Tour de France '04

[Figrin D'an]

The Tour has been going on for more than a week now (Stage 13 was today), but things really finally got interesting as the real challengers for the Yellow Jersey seperated themselves from the pack.

After hanging back in 6th place, about 9:30 minutes off the pace, Lance Armstrong finally made his move in Stages 12 and 13 (the Pyrenees stages of the race), finished second in Stage 12 to Ivan Basso, and winning Stage 13 (Basso was in second, right on Armstrong's tail) to cut all but 22 seconds off of the lead. Thomas Voeckler still holds the Yellow Jersey, and probably will for another stage, but he will likely lose it once the race gets to the Alps. (Not to take away anything from what Voeckler has done in the Tour. He's been able to respond to almost every challenge, and should be a favorite to win the Tour within a couple of years).

2 flat stages, 2 mountain stages and 2 individual time-trials left before the final ride into Paris for the finish. Baring a serious crash, it would seem that Armstrong has a sixth Tour victory in his sights. Most of his major rivals are out or well off the pace (Jan Ullrich is 7 minutes behind, Iban Mayo is long gone at 45 minutes back, and Tyler Hamilton, unfortunately, had to drop out of the race because of severe back pain caused by a crash in one of the earlier stages). Ivan Basso is probably the biggest competition right now (3rd overall, 1:39 off the lead), and has been impressive in the mountains, sticking to Armstrong and US Postal like glue. Ullrich can make up some time in the time-trials, but the question is how much, and will it be enough to cut into the lead to make the final ride into Paris actually count?


Of course, all of the interesting stories in the Tour itself are having a rather large shadow cast upon them by the doping allegations brought against Armstrong and his team. The book being published about his supposed transgressions was a rather large attention grabber, but now Greg LeMond, the former 3-time Tour champion and the first American to ever win the Tour, has made comments about the situation, and seems skeptical himself in believing that Armstrong is clean. His comments can be found here (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=1841300) (courtesy of ESPN.com).

It's difficult to gauge how much truth there is in the various allegations, because of the different sources from which they are springing. Some are so irreputable that they can almost be completely ignored, but when someone like LeMond speaks up, it hard not to pause and pay attention. Armstrong has never failed a drug test, and he's one of the most tested athletes in the world (cycling drug testing is really strict now after the scandals they had in the mid & late '90s). So, either he's clean, or he's taking something that is thusfar completely undetectable.

It's a shame that what could be one of the more amazing accomplishments in sports is being overshadowed by such a thing, especially when there is essentially no proof of anything illegal, mearly heresay and conjecture. If evidence is eventually found of something unscrupulous, then I certainly hope it is brought forward. Until then, though, I just wish that the mudslinging would stop. It's too bad that it won't.

At least the Tour has been fairly entertaining.

[Dutchy]

The Tour has been going on for TWO weeks already, and hasn't gotten interesting at all. Armstrong has no competition left at all, if he had any. He's been the favorite since the prologue, where he ended in 2nd place with his major concurrents already surprisingly far away. Looking back that was already the first sign of the bad shape of Hamilton, Ullrich and Heras. When Mayo fell in the first week one of Armstrong's biggest concurrents was eliminated.

It's been 2 weird days, Friday and Saturday. Armstrong without doing anything really, lost all but 1 concurrent. Hamilton, Mayo, Ullrich, Heras, Zubeldia, Menchov all given up or way down. Basso, his 1 concurrent, isn't much of a concurrent either, for he'll lose 1 or 2 minutes in the flat time trial.

Yesterday, at the first real mountain stage, there was no question what so ever who is going to win this tour: Lance Armstrong. For a record 6th time. I see him returning next year to pick up his 7th.

[CMJ]

Until 2 days ago I thought Lance was in trouble. Now things look increasingly good for him. This is arguably his toughest Tour to win(even over last year). He's never not had the Yellow Jersey this late in the race.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Only because of one breakway - it's was clear, even with 9 minutes up on him, Armstrong would reel that back in the mountains. I honesty didnt think he was in trouble. The current yellow jersey wearer has put up a brave fight, but he knows the next mountain stage, Armstrong will have the yellow and that will be it.

It has been rather predictable so far. You just know it's only going to be one more day. But, he is the best, he deserves it.

Re : Drug accusations. The problem is, drugs in cycling has been a real problem for a lot longer than other sports. In I think it was 1968, a rider who was favoured to win the yellow died of a hert attack on one of the mountain stages. It was found to be caused by steroids. The tour was hit badly a few years ago, more riders have been cast out this year. The taint of drug use generally hangs over the sport. Australian cyclists have been hit too, two so far kicked out of the Olympic team.

