Whose Curse Is Worse? Sept. MLB Thread

[Jedieb]

Tonight at 10PM EST on ESPN Sox and Cubs fan engage in the ultimate trial of misery. These 2 long suffering franchises will stage some kind of mock trial to see which one of them has suffered the most. The Cubs have clearly been more pathetic over the years, but the Goat and Bartman pale in comparison to Buckner, Bucky F. Dent, and the mangerial stylings of Grady Little.

And tonight the showdown begins. My ageless Cuban wonder takes the mound with an 8-0 record one mission, tease and ultimately destroy the Sox. DESTROY I SAY! >D

[JMK]

At this point, the misery and suffering of both groups is huge and the difference between 1909 and 1918 is negligible. I find that Sox fans are a sadder lot than Cubs fans because at least the Cubs fans can get hammered enough each and every night to enjoy the game. Sox fans work themselves in to such a frenzy every night it's amazing that they all haven't died of cardiac arrest or hanging themselves. Of course, it's made worse by the fact that their bitter rivals have enjoyed more success than any other pro sports franchise while they continue to not know what winning feels like. Cubs fans can probably take some solace in knowing that even though they haven't won, none of their bitter rivals have enjoyed the dynastic success the Spankees have.

[Charley]

I object to this. As a Sox fan I can honestly say we get plenty drunk when we lose. We just tend to be angry drunks and go on and on about lynching us a Yankee.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I think the Cubs fans have it worst. The Sox have had a lot of winning teams. The cubs have had more losing teams than any franchise maybe except the Indians. Man people forget the poor White Sox. Their streak is longer than the Red Sox 1916 last time they won. Not sure what their curse is, maybe the curse of Shoeless Joe.

[CMJ]

Is worse to get your heart broken in May...or to get your heart broken every September?

Sure I'm generalizing, but that's the usual form. The Sox blow it at the end and the Cubs never were in the race to begin with. As much as being so close..yet so far...is...at least we win.

Cubs fandom is worse I gotta say.

And I agree with Carr...the White Sox get shafted in the woe is me race.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah I guess its because they have no curse, my guess. I guess there is the whole black sox thing, but so far that has never been used as a curse by anybody.

[Jedieb]

The Cubs do have their share of Yankee style misery. The Cards have won more WS than any other NL team. Ideally, I'd like to see the Cubs win the WC and face off against St. Louis in the playoffs. The same for the Yankees and Sox. This is the beauty of the Wild Card. Pennant races are great, but I'd rather have last year's 7 game classic than a September race for the division title. We're still getting one of those tonight so the WC hasn't totally robbed us of that.


Is worse to get your heart broken in May...or to get your heart broken every September?
Man, I'd rather lose it in May. Then you just resign yourself to your misery. Plus, the Cubs still enjoy games at Wrigley throughout the year. If you're going to stink it up year after year, is there a better place to enjoy a game than Wrigley? The Sox have left their fans staggering from bars in the dead of night wondering how they could come within a handful of outs of;
a) A pennant
b) A trip to the WS
c) A WS title

And they've done some of these MORE THAN ONCE!


And I agree with Carr...the White Sox get shafted in the woe is me race.
Frankly, I think they get the shaft because they're BORING. And after those disastrous shorts they wore in '76 they should have been shipped off to Japan.

Now we're only a few minutes away from another showdown. This weekend and next I'll get to savor yet another clam chowder style meltdown. Ahh the sweetness....... :evil

[Jedieb]

Classic Sox/Yankees moment in the 1st inning. Manny hits a shot, the umps let him round the bases only to call the ball foul. Ah, sweet misery. :evil

[Jedi Master Carr]

1-0 Boston after a Damon home run. But now it's a rain delay. Can they get the game in? And tomorrow there is going to be more rain. This is going to be an issue, it be funny if they have to play a double header in Boston for one of them :p

[jjwr]

Classic Sox/Yankees moment in the 1st inning. Manny hits a shot, the umps let him round the bases only to call the ball foul. Ah, sweet misery.

The Ump probably needed the extra time to verify his Yankee check was in his account before making the call :)

[General Tohmahawk]

Could someone explain what this thread is about to me? I feel like I'm a female reading one of my motor racing or car threads. I just dont understand a word!

[CMJ]

It's baseball man...sorry you wouldn't understand. ;)

Seriously...two of the most devoted fanbases, those who follow the Red Sox and Cubs, think their teams as "cursed". Neither has won the title in years and years. Eb, follows the mighty Yankees who are the Evil Empire and win, on average, a title every four seasons.

That's the Cliffs Notes version.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by CMJ
It's baseball man...sorry you wouldn't understand. ;)

Seriously...two of the most devoted fanbases, those who follow the Red Sox and Cubs, think their teams as "cursed". Neither has won the title in years and years. Eb, follows the mighty Yankees who are the Evil Empire and win, on average, a title every four seasons.

That's the Cliffs Notes version.




What he said, with a few tidbits about the "curses"...

- The Chicago Cubs last won the World Series in 1908. The last time they played in a World Series was 1945. The "curse" that follows this team is known as "The Curse of the Billy Goat". Essentially, back in the day, a fan wanted to bring his pet goat into the stadium with him, but management refused. So, he supposedly cursed the team, saying that the would never again win a championship. In the years since then, while the Cubs have made it into the league playoffs on occasion, they always seem to have something go wrong in a critical situation, and then everything snowball for them and falls apart (the latest example occured last season with the now infamous "Bartman" foul-ball incident).

