How do we get new/different staff members?

[Lilaena De'Ville]

There isn't really a delicate way of putting this, so please don't be offended or take this personally, it is not intended in that fashion.

I think we have staff members who are just filling seats and not doing anything. Miranda/Dani, and Jedi Master Carr are the ones that come to mind. Dani has been busy with work and new family and so hasn't been on the boards enough to post let alone do any staff business. Carr doesn't do any moderating at all, unless I'm missing something, and hasn't for quite some time. Even sticking threads for football pick day would be something he (or any staff member) could be doing, but it doesn't get done.

I'm also very concerned at the lack of admin support from Ogre those days. Do we need to address this? What if he just doesn't show up again?

[Morgan Evanar]

Chris is around, he just does not post actively.

As for Dani and Carr, I feel you make fair points.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

So do we have to vote for removal or...? And new staff members...? In the past I think the current staff sort of picks someone? Should we do nominations (with chances for the nominated to bow out) and then let the staff pick from that list?

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

I do know that Dani has been wanting to come back, but has found herself a bit daunted by the prospect, if that makes sense. She's not sure about how to pick up with her characters.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

So she's an active board moderator then, just not posting IC? I don't think posting IC is a requirement of fulfilling mod duties.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Well it's like you said; she's been busy with family stuff and work, but desiring to come back. I was just giving information that I knew. I cannot speak for Carr, however.

[TheHolo.Net]

A staff refresh/update is probably a good idea, though with the low level of activity I have seen over the last few months I doubt there is much true need.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

One might argue that a fresh perspective on staff might bring more enthusiasm and activity.

[Dasquian Belargic]

Do you have suggestions for who those fresh new faces might be?

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I thought perhaps opening it up for nominations by the membership. The point of this thread was asking how we go about doing it, and/or if other people thought it was a good idea.

[Captain Untouchable]

I think part of the "problem" might be clarity and visibility. A lot of what the Staff does seems to take place behind the scenes: from the outaide observer, it's all too easy for the Staff doing things covertly to perhaps seem like they aren't doing things at all. For all we know, the Staff could be endlessly busy with all manner of complicated things, but all we have to go on is whether or not image claims get processed, and things like that. Communication is a big part of that: the Staff makes carefully worded announcements occasionally, but the track record for keeping people in the loop when issues are being discussed or handled by the Staff behind the scenes is sometimes a little sketchy. Better communication when stuff is done would help with the invisibility problem.

It's also not completely clear what the difference between (for example) Jenny the Admin and Andrew the Mod. It's hard to know if an issue is something that can be dealt with by person A or if it needs to go up the chain to person B. Yes, one can ask, but being clear on these sorts of things is an important part of appearing slick and professional. It's a similar story with Group Mods: we don't have the same faction hierarchy that we've had in the past, so aside from being able to edit threads in that forum, what role are they expected to serve?

This is my inner business process analyst talking, but we might be better served firming up what the Staff is "for" before we decide whether or not more are needed.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I think the staff is there to make things run smoothly, and also to make sure things are actually running - from a technical and content point of view. Take care of the shitheads/spam, check reported posts...but also RP mods should IMO be doing things like running RPer/RP of the month or coming up with a monthly silly RP "goal/badge" to earn. Stuff like that. A hobbies mod would keep relevant threads stickied and bring in content if needed, as well as taking care of the reported posts and such.

RP of the month threads could be stickied for the month, too, that might be cool. But that is neither here nor there.

Rather than having a staff that says "well just holler at me I'm around" I would prefer a more proactive approach.

[Atreyu]

As a former admin (from 12 years ago - yikes!) I concur with Holly's points. Funny thing is, the 'proactive' stuff that Holly talks about used to be done by the mods/admins all the time back around the late 90s/early 00s - it was pretty much a general expectation of the position. Speaking for myself I used to trawl TFN for interesting SW news and post them here to facilitate discussion - it might only have attracted half a dozen responses or so, but it was one way to try and stimulate activity. Other mods/admins did their own thing like hosting/organise the boxoffice contests etc. On the roleplay side of things, even something as simple as keeping an eye on roleplaying developments and sometimes 'bumping' a half-forgotten discussion to help move things along ("Hey guys, you had a good idea here but seems to have died - are we still keen for this? etc).


'Proactive' is the key word. Having to ask the mods/admins to do stuff as simple as sticking the weekly football thread (Holly's example) really shouldn't be necessary.


Of course as the years have rolled on and the board has gotten quieter whilst we've all gotten older and have more things going on in personal life it's probably understandable that expectations have declined on the mod/admin front, and that's ok. :) Maybe we just need to reinvigorate the idea that a mod/admin is, you know, and actual 'forum leader' and encourage whoever holds those positions to try and actually fulfil that role, rather than just close threads and stuff (if some are already doing more than that - that's fantastic, keep up the good work. :)). Thing's like s'Il's recent thread about revamping the main page are good examples of this - mods trying to lead and give inspiration and discussion to try and reinvigorate the board.


Anyways regarding current staff who may be inactive, my suggestion would be a simple, polite message being sent to them just asking that they're going ok and just asking how they see themselves continuing on in their present positions of the board, and if they may want to retire. In Carr's case I know for a fact he's quite active on another boxoffice board yet hasn't posted here in a few months.






(NOTE #1: I exclude Ogre from the above, as 'Mr Holo.Net' I see him as our main 'tech admin' who's responsibility is to keeping the board software chugging along, kind of the same as the techies at TFN.


NOTE #2: usual disclaimer like Holly's above that none of the above is directed at anyone personally and is only general talk - although I visit here once every week/fortnight or so I've barely posted 3 times in the last year :cyduck)

[Dasquian Belargic]

Although I definitely like the idea of a proactive staff, and I'm not in any way opposed to a restructure, I am not currently seeing - at a glance - anyone who is currently voluntarily doing the kind of stuff you (Holly and Atreyu) have mentioned. To me, people joined the staff roster in the past because they were already creating content, driving discussions, etc. not vice versa (i.e. they didn't become staff members and then start doing that kind of thing.)

