340 killed in Russia, 150+ children dead, Arab Terrorists among perps

[Lilaena De'Ville]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5881958/


Valery Andreyev, Russia’s Federal Security Service chief in the region, said 10 Arabs were among the militants killed. The Arab presence among the attackers would support Putin’s contention that al-Qaida terrorists were deeply involved in the Chechen conflict, where Muslim fighters have been battling Russian forces on and off for more than a decade.

This news, which I've been following for the last few days, absolutely sickens and saddens me. I am going to have a horrible holiday weekend. :(

My prayers go out to the families of those murdered.

[Dutchy]

Yeah, plain horrible to kill children. It's such a useless conflict with the Chechens.

Are you only now posting this because now it looks like Arabs are involved?

[Morgan Evanar]

Originally posted by DutchyAre you only now posting this because now it looks like Arabs are involved? ?!?

[Lilaena De'Ville]

:huh I'm posting now because it looks like all the stories got straight finally. Yesterday I was reading anything from 100 to 200 people killed, with hundreds wounded, but all the stories were coming out slightly different.

Also, I was surprised no one else was talking about this incident on the board already. I am posting this because there are over 150 KIDS dead, turned into hamburger meat by Chechnian (can't spell) terrorists.

[Dutchy]

Just wondering why you put Muslim in bold, because this terrible attack is part of the ever increasing Chechen conflict.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah this isn't an arab thing. Unfortuntently this awful incident is just a string in a very complicated thing. I have to say though this is Russia's fault in particular the leadership. They are the ones who started the mess by butchering the chechen people killing women and children and raping some of the women. This started this mess now it is getting worse. Honestly the only way peace will happen is two things at this point. Russia would have to give them independence. But I am not sure if that is going to happen right away after this awful tragedy.

[Dutchy]

Indeed, Russia doesn't seem to be able to handle these things very well. Like two years ago with more than 100 people dead in that theater. Hostages like these always end in a blood bath.

About peace, yes, Russia would have to give them independence. It makes you wonder why they just won't. They have such a huge country that they won't exactly miss a few square miles. But maybe more groups then want to take a few miles and that's probably keeping them.

[Figrin D'an]

While this is a horrific event, and I have great sympathy for those who have lost loved ones in the violence, I'm equally if not more concerned with what the response by Putin and the Russian government will be. This sort of thing is just the excuse he could need to authorize increased military intervention in their policing actions.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah which would cause more blood. It is a very messy situation.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Originally posted by Dutchy
Just wondering why you put Muslim in bold, because this terrible attack is part of the ever increasing Chechen conflict.

Did you even read what I quoted? I thought it was interesting that the Chechens fighting are Muslims, yes. No, that doesn't make them Arab, that makes them Muslim. Just like being Catholic doesn't make you Italian.

As far as the dead hostages being the fault of the Russians, I fail to see how over 1000 hostages are taken (i think), denied food and water or bathroom breaks for 3 DAYS (many of the children would have died from dehydration had it gone on any longer), and then killed when bombs set by the terrorists go off in the school gym where the hostages are being held... AFTER which the Russian forces moved in... How can their deaths be the fault of the Russian Government?

Oh wait, I forgot, their country is not theirs, which makes it all right to go out and kill people. My bad.

[Jarek T'chort]

The Russian forces on the scene seem to have made a bit of a mess. Where were the medical staff? Ambulances? Where was any sort of effective cordon around the place? It seems there were many wrong decisions made.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well it is the government's fault because they burned down half the towns in their state. Murdered innocent women and children. And there are accusations the men raped the women down there. The stuff that happen there was brutal, so it is their govt.'s fault. IF they had acted like Huns in that provience there wouldn't be no chechen terrorists.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
Did you even read what I quoted? I thought it was interesting that the Chechens fighting are Muslims, yes. No, that doesn't make them Arab, that makes them Muslim. Just like being Catholic doesn't make you Italian.

Muslims, Arab, al-Qaida, whatever.

You emphasized the word Muslim where I thought the death of 340 people, including 150 children, should be emphasized.

[Dutchy]

Oh, and of course it's not the fault of the Russians. It's just that they could have handled the situation better than they did.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Well it is the government's fault because they burned down half the towns in their state. Murdered innocent women and children. And there are accusations the men raped the women down there. The stuff that happen there was brutal, so it is their govt.'s fault. IF they had acted like Huns in that provience there wouldn't be no chechen terrorists.



I dont see eye to eye with a lot of your statements, but I have to mainly agree with this one - Russia's rigid response to the conflict and separtists has just simply sown the seds for terrorism and what you have is the two airliners blown up, a suicide bomber and now this horrific incident. Not to mention half a dozen other incidents and the Moscow theatre seige.