- The Boston Red Sox last won the World Series in 1918. They have played in several World Series since that time (last time was 1986), but have lost each time. The "curse" that follows the Red Sox is known as "The Curse of the Bambino." Waaaaay back in the day, the Red Sox, in need of money, sold their best player to the New York Yankees. This player was Babe Ruth, perhaps the best player in baseball history. Ruth went on to lead the Yankees (whom are the Red Sox bitter rivals) to numerous World Series titles and helped to found the "Yankee Dynasty". Since Ruth started the Yankees winning ways, they have won the World Series 26 times, far more than any other team. The Red Sox, like the Cubs, have suffered numerous failures in critical situations as well, such as "Bucky F---ing Dent" and "Buckner though the legs," as well as last season's heartbreak at the hands of the Yankees with Aaron Boone's extra-inning homerun to put the Yankees in the Series again, and send the Sox home, yet again.


Hope that helps.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That was great Fig :) Also Red Sox win 3-2. Beat Rivera of all people. They have his number or something (beat him twice this year). Only 2.5 back now.

[jjwr]

I noticed Jedieb wasn't quick to rush back and post about the 9th inning like he did the 1st :)

[Master Yoghurt]

the latest example occured last season with the now infamous "Bartman" foul-ball incident

Oooh, wasn't that when someone on the tribune caught the ball, and the cubs lost the game because of that, and he became like the most hated person in Chicago or something, lol

[CMJ]

Well Figrin...I didn't want to overload the poor guy with info. I figured baby steps were the way to go. ;)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Mark, for reference see threads

<a href=http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11697&highlight=baseball+AND+curse>The Curse Continues?</a>
<a href=http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32380&highlight=baseball+AND+curse>MLB 2003 Playoffs</a>

...Heck, just do a search for baseball AND curse and you'll find the same threads. :p

[Master Yoghurt]

Thanks for the links! I am still wondering what happened to that fan btw, did Al Capone rise from the dead to hunt him down or what? :p

I read about their curse before, but dont mind a single bit reading it again, I find the improbable circumstances and the superstition amusing. I particulary like the story of the goat (thats a classic!), and really enjoy the story about how Red Sox sold their best player as well. I mean, I heard of many disasterous sales in sports before, but man that gotta be the worst.

[jjwr]

Ugly game so far for the Sox, Lowe looked horrible! The way he was pitching you would almost think he was a Yankee's pitcher :)

Tons of errors too, just gonna be one of those games I think, nothings going right.

[Ryan Pode]

Its 13-0 Yanks in the bottom of the 6th.

[jjwr]

Both games of this series the home plate ump has been calling horrible strikes on both teams. I thought a new system had been put in place that tried to help regulate these things?

[Jedieb]

I noticed Jedieb wasn't quick to rush back and post about the 9th inning like he did the 1st
And you'll notice I wasn't posting after the 1st or 2nd inning today when they Yanks were up by 5, then 9 to NADA! ;)

The rain delay sent me off to bed and when the game did resume I watched it in bed. I was nowhere near a computer to share my misery. I was out all morning and only got to see the last few innings of today's game from a Firestone lobby. No time to gloat or celebrate. The Sox, despite today's shelling, should feel great. They're guaranteed to come out of Yankee stadium with at least 1 win. Even more important, they beat Rivera for the second time this season. That's going to mean something when and if they face off in the post season, or even next weekend in Boston. It's not going to gaurantee anything, but it has to give the Sox some confidence to know they can come back against the best the Yankees have to throw at them.

I don't know about today, but the calls last night were ridiculous. Balls that were half a foot off the plate were being called strikes. I don't care that the ump was being consistent, he was being consistently craptacular.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah the umpire was a moron, they need to get him out of their for the next game. Honetsly, I like the Sox chances for 2 out of three. I never thought a sweep was possible in Yankee stadium. I thought they lose Friday night. I think Pedro will be pumped tomorrow.

[jjwr]

Umps suck, way too subjective me thinks, you would think they could have a system in place that would adjust itself to the player and have a defined strike zone with some sort of sensors. So if the ball goes over the plate in the zone its a strike, if not its a ball.

Anywho, I also felt a Sweep was unlikely, and to be honest while they could come back from the best the Yankee's had to offer the Sox really haven't offered up their best yet this series.

The offense is still off, they had trouble in the seattle series and are having it again in this series, they're making it look like the Yankee's don't have pitching problems :)

Its still unlikly for them to win the Division, even before this series, both are in the playoffs though.

As the announcer said either last night or today theres nothing to guarantee these two will even meet in the playoffs, both the Twins and the A's/Angels are good and neither 1st round series will be a gimme.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Heck if the Sox win the wild card, they might get the twins and the A's the Yankees. With the way the sox have beat up the A's, the A's would take the yankees.

[Jedieb]

I was looking at some stats and the Sox's offense really drops off on the road. Their record at Fenway this season is great, but they're barely over .500 on the road I think. I think the road will keep them from overtaking the Yankees these last few weeks. Each team has around 14 games to go. After the next series at Fenway the Yanks will have 6 games to go and Boston 7. (This is off the top of my head, I could be off a game or 2). It's a shame they don't finish off the season against each other. :(

[Jedieb]

There's no sport in which officials have a bigger impact than baseball and I CAN'T STAND IT! Refs in the NBA can T players up and have them thrown out of games. In football refs constantly call penalties and one big call can have a huge impact on a game. NHL refs only step in when a fight has run its course and both guys are exhausted. But MLB umps impose their will on baseball to a degree those other officials could only dream of. Each ump has his own friggin' strike zone. Look at him funny, and he's likely to toss your butt out of the game. Some of these guys act as if fans buy tickets to see their grossly overweight carcasses call the game. MLB should tell umps to call a uniform strike zone, review their calls at the end of each season. If you've spent the better part of the year inventing your own strike zone then you're FIRED! And not a 'Donald Trump I love to hear myself talk' kind of fired. A 'You're never even going to work in the minors kind of fired'!

