly think the big reveal that Zoom is the exact same bad guy from season 1 would be anti-climatic. Eddie would work too, as some kind of left over/twisted version after being sucked in to a portal.

One big hint is the eyes. They're brown and Caucasian. That actually rules out a lot of people. They actually look a lot like John Wesley Shipp's. It would be really weird, but it might tie in to why he left so jarringly in the first episode. Maybe Zoom threatened him to because they're the same person? It'd at least help justify Flash's crappest moment so far...

[Oliver Queen]

Yeah, I was wondering if maybe Henry knew that Zoom was him, and thus his weird exit. It'd be cool to have an Old Barry versus New Barry thing. Only question mark in my mind there is like... doesn't Henry leaving make it worse? If Henry had stayed, then Barry would now it definitely wasn't his dad, he'd know that Zoom and Henry had definitely not been in the same places, so it's definitely not his actual dad gone evil. With Henry gone, there's the risk of that question of whether it really is Henry, and that moment of unknowing could be a moment that gets Barry killed. Also from a production standpoint, if Henry was in the show more often (ie. if he's the one filming all of those scenes in the Zoom suit, if those are actually his eyes rather than the eyes of a stunt double, etc), then wouldn't having Henry around in the story make it "safer", so that there's less risk of people seeing Shipp on set / in behind the scenes photos and being all "Wait, how come he is there when his character isn't?"

On the flipside... having a different voice actor and a mask that covers most of his face, that kinda screams "you would recognise who this was" to me, and they have been putting a lot of story effort into the doppelgangers so far. So maybe it is an actor who has brown eyes... or maybe it's a stunt double, and the production team didn't worry about the eye colour because they were expecting it to be CGI'd over.

As for investing time setting up the spinoff... maybe it is flawed, but there's only room in CW's schedule right now for a ten episode show. They used Arrow to set up the Flash... and on Arrow at least, the character intros thus far kinda fit in nicely anyway? Sara's storyline has mixed nicely with Thea's, and it's tied in nicely with Lance's storyline with Darhk, and the Ray storyline looks like it's going to force a confrontation with Darhk... I think they're actually balancing the set-up and the ongoing story quite well. The Firestorm story too... Stein was a really nice addition to the STAR Labs dynamic for the first few episodes, and they managed to have the story nudge along Barry's personal development a bit. They all work as the kind of stand-alone episodes that Arrow and The Flash would be doing at this point anyway, they just also happen to be setting up the groundwork for Legends of Tomorrow as well. They just "feel" off, because you know they're set-up episodes... if you didn't, you probably wouldn't think they were all that unusual.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I think they're using Tony Todd for Zoom's voice because last year people reversed the modulation they did on Reverse Flash's voice and we all knew it was Tom Cavanaugh. Also because Tony Todd has an awesome voice.

[Oliver Queen]

That's pretty much what I just said, Holly. ;) They've cast a voice actor, so we won't recognise Zoom's voice. Which presumably means that Zoom is someone whose voice we would otherwise recognise. Same logic with having a mask that covers most of his face, to make it harder to recognise who is underneath. Hence - that kinda screams "you would recognise who this was" to me.

[Supergirl]

With Flash though, I think the set up on Arrow was totally unnecessary. To be honest, I forgot Cisco and Caitlyn were even in Arrow first! You can come in to Flash fresh, without having seen Arrow, without a problem. I don't think the same will be said of Legends of Tomorrow.

As for the reverse modulation, I didn't know people did that! I just thought everybody knew it was Tom Cavvanagh because it was obvious from the start. Even the writers said they weren't really hiding it. The question wasn't 'Is Harrison Wells the Reverse Flash?', it was 'HOW is Harrison Wells the Reverse Flash?'. This time, Zoom's identity really is a big secret.

[Droo]

This week's Arrow was exceptional. Everything was firing on all cylinders, and it really feels like all the plot threads are coming together in a neat and satisfying way. It also boasted some of the shows best fight sequences: some of the long shots were excellent, of Laurel in the hallway, and, particularly, Thea in the elevator! :eek

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Interestingly enough, this was the directoral debut of their stunt coordinator. He did a great job. :)

[Stephanie Brown]

I think both episodes were pretty awesome this week.

Flash has given me a new theory on what's going on. It was another episode with small, but slightly more obvious, hints this time that Earth-2 Harrison Wells might not be Harrison Wells after all. His moment with Cisco, perfectly imitating Eobard, his sudden turn on Grodd, where he suddenly knew all about his plans for Grodd as a supervillain and became the perfect Eobard impersonator, and the very end where he hints that he knows how the ring works. I'm hoping it's all hinting that he's actually Earth-2 Eobard. My little theory is that in the Earth-2 reality, he successfully killed Barry as a kid, and that means that Barry's Dad became Zoom. And that at some point, something has made him decide to live his life as Harrison Wells rather than carry on any plan. It might even be the point Earth-2 diverged from Earth-1. Maybe the reason it's got all that fancy hi-tech stuff is Harrison Wells has been using his knowledge of the future to make it a better place.

Arrow the direction was awesome this episode, but I didn't think it was anything special in terms of plot. It was fun, it was awesome seeing them all kicking ass, and I'm glad Thea refused to become a murderer. But plot wise, I don't feel like much has actually happened this season. They're still at square one with Damien.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

How excited are we for the Flash/Supergirl crossover?

PRETTY EXCITED

With Flash [going to Earth 2 next week, I'm sure Supergirl's world will be another Earth as well. Earth 3, as it were.]