Are there people out there who feel like they can't be proactive and do those kinds of things because they don't have the word Moderator in their custom title?

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I don't see the staff doing it, either, which is sort of the point. Personally I have tried to keep stuff going on around the boards in the past, regardless of what my title is, but in the last year or so I've felt that what I've done was unwanted so I stopped. RPer of the month, for instance. I was told to leave it alone, and so I did, and nothing has been done since then.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I'm not suggesting that anyone on the staff is doing that kind of thing. I'm just questioning whether or not giving someone new a moderator position will suddenly dramatically change their posting behavior.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Obviously people who are not moderators cannot be active in keeping relevant threads stickied, etc. I think that yes, becoming a mod would let a person know they have the authority to do things and push things along, and if someone was nominated and didn't think they could participate like that then I guess they'd say so and out themselves out of the running.

[Atreyu]

Dasq, you're right that proactive staff in the past were probably already that way prior to taking on the position. But honestly, you've got to start somewhere. From the way I'm reading this discussion it seems no one is really responsible for anything anywhere (content wise) ... so nothing gets done at all. :\

People can do these things (RPer of the month etc) without needing a mod title, but if we decide to make such things an actual responsibility of the mod team going forward there's someone that can be followed up with should it not be getting done. Not to mention that mod powers automatically give a much larger range of abilities such as stickying threads etc.

As for who is going to be a mod to do this sort of thing, we'll only know once we throw open nominations for new mods and see who responds. But I think having this stuff clarified first is important so anyone putting their hand up knows what they're volunteering for.



EDIT: I suppose on a related note, what do current staff think of these ideas (in terms of expanded mod responsibilities)? Is Morg (or whoever) happy if we tell him he's now responsible for RPer of the month etc? Any proposed initiatives are going to effect current staff as well as any new ones.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

No one's really answered the question that is in the thread title.

lol on Morg being in charge of RPer of the month. :lol

[TheHolo.Net]

There is no 'set method'. I say make a case, get the user community behind it, and with enough support it will happen.

[Kei'suke Zendu]

If we have people (person? Christin? Bueller?) trying to revitalize the board and gain new members/increase activity, it seems really stupid to not have moderators in place who are actually, you know, around and active on the board. I looked at the staff list, and it's basically all the same people, just with different accounts.

I don't expect the people who take care of the technical aspects to make stickied threads or arrange writing challenges or whatever, but moderators could. And should. Having one or two people actually trying to change things is pointless when no-one else wants to make an effort. Or people will band-wagon jump and then fuck off after a month or two.

Is it possible to give someone sticky powers (lol) without giving them the whole Mod powers thing? Maybe have like, SwFans Goodwill Ambassadors who come up with ideas to get people interested and posting.


Cos, I'll be perfectly honest. Until I actually spent time in the chat with people, I didn't want to post here. Everyone is busy doing their own thing and if you don't have a part to play in those stories, it's daunting as fuck to get started. I had no idea what the fuck was going on In Universe, and if we want to actually BE BUSY with new people, we need to change the status quo and DO THINGS.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

what a chat box could make people interested in posting what was that?

;)

[Michael Cline]

Cos, I'll be perfectly honest. Until I actually spent time in the chat with people, I didn't want to post here. Everyone is busy doing their own thing and if you don't have a part to play in those stories, it's daunting as fuck to get started. I had no idea what the fuck was going on In Universe, and if we want to actually BE BUSY with new people, we need to change the status quo and DO THINGS.

THIS. I've been gone for at least 5 years. I'll admit to popping in every once in a while and lurking, and just seeing everyone doing their things. It was reassuring to know that people were still here, but I never really felt like I could come back. It wasn't until I started getting hit up on AIM, and found myself added to the group AIM chat that I actually felt like I could start posting again. Even then its been a struggle to convince myself that I can be a part of this community, or even should be a part of this community when I haven't been here in so long.

I can't help but wonder if there aren't other people feeling the same way who'd come back with a little outreach, and that definitely sounds like something moderators should be doing. Or, like Mandi said, some sort of community ambassadors. Something to generate interest and activity, at least.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Frankly, and personally, I wouldn't want to put forth a ton of effort on behalf of a board who's staff is not interested in/being helpful in promoting or being active/helpful/doing staff things.

[Captain Untouchable]

I hear where your coming from Jenny, but I think your argument is a double-edged sword. If we have to be proactive in order to earn our way onto the Staff, then by the same token shouldn't the Staff also be proactive? Shouldn't it work both ways?

Like I said earlier, I think most of what Holly, Atreyu, and I are saying stems from the fact that we don't know what the Staff is meant to be doing. You admit yourselves that there isn't really a job spec for being a Moderator. This means that the community doesn't know what you're supposed to be doing (and thus we have no idea whether you're actually doing it or not), but also it means that you guys don't know what you're expected to do either.

There are some things, like Holly points out, that we as community members can take partial ownership of: but there are also obstacles. We can create and edit all the wiki pages we want, but we can't delete any wiki pages because the decision has been made that you need to be a mod (or admin?) to do that. We can submit all the image claims we want, but no one in the community can actually uphold the "once you have more than 10 posts it gets added to your account" rule, because we don't have the permissions to do that: you have to be an Admin. As Holly said, we can certainly take ownership of the voting part of RP of the Month, but we can't sticky threads, we can't do fancy things to draw attention to roleplays that the community has voted to recognise, because we don't have access privileges.

Yes, we can do stuff, and we can pester the Staff to do the things we can't... but wouldn't it be easier if it was a Staff member's job?

To be blunt: as community leaders, should you not be the ones leading the community?

And pardon me for saying this Holly: but the two of us almost never agree on anything. If you've got Holly and me on the same page about something, that probably means there's a good point in there somewhere. :uhoh


EDIT:


It wasn't until I started getting hit up on AIM, and found myself added to the group AIM chat that I actually felt like I could start posting again.

This is another thing. I keep seeing "as we discussed in the chat" being brought up in discussions around here, but I know nothing of this fabled chat. There's no post anywhere telling people that it even exists, let alone who to talk to or how to get invited. Hell, I didn't realise it was an AIM chat until just now - I thought there was an IRC or a chat room somewhere that I just didn't have a link to.