[Jedieb]

Let's pretend we're at Yankee Stadium:
"PEDRO..... PDERO.... PEDRO...."
:evil

[jjwr]

Pedro never does well at Yankee Stadium, something always happens :)

If the Sox offense doesn't realize they need to hit on occasion they're gonna be a quick playoff exit.

[Jedieb]

It's the road. At home, Manny, Ortiz, and the rest of the line up seem to beat up on people. They are going to have to get that taken care of in the playoffs though. They can't depend on Fenway to take them deep into the playoffs.

[jjwr]

Even at home they're not hitting well right now and they are running out to time to fix it.

3.5! Maybe the Sox can get lucky and shave off another game tonight and head into the weekend at 2.5....that would be sweet!

I was down in Boston for work on Tues/Wenesday and we went to the Tuesday night game, it was awesome! I had never been to a game before and it was great.

The atmosphere was awesome and schilling was incredible, course Belhorn winning it in the bottom of the 9th was sweet.

[JMK]

Lucky S.O.B! I would love to get down there to catch a game.

The Expos have a meeting today at 2:45 and it's widely believed that they will be told that they are leaving officially at the end of this season. :cry

[jjwr]

I'm really suprised its taking them this long to make that call.

Yeah it was sweet, I wouldn't have gone if we weren't going to be down there anyways for work, just got lucky.

[Jedieb]

The big series is at Fenway this weekend. The Yanks are beating up the Devil Rays right now and Boston finishes their series against the Orioles tonight. They'll head into the weekend either 3.5, or 4.5 apart. I think the Yankees can clinch at least the AL Wild Card with a win today. The AL East crown is still on the line which should make this weekend a blast to watch. Inevitably heartbreaking for the Sox, but still fun to watch. :evil

[Jedi Master Carr]

If the Sox sweep watch out the Yankees get the Twins next, could be a ALDS preview. Also what about the Rangers?? The way they are playing they might catch the A's heck I wouldnt' want to play them first as hot as they are right now.

[Jedieb]

The A's are falling apart. They've even let the Angels back into the race. To be honest though, I'm not scared of any AL West team. Only the Sox scare me.

Meanwhile, the Yankees magic number is down to 7, 6 if the Sox lose tonight.

[Jedi Master Carr]

What about the Dodgers? They are falling bad they way they are playing they might not even make the playoffs.

[Jedieb]

Early lead by the Yanks, but both Pedro and Moose are pitching well. The Sox got hosed by the umps on A-Rod's steal of 3rd base. The Sox really need a sweep. Even if the Yankees come out of Fenway with just 1 win, that's probably all they need to lock up the AL East.

[Jedieb]

8th inning, a HR, then a ground rule double, but yet they kept Pedro in the game. Good gawd Sox fans, how do you guys keep going? Was anyone honestly surprised that Sierra drove in Bernie Williams? My gawd, yet another brilliant managerial decision for the Yankees by a Boston manager. The game's not over, the Sox still have plenty of fight left in them, but how many times do things like this have to happen?!

[jjwr]

Yeah Pedro should have been pulled earlier, this game really doesn't mean that much, Sox are in the Playoffs, this game/series is really more a morale boost than anything else.

A few really bad calls at 3rd Base, so is the Ump's payment factored into the 180Million payroll or is that counted seperate? :)

[Jedieb]

The calls were just atrocious. But let's not act like that $125M Boston payroll is something to be pitied. ;)


"What can I say -- just tip my hat and call the Yankees my daddy,"
A Pedro quote that shall live in infamy. :evil

[jjwr]

A guy at work made that comment about the Red Sox, yeah they have a big payroll but the difference between them and the Yankee's is huge. Imaging how good the Sox would be if they added on say Beltran & Randy Johnson and just ignored the $$$.

I was razzing the local Yankee fan at work, he didn't like when I asked him why it took till the last week of the season for a team with a 180 Million Payroll to clinch their division. He didn't have a reply.

Did Pedro actually say that?

[Jedieb]

Yes he did, maybe I should give that quote to your friend at work? ;)

Brown is going to start tomorrow. It'll be good for him to get a couple of starts before the playoffs. I'd rather him get shelled and lose the rust tomorrow than in the playoffs.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I can't see how a guy with a broken arm can pitch honestly. I think he will get killed to tell you the truth. Brown is also not that good any more he has lost a lot on his velocity more than even Pedro has. Well the Sox won tonight so we can say that they are almost guarenteed the wild card. With a 6 game lead with 8 to go it will be tough to blow it. I think their magic number is three.

[jjwr]

Sox are definetly in, can't see them missing it now.

Good win for them tonight, like I said earlier this series is pretty meaningless but for the Sox they needed to open up finally and they did.

[JMK]

And now we know why the Cubs haven't won a world series in nearly 100 years: Up 3-0 with 2 outs in the 9th, they give up a 3 run shot and lose to the Mets in extras. Lord help them.

[Jedieb]

That was a tough loss for the Cubs, but it did come at the end of a 5 game winning streak. The NL Wild Card is going to come down the wire. The Cubs have the easier schedule, but they do have to finish up against the Braves I believe. Atlanta has nothing to play for, but they're not going to lay down.

