Liasons with Dark Siders

[James Prent]

I've been reading a few threads and I've noticed something unusual. At least, I hope it's unusual.

Quay Na Rakai is/has married a Dark Sider? And now she's requesting leave of GJO.

I appeal to the Council to NOT LET HER GO! She should be put under protective custody, to protect her from herself. She's requesting leave, you are Jedi Masters, most of you, and someone should be able to sense there is something odd about her.

:) Nothing against you personally, Quay, just that you're now a Dark Sider in my book, and nothing will convince me differently. There is no such thing as fence sitting with the Force, and you've started down a very dangerous, dark road.

As far as the Lost Jedi allowing and knowing about this liason is even MORE strange, because they're supposed to be a more militant group of Jedi, fighting against the Dark Siders. BUT...one of their own is now married to a dark sider? Are they going to demand that she kills her husband?

I can't wait to find out. :)

[Estelle Russard]

Originally posted by James Prent


Quay Na Rakai is/has married a Dark Sider? And now she's requesting leave of GJO.

I appeal to the Council to NOT LET HER GO! She should be put under protective custody, to protect her from herself. She's requesting leave, you are Jedi Masters, most of you, and someone should be able to sense there is something odd about her.




Actually, it is my opinion that Quay should be expelled from the Order -- not constrained to stay.

Marrying a darksider is completely contrary to a Jedi. WTH?? It poses not only a safety risk to herself, but a security risk to the Order.

She should be removed from the premises immediately!! jk.

But seriously, she should have all access revoked and be stripped from her title of a Jedi.

[Navaria Tarkin]

I have one question.. when the heck did this happen??? :lol

[Shanaria Fabool]

This is the first thread I can find with them as a couple...

http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33496&perpage=20

[James Prent]

Well, she did it secretly IC, so of course no one knows.

As far as expulsion instead of retaining her, you'd just release a security risk to the outside? If it's discovered by the council that she's intimate with a Dark sider, you'd have to consider the fact that she might become a bigger security risk on the outside, being able to pass information about GJO, whether intentionally or unintentionally, to the Dark Siders who would want to injure the Order.

[Morgan Evanar]

I'd expell her.

[Ace McCloud]

Her and her husband got involved when he wasnt a dark sider. However then he was bit by a vampire...and is what he is now.

[Pierce Tondry]

I rather think the angle on Quay's side is one of charity and love. Aside from the GJO not really knowing what's up yet, it seems to me that a Jedi Master would have some leeway in making a decision on this given its circumstances.

[spada]

I agree I think that if she came up asking to leave and she had a relationship with a dark jedi, I would be concerned. I would not just say, "get the F*** outta here." Thats practically throwing a jedi to the dark side. I would show a bit more compassion or concern for the situation. You dont want to hold her down, but you also dont want to just boot her without knowing the circumstances.

[Dae Jinn]

BUT...one of their own is now married to a dark sider? Are they going to demand that she kills her husband?


Er...they didn't do that when I had my first RP character hook up with a Jedi.

As for keeping her here, why? I'd think they'd want her out.

And, I was a darksider and a Lost Jedi at the same time...just wasn't very good at being either one :lol

[Figrin D'an]

Why do I have a funny feeling that I'm going to be modifying the FAQ again soon?


:rolleyes

[Rognan Dar]

Originally posted by Figrin D'an
Why do I have a funny feeling that I'm going to be modifying the FAQ again soon?


:rolleyes

Becaussssse....people tend to do stange things?

But really, I dont think that this is all what it apears to be. Maybe she was trying to change him back, and a resolt of that, or arangment, was for them to get married? You cant always look at something and expect the worse. I know that it is easyer too, but I would have to here from Quay about it and what she was thinking/planning before I condem her.

And something comes to mind, and this could be a bad thing for me. I think that in on thread with her she told Rog about Anthony (or whoever the guy is). But I cant remember if she said he was a sith or not. I think she did. And then it would fall on me to report this info...which I didn't because I wasn't thinking about it...

[Zacharia Dawnstrider]

The RP has been planned for a great deal of time and a lot of care was put into play when doing so.

A lot does not meet the eye when you take a quick glance at it, so please, don't judge Quay just because of a few assumptions. Granted, what are you supposed to think with this bit of information?

That's the point.