By it's very nature, something like this excludes new people; also, because I can't read fast enough (because of my medical condition) to keep up with the rate at which y'all post in chats, I can't be a part of that either. Being able to chat about ideas in real time is great in theory, but as two people have pointed out already, our super secret back-room approach to planning makes us something of an exclusive, rather than inclusive community. That's probably not a smart tactic if we're hoping to get new members in the coming months.

I don't think a chat box is the way to go (sorry Holly, I just think it's too small and cramped to be useful), but if there is going to be an ongoing group chat, it needs to be publicly accessible: or at the very least, publicised somewhere.

[Kei'suke Zendu]

If we had new members, I'm sure they'd be included in chats about threads/posting/whatever, but guess what? Right now half the characters on the board ARE ALL THE SAME PEOPLE. Until that changes, I don't really see the need for an IRC/chat-room when people have IM.

Plus, you know, people POST OOC THREADS ABOUT THREADS.

[Michael Cline]

By it's very nature, something like this excludes new people; also, because I can't read fast enough (because of my medical condition) to keep up with the rate at which y'all post in chats, I can't be a part of that either. Being able to chat about ideas in real time is great in theory, but as two people have pointed out already, our super secret back-room approach to planning makes us something of an exclusive, rather than inclusive community. That's probably not a smart tactic if we're hoping to get new members in the coming months.

I'm not specifically saying "Needs to be the chat" but more that there needs to be an outreach. Chat, IM, PM, e-mail, what have you. If people felt like they were a part of the community more, and that there was an open line of communication to them they'd be more apt to be active. Some of us need a push, and the chat (as an example) has been great for re-sparking our interest, but it was also the fact that at the same time, or round about the same time Mandi started IMing me and having conversations with me again, and suddenly I went from not talking to any of the people on the board for years, to feeling like I was part of the conversation again.

[Captain Untouchable]

Don't get me wrong: personally, I'd prefer it if there wasn't a chat at all. My brain isn't able to process information very quickly any more because of a medical condition I have, so I literally cannot take part in a group chat like that. All I'm saying is, since so many people seem to feel that one of those is necessary, I think it should be something that anyone off the street can walk into and take part in. If you're new, or if you're old and coming back... it should be something that you don't need to "know people" before you can join.

Generally speaking, new people don't already know people. We need to put as few roadblocks in the way of people joining our community, IMO.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

A chat box doesn't need to be small and cramped, the one at swrpg seems nice enough to me. But that's an entirely different kettle of fish and not what this thread is about.

[Kei'suke Zendu]

I dont feel like one is necessary, but if there was a thread telling me what the fuck is going on the Star Wars based part of the forums, I wouldn't have had to ask anyone.

75% of the chat is NOT Fans related, and most of the related stuff is "Where do I need to post?" and shit.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Yeah, the chat is basically people saying "i had pie for dinner" and "how do I tie a bow tie" it isn't like a super secret planning base or something.

[Captain Untouchable]

Yeah, the chat is basically people saying "i had pie for dinner" and "how do I tie a bow tie" it isn't like a super secret planning base or something.

The comments you guys made in one of the recent(ish) Jedi threads beg to differ? The only reason I know the chat exists is because you guys said you'd been discussing ideas in said chat thread. Again, because I've never seen it or been in it, I have no information about it beyond the references you guys have made. :uhoh


If we had new members, I'm sure they'd be included in chats about threads/posting/whatever, but guess what? Right now half the characters on the board ARE ALL THE SAME PEOPLE. Until that changes, I don't really see the need for an IRC/chat-room when people have IM.

Plus, you know, people POST OOC THREADS ABOUT THREADS.

Part of the problem here I think is that, as you say, half the characters on the boards are the same people, and those people have IM. With that in mind, an OOC thread about an IC thread is arguably also redundant, because up until now there haven't been enough people around for it to be necessary. In the past, we posted OOC's about threads more than we do currently: the chat seems to have taken the place of that.

I can only speak for myself on this, but personally I've never expected anyone to be interested enough in the stuff I write for an OOC thread to even be necessary. Sarah and I did a thread recently and were absolutely stunned to discover that people were even reading it at all: let alone following it with enough interest for us to need to explain things. It wasn't until Charley turned into a big fluffy praise monster and started posting rep comments up the wazoo that we had any kind of clue. I have a lot of characters, but few who have enough storyline impact for anyone to actually give a monkeys: so if I did create an OOC thread for an IC thread, I would feel like a pretentious ass for doing so. That's just me, but it may be a similar story for others.

I'm not disagreeing with your point in the slightest: the more context and information we can provide, the more accessible we're going to be. I just don't think this is a need that has ever occurred to us in the past since, generally speaking, we tend to underestimate the interest people have in our stuff?

It might be worth reconsidering how certain perks are dished out: Supporter status lets you see who has viewed a thread, which (combined with Rep comments) is a good indicator of whether or not a thread is popular... but it only unlocks for the account you buy it for. Decisions like that sort of thing are above my pay grade, but it might be "good for morale" if we were able to let everyone see how many hits their threads are getting? I don't think those of us who chip in for hosting fees are actually doing it to buy the perks. :uhoh

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Again, we are straying from the main point of the thread, I feel.

[Kei'suke Zendu]

Let me put it this way.


If I was doing a thread with someone new, or someone I do not have on AIM/IM, I would most likely private message them or try to contact them to discuss ideas. Since most if not all of the active roleplayers are already on IM, it's easy to get in touch with them via the chat. if I wasn't in the chat, I'd be posting a thread because that seems like the most proactive way to get shit done.

I'm sorry if you somehow feel left out, but as much as we need to reach out to people, if you want to roleplay with someone, you need to reach to them as well. I've read things new people have posted and sent them pms and added them on AIM for like, ever. THERE ARE NO FUCKING NEW PEOPLE! HALF THE CHARACTERS ARE ALREADY PEOPLE WHO ROLEPLAY HERE!


Tide - I cant see what people read my threads, and I could really give a FART.

