Canucks/Avs

[Lilaena De'Ville]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1754963 Bertuzzi should be suspended for a long long time for that hit on Moore. It was reprehensible, and watching ESPN it's making me sick to see the hit again.

Anyone else with hockey thoughts? With all the trades at the last minute the Avs are building a pretty good team with a great chance at the Cup, IMO.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
Anyone else with hockey thoughts? With all the trades at the last minute the Avs are building a pretty good team with a great chance at the Cup, IMO.


I think that's part of the problem with the NHL. The trading deadline is so late in the season, teams can stack their rosters for a playoff run and not incure massive salary hits. It's like hiring mercenaries.

Of course, the NHL is going to be lucky to avoid bankruptcy within the next 5-10 years.


As for the hit... yeah, it was vicious. The premeditated nature of some of the hits leveled against other players in the NHL is what disturbs me. Fans constantly defend it by saying things such as, "The NFL has just as many devistating hits and risk for injury." That may be true, but in the NFL, there is rarely an instance in which a hit is intended to physically injure a player. In the NHL, this type of thing happens all the time, and it's not only condoned, it's encouraged by the lack of action from the league office to control in-game fighting and "payback" hits. But, that's what sells tickets, and with the league in such dire financial straights, they won't take away what brings fans to the games.



The Stanley Cup... I have no clue. I don't even know who's going to be in the playoffs at this point.

[DarthHERA]

Cheap shots like that are always wrong and dangerous.

Moore did a similar thing to Nasland a few weeks ago from which this incident boiled from.

Im choked that Moores action was not even called by the officiators at the time. Bad officiating leads to things getting out of control. The Refs need to take their own game up a notch.


Avs are building a pretty good team with a great chance at the Cup, IMO.

The Avs have always had a good team.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Good point. My wording was awkward, and I didn't mean to say that I didn't think they had a good team to start with.

And if Moore's action before had been called by the referees, then we probably wouldn't have players trying to settle the score themselves. The problem is that Moore already had been in a fight that night, sort of a score-settling fight, and then the cheap shot later...it's just too much. Broken bones in his neck, facial lacerations and concussion...totally uncalled for.

[DarthHERA]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
And if Moore's action before had been called by the referees, then we probably wouldn't have players trying to settle the score themselves.

Exactly my point. There would not be a lingering feeling of the unanswered shot, making the thing more than it was.


The problem is that Moore already had been in a fight that night, sort of a score-settling fight, and then the cheap shot later...it's just too much. Broken bones in his neck, facial lacerations and concussion...totally uncalled for

I think Moore should have gone a round with Bertuzzi earlier - that would have been more "score-settling" from a Canucks point of view.

However, this isnt how it played out and now it is this bad, bad scenario.

[darth_mcbain]

Moores hit on Naslund was debatable. Yeah, it was kind of a cheap shot, but it was nothing like the flagrant hit he took last night.

I really wanted to watch that game last night, because I had a few players in my fantasy hockey league going in it, but I missed it... Of all the games to miss...

Bertuzzi should definitely be suspended for the rest of the season though - something that flagrant cannot go unpunished by the league.

As for the cup, I hope the Avs go all the way, though I don't know if it will happen. They have a great team (even without these trades), but they haven't been playing their best lately. Hopefully Forsberg will come off his injury soon - he will definitely increase their chances.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I just got more information on Moore's hit on Naslund, and it *was* a clean hit, and that's why it wasn't called. It's unfortunate that it resulted in Naslund being knocked unconscious, but it was not an over look on the part of the refs.

[JMK]

The Moore hit on Naslund was borderline. The answer you get will vary from person to person. Moore did have his elbows up a little, but Naslund was bent over low. If I recall correctly Moore may also have left his feet a little, which a total no-no.
But what Bertuzzi did was premeditated and brutal. Make no mistake, by this time tomorrow, Bertuzzi will know his fate, and I'm positive he will miss the rest of the regular season and likely a chunk of the playoffs too, maybe all of the playoffs for as long as his team is in. A massive blow to his team, which to this point was considered to be a contender to win the Cup. This is a pretty even year with the balance of power shifting from the West to the East. Colorado and Detroit will be the front runners in the West while it's almost a crapshoot in the East. The Flyers, Leafs, Senators, Bruins, Lightning and even the Canadiens if they stay hot can all make a serious Cup run.

[Ishan Shade]

Senators are looking good this year...Flyers seem iffy to me but my BlueJackets aren't crap so I can't say anything :p

[JMK]

Aren't crap???
I'm amazed that they're still doing relatively well attendance-wise, but they have to start winning games....

