TPM revisited

[CMJ]

I hadn't watched TPM in over a year. I'm really not sure how long it's been...somewhere between 12-18 months probably. Anyways, in preperation for ROTS on Thursday I popped the sucker in and gave it another go(viewing # in the 20's I'd guess...so yeah way under JLB's total from the theaters ;) ).

Maybe it was the fact that it'd been so long, maybe that my expectations were so low, or perhaps because ROTS is coming out in a few days, but it was way better than I remembered it being. I mean way better.

It's still the weakest of the lot. And it's still the Hobbit of the series but the issues I've had in the past didn't strike me as AS major this time.

The film seemed alot more tragic this time. Though I'm remarkably spoiler free even watching Anakin in the previews makes the dude look like the devil(hell yeah baby!) So watching this sweet innocent 9-10 year old boy who in 15 years is gonna have those Maul like eyes was more jarring than I expected it to be. Even some corny throw away lines like "Are you an Angel" seemed to have added significance with Padme bawling in the trailer. Or when Anakin tells Qui Gon that no one could kill a Jedi. Compare that to the hooded figure striding in to the temple to lay a woodshed beating on God only knows who.

Anyways, this is one of those things where ROTS might improve not only the prequels but the OT. I can't wait to run thru the whole series AFTER I watch ROTS to see if it does.

[darth_mcbain]

Originally posted by CMJ
so yeah way under JLB's total from the theaters ;) ).


SHHHHH!!!! Don't say his name.... :lol

[CMJ]

He and I still trade emails every 2 months or so. He's planning on moving here to LA soon.

[Jedieb]

I may watch TPM and AOTC today and tomorrow to get ready. I'll probably watch TPM in Spanish. Both Jake and Jar Jar are a bit more palatable in Spanish.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I'm going to watch AOTC again, definetly. I don't know if I could sit through TPM though, even if it has been such a long time :\

[darth_mcbain]

Originally posted by Jedieb
Both Jake and Jar Jar are a bit more palatable in Spanish.

LOL EB... :)

I'm trying to watch all 5 movies and clone wars before hitting the theaters Wednesday night.

[Shawn]

I've seen one set of fan-edits, and they really increased my enjoyment of the movies. Virtually all of my complaints about AOTC were erased, while TPM was a much more enjoyable (albeit still pointless) film.

[Master Yoghurt]

IMO though, that says a lot about the prequels so far. You know something is terrible wrong when fans using standard video editing software on desktop computers are able to make significantly more enjoyable versions of the movies than the original cuts.

[Shawn]

Editors are often very underrated, both for movies and for novels. It becomes very obvious when an author/director decides to forgoe having an editor in favor of doing it themselves. A good editor can make or break a movie.

[JMK]

Like they say: an editor is the one that takes the film, the good parts and the bad, and puts them together in the best way possible - for which the director gets credit. ;)

I watched TPM last weekend and AotC yesterday.

TPM's weaknesses still stand out to me - like Yao Ming in Munchkinland - but like CMJ said, when you take into consideration what we know is about to happen to everyone, it adds weight to, as Shawn pointed out, a pointless movie.

After watching AotC yesterday, I've realized that my admiration for that movie has waned slightly. Something that really got to me this time was the numbers of times someone is referred to as "my young friend" or "My young padawan", or "my [add title here]"

For example:

Palpatine to council: "I don't know how long I can hold off the vote my friends..."

Obi Wan to Anakin, part 1: "We will not exceed our mandate my young padawan"

Obi Wan to Anakin, part 2: "Only in your mind my very young apprentice"

Dexter to Obi Wan: "So, my friend, what can I do for you?"

Dooku to Obi Wan part 1: "Oh no my friend, this is a mistake, a terrible mistake, they've gone too far this is madness"

Dooku to Obi Wan, part 2: "The dark side of the force has clouded their vision my friend"

Dooku to Mace: "Brave, but foolish my old Jedi friend"

Yoda to Dooku: "Fought well you have, my old padawan"

Obi Wan to Anakin, part 3: "Good call my young padawan"


I'm sure there are more, I think 3P0 calls R2 his obtuse little friend. Its just something I noticed and it was really aggravating. Why is everyone so monotonous in this universe? Shouldn't an editor have done a better job when revising the script??