[Captain Untouchable]

This isn't about "feeling left out". A big theme running through this discussion (and other discussions on the board) is one of preparedness for when new people arrive: specifically in this thread, making sure that we have a Staff that is prepared for that, and that can make Fans look good, look active, and look welcoming.

If we're excluding people when there are bugger all new people around, it'll be even worse when potential new people show up. We'll never get new people, if we don't make ourselves into an environment where people will want to come.

But, as Holly keeps saying, we're straying from the point of the thread somewhat.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

I have thoughts on this, but will post them when I get home.

[Morgan Evanar]

Right now I think both Chris and I are primarily technical staff. I can usually react a bit faster than he can, but I have a lot of balls in the air for stuff that's my various aspects of life, so right now roleplaying isn't a huge thing.

Other topics:
I do think from a participatory standpoint doing most of the planning in a OOC thread for an IC thread would make things much more accessible.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Dasq, you're right that proactive staff in the past were probably already that way prior to taking on the position. But honestly, you've got to start somewhere. From the way I'm reading this discussion it seems no one is really responsible for anything anywhere (content wise) ... so nothing gets done at all. :\

People can do these things (RPer of the month etc) without needing a mod title, but if we decide to make such things an actual responsibility of the mod team going forward there's someone that can be followed up with should it not be getting done. Not to mention that mod powers automatically give a much larger range of abilities such as stickying threads etc.

As for who is going to be a mod to do this sort of thing, we'll only know once we throw open nominations for new mods and see who responds. But I think having this stuff clarified first is important so anyone putting their hand up knows what they're volunteering for.



EDIT: I suppose on a related note, what do current staff think of these ideas (in terms of expanded mod responsibilities)? Is Morg (or whoever) happy if we tell him he's now responsible for RPer of the month etc? Any proposed initiatives are going to effect current staff as well as any new ones.
Coming back to defining what we the board wish our staff to do, any thoughts on that?

Obviously settling disputes between posters, sniping spammers, deleting double posts, but also running things like RPer of the Month, football pick threads (or at least stickying them), being more proactive in generating content and being active...

Also, can we come to a consensus on removing inactive staff members?

edit: didn't see Morg's post, but I agree that he and a Ogre are our technical staff, and so not really people who would be expected to drive things forward, although they are here to help the board do what it wants to do, in a volunteer, real-Life-stuff goes on and we understand that way.

[Captain Untouchable]

Like I said before, I think it'd help to know what the difference between Admin and Moderator is before we get into what we expect our staff to do.

To use a specific example, the Image Claims thread. The system is meant to be that after an account has ten posts (ie. it will show up in the search) the image claim from the thread is transferred to the account's profile. This needs to be done by rummaging around behind the scenes, and thus requires a certain level of access to admin functions. Can Moderators do this, or can this task only be performed by an Admin? Is it something that could be added to the Moderator staff in isolation (ie. just access to be able to do that, not access to the rest of the stuff), or is it all or nothing?

Depending on the answer to questions like that, we might have different expectations for Moderators versus Admins. If only an Admin can do it, we need to make sure there is an Admin with enough time on their hands to get it done. If there's a way to tweak the settings and delegate the task to a Moderator (or all Moderators), that's a whole different kettle of fish.

Hell, I'm not allowed to work, so I have a lot of free time on my hands. If it's possible to tick some boxes so that I can potter around doing busywork like that, I would genuinely enjoy playing secretary/janitor so that it frees up the actual staff for the important discussions/decisions/etc. I'm not interested in titles, I'm just a fidgety workaholic with no outlet, and it bugs me seeing stuff not getting done. :uhoh

[Atreyu]

Also, can we come to a consensus on removing inactive staff members?
I still propose my method I mentioned on the previous page. To elaborate a little bit:

1. Contact the inactive staff members
2. Note that we've noticed they've been largely absent in recent times, and ask that things are going ok. :glomp
3. Inform them that the board is undergoing few changes, which includes a look at revamping the staff (member-wise and responsibility-wise).
4. Ask if they see themselves being a part of this new revamp, or if they may wish to instead bow out and retire** gracefully.

(** - my preferred word over, say, 'demote', which to me carries negative connotations - some people have been on staff for years and deserve a bit of respect afterall :))

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Ok, home now.


On the matter of outlining what admins and mods are expected to do, I agree. To my recollection, there was never any set list of tasks made; new mods were just given basic crash courses and the older mods provided help and minor guidance. The hierarchy of powers as I understand them are pretty much only two-tiered. Admins, who are able to delve to the bottom of the site and alter its' layout/code/etc, and mods, who are able to do surface tasks such as thread moving/stickying/etc. To be quite honest, the difference between a group mod and a main mod is nonexistant. Where the group mods cannot edit things in the main rp-ing forums, the rp mods cannot modify anything in the group mod forums. So frankly, the two are the same thing just with different territories and different names. I do recall there being a super mod category, which has/had the same level of abilities that the old main mods used to have before we upgraded from (I think) the first version of vB.

Now, I may be seeing the power structure incorrectly, but that is how I've always perceived it.





Obviously settling disputes between posters, sniping spammers, deleting double posts, but also running things like RPer of the Month, football pick threads (or at least stickying them), being more proactive in generating content and being active...


Settling disputes (to the best of the staff's abilities) is something that is done, but these disputes are few and far between. Frankly, it's one of those duties that follows the old saying 'no news is good news'.

Sniping spammers is done as well, and the staff is always grateful for the heads-up since none of us are omniscient. Sometimes it is a multi-stage thing though, as a mod may be available to delete the post right off the bat, but an admin is needed for the banning when they jump online.

Deleting double posts is something I am well acquainted with, and while I tend to catch a fair share, I know that there are others that slip through the cracks of threads I've not yet had a chance to open up. That's when reported posts are most appreciated.

RPer of the month I feel should be a shared thing; if someone from the staff or a member starts the thread, then kudos. It's not a responsibility that I feel should solely rest on the shoulders of the staff.

Football pick threads I feel the same way about.