[Ishan Shade]

There are some really dedicated fans in Columbus, but your right....

[darth_mcbain]

Wow - Moore has a broken neck from that whole incident!!!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news?slug=ap-bertuzzispunch&prov=ap&type=lgns

This is just a shame to see something so blatently aggressive and that Moore really got hurt. Bertuzzi has to take some serious heat for this!

[JMK]

And he will for sure. In fact we will know very soon what his punishment will be.

As for Moore and the Avs, I partially blame Tony Granato for this. He KNEW that the Canucks were coming after him sooner or later. With that game completely out of reach with the Avalanche leading 9-2, her had to know that something was going to happen sooner than later. Granato himself played for many years in the NHL and wasn't the nicest guy on the ice either, he had to see this coming. IMO he should have taken Moore off the ice and sat him for the rest of the game. Moore was the target, not Sakic or Hejduk or Tanguay. I'm not condoning what Bertuzzi did, but a part of me thinks this could have been avoided other than Bertuzzi not having a total brain cramp. This is just a totally ugly situation. What's going to happen the next time these 2 teams play?

[darth_mcbain]

I don't think they meet up again in the regular season - if they meet up in the playoffs it will be something to see...

[JMK]

It would be very interesting indeed. Would they just play and keep their eyes on the prize, or would there be fireworks every night?

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I would hope that after this, both teams would be on their best behavior. And by best, I mean, fair fights. ;)

[JMK]

The meeting has been adjourned, but no decision has been made. Go figure.

[darth_mcbain]

It looks like the decision will be rendered tomorrow morning. Interesting also that not only is the League looking into this, but the police are looking into it as well.

[JMK]

The police also investigated the Marty McSorley / Donald Brashear incident from a couple years ago. McSorley was given 18 months probation for his act. I wonder how that precedent will apply to Bertuzzi. In McSorley's case he used a weapon (his stick), Bertuzzi didn't, but McSorley's assault wasn't premeditated whereas Bertuzzi's was.

[DarthHERA]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
I just got more information on Moore's hit on Naslund, and it *was* a clean hit, and that's why it wasn't called. It's unfortunate that it resulted in Naslund being knocked unconscious, but it was not an over look on the part of the refs.

No it wasnt.
IIRC Naslund was not even a part of the play and was looking the other way. That does not make a clean hit. He was sent to hospital with a concussion and missed 3 games.



The Moore hit on Naslund was borderline. The answer you get will vary from person to person. Moore did have his elbows up a little, but Naslund was bent over low. If I recall correctly Moore may also have left his feet a little, which a total no-no.

This is fairer assessment, imo.



It looks like the decision will be rendered tomorrow morning. Interesting also that not only is the League looking into this, but the police are looking into it as well.

Apparently they will give a press-release tomorrow a.m. as to the decision and then they are holding a press conference an hour later. This tells me that it bodes ill for Bertuzzi. I think the league will send a very strong message on this issue. And rightly so. This kind of thing is out of hand.


IMO he should have taken Moore off the ice and sat him for the rest of the game

Hindsight is 20-20, but that is a very good point.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Originally posted by DarthHERA
No it wasnt.
IIRC Naslund was not even a part of the play and was looking the other way. That does not make a clean hit. He was sent to hospital with a concussion and missed 3 games.


He was heading up the middle of the ice going for the puck, IIRC. :) Moore is a rookie, even if it was a questionable hit this does not in any way excuse what happened to him the other night.

Bertuzzi is a huge man, he hit him from behind, jumped on him, etc. Even if the hit on Naslund was a little out of line with a very unfortunate result, Bertuzzi knew better, and now he's going to pay.

There was nothing about Moore's hit that justifies anything that has happened to him.

[DarthHERA]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
Moore is a rookie, even if it was a questionable hit this does not in any way excuse what happened to him the other night.




I never once said it did. Nor did anyone else in this thread. We all get that.

My point is that cheap shots only lead to bad things, be it injuries or bad blood between players/teams, and officiators shouldn't let them go. Moores hit was not called and it led to things building up to bigger than they should have.

Having said that, Bertuzzi is well respected here in Vancouver, and Im sure he'd like to have that moment back again. I feel bad for him (and of course, for Moore). This was not excusable or defendable. No doubt, he knows that better than anyone.

[Tear]

Alright /Canadian Hockey Man on

*Drops his gloves and wades into thread*

I already got into this in the Shadowfaene but ill take it on again..

The Avs and Canucks naturally are rivals. Top teams in the same division when they have games they are gonna be heated if theres debts to repay or not.