[darth_mcbain]

I always hated the one Obi-Wan says to Anakin at the end after Anakin tells them to aim for the fuel cells. I've noticed the others and they didn't bug me too much, but for some reason I always didn't like that last one...

[JMK]

It's going to bother you from now on! ;)

[JMK]

http://filmforce.ign.com/starwars/articles/612/612055p1.html


This is a list of the lamest Star Wars characters of all time. Aside from two characters, one of which I severely disagree with, they are ALL from TPM. That poor movie never gets a break!

[Dasquian Belargic]

Christopher Lee? Lame? Never! :mad

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Originally posted by Dasquian Belargic
Christopher Lee? Lame? Never! :mad

[darth_mcbain]

I can't say I disagree too much with that list, with the exception of Christoper Lee. WTF? What's he doing on that list. Ok, maybe he isn't in the upper echelon of ultimate characters, but I can't see him in the bottom 10...

[JMK]

That's the one I severely disagreed with.

Dooku is one of my favorite villains in the SW universe. I think he's brought a presence that was sorely lacking in TPM.

[Shawn]

Maul shouldn't have been included in TPM and Dooku should have taken his place. He could have been the Vader of the prequel trilogy.

[CMJ]

That's just the thing, I don't think GL wanted a 'Vader' of the new trilogy. He wanted future viwers to be fully appreciate how dominant a villain Vader truly is.

Sure he is to us, but not necessarily our kids. If they watched the series in order(like all future ppl will) and there was some kick @ss villain in the first 3 movies they might not be in awe of Vader like we were.

[JMK]

I think there's a lot of merit to that, but I think having Dooku make an apperance as an apprentice in TPM and have him as the main villain in AotC and wacked in RotS would have given the Sith more credence. As with most things in the prequels so far, most have in my opinion been designed with toys and video games in mind.

[Shawn]

Originally posted by CMJ
That's just the thing, I don't think GL wanted a 'Vader' of the new trilogy. He wanted future viwers to be fully appreciate how dominant a villain Vader truly is. I understand what you're saying. In fact, I agree with it. But I just think that they should have had more development. JMK's suggestion of having the character start off as an apprentice is a good one.

Maul, especially, was hyped up as being the new Vader before TPM came out, and then he had all of 2 lines in the movie. More could have been done with him without threatening Vader's "coolness."

[Anbira Hicchoru]

It's a fine line between being a piece of scenery and being a key piece of the story. Maul didn't really need any more exposure than to make the Jedi wake up from their 1000 year complacency and realize the Sith exist.

He revealed the Sith to the Jedi, and I don't think he really needed to do anything more. He's a taste of the real evil to come.

[CMJ]

Hence the title...Phantom Menace. ;)

[Shawn]

But if Dooku had been in his place, he could have achieved much the same effect, and then continued to have more development in episodes 2-3.

I guess I just don't like the central villains being disposable characters. A good villain adds a lot to a story.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

It's really contradicting to have a central villain in a movie called The Phantom Menace, though.

[CMJ]

That's just it...to Palpatine his apprentices were expendable - until Anakin rolled around. And even then once he saw a new Skywalker even HE became expendable.

[JMK]

Palpatine is the Phantom Menace. He's the one that's right under everyone's nose, he's the one that if he was any closer he'd bite you. I think it would have added to Palpatine and Dooku's characters even more if you let Dooku do all of Palpy's dirty work during TPM and AotC. In fact I think having Dooku around could only enhance Vader's impression on people as well as give us a weighty villain that every saga needs. Saruman didn't make people second-guess Sauron. You knew who was more powerful from the get-go. If Anakin kills Dooku then takes over as Sidious' apprentice, it would go to show just how powerful he is. Instead Obi Wan took out some dude with a gimmicky double sided lightsaber that we hardly got to know, but boy, when you look back to 1999 and the hype for TPM, you see all kinds of stories about Maul being "The New Face of Evil" or a new "Icon of Evil". Don't get me wrong, I think Maul is a bad hombre but he was grossly under developed. I think he should have been dispatched a la Vader in ANH and been back for more punishment in AotC.