As for being proactive about generating content, I do believe that this should be a given. However there is a catch. I will use myself as an example, here. I made this (http://sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?55487-What-s-on-your-playlist!) thread and this (http://sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?55419-Let-s-Make-Pulp-Covers-for-Our-Threads!) thread; the first for encouraging people to post up the music that inspires their writing (with the added benefit of possibly introducing someone to a band/group previously unheard of), and the second to provide a bit of fun in stimulating member-driven RP related art. The latter thread, especially, was posted to. But only by two others. I'm not saying 'rawr post to these threads you jerks' in any way, but what I want to illustrate in a small fashion is that the staff can be proactive about posting content. We can share the cool things that we stumble upon. But if the members themselves don't participate, then there's nothing we can do for that content-related thread. We're not going to pull the old 'if you have time to be online you have time to post' bullcrap, because that's not us, and that's not this site. It never has been.



Defining the parameters of what it means to be an admin and a mod is fine. I'm all for doing that, and will help any way that I can.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Also, can we come to a consensus on removing inactive staff members?
I still propose my method I mentioned on the previous page. To elaborate a little bit:

1. Contact the inactive staff members
2. Note that we've noticed they've been largely absent in recent times, and ask that things are going ok. :glomp
3. Inform them that the board is undergoing few changes, which includes a look at revamping the staff (member-wise and responsibility-wise).
4. Ask if they see themselves being a part of this new revamp, or if they may wish to instead bow out and retire** gracefully.

(** - my preferred word over, say, 'demote', which to me carries negative connotations - some people have been on staff for years and deserve a bit of respect afterall :))
I think this is a good idea, so I guess if we're voting I vote this.

Admins can do more on the back end of the site (style sets, monitor rep comments, ban people as some examples), as well as alter user information, reset passwords, add topic icons, smileys, that sort of thing. The Staff mods have the same powers as the group mods, just over the RP forums (and all the group forums as well). We did used to have "Super Moderators" which were the staff moderators but they could do additional things like alter user info (CTs, search the user database easily, I forget what else.) We lost those many years ago, unfortunately, making the staff moderators have to wait for an admin to be online to take care of more issues than they used to.

As far as role, I see an admin like a manager and the mods are assistant managers?

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

The Staff mods have the same powers as the group mods, just over the RP forums (and all the group forums as well).

From my experience, this is not true. I was never able to step in and edit things in the group forums; the empire forum being the exception since I was a mod there as well. But if something needed deleting in the Jedi or Alliance forums or the other groups? Nope. Can't help you. You're going to need a mod for that specific forum. Main board moderators lost ALOT of their previous abilities when we moved on from the first version of vB.

[TheHolo.Net]

The Staff mods have the same powers as the group mods, just over the RP forums (and all the group forums as well).

From my experience, this is not true. I was never able to step in and edit things in the group forums; the empire forum being the exception since I was a mod there as well. But if something needed deleting in the Jedi or Alliance forums or the other groups? Nope. Can't help you. You're going to need a mod for that specific forum. Main board moderators lost ALOT of their previous abilities when we moved on from the first version of vB.This is something I was not aware of. It will need to be re-visited and fixed. Staff Mods should be able to moderate site wide.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Ah. I am glad to be corrected, then.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

If you go to the bottom of a group forum it says who moderates it and our board mods in bold are listed on each of them. If you've tried to edit something in one and it didn't work I don't know why that would be. If you're just assuming you can't, then maybe try stickying a thread in the Circle forum and see if it works.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

It is nothing to do with assumption. I knew that it didn't work because I have tried in the past when people asked me to delete double posts, and I was unable. Like I said, I am going by my experience.

[TheHolo.Net]

It is nothing to do with assumption. I knew that it didn't work because I have tried in the past when people asked me to delete double posts, and I was unable. Like I said, I am going by my experience.Should work now. See the test post I made (with a regular account) in the Enclave for a chance to try it

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Deleted the post. Much thanks.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

It is nothing to do with assumption. I knew that it didn't work because I have tried in the past when people asked me to delete double posts, and I was unable. Like I said, I am going by my experience.
Then I am the one who has assumed, as you guys are listed on each of the forums. :)

A little communication between staff members goes a long way, I think, unfortunately, this just illustrates that either the board staff doesn't talk to each other or feels like they can't? Something like that could have been solved ages ago. No offense meant to the parties involved, but it is a bit ridiculous. :)

[TheHolo.Net]

It is nothing to do with assumption. I knew that it didn't work because I have tried in the past when people asked me to delete double posts, and I was unable. Like I said, I am going by my experience.
Then I am the one who has assumed, as you guys are listed on each of the forums. :)

A little communication between staff members goes a long way, I think, unfortunately, this just illustrates that either the board staff doesn't talk to each other or feels like they can't? Something like that could have been solved ages ago. No offense meant to the parties involved, but it is a bit ridiculous. :)Of which you are guilty of as well. Now that you have quit helping with styles and any other admin stuff since the software update, and had Dasq remove your access (however that went down), you failed to mention it to me that you no longer needed your sFTP access. And now you come down on the staff with all of this busy work and 'seemingly innocent' ideas. Something doesn't seem quite right here.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Sorry, I didn't remember about the sFTP access.

i will stop posting, my input is obviously not wanted, and is fishy for some reason? What does that even mean??

[TheHolo.Net]

When you insult the staff I get defensive.

I did not take what you said at the beginning of this topic very well. Saying 'What if he just doesn't show up again?"

I have been an admin here longer than you have been a member. I paid for the hosting, and the DNS when donations were not enough to cover it, and even before we took donations. I put fucking tons of time and effort into this place and into almost every aspect of it. I am not a former staffer who quit (twice) who now all of the sudden has all of these grievances, complaints, and ideas. I have always been here, through thick and thin, through active and inactive. Do not try and take the high ground here, you really can't. I would very much appreciate it if you would show some humility and be less condescending to your peers in the staff of this community.

