A question...

[Je'gan Olra'en]

I'm trying to keep this as non-partisan as possible, but I don't really have a frame of reference for this, so I'm wondering - just wondering; I try to avoid power grabs. :)

How, precisely, do we define Lord? And how close to that title are our senior Knights? (By senior I mean Southstar, me, and Sasha if he joins us)

[Vega Van-Derveld]

I'm not sure. Like I've said before, it was a purely TSE thing. Generally there is a huge gap between Master and Lord, so think of somewhere between there so far as time goes... I've been here 5 years and it took, I think, 2 and a half of those to reach Lord. Then again, I made Knight in about six months, soooo...

Hell if I know.

[Lady Vader]

And lets not go by how fast i made it to Master. In the old black & white days, it was a completely DIFFERENT story (i think I made Master in <strike>less than 6 months</strike> a month! :eek ).

Perhaps we should start setting some standards and time-tables for figuring out when rankings and promotions should occur?

[Je'gan Olra'en]

Sounds good to me. It took me 8-9 months to hit Knight. Some people thought that was too quick - I kinda agree. But this should only be a loose standard: some people write more training-wise than others. I've put over 60,000 words into Je'gan's training - just as an example.

Oh, and LV: I was poking through old threads once and you were talking about how Itala made you a Knight in two weeks, then you made LW a Knight in two weeks and were made a Master for it. :P

[Zereth Lancer]

Yes, I agree that a time table of sorts should be made. It took Zereth around two-three years to make knight (I'm not complaining) I don't it should take that long for everyone unless they are especialy bad :D

I'm thinking... 6-12 and a few training missions (1 to 3) months for knight or 8-12 and then another 8-12 (Most likely longer) and perhaps something along the lines of apprenticing a surtain amount of apprentices for lord.

From Lord to Master I have no idea. I've never had a char gain the rank of master and therefore I have no idea how it really works out.

[Je'gan Olra'en]

I like that. How's 9-10 active months and at least two missions for Knight, 12 months and, say, 5-6 Apprentices for Lord sound? And for Apprentices, would it be total number taken, or total number trained to Knight?

Benchmark of sorts (I'm thinking we should compile stuff like this and get an average or standard):

I've taken at least eight Apprentices, two of which have hit Knight.

[Lady Vader]

Oh, and LV: I was poking through old threads once and you were talking about how Itala made you a Knight in two weeks, then you made LW a Knight in two weeks and were made a Master for it. :P

That is very correct. Itala ran a very interesting group then. Also, you have to realise all of this ranking stuff was fairly new to all of us, so we were flying by the seat of our pants. It had it's perks, but I can't say it was always perfect or fair.

[Je'gan Olra'en]

Oh, I'm not complaining about inequality, I'm just laughing at Itala :lol

[AmazonBabe]

Oh, in that case, laugh away. :D

[Je'gan Olra'en]

OK...

KNIGHT: 10 active months, 2+ missions

LORD: 12 more months, active participation in TSO goals, 5 Apprentices taken, at least one of which has been Knighted.

How does that sound?

[Zereth Lancer]

I like it Jeg.

Though I see a non really important flaw. At the moment we have very few masterless apprentices. So any new knights (Like Zereth and soon Jezreal) might only get one to three apprentices in the next three years.

So other then that fact it's great :)

[Je'gan Olra'en]

RotS. Enough said.

But true nonetheless. 4 instead of 5? Maybe 3 at a pinch?

[Lady Vader]

I think maybe that's a bit much, Jegan. At that rate, ppl won't be able to be ranked.

We have to realise we don't get THAT many ppl wanting in. And then there's also the question of whether someone has time to take in that many Apprentices.

Also, we don't know how long we're gonna be here either, what with Ep3 coming out and then that's it.

So.....

How bout this:

APPRENTICE: Hello newbie-person and welcome. We like your application. Here's your master. Now get to work.

KNIGHT: 5 active months, 2+ missions, 1 Apprentice taken

LORD: 8 more active months, active participation in TSO goals, 2 Apprentices taken, at least one of which has been Knighted.

MASTER: 11 more active months, active participation in TSO goals, 3 Apprentices taken, at least one of which has been Knighted.

