The average time and size of fleets

[Dolash]

I understand that fleeting - in general - is frowned upon here, but it appears that so long as I don't do too much, it's still ok. So my question is, just how big are fleets here, and how long do they take to make?

I mean, at TRF (Which has an entire fleeting system) ships are built at a rate of 150 meters of construction a (real) day per shipyard, and six shipyards per third world taken. That means that by now a faction like the Outer Rim Soverinty, which controls 15 worlds, has about 450-500 capital ships at one time. This ships range in size from 150 meters to 7,325 meters. Plus tens of thousands of fighters. And don't even get me started on The New Order's forces.

Now that doesn't seem the sort of thing you guys do, so how big are the fleets around here? And how much time/effort does it usually take ot assemble said fleets?

[Sith Ahnk]

Ships are built at 100 meters a day, Dolash.

[Dolash]

Good thing I'm not in charge of builds!

Yeah, he's right, it's a hundred.

[Charley]

We don't do build times, or other such bean counting.

[Dolash]

Well yeah, but I need an idea as to how big fleets here are, generally.

I mean, what is considered a big force? If I attacked an imperail world (for example) with an Imperator star destroyer and fifty fighters, would that be an insignificant force, or a fearsome one? Are there a handful, dozens, or hundreds of capital ships under the power of galactic governments?

That sort of thing. I'm trying to gauge how many ships the Azguardians will begin constructing during their industrial revoloution, set to begin soon.

(p.s. booya! Avatar's working!)

[Charley]

I RP in rather small factions (Confederacy), and what constitutes a "large" force to me is 3 or more ~1 km or greater ships (including Victory SD's, Korri Galleons, etc)

I'd consider an ISD to be a medium-ish force.

As for fleet sizes, since I RP in smaller groups, I can only speak in terms of what they have. The Cizerack Pride operates roughly 90 capital ships, but I'd say 70% are below 200 meters and only one exceeds the 1 kilometer mark (2 km in length)

The rest of the confederacy has significantly less, so I'd imagine that if their assets were summed up, it would come in at maybe 120 capital ships at most.

I have no context on the Imperial or Republic factions, but I'd guesstimate that the imperial groups operate at twice the strength of the Confederacy, and the NR would have far, far more.

But really, all our stuff is dictated by common sense. Roster-keeping and playing RP accountant died a long time ago.

[Dolash]

Well yeah, but if you intend to actually use your military, then you've gotta keep some records. Anyways, thanks for the info, I'm keep it in mind as I get building.

[Charley]

No, you really don't

[Morgan Evanar]

No, you really just use a measure of sense, or else.

[Travis North]

To get a feel for the fleets here you may want to read the currnet fleet battle between the NR and the Imperial Sovereignty here (http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34457).

[Khendon Sevon]

It's basically how much you truly believe you could field, i.e. common sense.

I'd say the Federacy has only a few SD sized vessels (around 10 or less) and several smaller pocket battleships, cruisers, frigates (around 100 or so, though they range in size from 20m-950m)

Don't judge how many you have based on other people, it's like my above stated, it's an estimation based on how much you believe your people could bring into a battle.

A good note would be that your fleet shouldn't all be in one place all together. That's another reason no one needs set numbers. We have a little bit of our fleet here, some over there, a block of ships out somewhere else.

Just use good judgement for each RP.

[Charley]

Very true.

The Cizerack, for example, have a fleet of mainly sublight patrol ships, which act as revenue enforcement on the busy trading lanes around the Carshoulis Cluster. The 30-ish other capital ships in their fleet are heavily fortified cargo cruisers, designed primarily to defend valuable convoys. They have <10 frigate/destroyer type of traditional "warships", but they generally don't get much use.

[Lion El' Jonson]

Like everyone else said, just use common sense. Keeping tallies of ships is what killed fleet RPing in the first place, and we're doing much better without it. For one, eliminating the bean counting tends to keep the trolls out of fleet RPing, since they usually throw a fit and leave when they're not allowed to bring 600 ISDs in system and kill everything with one post.

