Maher and Affleck on Islam

[Droo]

For clarification, this post has been moved from the random thought threads, where the first flickerings of discussion were taking place. As a result, this opening post reads somewhat randomly.

I didn't see any generalisations taking place. In fact, I think it was this exact misconception that Mahler and Harris were talking about: a perception that stops liberals from defending liberal principles for fear of being labelled bigots and Islamophobes. Harris highlights this early on, when he says: "...every criticism of the doctrine of Islam gets conflated with bigotry towards Muslims as a people."

Their complaint starts with Islam, that is the doctrine itself and how it affects the lives of people in the Muslim community. Their complaint is not with Muslims, moderate or otherwise. The argument is that in the Muslim world, liberal principles like freedom of speech, equality for women, tolerance of minorities, is - to put it mildly - in short order, and that liberals should be more vocal in condemning the toxic influence of Islam on its communities. However, the knee-jerk reaction of many is jump to the immediate defence of what is known as "moderate Muslims," or as Ben Affleck puts it, those "who just want to go to school and have some sandwiches." But that is missing the point entirely, because those Muslims who want to just go to school and have some sandwiches are still beholden to the anachronistic and barbaric dogma of their own religion, and if there are some free thinkers amongst those people, who wish to abandon their old beliefs in favour of more accommodating and humane beliefs, or those who may just wish to pursue some sort of reformation, they may very well face the penalty for apostasy, which is death. Ben Affleck was defending no-one with his patronising and irresponsible rant, which stood as a testament to his own ignorance when he equated condemning Islam to racism and stereotyping in the vein of "black people, you know, they shoot people."

Maher's criticism of Islam as being unlike other religions is not without merit. All religions boast their fair share of fanatics and fundamentalists, and you will find them citing verses from their various holy books to justify their heinous actions. If a Christian fundamentalist blew up an abortion clinic and cited scripture as justification for it, Christians the world over will condemn these actions, and these may be Christians who may or may not be pro-life, who may be homosexual, who may have sex before marriage, who may question their faith. And that is the big difference. The same goes for Judaism. If you look at the Torah, there's all sorts of questionable content in there that only the most fundamentalist of Jews would prescribe to, however, most don't, and they don't have to. This is because of reformation, because of secularism - words that do not go well with words like "infallible."

In this open letter (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html) to moderate Muslims, Ali Rizvi addresses this issue far better than I can, and I would urge you to give it a read before you think Bill Maher is making generalisations about anything.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

I'll preface this by saying that even though I grew up going to church, I'm not a super religious type. I have a dislike for organized religion in general, so my allegiances aren't with any one 'side'.



So I did read that article while on break, and I have to say that it's a fantastic and incredibly thought-provoking piece. The points that are made are concise and to the point, and incredibly articulate :)

I think that my main points of contention come from Harris saying that Islam is the motherlode of bad ideas, and what I viewed - and still view - is a generalization made that criticizing Islam automatically equates with Islamophobia, therefor Liberals choose to say nothing.

But first I want to address Affleck and his behavior. I found it childish, immature, and the man really needs to learn how to conduct himself in environments such as this. He certainly wasn't doing his message any service by acting the way he did, and while I saw the underlying spirit of what he was trying to get across, the way he said it was horrific and, as you said earlier Droo, rude. His constant cutting in and (what I felt to be) unnecessary remarks just made him seem reactionary when in a setting such as this, was the absolute last thing he needed to be. So yeah, we're definitely in agreement that his behavior was atrocious. What he was trying to convey however, I do agree with. It's just his delivery left a heck of a lot to be desired.