The hit on Naslund by Moore shouldnt have happened. Period. If you've played hockey or followed it for a long time you know Rookies do not hit the top players Or Captains for that matter. You think anyone touched Gretzky? If any did you know what would happen to them shortly after. Simple. Other top players deal with their rivals. If your a rookie and hit the top guy from another team. Then the other team will begin hitting your top guys. Guess who gets yelled at in the locker room after the game? Thats the way the NHL has dealt with things like this for a long time. Recently i dont think its been happening.

Bertuzzi had to set an example. The problem was that it went sour. Bertuzzi didnt jump on him :p he was hanging on to him when he fell and then one of the Colorado guys jumped on him and then any Canuck nearby jumped on the Av guy. This is probably what hurt moore the most..thats alotta weight to bare when your unconcious and just slammed your head into the ice.

Bertuzzi isnt that type of guy to take that sort of cheap shot. Things where probably said and from the way things where going tempers flared. It was something that accidently went to far. Yeah he punched him in the head but do you think Bertuzzi was thinking,

"yeah ill punch him once then hell fall and smash his face on the ice then get dog piled on and have his neck broken."

In all honest the punch was meant as more of a lesson Bertuzzi wanted to fight him. So the punch was justified what happened afterwards wasnt and no one wanted that to happen in the first place. No one who plays hockey ever wants to see that happen.

If it sounds like im defending Bertuzzi i am:p Yeah the punch to the back of the head was bad and he should get suspended for the rest of the season. The fall and everything after wasnt intentional. (I was watching the game) But a criminal investigation? or suspended indefinitly? No..

If anyone saw his press conferance last night the poor guy was in tears and was sincerely sorry for Moore and his family and to the fans and kids who were watching the game. Hes a good player and doesnt go out of his way to play a dirty game.

And the Mcsorely hit was pre meditated. Brashier fought him earlier in the game and owned him. Mcsorely wanted a rematch and Brashier wouldnt indulge him so Mcsorely lost his temper and hit him with his stick from behind. The situations are simliar but different in reasoning.

Mcsorely was angry for losing and was out to get even. ( and yes id defend Mcsorely just the same , i doubt he wanted Brashier to be knocked unconcious and slam his head on the ice. The guy just wanted another fight)

Bertuzzi wanted to show the rookie the ropes that you dont touch the made guys. Especially Nasland, a captain and Bertuzzi's friend.

You americans can take back your reporters who are tramping over Vancouver and knocking on Bertuzzi's door at home for an interview too.

[JMK]

Stop making the rest of us Canadian hockey fans look dumb.


Rookies do not hit the top players Or Captains for that matter. You think anyone touched Gretzky? You must have missed the '93 playoffs. Gretzky got hit. Often by Montreal in the finals without much payback, if any.
We shouldn't be thinking 'oh poor Bertuzzi, he was crying, he's really sorry.' Tough. If he had been allowed to land his second punch that Nikolishin prevented, Moore would be either paralyzed or dead right now. Moore may not play hockey again, that's where the thinking has to be. Whether he's a rookie or not, he's allowed to hit whoever he wants. If he takes on a top player like Naslund, he knows that he could be causing big trouble. Think back earlier in the year. Jordin Tootoo of Nashville pretty much assaulted Jarome Iginla from behind and proceded to have a long, drawn out fight with him. A raw rookie vs an MVP runner up. No one on Calgary saw it fit to try and tear Tootoo's head off. There's no justifying what Bertuzzi did and his indefinite suspension is just punishment for now. When he gets his real sentence in an hour or 2 from now, I'm sure that will be deserved as well.

[JMK]

It's an open-ended suspension for Bertuzzi. Meaning the rest of this year, however it may last for the Canucks, and possibly into next season as well. So if the Canucks lose in the first round of the playoffs, it will most likely carry over to next year as well. I guess that's a just punishment, but I also think it's the NHL being sissies again and not being able to give a firm, definitive answer.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Bertuzzi hit Moore in the back of the head, and held onto him, pushing him over and falling on top of him and he gave him another whack on the ground to the head. Then the Colorado player jumped on Bertuzzi, and prevented him from hitting Moore again, although unfortunately this resulted in a dog pile and a line brawl.

So I'm sure the second punch while the guy was down was "accidental." :rolleyes I saw this like seventy times two days ago on ESPN, and none of it looked like an accident, except for the dogpile, maybe.

And I wish they'd given him a definitive answer as well. But oh well. This includes playoffs as well, no?

[JMK]

Yep. Playoffs too.
It's hard to say what fractured Moore's neck: the first punch, smacking his head on the ice, or at some point during the pile-on.