For an example of why bean-counting was bad, read this early *shudder* RP:

http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7407&highlight=

See what I mean? As long as people are willing to give and take, we generally have a good time with our RPs. Charley and Morgan have been here a long time. Listen to them. :lol

[Jarek T'chort]

Wow...Lion...that link makes me want to curl into a fetal position and rock to and fro in the corner.

As to Fleet sizes etc, as has been said, all down to common sense. The Imperial Sovereignty has a sizeable fleet, but it is dwarfed by the NR. However, both fleets are stretched out guarding borders etc. This means though the NR greatly outnumbers and outguns us, we can still Rp due to the fact they can't bring their entire forces down upon us. Likewise, we can't bring all of our forces to bear, so we end up fairly evenly matched.

Oh and SSD's are frowned upon too. Currently the Sovereignty has one, as does Balmorra. But they are command ships and stay out of the action.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Yeah, because it is against common sense for a small group of planets to have 20 SSDs. I mean, even the Empire in the movies only had one that i know of.

[Dark Lord Rivin]

As most people know by now if they have been paying attention to what's going on with Rivin, That Rivin is the leader of a nice sized crime sindicate. What you may not know is that Rivin has a small fleet that belongs to the sindicate. This is not suprising because I've only mentioned one ship in one RP. I posted this in TSO's Private Forum...


This is really a question about Rivin's Crime sindicate. What would TSO do it they found out about Rivin's extra curricular activities? Or about his small Fleet of ships? the Ships he has is:

1 Victory Class SD
1 Old Republic Dreadnaught
4 Corellian Corvettes
and a number of small transports and cargo vessels

I will also add that the ships he has other than the small transports and cargo vessels were rebuilt from combat ravaged vessels that were abandon floting dead in space. He salvaged them and rebuilt them to the best that his Criminal orgnisation could, so they don't look all that pritty, and the weapons systems are half of, or slightly less than half of the normal compliment, though the armor is a bit thicker, and the shield have been upgraded.

The question was answer that They have no problem with it as long as I don't step on TSO's toes, but it gives you an Idea of what I think is a reasonable fleet.

[Darth007]

wow.. look at the dates of those posts...


09-11-01 05:15 AM

3 hours later the world changed. Makes you stop and think.

[Morgan Evanar]

Please do not hijack this topic, thank you. If you want to have a 9/11 thread, this is not the proper forum.

[imported_Reshmar]

The Empire had alot of SSD's
I could list them if you like :D

Also A SSD generally take the resources of an entire planet to operate. And they are really just big targets. :lol

When I was talking to people about starting the Chiss Empire I was told 1 or 2 Over 1,000 meters and 8 to 10 smaller support ships for a planet. which isn't that bad if you look at the fleets we are using. with Orbital defenses and ground based weapons you can more then protect yourself. but that has since been forgotten i believe. that would limit the Sov to less ships then they have currently. the Fed too.

But I like the way we are doing it now just common since. Communication is the best fleeting tool to have.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Common sense and fairplay's been pretty much the only rule truly needed, ever. I'm glad it's not just one or two preaching it now, it's nearly everyone. I'm also glad its now the case fleeting doesnt suck :)

[Lion El' Jonson]

There are three very simple reasons that fleeting is fun at the moment:

1.) The new "common sense, no big ships, no bean counting" rules...

2.) The absence of trolls...

3.) And much better planning and communication between the major groups.

As a slight aside, I'm planning on pretending that the old MCC-150 super-heavy cruisers don't exist. Lion has been basing his command off of one, but since it could whoop an SSD, I can never bring it into action. We're replacing the largest capital ships in our navy with Mediator-class Battlecruisers, two of which could take on an SSD. These things won't be showing up in many (or any...) RPs, but they're a hell of a lot more believable to field than their monstrosity predecessors.

I'm not asking the NRSF to ditch the Defender; after all they're a seperate branch, it's their headquarters, and they're not allowed (thank god!) to do anything with it anyways. :lol

Right now, Fleet RP rules regarding large ships is...ask permission to use them.