It's supposed to provoke thought and curiosity. In the end, the results might surprise even the writers behind the characters. It's more of a planned experiment, if that makes any sense. :)

In the end, it will. It all takes time and a bit of cooperation from other outside parties.

[Dasquian Belargic]

Originally posted by James Prent.
If it's discovered by the council that she's intimate with a Dark sider, you'd have to consider the fact that she might become a bigger security risk on the outside, being able to pass information about GJO, whether intentionally or unintentionally, to the Dark Siders who would want to injure the Order.

[James Prent]

Originally posted by Dae Jinn
Er...they didn't do that when I had my first RP character hook up with a Jedi.

Then they were stupid.

*makes plans to seduce and viciously use an unsuspecting Jedi as her Dark Side character*

;)

[Pierce Tondry]

Been there, done that. :)

[Leten Snat]

So Why does it seem that people want to blackball Quay when the only thing she has done wrong is Love a darksider? Not only that but she has gotten the darksider to love her. Since Love is not a normale emotion for darsiders to embrace, that would meen that She is on the right track to converting Him to the lightside.

There are no rules saying that it is wrong for a Jedi to love a Darksider. The Jedi Are protectors of ALL life, and last I checked Darksiders (for the most part) are still alive! The other Jedi have no right to dictate how she is aloud to feal for others. And since she has done nothing wrong IC or OOC, I see no reason to punish her.

[Dasquian Belargic]

Since Love is not a normale emotion for darsiders to embrace, that would meen that She is on the right track to converting Him to the lightside.

I wouldn't say love is the route to the lightside by any means. darksiders can love one another. Love is considered the path to the darkside in canon SW. the fact is, darksiders contradict everything a jedi stands for. loving one would mean supporting them and all that they stand for, ie. deception, violence, anger, etc. Quay being married to this darksider is no different to her being married to Darth Vader.

also, anyone in the thread who has information on the matter and is witholding it - falcon I'm looking at you - please consider the fact that you are lying to the council, your peers. not setting a very good example.

[Morgan Evanar]

I'm sorry, having her around is a far larger security risk than kicking her out. If she's an official part of the order, the fact of the matter is that Quay can probably come and go as she pleases without drawing too much scrutiny.

Expell her, and its pretty much known what happend and why she is no longer welcome.

[Dae Jinn]

Originally posted by James Prent
Then they were stupid.


Okay, then who was on the council 3 years ago? :lol

[James Prent]

Originally posted by Pierce Tondry
Been there, done that. :)
Damn.

:p Yes if you need anyone to testify how being married to a dark sider does not work, just ask Pierce. :) Of course, he wasn't a Jedi when they pledged their lives to each other, and she was knocked up at the time.

[Ryla Relvinian]

Originally posted by Leten Snat
So Why does it seem that people want to blackball Quay when the only thing she has done wrong is Love a darksider? Not only that but she has gotten the darksider to love her. Since Love is not a normale emotion for darsiders to embrace, that would meen that She is on the right track to converting Him to the lightside.

There are no rules saying that it is wrong for a Jedi to love a Darksider. The Jedi Are protectors of ALL life, and last I checked Darksiders (for the most part) are still alive! The other Jedi have no right to dictate how she is aloud to feal for others. And since she has done nothing wrong IC or OOC, I see no reason to punish her.

Um, that wasn't really the point, but thanks for playing. :)

The point is this: For whatever reason, people are ignoring the fact that
There is no such thing as fence sitting with the Force... And trying to make excuses for the fact that they want to have their characters be the one special exception to the rule... Folks, I'm not coming down on y'all personally, but Jedi and Sith fundamentally do not mix.

Yes, yes, I hear you saying, "It's love!" And that's wonderful, don't get me wrong. But this is the way the Council acts, sorry, but it's our jobs to look after matters of security. Having a Jedi married to a Sith is a matter of security, for the reasons discussed above. Love, to a Jedi, can be like the force, both wonderful and terrible at the same time, and can so easily be used to manipulate. Think about that when you play your characters. :)

[James Prent]

Amen sistah.

[Pierce Tondry]

One idea that I may or may not write up is the idea of fence-sitting leading to mental insanity.

[Estelle Russard]

No-one's blackballing her, Leten.