Eligability for Elder: 3 more active months, active participation in TSO goals, input on decision making, 5 Apprentices taken, at least two of which have been Knighted and one made Lord. (Unless there is a shortage of Elders, than an executive decision can be made among the existing Elders to choose someone to fill the vacancy; Master first choice, Lord second, Knight third.)


(The whole Apprentice-taking thing is not set in stone... it's more of a guideline to help unorphan people that join.)

[Je'gan Olra'en]

OK...seemed a bit little at first, but your point is taken.

OK.

Hm.

*thinks*

That would make me a Lord - and though I don't have a problem with that per se, I'd rather I didn't overshoot the qualifiers by so much. I can see Je'gan as an intro-level Lord, but not higher.

Ah well. Not like it would really matter. Those guidelines seem OK by me. Question: is the 15 more active months for Elder on top of Master?

[AmazonBabe]

Did I type 15? :eek :lol

That's what you get when you're working on your boss' travel for the 15th. >_<


EDIT: Fixed it to be the first intention of 3 months for Elder. Also, be adviced that the rules indicated to reach elder status are more like guidelines. If we need to fil a spot and someone hasn't reached 3 months yet, but we feel he/she would do a good job, then we can slap the title on their forehead.

Also, I amended the length of each rank by 1 month so that in total it would equal to 24 months (an even 2 years). I think 2 years is enough time (and almost excessive) to allow to the rank of Master, IMO.

[Je'gan Olra'en]

I'm really sorry, but two years sounds darn short. Then again, I've only been here...*thinks*...21 months...so I'm not the most experienced person out there. Translation: I wouldn't really know.

[Southstar]

Personally I don't like the irl timetable as it can vary with quantity and quality. I'm in favor of letting it stay the way it is with requiring more training missions and training exercises.

[Je'gan Olra'en]

That works for Knight, but it leaves us short of a standard for Lord.

[Lady Vader]

The reason we're trying to give this a timetable, Southstar, is so that ppl have a guideline to follow. Otherwise we'd have ppl askig us when they'd get to be promoted.

I agree that some may advance faster in quality than others, but then how could we say that's fair to those that are working just as hard, but lack the finese a veteren might have?

[Southstar]

Well I'll go with it if we put the timetable for lord and master in.

[Je'gan Olra'en]

I'll say again: 13 months to Lord seems a bit short. That seems more a high-end goal for Knight, really: I think 10-12 months to Knight is best.

Perhaps we could simply:

a) keep all this hidden;
b) promote by Elders' consensus, an;
c) slap down anyone who whines for promotion.

I like that best, personally: rules always have exceptions.

[Vega Van-Derveld]

I think 2 years is enough time (and almost excessive) to allow to the rank of Master, IMO.

I should have been made Master 2 and a half times by now, then.

Really, I don't think a timetable is a good idea.

Everyone should be treated on an individual basis. Sure, have a MINIMUM amount of time you need, but don't say that they automatically get a promotion then.

If people ASK to be promoted, tell them to STFU.

[AmazonBabe]

Alright, no timetable then. What we have here we can use a a guideline.

It's true some may advance faster than others, so it would be best on an individual basis.

[Je'gan Olra'en]

OK, so: the other purpose of this thread. At one point or another we've agreed that Southstar gets made a Lord whenever it suits him. Whereabouts on our scale, roughly, are our other Knights?

[Vega Van-Derveld]

well.. when were all of the current Knights promoted to Knight?

[Je'gan Olra'en]

Me: March 22nd, 2004
Zereth and Drake: December 16th, 2004
Southstar and Oolana: July 11th, 2003
Jez: um, within the last week
Makoto and Visc: no idea whatsoever.

[Southstar]

I'd say Je'gan has some time before Lord. You've done a lot since March 22nd but its only coming up on a year since you've been knighted.

Zereth and Drake have a buttload of time. If we upgrade everyone too soon we won't have any knights. This is my primary concern. We have small numbers and the numbers of Lords should not be greater than Knights.

I'm going to upgrade when I feel like it :) and Oolana... I haven't seen her around in quite some time. I'd say she's got a lot of writing to do.