Who knows what the truth is, whether any althele is clean these days. I presonally doubt it. Still, clean or not, There's no way us could make one of those accents in the Tour de France. Painful just to look at.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Marcus Telcontar
Only because of one breakway - it's was clear, even with 9 minutes up on him, Armstrong would reel that back in the mountains. I honesty didnt think he was in trouble. The current yellow jersey wearer has put up a brave fight, but he knows the next mountain stage, Armstrong will have the yellow and that will be it.

Exactly.


Originally posted by CMJ
Until 2 days ago I thought Lance was in trouble. Now things look increasingly good for him. This is arguably his toughest Tour to win(even over last year). He's never not had the Yellow Jersey this late in the race.

CMJ, Lance doesn't care when he gets the yellow jersey. The only yellow jersey that matters to him is the one that's handed out in Paris, and he hasn't been in trouble for that one to be handed out to him one bit.

[CMJ]

I know he doesn't care when he gets it. But there's no arguing he's never NOT had it this far in. That's a fact.

[Dutchy]

That's just because the mountain stages were never put so far behind since he entered.

And you thought he was in trouble. Well, no reason to think that at all.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Dutchy
That's just because the mountain stages were never put so far behind since he entered.


Traditionally, Armstrong has been in yellow when the race has moved out of the Pyrenees. This year, he doesn't have it yet. No, he's not in trouble, because there isn't anyone around him that that can really challenge his position, but it's still a valid point that CMJ made.




And you thought he was in trouble. Well, no reason to think that at all.


Is there a point to this comment? I don't know about anyone else, but it comes off as being rather snobbish and arrogant to me.

All I want in this thread is some decent conversation about the Tour and about the allegations leveled against Armstrong. Keep the snide remarks to yourself.

[Arya Ravenwing]

Lance Armstrong is amazing. I doubt that the allegations are true. Maybe I should say that I HOPE they are not true.

And if you've seen the movie Dodgeball, he makes a hilarious pep talk to Vince Vaughn's character near the end. :D:thumbup

[CMJ]

It's okay Figrin. Dutchy was just trying to jerk my chain a bit. ;)

[Dutchy]

I'm just giving my view as a non American viewer. It surprises me how Figrin and CMJ look at it by saying that the Tour is now getting interesting and that Lance was in trouble.

Oh, Figrin, didn't mean to come off like that at all. Sometimes written lines look a lot colder than they're intended.

[Dutchy]

Armstrong wins the stage and gets the yellow jersey.

See? No problem. :)

[Figrin D'an]

Mayo dropped out of the race, too.

Ullrich made a good attack attempt today, but Armstrong was too much.

Voeckler deserves a lot of praise. To hang on the yellow jersey for as long as he did was impressive. It was a given that he was going to lose it today, but I was surprised that he didn't lose it earlier.


Dutchy, sorry to jump on you like that. It just didn't sound all that cordial when I first read it. My mistake.

[Charley]

Why are we apologizing to Dutchy? I thought he was to be scorned by default for being smarmy and european :)

[CMJ]

Originally posted by Charley
Why are we apologizing to Dutchy? I thought he was to be scorned by default for being smarmy and european :)

Nominee for quote of the week. :lol

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by Dutchy
Armstrong wins the stage and gets the yellow jersey.

See? No problem. :)

And how predictable - Barring an accident, he's got this one won. He's turned Tour de France into a snoozefest like Schmacher turned F1 into a snoozefest ;)

[JMK]

Here's something I don't understand, but at the same time, terms like 'snoozefest' make perfect sense for the Tour and the F1 Circuit.
When we see guys like Bonds, Jordan, Gretzky, etc. COMPLETELY dominate their sport and totally re-write the record books, we're totally enthralled. But when someone like Schumacher or Armstrong gets on an unbelievable run, we all hit the snooze button and dismiss it altogether.
I'm guilty in this too, but I'm not sure why. These guys are the best of the best, yet we label them and their sport as lame and boring.

[Charley]

Originally posted by JMK
Here's something I don't understand, but at the same time, terms like 'snoozefest' make perfect sense for the Tour and the F1 Circuit.
When we see guys like Bonds, Jordan, Gretzky, etc. COMPLETELY dominate their sport and totally re-write the record books, we're totally enthralled. But when someone like Schumacher or Armstrong gets on an unbelievable run, we all hit the snooze button and dismiss it altogether.
I'm guilty in this too, but I'm not sure why. These guys are the best of the best, yet we label them and their sport as lame and boring.

Not I. I'm morbidly drawn to it to see just how far he can go.