And I hope everyone winced at that RP...even you, Marcus. ^_^;

[Marcus Telcontar]

Defender is an non issue Lion - the NRSF long ago put that bastard in orbit somewhere and abandoned it or sold it for scrap.. or... frell, you know I'm supposed to be the one who controlled that monster and I have utterly no idea where it ended up. It always seems to fall through a crack somewhere. I'd forgotten that beast existed!

it was a hideous waste of resources and frankly, it only appeared to frighten the hell out of Gue and co.

But.... you know, you have given me a RP idea that could interest the Imps.

edit OMG, that RP was a wince! Hell man, we only did a lot of that to stop Gue and co from GM'ing us off the Galaxy. I'm glad that need is long gone.

AGH!!!! Lion, you blinded me! That RP was terrible! Funny, but terrible!

[Dolash]

I see what you're all saying, but I just wanted a feel for the warfleets around here so I could tell how much the Azguards would have to build to be competitve from an IC perspective. In the Cold War, it was all about how much the other guy had, so how much you need to equal him. Sort of the same thing here, if I only field a half-dozen frigates and a hundred fighters, the last thing I want to do is go trapiesing all around the Empire's sectors shouting "Come out and fight!"

You said it's all up to how much you feel you can field, well how much do other factions feel they could field?

[Marcus Telcontar]

The simple answer is that there is no rule. That's the point - it's up to common sense and logic.

The various Imp factions in reality would get stomped on if the NR gathered it's resources and went for them - but the fact is, the NR cant do that, they can only spare a fraction of their fleets for wars and battles. There's trade, sector defence, patrols, downtime, repairs etc - and cost.

An Imp faction OTOH, cant have a large attackign fleet as the current Imp positions are too small to be able to create a large fleet able to attack and capture territory.

So really in the end, if your using common sense and fair play, no one can really bring more than a good handful of assorted warships into a battle.

Rivin - question. How does a crime syndicate afford an SD of any type as well as the manpower and technical supprt that it will need? I thought we explicitly banned private fleets from obtaining and using super-cruiser class ships because it would just about impossible for anyone other than a government to fund, support and man one? IIRC, a SD needs several thousand crewers and that one hell of a lot of crewers to feed, pay and maintain. Let alone the addition of support supply chains.

[Morgan Evanar]

AFAIK a Star Destroyer's crew is 15k? I'd have to check again.

[Darth Viscera]

Victory-class Star Destroyer's crew complement is 4,800.

[Morgan Evanar]

^thanks. Impstar = ? I was probably thinking SSD.

[Mandalore]

ISD is ~ 15000 with skeleton crew of around 5-8000

[Arya Ravenwing]

Originally posted by Marcus Elessar
Rivin - question. How does a crime syndicate afford an SD of any type as well as the manpower and technical supprt that it will need? I thought we explicitly banned private fleets from obtaining and using super-cruiser class ships because it would just about impossible for anyone other than a government to fund, support and man one? IIRC, a SD needs several thousand crewers and that one hell of a lot of crewers to feed, pay and maintain. Let alone the addition of support supply chains.


Simply put - this situation is impossible and goes against the common sense rule.

[Sith Ahnk]

I thought they said the ship was supported by TSO?

In any case, I've tried to eliminate the bean counting aspect at TRF several times. Part of the problem, I believe, is that our galaxy is just not mature enough to handle it... and if I'm the most mature of the lot, you know we're in trouble.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Originally posted by Dark Lord Rivin
That Rivin is the leader of a nice sized crime sindicate. What you may not know is that Rivin has a small fleet that belongs to the sindicate.
Nope the ships are not supported by TSO.

And if Rivin is the sole member of the syndicate... (unique person playing a character) this makes the fleet highly doubtful, but Morg and Visc would have a better idea about that than me.

[Morgan Evanar]

De'Ville is correct.