The Yankees magic number is 4, it goes down to 2 if they win this afternoon. By avoiding the sweep the Sox have pretty much locked up the AL Wild Card.

[Jedieb]

Both series were mirror images of each other. The road team came from behind to win the first game and then the home team spent the weekend pounding the road team into submission. Boston's WC magic number is 2 while the Yanks are still at 4 games for the East. They've already clinched a playoff spot.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah I agree with that Jedieb. I don't think the Sox can win the division now, unless the Twins sweep the Yankees, which is unlikely (they might take 2 out of three from them, but I don't see a sweep happening). Both will be in the playoffs the question is who they will get? I guess I should want Boston to play Oakland since they beat them up all year. I think they could take Minnesota or Anaheim in a 5 game series though.

[Jedieb]

The NL Wild Card race is going to be the one to watch this last week. I think the Cubs have the edge because of their schedule.

NL WC Stadings
Chicago Cubs 87 68 -
San Francisco 87 69 .5
Houston 86 70 1.5
San Diego 85 71 2.5

Cubs
4 games at HOME with Cinn.
3 games at HOME with Atlanta

Giants
3 games AT SD
3 games AT the division leading Dodgers (2.5 game lead)

Houston
3 games at HOME with St. Louis
3 games at HOME with Colorado

San Diego
3 games at HOME with the Giants
3 games at Arizona

The Giants look like they're screwed. They have to play 2 playoff caliber teams on the road. Losing 2 out of 3 to L.A. this weekend really hurt their chances.

I think Houston is out of luck because they have to go up against the Cardinals. Clemens will start the 3rd game of that series, but they may already be down 2 games to the Cards by then. They get to finish up with the hapless Rockies and could easily end the season with a sweep.

San Diego could really put a hurt on the Giants and effectively knock them out of the race. By the end of that series either the Padres or Giants will be out of the race. After that series they have the easy pickings that are the D-Backs and could easily sweep them because it doesn't look like Randy will be pitching in that last series.

The Cubs have 7 games at Wrigley. C'mon, how can they screw this up?! Yeah, they have to face the NL East champs, but they have 4 games against the Reds. They could easily win 3 or outright sweep them while the Padres and Giants feast on each other. The WC is their's for the taking. Not even Bartman could stop them now! :crack

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah the Cubs should get the Wild Card. They need to beat the Reds though or forget it.

[jjwr]

The NL race is wicked, this is gonna be a fun week to see how that turns out.

As for the AL, its pretty much down to the race for the AL West, not terribly exciting.

The Sox are pretty much out of the division race, yeah its possible but not likely. They needed a sweep this weekend and didn't get it.

The good thing is the Sox have 1 extra game so all they need to do is make up 2 games and win their final game once the Yankee's are done and they tie, which would be fun :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah the AL West race does look rather boring, Oakland should win but who knows.

[jjwr]

Whoops, thought the lead was down to 2.5 and not 3.5

So its pretty much over, even at 2.5 would have been a stretch.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think the Dodgers are in, I think they will take care of the Giants at home. This in turn will help the Cubs giving them the wild card. The AL West is up for grabs. I don't think Texas will win. Their pitching isn't good enough, IMO. It's between Anaheim and Oakland, I feel. And it will come down to that last series. The winner of that series will probably win the division.

[Jedieb]

Mulder has been getting shelled lately. I'm telling you, if the A's come win it they'll be nothing but first round fodder, again.

[Jedi Master Carr]

The Angels might end up catching them. Now they could be dangerous. They have a great offense and a great bullpen. Not sure about their rotation though.

[Jedi Master Carr]

And the Red Sox clinched :) They are at lead the wild card team again. First time in ages they have been in the playoffs two straight years (the last time you have to go back to the early 1900's). Now have to wait to see who they get :)

Edit I was wrong I forgot they made the playoffs two straight years back in 98-99 before that it went into the early 1900's, whoops.

[JMK]

Ugh, 2 games left for my Expos in Montreal. :(

http://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article.jsp;jsessionid=PJEDKHKFGEJM?content=200409 27_220614_3340

Where did it all go wrong?


Many blame the team's demise on the players' strike in 1994 that wiped out Montreal's best chance to reach the World Series.

MONTREAL (CP) -- To watch the Montreal Expos fade away, it is hard to imagine they were once the toast of the city and a point of pride for all of Canada.

When they became Canada's first Major League Baseball club in 1969, with Rusty (Le Grand Orange) Staub as their star outfielder, or when a supremely gifted young team fell to the Los Angeles Dodgers in the National League Championship Series in 1981, the Expos were hot.

But memories may be all that is left as baseball negotiates the transfer of the once-thriving franchise to Washington, D.C., for 2005 -- likely making this week's three-game series against the Florida Marlins the last big-league ball to be played in Montreal.

Also: Expos to learn fate by Thursday? | Sparse crowd watches loss

It is the third straight year the Expos have gone into their last homestand not knowing if they will be back, so the smattering of fans who still care are holding onto their hopes for at least one more "final" season.

But if the end comes, it will be an ignoble finish for a team once dubbed Nos Amours (our beloved ones) and which used to draw more than two million fans a year to cavernous Olympic Stadium.

The Expos were killed by the lack of a deep-pocketed owner after Charles Bronfman sold the club in 1991, a weak Canadian dollar in an era of skyrocketing player salaries, and a players strike in 1994 that wiped out their best chance to reach the World Series.

That year, future Cy Young Award winner Pedro Martinez was the young newcomer on a pitching staff that included Ken Hill, Jeff Fassero and the brilliant bullpen duo of John Wetteland and Mel Rojas -- backed by a formidable attack sparked by outfielders Marquis Grissom, Larry Walker and Moises Alou.