[Doc Milo]

A lot of the problem, perhaps, was that hype. Remove that hype, and I don't believe a lot of this becomes an issue. Maul, in TPM, was a weapon. Nothing more. Might have been a bit better if Maul died half-way through TPM, we see Palpatine take Dooku as his apprentice, and see the phantom dealings of Dooku with the ordering of the clone army, etc...

[Jedieb]

I would have just preferred if Maul actually SPOKE! Subtract a few lines from Jar Jar and add them to Maul's count and the movie improves. Some of the most memorable OT dialogue came during duels. TPM could have used that. As impressive as Maul was pacing like a tiger in front of Obi-Wan after dispatching Qui-Gon, I would have enjoyed a bit of taunting as well.

Whoever put Dooku on that list was on crack. He's one of the few actors that's been able to pull off SW dialogue with some style. I never considered the idea of Dooku being introduced in TPM. It's an interesting one. Although, how many times would he have had to escape? Once at the end of TPM, and again at the end of AOTC? I like the idea of revolving apprentices. Shows that Anakin/Vader had some staying power.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I agree with you Jedieb, I think Dooku works better in AOTC. I think Lucas should have gave Maul more lines that is the biggest problem with Maul he is way too silent. About Dooku in TPM I don't think he would have been able to escape you see Qui-Gon could have beat him he knew his old master. The reason he lost to Maul was he was so much quicker and faster than him.

[Master Yoghurt]

IGN were idiots to put Doku on such a list. Doku is actually a character who IMPROVES AOTC. Now the other entries on the list, I more or less agree with.


I would have just preferred if Maul actually SPOKE! Subtract a few lines from Jar Jar and add them to Maul's count and the movie improves

Indeed. Its not only a question of dialogue though (even though Jar Jars voice make me squirm in pain more than any other character in motion picture history). If you remove Jar Jar altogether and add more screen time to Maul, the movie would have benefit tremendously, even though he is supposed to be a "side character" a "phantom menace" or whatever your take is on that. A movie needs a villain who is not hidden in the closet. Most of the time in TPM, our heros are running across the galaxy without any sense of danger, and it feels utterly pointless.

Just think about it. Every time Maul shows up, the seat tilt factor increases by about 850%.

It always bugged me how they put all these teasers out with Maul, and then he rarely shows up in the movie. Instead they let Jar Jar become a major figure, and he gets like 6x the screen time. Totally misleading marketing. No wonder people get disappointed.

[JMK]

I think either approach would have worked; giving Maul more lines or having Dooku instead. Maul just felt too much like a prop more than a character. Yes, Doc is right, Maul is a weapon, nothing more....but then again, isn't every Sith just that? A weapon?

Something else TPM suffers from is detachment from the rest of the saga. Sure it takes place 10 years before AotC and lots of things change in between but that doesn't mean that it has to feel completely different. If Dooku were introduced in TPM they could have played out the Qui-Gon / Dooku angle a little more. That would have been interesting. But now that's getting way off topic.

The way I see it, if you look at the Clone Wars cartoon, you had Asajj Ventress, Dooku and Sidious running around. Dooku was the apprentice while Ventress was the weapon. Such is admitted by Sidious. I think if they had set up the Sith the same way in TPM with Maul as the weapon, Dooku the apprentice and Sidious as the master then it would have worked much better and given more continuity to the prequels.

[darth_mcbain]

Originally posted by JMK
but then again, isn't every Sith just that? A weapon?

Not necessarily. Would Maul have been able to pull off the political maneuvering that Dooku did. I doubt Maul could have brought the separatists together into Palpatine's plot. Maul served his place in Ep. I, but he wasn't the right Sith for the job in Ep. II, and Palpatine probably knew that as well.

[JMK]

I guess I should have specified, a Sith apprentice is more or less just a weapon. Dooku's strength as a weapon is his ability to manipulate, but it all pales in comparison to the master manipulator - Sidious.

Dooku was used solely to round up all those who would or could oppose Palpatine once he became Emperor, and Vader was a weapon in that he struck fear in everyone and kept people in line.