[Ryan Pode]

I think its neat that he can ride up the Alps. I know I sure as heck can't.

[JMK]

Originally posted by Charley
Not I. I'm morbidly drawn to it to see just how far he can go.

Is that because Armstrong is American, you're into cycling, or both? And what about Schumacher? Are you interested to see how far he can take it, or does F1 bore you as it does most people who aren't die hards?

[Charley]

Originally posted by JMK
Is that because Armstrong is American, you're into cycling, or both? And what about Schumacher? Are you interested to see how far he can take it, or does F1 bore you as it does most people who aren't die hards?

Mostly because every time he wins, it is a world record winning streak, but I suppose you can throw some national pride into the mix too ;)

[James Prent]

What is the F1? I apologize for my ignorance. :o

[JMK]

It's car racing, not like those giant stock cars from NASCAR, but the type of racing you saw in that Stallone bomb "Driver".

[jjwr]

Bah....car racing, personally for me it doesn't matter what kind it is, the whole lot is boring. Cycling included, though I don't watch it, just read the results online or see them on Sportscenter.

That being said Armstrong padded his lead today so like they say barring a crash this is pretty much in the bag.

My big question is what would they do if a fan interferred with a rider causing them to lose? In this past stage the fans almost caused a few crashses. Say Armstrong is cruising along and a fan sticks something in the spokes or what not and totals the bike causing him to lose the stage/race, would it be tough luck for him?

[JMK]

Good question, I don't know what they would do. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if someone did try to take out Armstrong.

[Figrin D'an]

Pretty much the only thing preventing that from happening is fear for one's safety. For every person along the roadside that would seriously consider doing something like that, there's about 500 who would subsequently jump on and beat said person to within inches of his life if he actually did. Despite that there are cycling fans that don't like Armstrong, there are probably more that are supporting him. (Just watch a stage sometime, and see how many people there are cheering him on and waving American flags... most of them aren't American.)

That said... crowd control, especially in the mountain stages, needs to improve. There were a couple crashes in last year's Tour that were caused, directly or not, by people getting the way on the roads.

[CMJ]

http://www.workmanweb.com/catalog/seeexcerpt.cgi?0761135200

Scientific explanation of what makes Lance so great.

[jjwr]

Wow....thats pretty impressive really.

32 Beats per minute! I'm fairly active, reasonably fit and mine is in the 50's, I couldn't imagine 32!

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by JMK
It's car racing, not like those giant stock cars from NASCAR, but the type of racing you saw in that Stallone bomb "Driver".

Apologise for even thinking about comparing any form of motor racign to 'Driver' please. As a resonably good motor racer, I am insulted and deeply offended.

To be honest, cycling or F1 is mind bogglingly boring to watch at the best of times. It's admirable that say in Schmacher's case the blend of man and machine creates a level of performance so astonishing, it's hard to think of a comparision - but it makes the whole sport predictable.


Say Armstrong is cruising along and a fan sticks something in the spokes or what not and totals the bike causing him to lose the stage/race, would it be tough luck for him?

It would be tough luck. BTW, someone who does something like that is no fan. Real fans of the sport would be cheering Armstrong on, not trying to sabotage him.

[Master Yoghurt]

Yeah, it would be tough luck. I seem to remember someone fell off the bike in 97 due to fan getting into the path (unintentional accident), and he got no time compensation.

[JMK]

Originally posted by Marcus Telcontar
Apologise for even thinking about comparing any form of motor racign to 'Driver' please. As a resonably good motor racer, I am insulted and deeply offended.


Sorry if I raised your ire, but ease up dude, all I was doing was trying to point out to LD what the cars looked like in comparison to a stock car, and what sort of track they may drive on instead of an oval. Chill. Out.

[Dutchy]

Fantastic performance by Armstrong again today. He won yet another stage. I'm not a fan, and I really hoped he wouldn't win his 6th Tour, but what an athlete. Very impressive.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by JMK
Here's something I don't understand, but at the same time, terms like 'snoozefest' make perfect sense for the Tour and the F1 Circuit.
When we see guys like Bonds, Jordan, Gretzky, etc. COMPLETELY dominate their sport and totally re-write the record books, we're totally enthralled. But when someone like Schumacher or Armstrong gets on an unbelievable run, we all hit the snooze button and dismiss it altogether.
I'm guilty in this too, but I'm not sure why. These guys are the best of the best, yet we label them and their sport as lame and boring.

We as in 'Americans', you mean?

We should stand for 'anyone who doesn't like F1 and cycling'. Of course you want to see a great competition, but if you like the sport, you can be thrilled about the dominance of one athlete too.