When the strike began on Aug. 11, 1994, the Expos were 74-40, the best record in baseball.

"The strike came and broke everything apart," Martinez said recently. "We weren't expecting that to happen, but we had to go on and forget about it.

"It was really sad to see our team go from first place to just another team on the path."

A succession of "fire sales" -- dumping star players due for huge pay raises -- after the strike and a failed bid for a new downtown ball park caused attendance to plummet -- falling below the one million level in 1998 and never really recovering.

It was not how it was supposed to turn out when it all started in giddy anticipation in 1967, when city councillor Gerry Snyder presented a bid for an expansion franchise to National League owners.

The next year, after Bronfman saved the bid by moving in as the lead owner, Montreal and San Diego were granted teams. The expansion fee was $10 million US and they became the first non-U.S. club in the majors.

The big day finally came on April 8, 1969, when the Expos, named for the city's hugely successful world's fair called Expo '67, won their inaugural game 11-10 against the Mets in New York.

The love affair really began with their home opener at the patched-together stadium at Jarry Park on April 14, an 8-7 win over the St. Louis Cardinals before a sellout crowd of 29,184.

Mack Jones, a Cincinnati Reds castoff, pounded a home run and the left-field bleachers became known as Jonesville. Staub and third baseman Jose (Coco) Laboy became instant heroes, even if the new club endured a 20-game losing streak.

Only 10 games into their first season, Bill Stoneman, who would later become a team executive, pitched the first of two career no-hitters with Montreal.

In 1977, the year the Toronto Blue Jays became Canada's second big-league team, the Expos moved into Olympic Stadium in time for the emergence of their first generation of home-grown stars, like outfielders Ellis Valentine and Andre Dawson, pitcher Steve Rogers and catcher Gary Carter. Speedy Tim Raines followed a few years later.

In those days, the Expos were buyers of top free agents, such as Dave Cash in 1977, pitcher Ross Grimsley (still their only 20-game winner) in 1978 and Woody Fryman in 1983.

The team won 95 games in 1979 -- still a club record -- and drew 2.1 million fans, but fell two games short of Pittsburgh for the division title.

Heartbreak came in 1981, when Montreal won the second half of a strike-interrupted season and beat Philadelphia in a playoff to take the division.

The NL series against the Dodgers came down to a decisive fifth game and Expos fans moaned as Rogers, called in from the bullpen in desperation, gave up a series-winning home run to Rick Monday. The day is still called Blue Monday and remains the closest the Expos ever got to a World Series. .

The beginning of the end came in 1991 when Bronfman, concerned at runaway player salaries, sold the club to a consortium of local investors led by team president Claude Brochu.

That same season, another moment of magic.

"El Presidente is El Perfecto!," broadcaster Dave Van Horne screamed after Dennis Martinez pitched the team's only perfect game against Los Angeles.

But an omen came in early September when a huge slab of concrete fell off the side of Olympic Stadium, forcing the team to play the final month on the road. A small number of fans swore they'd never set foot in the building again.

It came just as the next generation of Expos stars was emerging, led by Walker, the multi-skilled outfielder from Maple Ridge, B.C.

Early in the 1992 season, manager Tom Runnells was replaced by Felipe Alou, the former star outfielder from the Dominican Republic who had managed in the Expos' minor-league system for years.

Everything fell into place. They won 87 games in 1992 and 94 games the following year. By 1994, they were widely seen as the best team in baseball.

Then came the strike.

"That was the start of the end," said Ken Singleton, an Expos outfielder from their Jarry Park days who was their radio analyst at the time. "Until that point, it wasn't great because their revenue streams didn't allow them to keep players, but in 1994, they had a great team.

"I think the fans really felt that the rug had been pulled out from under them and they didn't go back after that."

Play resumed late the following spring with no mechanisms in place to halt the salary spiral. Brochu, a hard-liner in the labour dispute, ordered a payroll cut and Grissom, Hill and Wetteland were traded, while Walker was allowed to go as a free agent.

Alou and a succession of general managers worked wonders to keep the team competitive. They won 88 games in 1996 and were in a playoff race.

But a declining dollar and baseball's lowest local broadcast revenues did not allow them to keep their stars. After winning the NL Cy Young in 1997, when he struck out 305 batters and posted a 1.90 ERA, it was Pedro Martinez's time to go -- shipped to the Boston Red Sox for three prospects.

Martinez left in tears and another wave of fans deserted the club.

"I would have taken $25 million less to stay but even with that, they couldn't afford me," he said. "It was just sad."

The last hope was to build one of the new downtown stadiums that had helped save other clubs in baseball. Brochu mounted a campaign but could not find enough backers.

Under heat for his management, Brochu agreed to sell his interest in the team to New York art dealer Jeffrey Loria, who was announced as the new controlling partner on Dec. 9, 1999.

Loria immediately signed free agents like Graeme Lloyd and Hidecki Irabu and continued angling for a new stadium. A prime downtown site was available and the Quebec government agreed to pay interest on a $100-million Cdn loan to help the financing.

But Loria scrapped the stadium plan and seemed to lose interest in Montreal after alienating local sponsors and broadcasters. In his first year as owner, the team did not have an English TV deal and games were available only on the Internet.

In 2002, Loria sold the team to the other 29 major league clubs and bought the Florida Marlins in a plan that would have seen the Expos and the Minnesota Twins "contracted" out of existence.

A new agreement with the players that year removed the contraction threat, but minority owners are still in court contesting Loria's sale and trying to block the team from being moved from Montreal.