Want to hear ironic? They played a clip of Bertuzzi's comments after the McSorley/Brashear incident from a couple years ago and he hoped that McSorley would have been thrown out of hockey forever. I wonder if he's softened his stance since then? ;)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Yeah, I heard those comments too when they replayed them. Kinda ironic that he would have come from there and done this, years later.

[Ka' el Darcverse]

My theory has always been if there is a cheap shot that is designed to hurt someone, the player should have to sit for as long as the player he took the cheap shot on is injured and his pay for those games got to the player in question.

Bertuzzi would have thought twice if he could have been permantly kicked out of the NHL and had his salary go to Moore.

[JMK]

While that's a good idea, it can blow up in the league's face. What if Bertuzzi's punch had no effect? The act and intention is still the same, to lay a beating, to send a message to get revenge. So is the act itself what gets you the suspension, or the fact that someone gets hurt. What got Bertuzzi suspended? The act, or the result? That's what my point against that is. It was a dirty cheap shot by Bertuzzi, but if Moore had walked away unhurt, would there have been no penalty?

[Ka' el Darcverse]

sorry I should have clarified. Any cheap shot should at least have a suspension of 3 games w/o pay. Cheap shots that result in injury is what I meant. sorry for the confusion :)

[DarthHERA]

Originally posted by JMK
Stop making the rest of us Canadian hockey fans look dumb.



He's not.



The issue that needs confronting is when did it come into the NHL that guys can come onto the ice with the intention of really hurting some guy. Im not talking about the tit-for-tat score settling that has always gone on - you take out the star player in a deliberate "questionable" hit, then you are going to answer to the teams defenceman. Two guys have a fight, mostly swinging and missing or glancing punches of each others helmets or shoulder pads. But the level of "payback" has escalated to where guys think they can forget all rules and can assult someone with a stick or with their fist. Bertuzzi probably felt he had a right to answer the hit on Naslund. That has always been the "unofficial rule". Thats what he was doing, but used excessive force and terrible judgement.

The players have to get the message that that simply is not hockey.

[JMK]

So now what about the instigator rule? This type of 'frontier justice' has been the norm rather than the exception in the past few years, though there are instances over time that were horrible.
If the instigator rule is canned, will we see more garbage like this, or would fighting become the way players police themselves again?

[Sith Ahnk]

I can't believe anyone justified the hit on Naslund as clean.

Naslund was slipping. His head was down, he was falling anyway. Moore had to finish his check, sure, as Naslund did pass up the puck, but there was no reason to jump, lay out your elbow, and smoke the guy in the side of the head.

Bertuzzi had no justifcation for what he did, but Moore's hit was not clean in the slightest.

[Tear]

Thanks Hera

Im not just a fan but I've played the sport since i was a wee man. Theres always a code to follow in every sport. Thats just one of them in hockey. Yeah hits happen on top players. Say Naslund goes for the puck against the boards and gets checked. No biggy..it happens, and Naslund knew it was probably going to when he went for the puck.

the situation differs though if that rookie player jumped or continued to skate into the check for the purpose of nailing Naslund harder then necessary. There is a line and Moore did cross it when he nailed Naslund. Incase you didnt know Naslund could have just as easily been knocked out of the game from the same hit, he was in the hospital for a.. week? or two I think im not that sure. Moore didnt even get a penalty. You cant expect the other team to take that lightly? Oh some rookie just nailed our captain and top goal scorer in a bad hit. Oh well lets move on.

The hit on Moore was a dirty one, obviously. From behind ..I dont know what video feed you were watching Lil but Bertuzzi didnt push Moore down..Moore was falling from the first punch. Check his momentum the first hit knocked him cold and his skates started to float. If you look at Moore shirt its stretched back in Bertuzzi's hand. It wouldnt be if he was pushin em:p

I doubt Bertuzzi will get suspended next season. The NHL probably left it open just to cover their butts incase anyone had a problem with just the one season, the league could just add..well maybe second season too.


Whether he's a rookie or not, he's allowed to hit whoever he wants. If he takes on a top player like Naslund, he knows that he could be causing big trouble. Think back earlier in the year. Jordin Tootoo of Nashville pretty much assaulted Jarome Iginla from behind and proceded to have a long, drawn out fight with him.

Yeah he can hit anyone he wants. Doesnt mean he can hit top star players the way he did Naslund. Do you know why he could be causing big trouble? That was sort of my point in my above post..because you dont hit high end players like that or youll get the other team hitting yours in the same way. Then youll get your butt chewed out by those same top stars and the couch will make sure you find yourself sittin on the bench unless you want a bullzeye on your back.

