Israel=Hamas

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well Israel again made another stupid decision they killed the founder of Hamas
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=1312&e=1&u=/ap/20040323/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_32

I don't see anything good coming out of this Hamas is goint to strike back in avengence they might up the death toll or something. They also said they blame the U.S. and might strike against the U.S. Man I wish Sharon would be kicked from power the man is a war criminal and a crook, I wouldn't be sorry if Hamas assasinated the man.

[Ryan Pode]

It was stupid to use open force. If you wanted to get rid of him, make it look like an accident. Though, now with the retaliation occuring, Sharon could use this as a reason to wipe them all out.

[imported_Eve]

You know (and I know this sounds incredibly pesimistic) but I think this is one more thing leading to WW3. That, Spain, 9/11, Iraqi Freedom, Taiwan, and what ever else is coming.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I hope not. I am not sure about Taiwan at times it worries me and at others I figure China wouldn't even bother its like swatting a fly to them.

[Morgan Evanar]

Eh I don't really worry about Taiwan much. I think the Chinese would rather have our money.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

>>cue Escape from L.A. - Snake Plissken Solution

[Darth Vader]

You act like they wouldn't attack before this :rolleyes

[Darth Viscera]

what "they" are you referring to?

[Jedieb]

I can't believe Sharon did this. Make no mistake, this wasn't an innocent parapalegic in a whell chair that was assasinated, but I can't see anything but more bloodshed coming from this. I've always supported Israel, but this madness has got to stop. They're going to have to withdraw and make some concessions. The Palestinians need to have a state. These next few days are going to be horrible.

[Pierce Tondry]

I say we nuke that entire area out of existence. Two wrongs make a right, eh?

*sigh*

[Sanis Prent]

They're killing instigators instead of the guys stuck in the middle. I say keep doing this.

[Pierce Tondry]

If you kill the person who kills thousands, yes, you save lives.

Economically speaking, there is a point at which the killing is simply too much for anything positive to come from it.

[Jedi Master Carr]

But they made the guy into a Mayrtr, personally I think it is a bad thing and it makes them no better morally speaking.

[Sanis Prent]

Be pragmatic. The guy is a leadership figure and is a major driving force in getting other idiots to blow themselves up. Kill the guy. Kudos.

[Morgan Evanar]

The whole situation is completely screwed up on both sides, but when you look at what this guy has motivated, I have to say I think he got what was coming.

[Pierce Tondry]

The entire problem is that not everyone will see things that way. Especially not his followers.

We (the people of this forum) agree terrorists and suicide bombers are nutjobs, but they still have an effect on people's lives and this guy who died has/had an effect on the terrorists' lives. That it's a domino effect is sad and regrettable, but still true.

[Charley]

So then somebody should go kill Sharon, and bring some hot parity action over there. They're both insane, and both getting lots of people killed. I don't mind seeing the string-pullers get the axe in this little drama bomb.

[Jedieb]

Israel is adamant that it is going after the leadership of Hamas. Whether the leaders be of Hamas's 'military' or 'political' wing, they see no distinction between the two. They can try to kill them all, but I don't see how that will stop new leaders from emerging. I've said it before, I'll say it again, every time I try to work through ANY kind of solution I come up with a blank.

In the next few years the situation could improve with the creation of a Palestinian state. But in the long run, Israel will always have a bullseye on itself. There are factions in that region that simply will NEVER tolerate a Jewish state.

[Ryan Pode]

A lot of Arab nations don't want a Palestinian state either. They'd rather have the Palestinians be a large thorn in the Israeli side. Then both a Palestinian and Israeli State.

[Jedi Master Carr]

One day I fear some Hamas nut will take a nuke briefcase and blow up Tel Avi, I think that day might be coming.

[Dae Jinn]

I think the West should just leave them all the hell alone and if they end up killing each other, fine. Spare us from having them come and attack us.

Yes, the guy was a terrorist -- but they killed a half-blind old man who was confined to a wheel-chair as he was coming out of a mosque with MISSILES! Okay, I can see taking the guy out, he is a "bad" guy after all, but that's over-kill.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by Ryan Pode
A lot of Arab nations don't want a Palestinian state either. They'd rather have the Palestinians be a large thorn in the Israeli side. Then both a Palestinian and Israeli State.

What.

Get off the Internet. Arab states would love nothing better than to see Israel swept into the ocean.

The problem with Hamas and Israel is it's a never ending cycle of bombing / revenge. The cycle just keeps on going.... and probably will while sharon is in power. He's realyl almost as bad as Hamas leaders himself. search around on Google, he's not a good man in any stretch of the word. I'd go as far to say he's a war criminal.

[Morgan Evanar]

I wouldn't disagree with you, really, but like everyone has said, its a dirty cycle where you was the laundry in mud.