[Captain Untouchable]

I'm not sure if [Supergirl will be another Earth or not. From a Flash audience perspective it makes sense, but the Supergirl audience hasn't had the benefit of a whole season about Earth-2 to familiarise them with multiverses. Also, it took a black hole time explosion to open the breaches to Earth-2, and the STAR Labs team are working on closing them... so unless Kara is on Earth-2 (which I'd be fine with), you need to somehow come up with a reason for Barry to get to "Earth-3", and then dumo a whole load of exposition into the Supergirl episode, which is usually a fairly exposition-light show.]

Tbh, [it's not that big a deal if Supergirl is on Earth-1. Nobody in the entire world gave a crap about terrorists blowing up an earthquake bomb in Starling City, or invading it with supersoldiers. The CWverse seems pretty ignorant of what is happening in other cities - just like comic books - so finding out that Superman has been out there all along? I don't think it's that worldbreaking really. Besides, what's the point of a crossover if you can't borrow elements of each other's world to flesh out yours? Letting Flash/Arrow/Legends reference the DEO, letting Supergirl face off against members of the League of Assassins... the advantages of being on the same Earth outweigh the "oops, we nevermentioned Superman on screen" thing.]

[Droo]

How excited are we for the Flash/Supergirl crossover?

If they are doing it like the Arrow/Flash crossover, with an episode of each show dedicated to the crossover, then I'll watch the Flash episode, of course, but not the Supergirl one. I love the actress playing Supergirl, and I love her performance, but I couldn't stomach more than four episodes of that dreadful show.

[Captain Untouchable]

It's pulled a bit of an Agents of SHIELD actually, Droo.

Episodes 5-7 are where things start changing. They start focusing more on giving Miss Benoist stories that she can show off her acting chops with, and focusing less on things like the obligatory love triangles. They stop trying to make Maxwell Lord "likeable", and just let him be a full-on sleazebag. Hank Henshaw's mystery takes some interesting twists and turns, as does Kara and Alex's dynamic with him - and David Harewood is given the opportunity to show some really compelling new sides to his character. The episodes all start slotting together in a much more satisfying way too - there's a lot more pay-off from one week to the next.

Maybe the show just isn't for you... but I'd suggest trying to soldier through until Episode 7 if you can stomach it, just to see if the twists and turns win you over.

[Droo]

Fair enough, I'll give it another go. There were things I liked about it, but they were overshadowed by too many things I disliked. And, believe me, I went into this show really wanting to like it. It's funny you should mention Agents of SHIELD, though, I count myself amongst the rare few who enjoyed that show right out the gate. It was Arrow I struggled with in the first season: I went from love, to hate, to love again - all over the course of about 14 episodes.

So, I'll check out the next few episodes, but I fear it will take a miracle for me to like James Olsen. I can make no promises there!

[Captain Untouchable]

The main problem with Arrow was a mix of relying too much on an obligatory love triangle, and not being entirely sure what they wanted to do with the characters they had. The chemistry with Tommy and Laurel worked too well, the chemistry with Oliver and Felicity was completely unexpected, the chemistry with Oliver and Slade in the flashbacks, etc, so a lot of things changed and evolved over the course of that first season.

Supergirl is in the same boat. Hank's role in the story was changed because the producers liked his performance in the pilot and came up with a better idea. James starts out existing only to be a vertex in the unnecessary love triangle and to create romantic friction... but Lucy Lane gets brought in, Kara gets a new love interest (played by her RL partner) with whom she has actual chemistry, and various other bits and pieces change.

If you look back on the Arrow pilot, it's almost not the same show: they made the show that the network would approve, rather than the show they ended up wanting to make. Supergirl is in a very similar boat... there was a lot of play it safe / tick the boxes for the stuffy old white men / etc type stuff at the beginning that, having proven they can bring in the ratings, having got their back-half pick-up, etc, they can now start shifting away from.

[Captain Untouchable]

Holy potatoes, that finale. :eee

Proud of myself for figuring out the iron mask mystery, but I didn't see that final scene coming. I wonder [if they're going to pull a full Flashpoint / New 52, and use this to ever so slightly alter the continuity so that Supergirl can be a full fledged part of things next year. Maybe they'll rewrite the universe so that Superman, Supergirl, etc exist on Earth-1, or they'll do some sort of universe merging business that smushes things together? Or maybe Supergirl world is gonna turn out to be Earth-3, and Jay Garrick 2.0 will be the bridging character that helps connect things?]

I am surprised that [Wally and Jesse didn't develop speedster-itis in the finale, though. Unless Barry manages to put the timeline back exactly right, their exposure to the speed force sorta never happened? I guess with Jesse, she might be shielded from the timeline changes on Earth-2, so she might be okay - maybe she'll be the Flash of Earth-2 when we see her again. Wally is surprising though, I was expecting him to become the new Flash while Barry was having away time or something... but I guess it was a red herring / decoy.]

On a related Legends of Tomorrow note, [I'm still waiting to see how Legends time travel and Flash time travel are going to overlap. It seems like the sentient Speed Force embodies the whole time "wants" to happen thing... but the Time Masters don't seem to incur the wrath of the time wraiths. Is it as simple as "they aren't using the Speed Force for time travel, so it's not our jurisdiction"? I kinda hope there is a more satisfying answer than that.]

[Lilaena De'Ville]

They're planning on a four-way crossover event in December, which should be interesting.