Jordin Tootoo and Jarome Iginla, I didnt see that fight. But ..it was a fight? Not a hard hit from out of nowhere. So its different and If i have to explain why I dont think you have a right to be calling me an idiot.

Im not justifying a dirty hit but I do think Moore had a hit coming to him. Bertuzzi shouldnt have gone about it like he did but I guess in his mind one dirty hit deserved another.

I didnt see a second punch but Lil seems to have..even though you seem to have saw the av holding him back so..I dunno.


Moore may not play hockey again, Doctors say he will make a full recovery.

Im not saying awh poor Bertuzzi. Im just saying he was sincerely sorry for what happened. The first season suspension and the playoff suspension is warranted.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I don't *seem* to have seen the second punch, I did see it, several dozen times. Just because I'm a girl doesn't mean I'm automatically dumb.

Bertuzzi might have had his hand wrapped up in Moore's jersey (preparation for a second punch might I add), and he might not have *pushed* Moore, but he made Moore fall over from the first punch. The difference is semantics. He didn't need to fall on top of him, he could certainly have let go of the jersey and avoided the pile up. But he wanted to make Moore pay...more.

I pray the doctors are right, and that Moore does make a full recovery. That doesn't mean he'll be playing hockey next year, however. Broken necks and backs take a long time to get back to full strength from. If he's out for the next year and a half, I doubt he'll be back playing pro-hockey, although I of course hope for the best.

[DarthHERA]

Originally posted by JMK
So now what about the instigator rule? This type of 'frontier justice' has been the norm rather than the exception in the past few years, though there are instances over time that were horrible.
If the instigator rule is canned, will we see more garbage like this, or would fighting become the way players police themselves again?

I dont know, but any idiot knows what bogus hits are. If you do it, you should get called on it and right snappy, too. With 3 refs on the ice there is no way this should be the issue that it is.


I don't *seem* to have seen the second punch, I did see it, several dozen times. Just because I'm a girl doesn't mean I'm automatically dumb.

LD, where did that come from??


Bertuzzi might have had his hand wrapped up in Moore's jersey (preparation for a second punch might I add), and he might not have *pushed* Moore, but he made Moore fall over from the first punch. The difference is semantics. He didn't need to fall on top of him, he could certainly have let go of the jersey and avoided the pile up.

Play hockey much?

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Actually yeah.

And i apologize for snapping, I felt that I was being made fun of and this has been a doozy of a day. I can't express my displeasure to people at work, however.

[DarthHERA]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
Actually yeah.



Well, then you'd know that stopping momentumn or changing tack like that like you expect Bertuzzi to have done is not so easy. Especially when you are moving like those guys were. Not to mention he'd just slugged Moore and his balance was not level, and Moore was dropping beneath him. I think you should be a bit more realistic here.

Obviously you are outraged at the hit. So are a lot of people.

But you sound to me like you'd like an ounce of blood and a pound of flesh from Bertuzzi yourself, whereas Moore did no wrong at all. To me, your perspective is skewered.

But no one is making fun of you. We are just talking hockey.

[Tear]

Originally posted by DarthHERA
But you sound to me like you'd like an ounce of blood and a pound of flesh from Bertuzzi yourself, whereas Moore did no wrong at all. To me, your perspective is skewered.

But no one is making fun of you. We are just talking hockey.

I think its partly the media cramming images down our throats every chance they get. So people just see Bertuzzi hitting Moore and not the whole picture.


I don't *seem* to have seen the second punch, I did see it, several dozen times. Just because I'm a girl doesn't mean I'm automatically dumb.

Er? I wasnt making fun or talking down to ya Lil, im sorry if you got that impression. I was just showing how two people saw two different things and i didnt see either so i couldnt say. Whered the girl thing come from:p ? :hug sorry you had a bad day

[JMK]

That was sort of my point in my above post..because you dont hit high end players like that or youll get the other team hitting yours in the same way. Then youll get your butt chewed out by those same top stars and the couch will make sure you find yourself sittin on the bench unless you want a bullzeye on your back.

•I don't remember anyone going after Scott Stevens for taking
out Lindros, probably more than once.

•I don't remember anyone going after Stevens for drilling Paul Kariya in the finals last year.

•I don't remember anyone taking Gary Suter's head off when he put Gretzky out for months.

•I don't think Rangers players are looking to destroy Jason Doig for his recent hit on Lindros.

Stars have been taken out before without being injured in return. Granted none of the examples I gave invoved rookies, but that's not the point at all.The best way the Canucks could have gotten revenge on Moore was to beat the Avs 9-2 instead of losing by that score.