Now, as far as the remark about Islam being the motherlode of bad ideas, I found that to be a pretty big misconception. The bible is rife with archaic 'bad ideas', and some would say that it has more than the Quran, even. Most Christians do not follow these ancient laws and guidelines because they no longer apply in today's world; not to mention that with the death of Jesus Christ, those old laws were - to my understanding - considered mostly unneeded, as with the blood of Christ, redemption was made everlasting. Of course, despite all of that there are still to this day denominations of Christianity and individuals who profess to being Christians that are abhorrent. The WBC comes to mind first, with their continued actions and adherence to some of these bad ideas. And who can forget Jim Jones? And Anders Breivik? Heck, even the KKK. And goodness, one could argue that the reason Bush went into Iraq in the first place was for religious purposes. Those are just off the top of my head, since the list goes on. My point is, is that you could say that moderate Christians nowadays are old hands at condemning the more radical actions of their religion. So, yeah, I agree that moderate Christians condemn the acts of fundamentalists who also call themselves Christians. But I've also seen those same moderates call for moderate Muslims to condemn the actions of radical Muslims, then when those moderate Muslims do, they're accused of not being sincere or it's not a good enough condemnation (this is anecdotal on my part and only what I myself have witnessed, so I understand it's not the same as a factual example). Reformation does come from within, especially where religion is involved in my opinion, but Christians the world over have the chance to encourage those moderate Muslims. Instead, I see only disdain and "well, you're just not doing it well enough" or "whatever, you don't really mean it". This notion of Islam being the motherlode of bad ideas just doesn't jive with me, since even Christianity is still rife with them, and in my estimation saying one is worse than the other is completely unfair since both have terrible ideas in them. The difference comes in interpretation of those books. Christianity has a head start on the reformation front, but to be honest, where I live, I'm hard-pressed to find someone willing to say "We've been there - how can we help".

Now, as far as the generalization aspect, again I'm gonna have to go on my own personal experiences. But, I'm also going to have to back it up a little to an initial defense of Islam. I can tell someone who says to me "Everything I learned about Islam I learned on 9/11" that that is a terrible thing to say, and also wrong. But, that same person will start spouting off tired catchprase 'talking points' from Fox News, or sites like Infowars and TheBlaze, and nothing I can say will dissuade them from stopping and thinking for themselves. I could say that that sort of radicalism still happens within Christianity to a degree, but they'll hear none of it, so at that point I'm unable to go further. I can't tell them that there are indeed moderate Muslims in this world, and that yes they need to stand up and begin their own reformation. If I did that without said person truly understanding the position that moderate Muslims are in and how they need to initiate this reformation on their own, then the next thing I'll be told is that Islam just needs to be wiped off the earth. There's a reason I don't talk about religion at my work, heh, as most of those there are avid watchers of Fox, and they read Infowars and TheBlaze like it's going out of style. I can't even get to the point of my criticisms because if I do, it's taken to an absolute extreme by those who would suddenly condone radicalism as long as it's done to Muslims. Now, I'm not saying that's the case with all Liberals, but I just can't believe that I'm not alone in my situation. I have criticisms of Islam, and I have criticisms of Christianity. It's just that I can't even begin to address the former because it's immediately taken to an extreme by others who are unwilling to understand and, in some cases, unable. I'm not afraid of being labeled an Islamophobe because I know that I'm the farthest from; I'm just not willing to open the door to that discussion if the person I'm talking with already has a wall of ignorance built up. And trust me, where I work there are a lot of those.

I hope that help to illustrate a little more on where I stand in this :)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I pretty much agree with Droo. And while the Old Testament tells the devout to stone people to death, not even modern Jews advocate stoning. However, we do see modern muslims beheading and murdering those who will not convert to Islam. It's the whole reason ISIS/ISIL is terrible, because they are going out and wholesale murdering all the non-muslims they find.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

While that's true, they have killed far more Muslims than non-Muslims. At this point, it's not about religion for Daesh - it's about using religion to gain power and control over people. In the process, they've opened the door to all moderate Muslims to start the process for religious reformation within their own belief system. Those are the people we need to encourage and cheer on.

As far as modern Muslims beheading people who don't convert, again that is Daesh exerting control - not for religious purposes, but for power through religion. It's despicable to be sure, but I think it's important not to confuse the two.

[Charley]

Probably not a bad idea to pay attention to the relationship of poverty to extremism as well. It's easier for folks channeling dark stuff in religion to get it to stick to desperate people.