[Jedi Master Carr]

He is a crook too, I can't believe he survived that bribery scandal, in this country if the president did something like that he be impeached.

[Sanis Prent]

Makes me miss Yitzhak Rabin an awful lot.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Rubin was a great man.

[Ryan Pode]

Get off the Internet. Arab states would love nothing better than to see Israel swept into the ocean.

They'd also like the Palestines to go with them.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by Ryan Pode
They'd also like the Palestines to go with them.

Please engage brain before posting or provide proof for this nonsense

[Ryan Pode]

Have you ever read a history book about Pre-1914 Middle East? Obviously not. The Palestines were--while under the pathetic rule of Ottoman Turks--generally were considered to be the powerhouse amongst Muslim tribes. They controlled the holy lands of Jerusulum, and they were very fierce fighters. World War I happens and Britain gets the Middle East after the fall of the Ottoman Empire due in part to the Treaty of Versailles. Who give the Palestinian land to the Jews.

Now, play in the Muslim grude-holding element and boom. Shiites + Suunis + Eygptians (and anyone else) hate Palestinians and Jews. Since its been proven numerous times Islamic force to rid the world of Jews fails, and you don't want the Palestines ever to get a country back, the best thing to do is let your enemies fight it out.

Its like in Risk, when there are three people on Australia, and both are building huge armies, you let them duke it out and then you go and ravage the weaker party.

[Marcus Telcontar]

You didnt prove or back up your point.

[Ryan Pode]

My point was the Arabs don't want Palestine a state nor Israel a state but since they can't control either, they'd rather have Palestine do what its doing to Israel. Then take Israel.

[Sanis Prent]

He's correct. There's not much love lost between the Palestinians and other tribes, such as the Wahabbist Arabs. Don't know if it remotely compares to the situation in Israel, but they definitely aren't on best of terms.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think it might be like the Kurds who are hated by the other Arabs as well.

[Darth Viscera]

^^^ (a friendly nitpick, if you please)

kurds aren't arabs

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I know that, I was just saying they are hated by the other Muslims in the regions probably similar to the Palestians.

[Sanis Prent]

Suprise suprise, but everyone hates everyone over there.

Turks, Armenians, Sunnis, Shiites, Wahabbists, Kurds, Arabs, Palestinians, etc

I :lol when somebody thinks that this can be solved by removing Israel from the map

[Ryan Pode]

The problem could be solve if you gave everything to Israel.

[Sanis Prent]

no

[Jedi Master Carr]

Give everything what the whole Middle East?? Yeah that seems fair. Actually their has only been peace in the region when a huge Empire ruled it (The Romans, the Ottamns, and the British) still empires just don't work anymore so that idea is out.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by Ryan Pode
The problem could be solve if you gave everything to Israel.


Think before you post.

[JediBoricua]

Visc, whic are the tribes of persian decent?

I know the Sunis are, who else? The kurds?

[Darth Viscera]

It's not so much tribes as various ethnic groups, none of whom can control the volume or tone of their voices. Sunni would not qualify as an ethnic group. There are Persians, Azeri, Gilaki, Mazandarani, Kurds, Arabs, Lur, Balochi, Turkmen. If you're thinking of religions there are Shi'as, Sunnis, Zoroastrians, Jews, Christians and the Baha'i.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Are there any Zoroastrians left? I thought they were long gone.

[Darth Viscera]

They just like to pretend they're long gone for when the mullahs come around with M-16s looking to stir up some hot hot religious zealotry. My mom's boyfriend is a Zorostrian from Esfahan, and boy is he loud.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I bet they are like Druids in England, people have turned it in recent years. I don't think there were any after the Middle Ages, the Muslims got made them convert or killed them.

[JediBoricua]

It's not so much tribes as various ethnic groups, none of whom can control the volume or tone of their voices

:lol

[Ryan Pode]

Looks like Sharon may be gone soon. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30842-2004Mar28.html

[Jedi Master Carr]

Good the man is a crook he sounds like the Israel version of Nixon.

[Darth Viscera]

that's an insult to Nixon

[Ka' el Darcverse]

I know Pierce was being sarcastic, but if you want to end the problem something similar to what he said is what would have to be done. Just like with the Fascists and the Japanese during WWII, you have to crush the spirit of a group of people to keep them from going to war and the only way to crush the spirit of a group of people is to kill off a large portion of their population. I.E. the surrender after the saturation bombings of Germany and the nuking of Japan. You have to show them that their entire population can and will be wiped out if they do not quit fighting. That's why the Roman's were so effective early on. The destroyed any resistance. Just look at Carthage.