Bertuzzi is paid to score goals and be an impact player, not to potentially ruin guys lives. That's what a guy like Brad May is there for. Jaarko Ruutuu as well. The fact that Moore is doing ok is NOT the point. It could have been much worse and that's the problem. If he wanted to make a statement and fight Moore face to face, fine. But he didn't have to clobber him from behind. As for Moore's hit on Naslund, like I said, it was borderline. It wasn't outright dirty, it wasn't exactly squeaky clean. But Naslund was the first one to say that he had his head too low and should have been looking around him. At least Moore didn't blindside him.

I agree that there is a code in the NHL that if you're a rookie, you shouldn't go after the top players because you'll get yourself in trouble, and possibly some of your team's better stars. That doesn't mean that Moore should stand still and let Naslund school them. He had a chance to make a hit and he took it. This is hardly the first time a rookie has hit a star player.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Originally posted by DarthHERA

Obviously you are outraged at the hit. So are a lot of people.

But you sound to me like you'd like an ounce of blood and a pound of flesh from Bertuzzi yourself, whereas Moore did no wrong at all. To me, your perspective is skewered.

On the contrary, I would never want something like that to happen to another person, and I'm unsure what I said that sounded as though I did. I suppose I'm just saying what other people have said,
The first season suspension and the playoff suspension is warranted. and that the hit was awful.

[Sith Ahnk]

Originally posted by JMK
•I don't remember...

See the recent Flyer/Senators games?

[JMK]

Yeah I watched that game, what about it?
If you're referring to Martin Havlat's cross check to Recchi's face, yeah that deserved more than 2 games IMO. But the Flyers didn't go and take out Alfredsson or Hossa. Everyone squared off with a partner and fought one on one.
Philly GM Bob Clarke later after that game called the Senators coach a gutless puke and said that he wouldn't be able to hide guys like Hossa and Alfredsson the next time they play. And thanks to this suspension, it looks like what could have been another very ugly situation has been seriously deterred. If they all drop their gloves and fight, that's one thing, but hopefully no more of this bush league b.s. will happen anymore.

[Tear]

I Missed that game :(

[JMK]

It was wild stuff.

[Sith Ahnk]

Originally posted by JMK
Philly GM Bob Clarke later after that game called the Senators coach a gutless puke and said that he wouldn't be able to hide guys like Hossa and Alfredsson the next time they play.

They'll meet in the playoffs, and we'll see what happens.

[JMK]

Not to mention that the Sens and Flyers already have a heated playoff history.

[DarthHERA]

Originally posted by JMK Bertuzzi is paid to score goals and be an impact player, not to potentially ruin guys lives. That's what a guy like Brad May is there for. Jaarko Ruutuu as well.



Im sure you dont mean the "ruin guys lives" part, but you kind of contradict yourself by saying that.

And everyone knows Bertuzzi is not technically a defenseman, but he is one of the biggest,strongest wingers out there. Of course he is going to take on that role if it suits him.




At least Moore didn't blindside him.

Naslund was looking down and away - did not see Moore coming. Thats pretty close to blind-siding someone.



That doesn't mean that Moore should stand still and let Naslund school them. He had a chance to make a hit and he took it.

Sure, of course. Hockey is a game of hitting and checking. But players - and this is my point - need to be more judicious about how they go about this. Sure, Moores hit on Naslund was not to be compared with how Todd Bertuzzi went about it. But - had Moore been a bigger guy, the result for Naslund could have been more serious that it already was.



and that the hit was awful.

I think we kind of had that point covered from the get go.
But go ahead and say it again if you want. :rolleyes

[DarthHERA]

Oh, forgot to mention about the actual punishment.

The suspension - deserved.

But Im not sure if it is enough to get the message to the players that this kind of caper has to stop.

I think a personal fine should be involved or something. More than just the lost wages.

The players really have to feel the weight of consequences for this.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

....does the eyerolling count as being made fun of? I'm confused. :)

[DarthHERA]

*the eyerolling denotes sarcasm*

We all get that it was a terrible hit, and we all know you think it was an awful hit cause you keep saying so.

Just letting you know we know and we can discuss other issues too :)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

ok cool!

[JMK]

Naslund was looking down and away - did not see Moore coming. Thats pretty close to blind-siding someone.

Wrong. Moore went straight at Naslund. Not from the side, not from behind. Naslund has already said he should have had his head up. It was not a blindside hit. We can debate whether or not Moore left his feet, or had his elbows up, but he did not blindside him in the least. Blindsiding implies that the person being hit had no chance of defending himself because the checker came from out of nowhere. If Naslund had his head up, he would have seen Moore coming.