I personally couldn't care less about those guys you name there. :)

[The Man in Black]

Originally posted by Dutchy
We as in 'Americans', you mean?

We should stand for 'anyone who doesn't like F1 and cycling'. Of course you want to see a great competition, but if you like the sport, you can be thrilled about the dominance of one athlete too.

I personally couldn't care less about those guys you name there. :)

JMK isn't an American, you knob ;)

[JMK]

:lol

No, I'm not, but when I refer to 'we', I'm talking about North American sports fans.

I am just curious to the reasoning of why we shower guys like Gretzky, Jordan, etc with so much praise and adulation, yet when a guy like Schumacher or Armstrong displays the same type of dominance, perhaps even more, we dismiss their sport as boring and predictable. Is it because when one guy stands out in a team sport, he is standing out in a field of hundreds to athletes whereas in F-1, it's one guy in a field of a couple dozen? I'm not sure what it is, but I would love to find out what.

[The Man in Black]

Originally posted by JMK
:lol

No, I'm not, but when I refer to 'we', I'm talking about North American sports fans.

I am just curious to the reasoning of why we shower guys like Gretzky, Jordan, etc with so much praise and adulation, yet when a guy like Schumacher or Armstrong displays the same type of dominance, perhaps even more, we dismiss their sport as boring and predictable. Is it because when one guy stands out in a team sport, he is standing out in a field of hundreds to athletes whereas in F-1, it's one guy in a field of a couple dozen? I'm not sure what it is, but I would love to find out what.

I'd say it's more to do with the fact that Gretzky, Jordan, etc are simply players on a team. In other words, they are a factor, but not the entire reason of superior performance.

Then again, I'm fascinated by Armstrong as well, so I don't subscribe to this.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by JMK
Is it because when one guy stands out in a team sport, he is standing out in a field of hundreds to athletes whereas in F-1, it's one guy in a field of a couple dozen? I'm not sure what it is, but I would love to find out what.

In cycling Armstrong also stands out in a field of hundreds.

Maybe North Americans are more into team sports than individual sports? I myself am definitely more into the latter.

[Ryan Pode]

Team sports are pretty much the big thing here. Football, Basketball, Hockey, Baseball, etc.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Ryan Pode
Team sports are pretty much the big thing here. Football, Basketball, Hockey, Baseball, etc.

I have to agree. Team sports very much dominate the scene in the US. The largest individual "sports" that garner attention in the States are NASCAR and golf.

[CMJ]

Originally posted by Dutchy
In cycling Armstrong also stands out in a field of hundreds.

Maybe North Americans are more into team sports than individual sports? I myself am definitely more into the latter.

That's an accurate observation. While we do follow golf, tennis, etc. to an extent - we're a team sports culture by and large. Though there are exceptions. I follow several individual sports.

[Stafford]

While we do follow golf, tennis, etc. to an extent - we're a team sports culture by and large. Though there are exceptions. I follow several individual sports.

I agree. That's also one of the reasons why fencing hasn't quite caught on here as it has in Europe, though there is a growing base.

You'd think with all our individuality we Americans would be more into solo sports. That might be why we idolize people like Michael Jordan, because he stands out in a team, and he's still an individual.

[CMJ]

Originally posted by Stafford
I agree. That's also one of the reasons why fencing hasn't quite caught on here as it has in Europe, though there is a growing base.

You'd think with all our individuality we Americans would be more into solo sports. That might be why we idolize people like Michael Jordan, because he stands out in a team, and he's still an individual.

The film The Right Stuff kind of makes the same argument about what makes a hero in America. In the "old days" it was the rugged cowboy - and during the space race it was thwe astronaut. Maybe a "cowboy" in a way, but a member of a team.

BTW...a fantastic flick if you've never watched it. One of my all-time faves.

[Dutchy]

Armstrong wins his 6th Tour de France. Six in a row, even.

Very impressive. What an athlete.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Yay for Lance! I couldn't ride a bike up a hill, let alone the Alps.

[Figrin D'an]

It'll be interesting to see if he decides to race in some other big time events now. That seems to be the popular rumor... that he'll take a break from his Tour-centric focus, do some other races, then think about coming back to the Tour in a couple of years.

I guess it probably depends upon how he feels about his legacy. Eddie Merckx is pretty universally regarded as the greatest cyclist ever, and while Armstrong probably can't grab that title, he could do some things to enhance his resume and close the gap, bumping himself up the unofficial list of the all-time greats.

[Dutchy]

Yeah, well said.

I don't think he'll come back in "a couple of years", though. He turns 33 in September.