Be less condesending and you will be heard.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

1. It is not my intention to insult anyone on the staff
2. I am not typing this in a condescending tone but if you choose to read it that way, I am sorry.
3. Your absence from the board has been noted by more than just me, as well as the worry in the back of the mind of "what do we do if Ogre leaves??" Because as you pointed out, you are the backbone and foundation of this forum. It does not exist without you.
4. I stepped down ONCE from the staff because with two small children at home I felt I couldn't devote the time to the position that it needed. If you're referring to my recent temporary powers to help with style sets, I was not "on the staff" and I didn't "quit" I was just no longer working on style sets so I didn't need the abilities. :huh:

[Captain Untouchable]

Okay, if I'm understanding this correctly - Chris and Chris focus on the technical side (and are both busy), which leaves Jenny (who is also busy) to look after password issues, custom titles, image claims, and all of that user profile setting changes type editing stuff? I know Morg responds to things when he can, but it sounds like there's a lot (too much) that Jenny is the only one with the access permissions to deal with.

Maybe it'd be worth giving one or two of the existing moderators a little more access so they can help share the load? It's sounding more and more like the problem is access, not activity: we've got people here willing to do stuff, they just don't have the ability to. Having someone like Christin as a Super Moderator or an extra Admin means we've got better time zone coverage, we've got a back-up in case Jenny is snowed under / away / unavailable, and it'd make lives easier all round?

Perhaps this isn't a question of whether or not we need new people, but rather whether or not we can make better use of the people we already have.

[TheHolo.Net]

Okay, if I'm understanding this correctly - Chris and Chris focus on the technical side (and are both busy), which leaves Jenny (who is also busy) to look after password issues, custom titles, image claims, and all of that user profile setting changes type editing stuff? I know Morg responds to things when he can, but it sounds like there's a lot (too much) that Jenny is the only one with the access permissions to deal with.

Maybe it'd be worth giving one or two of the existing moderators a little more access so they can help share the load? It's sounding more and more like the problem is access, not activity: we've got people here willing to do stuff, they just don't have the ability to. Having someone like Christin as a Super Moderator or an extra Admin means we've got better time zone coverage, we've got a back-up in case Jenny is snowed under / away / unavailable, and it'd make lives easier all round?

Perhaps this isn't a question of whether or not we need new people, but rather whether or not we can make better use of the people we already have.Good points. I believe staff that creates new content (that may or may not attract new members and renewed activity) is another aspect in this staff member request. Blending the 'lets be relevant..' topic with this one in my eyes.

[TheHolo.Net]

1. It is not my intention to insult anyone on the staff
2. I am not typing this in a condescending tone but if you choose to read it that way, I am sorry.
3. Your absence from the board has been noted by more than just me, as well as the worry in the back of the mind of "what do we do if Ogre leaves??" Because as you pointed out, you are the backbone and foundation of this forum. It does not exist without you.
4. I stepped down ONCE from the staff because with two small children at home I felt I couldn't devote the time to the position that it needed. If you're referring to my recent temporary powers to help with style sets, I was not "on the staff" and I didn't "quit" I was just no longer working on style sets so I didn't need the abilities. :huh:1. I feel you did
2. Apology accepted even if my poor personal communication skills cant convince you that you came across as condescending/insulting to the staff
3. What occurs in chats, PMs, and off these boards 'did not happen' in my eyes. I am not aware of what I am not told or cannot see here. If I were gone, the board would not exist. At the very least the URLs would be lost for years
4. You had access to the super secret mods and admins forum, and certain aspects of the adminCP, that's a staffer if you ask me.

[Dasquian Belargic]

It would be useful to me, as an admin, to understand where people feel like I am not performing expected duties.

What kind of things do you want me to be doing, in what time scale, with what level of visibility, etc.

[Captain Untouchable]

Disclaimer: this is not me having a go at you. Like I said already, I personally feel like you're expected to do the work of more than one person. That said -

1) The General RP Image Claims thread has claims from as far back as July 2012 that haven't been actioned. The oldest ones are Banner Laverick and Flux who have hundreds of posts each, and most definitely were over the 10 post limit when the claim was made. It's a long list, and there are a lot of claims that aren't valid yet; but it looks (to the uninformed eye) that image claims haven't been dealt with for nearly two years.

2) The Star Wars RP Image Claims thread also has claims from June 2012. Some of these are smaller numbers, so might not have become valid until most recently, but Molly Black certainly had enough posts two years ago to have been updated straight away.

3) The Custom Title Tombola thread has requests from 2012 that haven't been responded to. There are also requests from earlier this year, after Charley necro'd the thread. I realise that you need submissions and inspiration to create CTs for people, but you created the thread, and you are the only person (aside from Chris & Chris) who can apply CTs at this time. If you need to solicit suggestions from the community, that's something that needs to be communicated to us. Unless you tell us, we have no way to know the difference between "I need suggestions" and "I am not doing this": it's equally invisible to us.

Those are the ones that I personally have noticed: others may have other examples. I realise those are pretty mundane, trivial things to point out... but as I've said before, this is literally all we have to base our perceptions on. You guys don't tell us every time the staff settles a dispute behind the scenes. You guys don't tell us every time you reset a password. A lot of work was done with style sheets and such by people with staff permissions when the boards changed over, but the community's exposure was "okay, it's done now" - we have no idea what kind of workload you're under, because it's all unseen.

Personally, my assumption is that you've got too much work and are too busy for the smaller stuff, which is why I've suggested help: a two year backlog suggests that assistance is something you need. However, I think you can forgive people for jumping to the other conclusion as well. Like Ogre said, the stuff that happens in PMs and IMs and such doesn't exist: what happens on the board is all we've got to go on. If we don't see you doing stuff, we have no way of knowing that you're doing stuff.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I don't think anyone is currently 'under performing' the duties that have been expected of them, and I sincerely apologize if anything I've said comes across as that.

had I known I was officially a staff member I would not have had the access removed at all. As I was told it was access just to help fix styles so it felt wrong to hold into that power when I was not a staff member.