The impression I'm under is that Jez writes quickly but I'd say she's got some time to do as well. There's no doubt in my mind that she'll be around long enough to make Lord one day.

Makoto and Visc... I see them on TSO boards like twice a year.

[Vega Van-Derveld]

I'm going to upgrade when I feel like it

Or when your superiors feel like it, even :mneh

[Zereth Lancer]

Yes, I think Buttload is a very good term for how much time I need. I practicaly just receaved the rank of knight. I don't think I'd even consider myself worthy of Lord until I've trained a few Apprentices and slain a few Jedi :D

I've been here for a long time (2 1/2 years) but I think what counts is time as a Knight and doing knightly things that goes to getting the rank of lord.

[Je'gan Olra'en]

SashaKovalev - September 12th, 2002

I'd recommend that when he gets off probation, we make him a Lord.

[Southstar]

Yeah, he's been here a while, but how much time has he actually spent writing? I'm in favor of waiting to see what he has written first before promotion.

[Je'gan Olra'en]

I've gone through some of his old threads. This guy can write - better than me, I think - and does so prolifically. I'm linking to a few of his threads from across his career:

http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19444
http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22528
http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22463

http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22857
http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25303
http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27640
http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26630

[AmazonBabe]

I can vouch 100% for sasha. He CAN write. And we've done some awesome RPs together. Like the time I had him cut off his own hand... yeah, that was fun. :D

I am in agreement that once he's off probation and we feel he has gotten the taint of the Dark Jedi out of him and is ready to embrace fully into the Sith ways, we make him a Lord.

[Southstar]

ok then, sounds good

[Southstar]

Something just struck me, and I'm aware that this might have been in your minds already, but should Force potential and power define the ranks? It was this whole Sasha thing that brough about the thought so I'm going to use him as an example. Though Sasha hasn't been with TSO for much time, he has experienced other darkside orders and has a rather unique vision on what the darkside might be. His knowledge and insight contributes to the reasons backing why he would be a Lord.

Now that might be justification in this case, but could we use it for referance to future cases. Someone with small Force potential yet great insight into what it means to be a darksider could make Lord status. Though a knight would crush him in a fight.

Thoughts anybody?

[Zereth Lancer]

I completely agree with you Southstar. Power and force knowledge alone should not determine Ranking. It is who the person is and how far they have come. Just because someone would break a finger lifting a pencil (Bad example) does not mean they should be low ranked.

There are ways for a sith to prove himself/herself in other then acts of strength and skill (Say a fight against a Jedi).

[Je'gan Olra'en]

Ideally, a true Sith should be both. We can't promote someone like Rivin, who has power but none of this knowledge of what the Dark Side really is - but we can't promote someone who knows the Dark Side intimately and is weak. It looks bad and it makes a weak link in the chain, a link that could eventually let us all down in a critical situation. Don't forget that the word 'Lord' is all about domination...and it takes someone very special to dominate through philosophy.

[Vega Van-Derveld]

I don't think we can go about giving people ranks for difference reasons. One of the key things with ranks is that they sort of define what youre character is capable, so far as Force powers go. A Sith Lord or Master is, by definition, supposed to have some degree of (if not complete) mastery over their chosen area within the Force. To grant someone the rank without them having these abilities would be confusing. Sure, give them some political status if they have a briliant mind, or whatever, but don't make them a Sith Lord.

With regards to Sasha: I think we should probably wait a while on that one. He is definetly deserving, he's an excellent writer, etc but I feel like it would just be better to allow him to be an active member of TSO for a whle before we bump him up.

[AmazonBabe]

Agreed about Sasha.

And I think we should keep the ranking to ability and knowledge. Take Warlock for instance. He's got knowledge and wisdom that can possibly surpass LV, but his abilities aren't quite up to par yet. However, though he holds an Apprentice rank, he has been acknowledged at being wise by being made an Elder.

I guess it's on a character to character basis really.

[Vega Van-Derveld]

Yes, Warlock is a good example. I see 'Sith Elder' more as a political/leadership title rather than an indication of power.

[Je'gan Olra'en]

That's what I'd always thought it was.