[Darth Viscera]

Imperial Star Destroyers have a crew complement of 37,000

[Lion El' Jonson]

It might be possible to own a Dreadnought, or maybe the VicStar...but doubtful.

Everybody remember Gue? Yes, I know you try to forget, so accept my apologies. He managed to complain for months about the "Clean Slate" rules, because they wouldn't allow him to keep his SSD...or any of his Imperators. This is essentially the same thing.

On the other hand, Booster Terrik and his smuggling group operated an Imperator II-class Star Destroyer, the Errant Venture, formerly a vessel known as the Virulence under the command of Ysanne Isard. He was able to successfully operate the Errant Venture as a mobile smuggler's base, where the Destroyer's promenade had been converted into a trading post. However, it must be noted that the Errant Venture maintained less than 15% of her normal firepower, and nearly every system was in need of maintenance or repair.

Even Prince Xizor-era Black Sun could only maintain small groups of frigates and a few wings of starfighters. It's unlikely that a one-person group could operated all of those vessels, especially the dreadnought: If I remember correctly, even a refitted dreadnought required ~10,000-15,000 men to be effective.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Errant Venture was not used as a fighting platform, but more of a trading and operations base for a large amount of smugglers liek Karrde, which gives the possible cash flows needed to maintain the base as an orbital docking platform. To even think a SD or cruiser type craft can be in any type of fighting condition, or that a criminal organisation would allow the type of fat and waste that huge ships require to be in such fighting condition, defies common sense. You would have to be in the Hutt class of organisations and simply, they couldnt really do it either. Or would want to. An SD or dreadnaught is nto the type of target you want to present if your a criminal cartel.

It's like Al Quadia gaining and running a battleship. Maybe they could, but it's about as useful as a sock for a condom.

Lion, you are correct a Dreddie needed 12,000 crewers. A Katana style Dreddie took 2000. Even a katana style dreddie would be a serious problem for anything less than a Hutt type organisation to run. Bel Garm Ibis had 6, but his was a military organistion and he admitted it was pretty hard to do it.

[Lion El' Jonson]

Like Marcus said, I seem to recall a quote Bel Iblis made during the Caamasi Crisis, when he was trying to convince Booster to lend him the Errant Venture.

Garm Bel Iblis: "The Mon Cals have lined up behind the Bothans. If fighting breaks out, what is one of the first things the Mon Cals will do?"

Booster Terrik: "They'll move against smugglers."

Garm Bel Iblis: "That's right. Owning a Star Destroyer, how high up do you think you are on their list?"

Well, it went something along those lines. The point is, being a crime cartel and owning a large capital ship is the equivalent of hanging a giant neon sign wherever you go, advertising the fact that you leave illicit dealings behind...or leaving a giant fingerprint at the scene of a crime.

[imported_Reshmar]

some larger Pirate groups managed to maintain Battlehorns. and I believed one or two strike cruisers found there way into criminal hands. but a dread or bigger. that is vary rare. and even then they would more then likely never use them. or only use them as bases.

[Dark Lord Rivin]

The SD in Rivin's fleet hardly ever moves. It runs on a crew of droids, and thugs, and is used most of the time as just a deep space bace of opperations. If an enemy ever found it Rivin would be in deep bantha poodo, but the fact that he almost never moves it from deep space, most people would never know it exisited.

I never said that it would be quality work that was done of the ships, and I know it's not. The ship would likely fall apart if it ever got in combat, mainly because he has the crew to move it, or use the weapons, not both. Heck it might even fall apart if it was moved. At least if it moved he would likely have to spend months to repair the damage starting the thing's sublight would cause.

So bacicly Reshmar is right. I'm not going to use this SD or Dreadnaught to attack anybody, They are mostly going to be used as places there his smaller ships can refuel without having to go into a spaceport, but ether way ships crewed by street thugs and droids can't do much.

As for the number of characters in the sinidacte. There is Rivin, Talzen, and Thug. I know I play all of them, But it will be expanding. I'm thinking of adding Dark Daylight and Lord Sith Homer to the list after they have proven themselves better RPers than what there are.