Holly, please read some background on the Chenya conflicit. Russia 10 years ago and again 5 years ago hammered the homeland of these terrorists, killing a hell of a lot more women and children, destroying their livelihoods. Your highlighting of Muslim was rather puzzling - It's not about religion, it's about Chenya seperationg from Russia and how Russia has reacted - a rather savage and long runnign conflict with many thousands of caualties


Originally posted by Figrin D'an
While this is a horrific event, and I have great sympathy for those who have lost loved ones in the violence, I'm equally if not more concerned with what the response by Putin and the Russian government will be. This sort of thing is just the excuse he could need to authorize increased military intervention in their policing actions.

He's already shown he doesnt need an excuse, but you do have to wonder what he will do in response. The pictures of Grozni (sp) flattened in the second war in Chenya come back to me. I hope the response isnt too far over the top.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
As far as the dead hostages being the fault of the Russians, I fail to see how over 1000 hostages are taken (i think), denied food and water or bathroom breaks for 3 DAYS (many of the children would have died from dehydration had it gone on any longer), and then killed when bombs set by the terrorists go off in the school gym where the hostages are being held... AFTER which the Russian forces moved in... How can their deaths be the fault of the Russian Government?


While not directly the fault of the Russian government, one can argue, pretty convincingly, that it is indirectly responsible. One only needs look at the modren history of Russian military activity in that region for evidence to that point. Like Carr said, there was a lot of brutality commited by Russian forces against the people of Chechnya, all in the name of peacekeeping. Of course acts of terrorism like this are a horrible thing, but had the pilaging and burning not taken place, terrorist retaliation might not have been nearly so severe.




Originally posted by Marcus Telcontar
He's already shown he doesnt need an excuse, but you do have to wonder what he will do in response. The pictures of Grozni (sp) flattened in the second war in Chenya come back to me. I hope the response isnt too far over the top.


True, but considering how Putin was before he came to power as a political leader, he's capable of far worse than we have seen thus far. That's why I'm concerned that, with something like this, he may be able to convince his supporters in the government to let him really take the gloves off, so to speak.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Now I have to say I don't condone any of these. These terrorists are awful people. I just think the Russian government is partly to blame with their actions in Chechnya.

[imported_Eve]

I think Holly noted Muslims because some media sources are making connections between this event and Al-Qaida, even if its still Chechnya. Maybe?

This incident is sick, just like all other terrorist activity. Justifying it doesn't solve anything for Chechnya.

[ReaperFett]

Originally posted by Dutchy
Muslims, Arab, al-Qaida, whatever.

You emphasized the word Muslim where I thought the death of 340 people, including 150 children, should be emphasized.
And I think you should apologise for saying she only posted it because Arabs were involved.


There is some blame to be had on the Russian organisation for how this went. They needed to be organised, and that was NOT organised. When the parents broke through the barracade they had made, they ended up giving up trying to get them back. A barracade made for safety, unimportant apparently.

And it was only two years ago when 118 hostages were killed in a theatre siege, 116 of them via gas that was pumped into the place by the Russian special forces.


Truly sad day.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think the Al' Quadi stuff is crap. They care less about Chechnya and vice versa. Still I agree with you not sure why they targeted a school, really doesn't help them.

[imported_Eve]

An article I read yesterday had a list of Chechynian attacks, consistent for over ten years. Several people die everytime they make an attack. The cited events happened every few months.

Us Americans, we're scared since 9-11, but we have no idea what these people go through. It's all the time.

[Jedi Master Carr]

well its more complicated its more like Israel-Palestine, IMO.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
And I think you should apologise for saying she only posted it because Arabs were involved.

Of course she didn't ONLY post it because Arabs were involved. I was just wondering why she posted it just now. Especially highlighting the word Muslim made me wonder.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Originally posted by Eve
I think Holly noted Muslims because some media sources are making connections between this event and Al-Qaida, even if its still Chechnya. Maybe?

This incident is sick, just like all other terrorist activity. Justifying it doesn't solve anything for Chechnya. Yes, this is right. People call them 'rebels' and 'insurgents' but this *could* prove that Al-Qaida is deeply involved with the Chechan 'rebels.' They said that this attack on the school has been planned for more than a year, with the explosives hidden beneath the floor of the gym when it was under construction last summer.

This was a horrible, terrorist event, and does nothing for the Chechan cause.

edit: This is not to say I agree with Russian human rights abuses in Chechyna at all.

[Figrin D'an]

http://slate.msn.com/id/2106287/

Here's kind of a cheat-sheet summarization of the modern history of the Chechyna conflict. While it doesn't go into a lot of detail, it will give a decent base knowledge of events to anyone who isn't really up on the whole situation. Pretty good article overall.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That is a g great article. I see why they targeted the school now after the hospital thing. I think they believe if they have children hostages, Russia will give in. In this case they did not. Although it does look like Russia military botched this one like the theater one. Finally I don't think Al'Quadi is behind this. As the article pointed out the Checynas have plenty of motivation to commit their acts of terrorism and they need no help doing it. I think this thing is completely complicated and is much like Northern Ireland-England and Palestine-Israel situations in the past.