[Captain Untouchable]

Getting back to the progressive part of the discussion -

Over in the let's be relevant (http://theholo.net/forum/showthread.php?55546-Let-s-be-relevant-again) thread, Ogre suggested that maybe things like Facebook and sorta "community outreach" might be the kind of job that requires a new administrator. Mark suggested getting back to our roots as SW vs Titanic and trying to bolster the discussion/debate/OOC side of the community, and he's got a good point: the new movies are just as likely to give us potential movie opinions members as they are new roleplayers. Unlike when the prequels came out, we have platforms like not just Facebook, but also Tumblr and Twitter, and so on. There are news sites like Screenrant, io9, The Mary Sue, and so on that offer reviews and editorials, and it's easier than ever for people to blog their opinions - and we've got the capacity to provide at least some of that via articles, blogs, and the front page.

Ogre's suggestion of a Facebook/outreach/media admin seems to me like a really good idea. It's extra work rather than existing work, so it makes sense to add an extra person to do it.

It also brings up a couple of question marks about group moderators as well. If the difference between a group and global moderator is just a matter of jurisdiction, then is the way we're currently doing it the best way to divide it up? Does it still make sense for us to have faction-based group moderators, or are there alternative options that would work better, given how all of us are sorta sprawled across all of the factions nowadays? Maybe it'd make sense to split moderators by setting, rather than by faction? We've separated the boards into "Star Wars" and "General" already, and a little while back we added Andrew to the Global Moderators to make sure there was someone in there who could keep an eye on the General stuff (because Christin wasn't actively roleplaying in that side of things at the time).

Taking it a step further, what if we had a "Star Wars" team of group moderators, a "General" team of group moderators, and a "Discussion" team of group moderators. Star Wars moderators would look after sticky threads and thread deletion in all of the SW forums; General in all of the general forums; and Discussion people can handle stickied sports threads, articles and front page, that sort of stuff. Perhaps the Global Mods (who have Staff voting privileges, etc) could function as "team leaders" for the group/zone moderators, so we've still got a hierarchy, but a more functional one based on how we are now, rather than how we were.

Also, if there's a distinction made between Star Wars moderators and General moderators, etc, that potentially makes it easier for new people to find who to talk to. We have fewer, bigger buckets to catch questions - if you have a "what the hell is going on in this setting?" question, you've got a whole team of faces to contact, not just people pidgeon-holed into specific factions.

Also, a broader scope would allow people to be set up as a moderator on their "main" account rather than a faction-appropriate one: people would know to contact Captain Untouchable as opposed to Vansen Tyree; and because I'd be actively posting OOC as my group moderator account, it makes me more visible and easier to find.

Just spitballing. :)

[TheHolo.Net]

Group mods also serve the function of access to private forums and as an indicator of group leadership, but that is up for debate as well. The layers of complexity for what we have setup over the many years are fairly deep and interconnected. Some of those interconnections are easy to overlook and/or forget.

[Captain Untouchable]

Are there any private forums left? I thought we'd got rid of them all.

Also, the old user faction groups that we brought over from the old boards seem to be slowly getting replaced by the new kind of user group that we gained with the new forum software. Those are moderated by whoever set them up; we've never had any sort of staff/community discussion or decision of who should be administering those things, they've just sorta been popping up.

As far as group moderators being faction leaders, I think we've "broken" that, too. With the way that we've rearranged the Star Wars forums, the moderators no longer necessarily correspond with a particular faction. We've also got a lot of duplication, where a player is set up as a group moderator with multiple different characters (sometimes multiples in the same forum), so it makes it seem like there are more flesh-and-blood people leading things than there actually are. Sorry to pick on you again, Jenny, but you've got four different characters in four different forums set up as a group moderator; when technically you don't necessarily need any, because your admin access umbrellas over all of that.

Also, even though we deemed Mutants Unite and World of Darkness significant enough to warrant their own forum, we never appointed any group moderators to look after that: all we've got is Andrew, as a global moderator for everything non-Star Wars.

We should definitely still have "Faction Leaders", especially if we're hoping to increase our player population... but I don't think it works to regard group moderators and faction leaders as the same thing any more.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

A mod or two more for MU and WoD would be a wonderful thing, I think.

As far as faction leaders, I agree that those and group mods should be separate. Also, tying somewhat into what was mentioned during the reordering and what to call the groups aside from 'factions', perhaps we could rename those leaders 'Mentors'? Just a thought.



So then, as I'm seeing it, the staff structure being proposed might look something like this?



TheHolo.Net
|
Admins
|
Global Moderators
|
SW RP Moderators - General RP Moderators - Discussion Moderators
|
Faction Leaders

I really hope I haven't forgotten anything.

[Captain Untouchable]

That's pretty much how it is in my mind.

I'm not sure if Faction Leader needs to be a specific rank, though. Having a moderator style rank is to do with what admin permissions you have, whereas being a faction leader is more about leading discussions, driving forward plots, and being visible and approachable to people who have questions. Christin and Jenny should absolutely be faction leaders, but if we make it a rank, no one is going to "know" that they are faction leaders, because their rank will say Admin. In fact, I'd wager that the vast majority of faction leaders are going to be a moderator of some sort... it just strikes me as the sort of thing where there is going to be a lot of overlap.

Maybe Faction Leader is something we can execute with a badge, an icon, a CT, a series of little pictures under the avatar, that sort of thing? Something so that when people (sorry for using you as an example yet again, Jenny!) look at the Dasquian Belargic account, they see a) administrator, but also b) faction leader for Alliance, Empire, Jedi, Circle, etc.

I feel like the two shouldn't be mutually exclusive, if that makes sense?

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

It makes sense to me. Treating the status of a faction leader as something of a blanket that can be overlayed seems a natural thing. People like Holly and Charley are good examples of what faction leaders should be doing. Charley's Vangaurds thread, and all of the planning that he did and folks he pulled into the story to tell an amazing yarn. Holly does a lot for the Jedi group and is inclusive to all, and is always ready and willing to help out with reconnecting old and new members alike to the galaxy that we've developed.

Though I also feel that anyone can be a faction leader, and that just because someone might not be a mod or admin they shouldn't be excluded from being a leader. Of course I may just be stating a given, heh.

[Charley]

What would faction leaders do?