Condos are now being built on the proposed downtown stadium site where fans once hoped that Martinez and Vladimir Guerrero, probably the team's best player ever, were to bring the good times back to Montreal.

Guerrero signed as a free agent with Anaheim after last season. Even many of the die-hards had to give up then.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That is sad Kyle. It's unfornuate that had to happen. I am sorry you have to lose your team.

[darth_mcbain]

Dude - that really sucks. Honestly, the Expos were never my favorite team, nor did I like their stadium all that much, but I can't imagine the league without them there - they were a fixture in Montreal - I can't imagine them anywhere else... I'm Sorry to hear that JMK...

[Jedi Master Carr]

It will be interesting to see how they do in Washington. Washington has had a great history with baseball teams. They moved teams out of their like twice. Also are they going to keep the last name? The Washington Expos just don't fit, IMO.

[JMK]

Well I see Washington as the 'best of the worst'. I mean they've already lost a ball team twice, I don't know what makes MLB think it will work this time in the long term. I wish MLB would have given the same support they gave to the other teams instead of trying to rip it away.

Just to sum up why the fans never show up and never care in large numbers, we're calling tomorrow's game "The 5th Annual Last Game Ever".

[Jedieb]

Sorry about your boys JMK. I'll be sure to take good care of them. ;)

Actually, because they're going to DC and not N. Virginia I probably won't catch too many games. I don't know where the Redskins new stadium is, but it's got to be at least 4 hrs away. :(

Chicago Cubs 88 68 -
San Francisco 87 69 1
Houston 87 70 1.5
San Diego 85 71 3

SD and the Giants square off tonight. The Giants have Schmidt on the mound and they really need this one. The Astros could leap frog right past them tonight. The Astros have the Cards again tonight. Last night was a big win for them. If they win tonight they can close out that series Clemens. The Cubs go against the hapless Reds again tonight.

The Yankees are rained out and will play a double header on Wed. Boston can close to 2.5 with another win against Tampa tonight.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yep Boston is 2.5 out. They would need the Twins to sweep the doubleheader tomorrow. If they are a game out going into Thursday watch out. The Sox have the tie breaker they just have to be tied by Sunday night to win. The Cubs lost, the Astros won and the Giants are winning. The NL wild card is going to come down to the final weekend. With the way the Astros are playing it might be them. The Angels won again, basically putting the death nail in the Rangers coffin. The A's are losing. The Angels might be tied with them after tonight.

[JMK]

As much as I can't stand Selig, he's going to go into the hall of fame just because of the addition of the wild card spots. Man are they close, and there have been extremely intense races in the past several seasons. Great addition to the game...but Selig still sucks.

It's only 9am here and it feels like a giant funeral here today. I wonder what the game will be like tonight, and if there will be security issues. I'll be there first hand, so I guess I'll know exactly what's happening.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I feel bad for you Kyle, let me know how it goes tonight. Going to take pics? Caple had a great article on ESPN about it saying how MLB messed up. They could have bought a stadium for the Expos in Montreal for the price they are paying to move them to Washington and between how much it cost to run them the last few years.

[JMK]

I will be taking pictures tonight, but I've already taken about 100 this summer, some of which I think I sent you by email already.

If I get any more cool ones I'll be sure to send them to you.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Ok thats cool :)

[JMK]

I think this is the article you were talking about?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=caple_jim&page=caple_jim

It's a little short, but it's pretty damn accurate. Drives me right around the bend....

[Jedieb]

Man the Cubs are sad. They had everything laid out for them. The easiest schedule, the most games at home and in true Cubs fashion they fall apart. They've lost 4 out of 5. In two of those games they had 9th inning leads evaporate. Today was yet another late inning collapse. Now the Cubs have to wait and see what the Astros (.5 back) and the Giants (tied with Chicago) do tonight. I guess they're trying hard to add yet another chapter to their lovable loser history.

The Yanks have come back against the Twins in the first game of their double header and have a 2-run lead going into the bottom of the 8th at Yankee Stadium. The second game will be on ESPN tonight. If they sweep their magic number will be down to 2, 1 if Boston loses tonight.

[Jedieb]

The magic number is now 1! Ah, how we like to tease the Sox. :evil

Pedro got hammered again tonight. If I were the Sox I'd try to get him as much rest as possible before that first post season start. I'd even put him as my #2 behind Schilling. At this stage of his career I don't think Pedro would mind being #2 in the playoff rotation. Although who knows what Francona will do.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Schilling will be the #2 that is clear. I think Boston can take Minnesota all they can do is beat up the little teams :p If I was New York I be worried about Anaheim I think they are going to win the west and will get New York. The Angles beat the Yankees last time in the first round.

[Jedieb]

Not starting the rotation with Schilling is just madness. Screw sentimentality, you have got to go with your best starter and that's clearly Schilling. And if at any point this post season Pedro is allowed to come out for an 8th or 9th inning then Francona should be dragged back into the clubhouse and beaten into submission. Really, you guys make it too easy for us sometimes. ;)

[Jedieb]

Wow, this is just hysterical. Evil, but hysterical.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/040929

Some highlights for those who don't want to read all of Pedro's shocking revelation:



"Looking back now, I suppose there were clues to my father's identity (the Yankees) I should have recognized if only I had opened my eyes wide enough to examine them closely. But so much of life is a deception, is it not? Even now, many Red Sox fans think we are going to win the World Series.