[Jedieb]

The way I see it, if you look at the Clone Wars cartoon, you had Asajj Ventress, Dooku and Sidious running around. Dooku was the apprentice while Ventress was the weapon. Such is admitted by Sidious. I think if they had set up the Sith the same way in TPM with Maul as the weapon, Dooku the apprentice and Sidious as the master then it would have worked much better and given more continuity to the prequels.
Wow, I'd never thought of that. I love that idea. Just think, Maul taking on Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan could have been a sort of Sith test, one that he eventually fails. But, the films rely heavily on the "always 2" idea. The EU doesn't rely on it nearly as much.

[JMK]

Yeah, another gaffe by Lucas. He hamstrung himself with that line, as he has with several other lines in the movies.

I'd like to put together a sort of time line here:

TPM Sidious has Maul as an apprentice, 10 years before AotC.
Maul dies at the end of TPM, again, 10 years before AotC.
Master Sifo-Dyas orders a clone army 10 years before AotC, presumably because he was manipulated into it According to the EU, Dooku gets him to do it, then kills him for his troubles. You can take that or leave it.

What was Dooku doing during the events of TPM? Was he already in league with Sidious at that point? Did he hook up with Sidious as soon as he left the Jedi or was he on his own for a while?

If Lucas holds to his own rules, then Dooku could not have been Sidious' apprentice during TPM. By my count, Sidious must have worked EXTREMELY quickly after the events of TPM. He 'hired' Dooku, had him trick another Jedi into ordering an army, then wacked him. Does anyone else raise an eyebrow at that timeline? Does it seem a little too condensed for anyone else's liking? Of course the convenient excuse, again, left up to fans to discuss, is the possibility that Yoda could flat out be wrong about the Sith, and that Sidious, Dooku, and Maul were working together the whole time. That would give Lucas his loophole of saying 'Well there really were more than 2 Sith at one time".

Does that make any sense?

[Anbira Hicchoru]

While there are always two Sith and only two Sith, there are no limits to stooges, lackeys, and people who get manipulated, and that can include Dark Jedi, or even Jedi.

[JMK]

Is that another loophole? An apprentice is not a full fledged Sith?
It can't be, given the language that Yoda uses: "Always 2 there are. No more, no less. A master and an apprentice".

The constant is Sidious - he's one of the Sith.

If Dooku was always there other and Maul was a stooge, then that's fine. BUT Sidious refers to Maul as a Sith, that implies that Dooku is NOT a part of the picture at that point.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Correct, because he wasn't a Sith while Darth Maul was alive.

[JMK]

In that case I go back to my original point, how fast was Sidious able to work after Maul died? How quickly was he able to convert Dooku to a Sith and set into motion the events of AotC?

[Jedieb]

Dooku could have already left the order by TPM though. His disillusionment with the Jedi order could have started pushim toward the Dark Side without any influence from Sidious. Maul dies and Sidious finds a Dooku ripe for the taking.

[Jedi Master Carr]

According to Labyrinth of Evil Dooku left after Qui-Gon died. In the novel he was approached by Sidious some time after he left, I don't they specified how quickly. My guess is Sidious had his eye on Dokku before Maul died. Dokku was a man who wanted to learn about the Sith, according to the EU now, so that worked into Sidious's plans.

[JMK]

If that's the case then Dooku drank Sidious' Kool Aid right quick. AFTER Qui Gon died is when he joined Sidious? Wow, Sidious is one efficient Sith.

[Jedieb]

I read LOE, but to say I'm fuzzy on the timeline would be an understatement. I would think that Qui-Gon's death probably pushed Dooku over the edge. I'm sure his disillusionment with the Jedi was growing even before TPM. In the novelization and in the EU Dooku is portrayed as an arrogant aritstocrat. I think much of that comes across on screen as well. I think Sidious probably always had an eye on Dooku. When he saw Dooku leave the Order and assume his family's estate and title he assumed Dooku was ripe for the picking.

[CMJ]

I'd imagine that even if Maul hadn't died Palpatine woulda been recruiting Dooku. Then he coulda had them square off.