This isn't to say I condone it, but I don't forsee anything causing peace in the middle east short of genocide or (for us Christians) the second coming. Which is a sad, sad thought.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Nixon was a crook plain and simple. The man would have been impeached if he had stayed in office. To me he was the most corrupt president in U.S history (The Harding administration might have been more corrupt but I think a lot of his problems was letting his buddies run the show). The Republican Party today never even says his name, it is a dirty word for them and they have pretty much ignored his presidency from what I know. Things have gotten worse with the taps that have come out which show Nixon as an anti-semite (he basically said in one tape the Jews were no good and should be gotten rid of or something like that).

[Darth Viscera]

I don't think it's as bad as all that. He had a very successful funeral.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Is that sarcaism?? I am not sure what his funeral has to do with anything. I know since his death, republicans don't even like to bring up his name they never mention him when it comes to republican presidents.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Is my other post showing up? Everytime I check back it says DV was the last person to post, not sure if that is just a bug or what.

[Darth Viscera]

yes, it's showing up.

don't discount nixon too much. Had Nixon been president in 1975, I doubt that Saigon would have fallen to the communists that year (it probably would have fallen under the Carter administration). We were in a tight spot in Vietnam, and his efforts to honorably extricate us from what must be regarded as an almost untenable position should be commended.

I mentioned his funeral because it was there that he was honored as a statesman and complimented by Clinton.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Saigon fell because the US troops left. Nixon pulled them out, although 4 years later than he said he would. And nobody is going to say bad stuff at the funeral, and that was also before those tapes which showed him as a bigot.

[Darth Viscera]

Saigon fell because North Vietnam violated the 1/27/73 Paris Peace Accords and began its final invasion on 12/13/74, attacking Phuoc Long province. Gerald Ford responded with diplomatic protests. Had Nixon still been in office, he would have taken actions to defend the peace treaty (just like he did in late 1972) and responded with Operation Linebacker III or something, and North Vietnam would have been bombed back into the stone age before they got anywhere near Saigon.

[Jedi Master Carr]

No way would that have happen the U.S citizens were agains the war at that point and nobody wanted any more. Nixon wouldn't haven't done it. Saigon would have still fell anyway eventually the U.S. forces were doing badly in the war.

[Darth Viscera]

Well, we wouldn't have had to redeploy troops there or anything. 121 B-52s and naval gunfire from the 7th fleet would have been enough to augment the South Vietnamese army and stop any NVA advance in its tracks just like it did in late 1972. It's a fact that in April 1973, after the last troops had withdrawn from Vietnam, Nixon gave a secret pledge to President Thieu in California to respond militarily if North Vietnam violated the peace treaty. And just how confident are you that U.S. citizens wouldn't have supported upholding the peace treaty? Nixon won in 1972 by the biggest landslide in history, remember.

[Jedi Master Carr]

yeah because he brought the boys home days before the elections and that was Mcgovern's only position. I am sorry today Nixon is despised the Republican party has disavowed him, and he is concidered by historians one of the most corrupt presidents ever.

[Darth Viscera]

well if he'd been allowed to complete his term, he might have been considered by historians to have been the man who saved South Vietnam and spared a bunch of people from having to become refugees. Regardless of the content of his personal tapes, I'm convinced that Nixon was benevolent, not malevolent.

[Ka' el Darcverse]

Nixon was no more corrupt nor less corrupt than about 90% of our Presidents. The difference was he got caught. It has been documented that he did not order the Watergate Break-in, but when he found out he tried to cover it up. That doesn't make it any less illegal but compared to some of our other presidents it doesn't seem that bad either.

Washington was an adulterer, as was Jeffereson and just about every other president to ever be elected to office. Grant was a drunk, Jackson slaughtered more Native American's that I can imagine. Lincoln, blatantly performed acts that were unconstitutional and when congress and Federal judges tried to stop him, he told them he'd have the Army throw them in jail too. Kennedy was connected to the mob and the only reason he was seen as such a great president is because he died before he had a chance to screw up. The list goes on and on. Nixon was just the most remembered because he was going to be removed from office when he resigned.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Most of our president were not "corrupt" First how can you call adultery or being drunk corruption? Lincoln did what he did because it was in the midst of a civil war, he was trying to save the country, I wouldn't call that corruption. Corruption is stealing money from the govt. like the Tea Pot Dome Scandal did or stealing records from the Watergate hotel like Nixon did. That is corruption and it has been rare that it has happened, there has only been three administrations that has been called out for this and this is even looking at the historical record. Sure politicians aren't perfect but that is because humans aren't.

[Sean Piett]

To me, my rights of due process and habeas corpus are more important than party rivalries.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Party Rivalries??? I am not sure what you mean. The reason he suspended Habeas corpus was because of the Civil war it was splitting the country apart, Lincoln felt, "a Divided Nation cannot stand." He did it because he was worried Maryland, West Virginia, Missouri and some other border states would leave the union.