Of course he is going to take on that role if it suits him.

What role are you talking about?

[Sith Ahnk]

Originally posted by JMK
Wrong. Moore went straight at Naslund.

Completely innacurate. He was moving perpindicular to him at the time. He went straight at him, from his perspective, but Naslund did not see him until the very last second as his focus was straight... a different straight from Steve Moore.

[JMK]

Ok now, repeat after me:
Naslund is on record as saying that he should have had his head up. If he had, he would have seen Moore coming.

The last time I checked, or bothered to inquire, Naslund did not have a neck with 360° swivel capability.
The first thing you're taught in hockey is to play with your head up, and not to stare at the puck on your stick, or admire your pass, you're going to get wallpapered, and Naslund did. Doesn't necessarily make Moore's hit dirty.

[Sith Ahnk]

He.Was.Slipping.

He should have had his head up sure. But peoeple slip, it happens. He might blame himself for having his head down but the point is that Moore saw he had his head down and he took advantage of that. It was a cheap shot and dirty,

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Considering that every hockey authority you could quote says that Moores hit was not dirty (I'm looking for the quotes) then I don't see the point in arguing it. :)

[Tear]

Most players after they get hit or something happens to them usually say something like..

I should have moved faster. I should have saw him coming? I should have had my head up. It doesnt discount the fact that the hit was dirty. If it was a clean hit do you think there would have been such a big deal in the first place?

[Lilaena De'Ville]

http://www.canoe.ca/Slam040218/nhl_van-cp.html


The hit itself wasn't dirty, Naslund said. But what bothered the Canucks star is the attitude Moore demonstrated.

If it hadn't been a rookie hitting him do you think there would have been such a big deal made out of it by the Canucks?

edit: I also think it's hilarious when people say "he was looking to hit him with his head down" like we know what people are thinking now. :) We don't know that Bertuzzi was trying to - no wait, hitting from behind with no chance of retaliaiton...yeah Bertuzzi was trying to hurt Moore. It is not apparent that Moore was trying to hurt Naslund.

[imported_Eve]

Look, I know nada about hockey, but this clean hit business...

There is hockey, and then there is taking a swing at someone. One is hockey, the other is not. One is considered good sport, the other is not.

[DarthHERA]

Originally posted by JMK

What role are you talking about?

I was refering to where you said that Bertuzzi is paid to score goals and be an impact player and the defensive stuff should be left to May or Ruutu. Bert is a big guy, and will use that when he feels he wants or needs to.




Naslund was looking down and away - did not see Moore coming. Thats pretty close to blind-siding someone.

Nazzy was not looking in Moore's direction, he did not see Steve Moore coming. I stand by the above opinion.


Considering that every hockey authority you could quote says that Moores hit was not dirty (I'm looking for the quotes) then I don't see the point in arguing it

So by authority, does that include Crawford, the Canuck Coach who almost popped three veins in his neck screaming at the Officiator to do something about the non-call and his man down on the ice?

Or perhaps "Crow", the Canuck players, the Vancouver fans and everyone except yourself in this thread all consider the hit questionable (or at best, borderline) are all imagining things?

Your faith in the unerring judgement of linesmen/refs is quite something.

However - I think Ive stated my viewpoint of Moores hit on Naslund clearly enough and wont be commenting again on it.



There is hockey, and then there is taking a swing at someone. One is hockey, the other is not. One is considered good sport, the other is not.

Exactly, and the players, (as Bertuzzi's action so eloquently exemplifies) really need to get the message on that.

[JMK]

I was refering to where you said that Bertuzzi is paid to score goals and be an impact player and the defensive stuff should be left to May or Ruutu. Bert is a big guy, and will use that when he feels he wants or needs to.

Todd Bertuzzi became a premier player in the league by scoring goals and having an impact on the outcome of most games. His $6.8 million dollar salary says so. He has a responsibility to his teammates and to his fans to keep his head in the game and not get himself suspended for any length of time. Yeah he has the size and strength to take care of business, but the goon stuff should be left to guys like May and Ruutuu. Bertuzzi blew it.

And saying a player will play a certain way because he 'wants' to is false. Any player who is out there for himself does not play in the NHL for very long. Everyone plays a team game and doesn't switch styles because he feels like it. If a game is physical, so be it. Bertuzzi can get physical with anyone, but headhunting like he did regardless of the reason in inexcusable. I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest otherwise.

[Tear]

Have you seen the Video of Naslund getting hit by Moore?

Looks pretty hurtful to me..