[Doc Milo]

Just one thing to point out:

Obi-Wan says that Sifo-Dyas ordered the Clone army "almost ten years ago." And then says that he was under the impression that "he had died before then." I always assumed, based upon that piece of dialog, that Sifo-Dyas did not actually order the clone army at all. The "almost" ten years ago gives Lucas his loophole, really. It could have been nine years ago. That's "almost" ten. Then Sidous has months, almost a year to replace Maul. And, if you consider that Obi-Wan believes Sifo-Dyas had died before the clone army was ordered, then you can come to the conclusion that Count Dooku, after he was recruited by Sidious, impersonates Sifo-Dyas to the Kaminoans. After all, unless Sifo-Dyas is a Kaminoan (is he?) would they be actually checking credentials? So, Dooku could have been the one to place the actual order for the clone army.

And . . . let's play a little devils advocate. Knowing how Sidous plans every last detail . . . Is it possible that Fett set Zam up in the assassination attempts on Amidala, knowing eventually the Jedi would find her, and then he would kill her using the saber dart? Could he have been under orders to to just that, kill her in the presence of the Jedi, using a Kamino Saber Dart, just to put the Jedi on the trail to Kamino? After all, the Kaminoans were expecting a Jedi presumably almost ten years after the first order...

But that's just an aside to the other issues...

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Originally posted by Doc Milo
And, if you consider that Obi-Wan believes Sifo-Dyas had died before the clone army was ordered, then you can come to the conclusion that Count Dooku, after he was recruited by Sidious, impersonates Sifo-Dyas to the Kaminoans.
I always thought this as well. :)

[JMK]

Originally posted by Doc Milo
Just one thing to point out:

Obi-Wan says that Sifo-Dyas ordered the Clone army "almost ten years ago." And then says that he was under the impression that "he had died before then." I always assumed, based upon that piece of dialog, that Sifo-Dyas did not actually order the clone army at all. The "almost" ten years ago gives Lucas his loophole, really. It could have been nine years ago. That's "almost" ten. Then Sidous has months, almost a year to replace Maul. And, if you consider that Obi-Wan believes Sifo-Dyas had died before the clone army was ordered, then you can come to the conclusion that Count Dooku, after he was recruited by Sidious, impersonates Sifo-Dyas to the Kaminoans. After all, unless Sifo-Dyas is a Kaminoan (is he?) would they be actually checking credentials? So, Dooku could have been the one to place the actual order for the clone army.

And . . . let's play a little devils advocate. Knowing how Sidous plans every last detail . . . Is it possible that Fett set Zam up in the assassination attempts on Amidala, knowing eventually the Jedi would find her, and then he would kill her using the saber dart? Could he have been under orders to to just that, kill her in the presence of the Jedi, using a Kamino Saber Dart, just to put the Jedi on the trail to Kamino? After all, the Kaminoans were expecting a Jedi presumably almost ten years after the first order...

But that's just an aside to the other issues...

I had considered all those things Doc, especially the 'almost' ten years ago part, but again, I feel it's something that's so ambiguous that it should not be left for us fans to mull over for years. That plot line should have been clearer. I just find Lucas' style with regards to these prequels has been a little careless. Using the will of the force, and Palpatine's obsessive attention to detail is just too convenient of a way to explain things that don't make sense. Maybe you're right about using the dart to lead the Jedi to Kamino....but then that implies that Palpatine knows that Obi Wan would strike out at the analysis lab, and have to resort to a diner chef for answers that would eventually lead him to Kamino. Maybe it's just me, but I find that totally reckless.

[Doc Milo]

You can see that as being reckless, sure. But here's another thing to see it as ... if the answers come to quickly and easily, isn't there a risk of arousing suspicion. Palpatine might not know where the information is going to come from, but he doesn't underestimate the Jedi -- he knows they will find the answers they seek from somewhere. Palpatine's weakness is in underestimating those life-forms he deems primitive (the gungans, the ewoks) not in underestimating the Jedi....

[JMK]

That's true, but there is a way that it could have been scripted whereby we know the extent to which Palpatine is pulling the strings, without making it obvious that the Jedi should figure it out in 30 seconds flat. A 2 minute scene between Sidious and Dooku at the beginning of AotC illustrating how they planned to lead the Jedi into a trap would have done wonders to clarify everyone's role. At least that's how I see it.