[TieFighterPilot181st]

i don't think it really matters who is behind terrorism. We as a world community need to get rid of it no matter whoever is committing it because thats the only way to prevent terrorism.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by TieFighterPilot181st
i don't think it really matters who is behind terrorism. We as a world community need to get rid of it no matter whoever is committing it because thats the only way to prevent terrorism.

Terroism has existed since the first human threw a rock at another human. You just cant prevent it.

BUT

You can do two things - attack those truly who commit these acts and more importantly, cut the support for such acts out from under them. Remove the reasons why such horrific acts are committed. Unfortunantly as can be seen via the various links about Chenya, Russia has been creating a fertile ground for these extremeists. Russia is goign to have to deal with that to stop a war beign fought with terrorism

However, you also have JI, who has no real support and yet, is pushing it's own agenda for a SE Asian Caliph. They also strike due to East Timor, which was a justified intervention by the Western allies. These scum are the they type who deserve no mercy and it is right to just go after militarily - due to the fact they have no public support and even vaguely just agenda.

And why the hell Australia was in Iraq while a single one of these JI scum exist right in our backyard is a question our governemnt is going to have to answer as it is now clear Australia is a target - and hopefully before JI hits the aust mainland. which I no longer hold any hope will happen. It's only a matter of time before JI hits a target here.

[Taataani Meorrrei]

Originally posted by Marcus Telcontar
Terroism has existed since the first human threw a rock at another human. You just cant prevent it.

I'd be hesitant to agree. For one, I think the term "terrorism" gets thrown about entirely too often in the first place.

For one - Iraq. Terrorism? No, I don't think it is. Those guys are guerrillas and partisans. They're fighting an asymmetrical battle against what amounts to be our military, the Iraqi police forces, and whatever independent contractors exist there.

Real terrorism is somewhat new, really. The reasoning probably has less to do with human nature and more to do with being technologically empowered to use terror tactics against civilians.

[TieFighterPilot181st]

I disagree. What is happening in Iraq is terrorism. They are taking hostages and targeting civilians in addiction to US military personnel.

[Taataani Meorrrei]

Originally posted by TieFighterPilot181st
I disagree. What is happening in Iraq is terrorism. They are taking hostages and targeting civilians in addiction to US military personnel.

Got a link about targeting civilians?

[TieFighterPilot181st]

Civilians are dying everytime the terrorists launch a missile or plant a car bomb.

[Taataani Meorrrei]

That's collateral death. Got a link showing that the insurgents are specifically targeting civilians?

[TieFighterPilot181st]

I dont have a link right now but i do have specific instances. They are targeting members of the new Iraqi government who are civilians.

[Jedieb]

Civilians are getting killed and wounded virtually every time U.S. forces engage insurgents. 'Collateral Death' isn't too bad of a term to use. Insurgents are using civilians as cover so it's no wonder so many are being hit.

Fig and others have made excellent points as to why these maniacs carried out this massacre. I believe that if one of your main weapons against "terroism" is a brutal military response, then this is what it can lead to. I've been critical of our invasion of Iraq and events such as the Abu-Gharib scandal, but I don't believe that we've been as brutal as Russia has. Can you imagine how far the Soviets were willing to go during their invasion and occupation of Afghanistan? They sure as hell weren't as concerned with "colateral death" as we are. For me, that's always been one of the warning signs that eventually, our actions in Iraq and even Afghanistan will not have favorable outcomes in the long term.

[TieFighterPilot181st]

I believe that the deaths themselves were not a byproduct of military response. The reason this happened is because the Russians are not trained for this sort of thing, and neither do they have the money to train their soldiers.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Real terrorism is somewhat new, really. The reasoning probably has less to do with human nature and more to do with being technologically empowered to use terror tactics against civilians.

The Spanish Inquisition was terrorism. Unfortunantly I'm not mentally alert to really produce a decent post, I'll have to leave it at that and apologise for not really explaining myself.

I'd have to agree the Iraq Insurgency isnt terrorism however.

[Charley]

The inquisition was naked authoritarian oppression. I don't really think you can lump that and terrorism in the same box. They're kissing cousins in some respect, I guess.

[Jedieb]

I believe that the deaths themselves were not a byproduct of military response. The reason this happened is because the Russians are not trained for this sort of thing, and neither do they have the money to train their soldiers.

Many of the deaths, both at the school and the theater last year, were the result of a failed Russian millitary response. But it wasn't a botched rescue that precipitated the terroist attacks. It was the lengthy Russian response in Chechyna that's been alluded to here and summarized in Fig's link. Give both those situations to our military and there more than likely would have been fewer casualties, but you still would have been responding to terroists hitting a theater and a school and you still would have some body bags.

I can only imagine what Putin's response is going to be. You could make a case that the Russians have already been brutal enough, now that the whole nation is mourning many of them may give Putin a blank check to crack down even further.

[TieFighterPilot181st]

Terrorists are by nature not reasonable people. They don't act like most people do, which means they don't see that killing hundreds of children hurts them. All they care is to cause more hurt so they can gain more notoriety.