Todd Bertuzzi became a premier player in the league by scoring goals and having an impact on the outcome of most games

True. But do you know why? Hes a big guy..Very few people can stop him going to the net. Hes a physical force that can score goals. Sometimes it means screening


He has a responsibility to his teammates and to his fans to keep his head in the game and not get himself suspended for any length of time.

He does. I think thats what he was doing. Naslund is his good friend of Bertuzzi. If you best friend was nearly taken out by some goon what would you do? Let some other guy handle it or take it a little more personally. Bertuzzi could do it so he did. People arent robots in this game so sometimes they think with their emotions and not their brains.



And saying a player will play a certain way because he 'wants' to is false. Any player who is out there for himself does not play in the NHL for very long. Everyone plays a team game and doesn't switch styles because he feels like it.[quote]

Every player plays their Style. So in essence they are playing Their way. Naslunds a sniper he plays that way because thats what hes good at. Ruutu is good at ruffling peoples feathers it probably comes naturally to him so thats what the coach as him do. Look at May im pretty sure he was playing the game the way he wanted and was doing pretty good at it too. Bertuzzi is a dominating force because of the way he plays. It didnt change that night hes gotten into scuffles before hes not stranger to it.

[quote]If a game is physical, so be it. Bertuzzi can get physical with anyone, but headhunting like he did regardless of the reason in inexcusable. I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest otherwise.

I think everyone agree's the hit was messy and Bertuzzi was wrong to go the route he did but Moore did have A hit coming to him and its sad that the one that got him was a badone.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I'm confused as to why we're arguing about this again...I mean, no one thinks that Moore's hit on Naslund justifies Bertuzzi's hit on Moore, right?

[Tear]

Sorry about the Edit i didnt see the fourth page before i posted :p


I mean, no one thinks that Moore's hit on Naslund justifies Bertuzzi's hit on Moore, right?

Well a hit was deserved on moore. Everyone agrees the a punch to the head from behind was a dirty way to go but what i think what some of us are arguing is that Moore did have something coming to him. So a punch was deserved what happened when he fell wasnt..

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Moore was already called out in a fight with someone in the Canucks game. Can't remember the player's name. So that should have evened the score. Square off, one on one, fight fair and get it over with and go on with the game.

Saying that a 'hit' was deserved is like something a mobster would say. :p

[JMK]

Naslund is his good friend of Bertuzzi. If you best friend was nearly taken out by some goon what would you do? Let some other guy handle it or take it a little more personally.
I completely understand that. I've been playing hockey for 15 years now. I've had friends get hit and hurt from it. But most coaches (the one who want to win) will tell you the best revenge is to win the game.

One of the other issues here is that the Avs and Canucks already played one game before this one. It ended in a 5-5 tie but there was no dirty stuff in that game. Why? Because Bertuzzi kept his head in the game and played. When it was obvious this game was out of hand, he completely got away from the realm of hockey and stepped into the world of assault.


Moore was already called out in a fight with someone in the Canucks game. Can't remember the player's name. So that should have evened the score. Square off, one on one, fight fair and get it over with and go on with the game.

Absolutely true. I believe he fought Matt Cooke earlier in the game and was probably harassed for the entire night. He answered the call, took his lumps and the score should have been settled then and there. Bertuzzi felt the need to get revenge for his friend, when according to the hockey code, it was already taken.


True. But do you know why? Hes a big guy..Very few people can stop him going to the net. Hes a physical force that can score goals. Sometimes it means screening .

Of course that's true. 100%. Playing physical, grinding in the corners, going to the net, just playing like the big man that he is is COMPLETELY separate from the bush league frontier justice he administered. The Canuck team revolved around Bertuzzi not because of his ability to cheap shot people, but because of his ability to use his size and skill to up the score for his team.

[DarthHERA]

Originally posted by JMK


If a game is physical, so be it. Bertuzzi can get physical with anyone,

Pretty much what I was trying to say, that Bertuzzi is a big guy, and if he needs to get physical, he will. He's not just going to leave it up to May or another guy.


but headhunting like he did regardless of the reason in inexcusable. I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest otherwise

Am I being unclear in my posts, or are people deliberately misunderstanding what Im saying? Not once have I suggested what Bertuzzi did was "ok". Please stop responding to me as if I have, its getting annoying.

[JMK]

He's not just going to leave it up to May or another guy. He SHOULD leave the goon stuff to May and others who are paid to be goons. Or how about not having any goons at all.

[Tear]

Any other time id agree with you but his friend got nailed...so..if he wanted to take care of business himself i would say go for it.

Any other time on the ice you would see hes an upstanding good player this was just one mistake. Lets move on.