"I once caught my mother (The Dodgers) opening a worn shoebox and pulling out faded black and white photos of her when she was a girl in Brooklyn. Then she looked at a photograph of her as a young woman smiling with a man in pinstripes. When she looked at it, she made a strange sound and I could not tell whether she was laughing or crying -- it was similar to the sound Red Sox fans make at the beginning of each October. I asked who the man in the picture was, and she quickly put the photos away. She said only that he was a rich man she once knew in New York, and that I should not sneak up on her anymore and should instead go outside and practice knocking down 72-year-old men with Ramon.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah I read that I think he was just being funny, not sure if he should be saying stuff like this now. You know what would be funny though watch it be the Angles and Twins in the ALCS :p

[JMK]

So last night's funeral went off without a hitch. The game was almost cancelled because of morons who insist on throwing junk on the field. That would have caused a riot guaranteed.

The game was secondary to what was actually happening though. Once the game was over, the tears were out in full force. Some of the Expos had a few words to say and then it was over.

The signs that fans were carrying around were a mix of "thanks for the memories" "save our Expos" and a TON of others that I can't put here because of this is a family-friendly place, but there were lots of vulgarities thrown the way of Jeff Loria, David Samson, former Expos majority owner Claude Brochu and especially Bud Selig.

All in all it was a peaceful goodbye for the 31,395 fans that showed up. At least we surpassed the over/under of 30,000 put forth by Dan Patrick on his show yesterday, and they were all so damn sure that it would be WAY under.

I considered leaving my glove at home for this one, but good thing I decided to because I finally got that elusive foul ball! :)

We can only pray for a miracle now, and if that fails, hope that once Selig is out we can make way for a new franchise here.

[JMK]

This story is even better than yesterday's by Jim Caple.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1891931

[Jedieb]

A foul boul at the final Expos game?! Put it up on ebay now!!!! ;)

At least you got yourself a great keepsake. I'd put that baby in some kind of display with the date and something noting it was the final home game for the Expos.

The Cubs and Giants both lost and the steamrolling Astros finished their impressive sweep of the Cards. Houston is off tonight I believe and both the Giants and Cubs are 1 game behind in the win collumn. It's possible that all 3 teams could end up tied for the WC spot. Here's the tiebreaker info from ESPN:



If the Giants, Cubs and Astros finish in a threeway tie, they would be seeded 1-2-3 based on head-to-head play. So that would make the Giants the No. 1 seed. It would be their choice whether to play one game or two. If they choose to play once:

# Cubs (No. 2 seed) play Astros (No. 3) -- in Chicago.
# The winner hosts the Giants the next day.

If the Giants choose to play two games (unlikely):

# They play the Astros in San Francisco.
# If they win, they play the Cubs the next day in San Francisco.
# If they lose, the Astros and Cubs play in Houston.

Two-way ties:
# If the Giants finish in a two-way tie with anybody, the game will be played in San Francisco.
# If the Cubs and Astros tie for the wild card, they would play in Houston.

If the Giants, Dodgers, Cubs and Astros finish with the same record, the Giants and Dodgers will play for the West. The loser then goes into the same three-way tiebreaker format to decide the wild card.

[Jedieb]

How sad are the Cubs? They have a four game series against the lowly Reds at Wrigley and they lose 3 out of 4, 2 of them in extra innings. That goat must have been working his magic today. Prior pitched 9 innings and struck out 16. Sammy hit a HR. Hard for the Cubbies to blow this one, but they did. They lost 2-1 in 12 innings. Poor bastards.

[Jedi Master Carr]

What a mess Jedieb, it is also a mess in the AL West where Oakland and Anaheim are both tied. It's going to be a wild final weekend that is for sure. And Kyle just read your report sounds very sad :( At least you got a souvenier from it.

[Ryan Pode]

Ugh. I don't want a baseball team in Washington. It's bad enough that the Skins exist. Washingtonians will probably be as zealous about the baseball team as they are the football team. :mad

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well not necessarly. The Redskins have existed for years and are one of the oldest franchises in the NFL. This team is no besides Washingtonians never cared that much about the Senators.

[Jedieb]

Washington is going to go nuts over this baseball team. The area has a lot more money and people (especially N. Virginia) to support a baseball team. This team is going to be embraced by baseball fans well to the west of the beltway. I'm glad to have them, sad that it's at the expense of Kyle, but I'll give this NL team a good home. Push come to shove they're not going to outshine the Yankees for me, but that's why we've got 2 leagues. :)

Almost forgot, Yankees win yet another AL East title. That's 7 in a row. Maybe next year Sox fans. ;)

[Cyrel Annat]

As much of a fan of the Cubs as I am, they are done like dinner. I don't foresee Houston dropping any games to the Rockies and really, the Braves are gonna send all they have to keep the Cubs out since I imagine they would rather not face Wood, Prior, Zambrano, Maddux in a 5-game series.

[JMK]

Yeah, the Cubs own the Braves. Bobby Cox is going to throw the kitchen sink at the Cubs. The sad part is this is probably the best Cubs team on paper...maybe ever. And they had their chance, they can beat anyone in the NL if they're clicking, and especially with that rotation. They're going to have to sweep the Braves and hope that the Rockies somehow take down the Astros. But seeing as though we're talking about the Cubs...that ain't gonna happen.

[Jedieb]

That's it, the Cubs are toast. They lost 5-4 to the Braves. Wood gave up all 5 runs, 1 of them on a homer to Mike Hampton of all people. They've lost 6 of 7, how utterly pathetic. Yet another sad chapter for the lovable losers.

The A's and Angles should be a great series. All tied up, 3 games to settle the division. Sweet.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Actually the Astros are going to be a problem for the Braves. The way they are playing I wouldn't want to play them. This was the team people were talking about at the beginning of the season.