I mean it sounds like all the tidying up and stuff is handled by the admins and mods and that's pretty cool and concise to me. Would faction leaders be kinda like loose game-masters in a way? Example - Holly's initiative in the Jedi forum about having a stockpile of mission threads. That was a wicked clever idea and I could kinda see FL's being not so much in the nuts and bolts of thread tidying and such but maybe the more storytelling operations of "hey gang we as a group are gonna try to get a big thing going, who's in" sort of thing. I mean obviously thats not the only wellspring of ideas in a group, but anybody putting forth plans and such I feel that if we did have a FL, they would be tasked with kind of arranging those ideas and tying them up with a bow to make it easier for folks to get eyes on them and to participate.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

The reason I posted this thread was simply to find out if we had a process for replacing inactive staff members. I do sincerely apologize if anyone was offended, and I know who you are, if I wondered aloud what we do if they don't show up again. We would be genuinely fucked if Ogre disappeared. I did not mean to imply that he had disappeared or even that he was disappearing, only that I hadn't seen him around lately much at all.

Anyway, whatever happened after that, I was following the conversation as it happened, and I stuck my foot in my mouth a few times. I'm sorry.

i have spent a good fourteen years here at Swfans, admin-ed it for a chunk of that time, and have tried to be an active and helpful member before and since my time on the staff. I have gotten a great deal of negative responses in the last day or so, which is why I'm not going to be posting for the time being. I will probably come back and write my characters after some of the drama in my actual life settles down, but that's probably it. If the groups I moderate want to remove me, they can, just PM me and let me know, otherwise when I come back I will continue to do that for them and apologize for any inconvenience my absence may cause.

[Captain Untouchable]

What would faction leaders do?

I mean it sounds like all the tidying up and stuff is handled by the admins and mods and that's pretty cool and concise to me. Would faction leaders be kinda like loose game-masters in a way? Example - Holly's initiative in the Jedi forum about having a stockpile of mission threads. That was a wicked clever idea and I could kinda see FL's being not so much in the nuts and bolts of thread tidying and such but maybe the more storytelling operations of "hey gang we as a group are gonna try to get a big thing going, who's in" sort of thing. I mean obviously thats not the only wellspring of ideas in a group, but anybody putting forth plans and such I feel that if we did have a FL, they would be tasked with kind of arranging those ideas and tying them up with a bow to make it easier for folks to get eyes on them and to participate.

What if we went a step further, and instead of "Faction Leaders" we had "Story Leaders"?

With Star Wars, and especially with Fans, the people at the top of the pile aren't really the ones who matter. It isn't the Jedi Council who travels to Naboo and meets Anakin, who thwarts the Trade Federation, and whose exploits we follow in the Clone Wars: it's Qui Gon and it's Obi Wan and it's Luke and Han... it's rank and file people who the story focuses on. Lately, Fans has been very much like that this time around (since Reset): there's much less focus on Empresses and governments and Senators and much more focus on smugglers and pilots and gangsters and Jedi refugees. The upper echelon characters are there, but they're facilitators as much as anything else - they're the guest stars that a TV show brings in to move things along: for most of us, it's the "regular people" that are important.

That's something I think we should be incredibly proud of, and should make a big deal about, because that is a much easier situation to get on board with. Coming into a roleplay community that takes it's factions and it's status super seriously can make it feel very hard to get started. If you're coming into a situation where almost everyone is a Padawan, then starting out as a Padawan isn't so bad by comparison. Things like the Novgorod, like Cloud City and Tatooine keep the playing field level: it's about how good your character is, and how good your story is. Even when it comes to the Alliance Senate, to Hapan nobility, to the Corporate Sector: you come in at the same level that everyone else does within that context. If you want to play a Senator, then you can play a Senator: you don't have to spend years earning ranks and ascending up the tree. That level playing field makes it much easier (in theory) for new people to interact with us old people. Join the Black Sun gang on Cloud City, and straight away you're talking to Sanis Prent. Join the Corellian resistance, and you're having drinks with Jamo Jakatta. Join SpecForce, get assigned to the Novgorod, and you're in Cirrseeto's ship, hanging out with Lyanie and Mara Tallen.

To me, something like "Story Leader" sounds friendlier, because it makes it seem like we treat the story of the Novgorod or Tatooine or Corellia with just the same respect as we treat the story of the Jedi, the Empire, and the entire galaxy: which is true, and is the reason that I have never been able to find a roleplaying community like this one anywhere else on the internet.

Having "Story Leaders" to keep momentum going in RP sections, and "Community Leaders" to keep discussions, games, sports debates, etc in OOC sections seems like the most Fans-style way of doing things, to me.

[Morgan Evanar]

That's a dang good idea.

[Charley]

I like that because it then falls on them to organize interest and gather ideas from interested folks to work into the next plotline. Kinda what we sort of do already, but more of a thing where, say, Emelie Shadowstar can post in OOC "alright all you cloud city people, we're gonna have a big thread about a mysterious murder" and get folks who are already vested into the larger plot to chime in on how they plan to be involved, or if they feel it would even involve them. We gather up the folks who want in, and then jump into the fray.

[Captain Untouchable]

That's my thinking, yeah.

I dunno about anyone else, but I always get a bit anxious when I try and make plots happen, for fear of stepping on toes and rubbing people up the wrong way. Making it clear that mod/admin has no bearing on story stuff (by having a separate system) is probably gonna be at least a little bit reassuring for chronic worrier type people like me. ^_^;

[Charley]

I'm a bull in a china shop with that. I throw a story idea on the wall and see if it sticks and only give a damn if someone specifically mentions there is a conflict.

[Captain Untouchable]

It looks like we've reached the point where everyone has contributed the opinions and ideas they want to at this point. It also seems like a few things have started to be put into action already (Christin seems to be a full admin now - congrats!), but if there has been any sort of "We here what you're saying, this is what we're going to do" response / explanation from the staff, I've not seen it. Since communication was one of the issues raised here, it might be a smart idea to have some sort of game plan announcement, particularly for the benefit of people who haven't necessarily been following this discussion.

If the staff are still discussing things amongst themselves, fair enough: but as has been said already, we don't know that unless you tell us. :)

[Vince]

A bit late on this, but that story leader thing is probably one of the best ideas I've read in this thread, and that's saying something, because it has some great ones.