[Jedieb]

Between the Astros and Giants, I'll easily root for Houston. Clemens is a great story line and the B's deserve to finally have some post season success. Bonds, is just well, Bonds....... jerk!

[Jedi Master Carr]

LOL that is my opinion of Bonds. I hate the fact he will have the home run record is such an arrogant jerk. I think the Astros will win because they are playing the Rockies. The Giants get the Dodgers, I don't see the Dodgers lying over on them. I think the Angels will take 2 out of 3 against the A's and win the division, I think they will get the Yankees. The Twins will play the Red Sox.

[Jedieb]

If they Yankees go down in the first round I will cheer for the Sox to make it to the WS. I'll root for them if they go up against the Dodgers, because as everyone knows, Dodger Blue is Satan's favorite color. But I don't know if I could take your side against the Cards. The Braves I'll gladly heckle until my last breath. The Giants have Bonds and that's reason enough to spite them. Biggio and Clemens will get my vote against the Sox though.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I wish I could say I could root for the Yankees if Boston goes down heh. You are a stronger man than me :) Seriously I am not sure what is going to happen. The Cardinals have the best record but they might be like Seattle a few years ago. Heck if the Dodgers pitching is there they could take St. Louis out. The Astros will be tough. The Angels are dangerous if they get in.

[Figrin D'an]

In other news, Ichiro just broke George Sisler's hits record.

[JMK]

With today's loss to the Braves, the Cubs have been eliminated. Unbelievable.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah the blew it. Also what a day today, first the Angels come back down 4-1 and beat the A's 5-4 clinching the division. Then the Dodgers down 3-0 in the bottom of the ninth and Finley hits a Grand Slam to win the game and clinch the NL West. The Giants are about done. The Astros win out and they are in.

[JMK]

Finley has really saved the Dodgers bacon in the past few games. And the Astros did an amazing job of salvaging what could have been a disastrous season. Good for them.

[Jedieb]

The Angels eliminated the A's today. At least Oakland started it's season ending meltdown a bit early this time. Houston won and now controls its own destiny. If they win tomorrow, they're in. The Giants only hope is for a Houston loss and a win against the gutty Dodgers. Is anyone else intrigued by a possible Dodgers/Yankees WS? It doesn't get more classic than that. Those Dodgers/Yankees WS from the late 70's are some of my earliest baseball memories. I'd love to see them face off again. Just to see those clips of Reggie going deep 3 times on 3 pitches again. The sight of Garvey appluading at 1B after the last one is just priceless. :)

[Cyrel Annat]

Phil Garner should get some serious consideration for Manager of the Year and the only thing that could possibly hurt him is the fact that he only was there for half of it, but what a half. The Astros were little more than a distant blip on the proverbial radar a couple months ago and there they are, knocking on the door to the postseason and I hope they get it.

[Jedieb]

What the Astros did to get back in the race was amazing. They were dead and gone. Yeah, the Cubs imploded, if you look at how many games Houston won down the stretch you have to give them credit. I've been really impressed with the Dodgers as well. To come back and win 2 games in the 9th like they've done this past week is amazing. It's got to give them a huge boost going into the post season.

[JMK]

I still don't think the Dodgers' pitching will hold up, even though they've been terrific all year. Then again, I see all 4 NL teams as fairly evenly matched once the divisional round starts. The Cards have the decided edge with their record, but the playoffs are an entirely different animal. Anyone in the NL can come out of this...come to think of it, I think anyone in the AL can win it too. Every team has their strengths and weaknesses, it's going to be great to watch how it all shakes down?

Will the Yanks continue to live off the long ball against tougher pitching in the playoffs?

Will the Sox keep it together or will the implode in true RS fashion?

Will Johan Santana and Brad Radke carry the Twins to the next level?

Will the Angels tear the cover off the ball while their bullpen seals the deal?

Will the Astros be able to continue their momentum and sneak past the Cards?

Will the Braves continue to be the Braves? Coast in to the playoffs and then choke?

Will the Cards continue to overwhelm folks with talent, or is their dream season going to die?

Will the Dodgers' pitching staff be able to hold up in the tight situations their bound to be faced with in the playoffs?

This is going to be good! :cool

[Jedi Master Carr]

The Dodgers remind me of the Angels of two seasons ago. Their pitching was average but they had an oustanding bullpen. The Dodgers have both and a very good offense. They could be a surprise maybe like Anaheim or Florida was. The only other team that would shock everybody would be Minnesota at this point. Boston, NY, St Louis, and Anaheim wouldn't surprise anybody. Houston is a surprise considering they came back to life, but they were preseason favorties. The Braves, well I don't see them going far.

[Jedieb]

Braves postseason futility is about the only thing we can be sure of. I still think the Cards are the class of the NL. That lineup is just brutal. They can attack you from both sides of the plate, they can play defense, and their pitching is solid. Plus, Busch is going to be rocking.

Tomorrow the fun begins:
Los Angeles (Perez) at St. Louis (Williams)
Boston (Schilling) at Anaheim Washburn)
Minnesota (Santana) at NY Yankees (Mussina)

Wednesday
Houston (Clemems) at Atlanta (Wright)
Minnesota (Radke) at NY Yankees (Lieber)
Boston (Martinez) at Anaheim (Colon)

Thursday
Houston (Oswalt) at Atlanta (Thomson)
Los Angeles (Weaver) at St. Louis (Marquis)

[Jedi Master Carr]

We need to start a new thread on this for the playoffs I think I will do that now.