If one makes the committment to be a Jedi, then that is what it is.
A committment. And the Order needs to have some kind of standard. (This is all from an In Character stance, for those who seem to want to get upset about this)

When a person marries someone, they join their life to theirs. What on earth would a Jedi want to be married to a darksider for?
And why would the Order tolerate it? Is the Order a joke?
Come on people, there are consequences for peoples actions, and I think something as monumental as marrying a darksider--after having made that committment to follow the Jedi Code--should have consequences, not be mamby-pambied by those who think good intentions are going to stave off the permeation of the darkside.

Now, if you were married, and the partner went Vader on you, well thats a different scenario. But if a person whos partner did that wanted to remain together as husband and wife that casts a very dubious light on that Jedi imo. I (Estelle) would not trust them one iota.

*A question for James, Are you suggesting we keep Quay against her will here at the order? That seems worse to me than expelling her. She would have to be put under guard 24/7 if we made her stay.

And Im not sorry if this sounds narrowminded - really...we should have some kind of narrowness. Being a Jedi is not a free ride.

ooc: I have nothing against Quay, and this storyline. but I do think the Order should be stern in their response to it.

:)

[James Prent]

*A question for James, Are you suggesting we keep Quay against her will here at the order? That seems worse to me than expelling her. She would have to be put under guard 24/7 if we made her stay. The thought crossed my mind, but it would take too much NPC man power, and RPing wise, would make Quay's RPing existance very boring.

I now agree with Morgan. Although I still don't know how that would help the security risk to the Order. Maybe change all the locks once she leaves? ;)

[Figrin D'an]

As a padawan, her IC access to vital information was minimal to non-existent. Expulsion from the Order would not be a tremendous security risk. Access codes are changed/removed to prevent unauthorized reentry. That's about the extent of it.

[Morgan Evanar]

Beyond the physical risk, this eliminates a lot of windows for manipulation. It would be a widely known fact among the Jedi that Quay had violated one of the key tennats, and that she wasn't to be trusted because she may or may not be acting of her own volition.

[Pierce Tondry]

She would also probably be passed on to the NR as somebody to keep an eye on.

[Ka' el Darcverse]

As far as I know you are free to leave the Jedi whenever you please, to simply walk away from the life. Being a Jedi does not mean being a slave, you do the work because it is what you believe if you don't believe in it then you leave.

And as far as keeping an eye on her, I think that should prolly go to the Jedi rather than the NR. But I agree with Pierce that she should be watched. IC that is.

OOC* I don't really care but she shouldnt' be a Jedi if she's shacking with a Darksider.

[Estelle Russard]

Originally posted by Ka' el Darcverse

OOC* I don't really care but she shouldnt' be a Jedi if she's shacking with a Darksider.

^^ That, my friends, is Quote of the Week for me :lol

[Figrin D'an]

** Plays "Love Shack" by the B-52's. **

[Ka' el Darcverse]

I need a new CT "Frowns at Shacking with Darksiders"

[James Prent]

lmao your CT is great :)

[Estelle Russard]

:lol perfect

[Ka' el Darcverse]

danke!

[AmazonBabe]

Folks, I'm not coming down on y'all personally, but Jedi and Sith fundamentally do not mix.


One idea that I may or may not write up is the idea of fence-sitting leading to mental insanity.

Precisely. I mean, it's a wonder I haven't been hauled off to the funny farm yet what with all these voices in my head, the two pertinent ones being a Jedi and a Sith. Sometimes I feel my mental stability wavering...

Wait... I have mental stability? :p


In all seriousness, I don't think shunning her would be a good thing, but keeping her around is definitely bad. Once she and this dark Sider become seriously familiar with each other, they could easily see things through each other's eyes.

Yeah, 'd call that a HUGE security risk.


She would also probably be passed on to the NR as somebody to keep an eye on.

This is prob a good idea in the long run.


:lol @ the whole Love Shack thing. Priceless! :lol

[Azhure Darkstone]

My first character Saphire was a sith married to a jedi warren Azalin and nobody kicked him out. Why now? Why these people? In the end it didnt work out anyway for logical reasons and for ooc reasons too, but he had a place to fall back on. She won't if you expell her, but whatever is good for the order.

[Morgan Evanar]

Originally posted by Azhure Darkstone
My first character Saphire was a sith married to a jedi warren Azalin and nobody kicked him out. Why now? Why these people? In the end it didnt work out anyway for logical reasons and for ooc reasons too, but he had a place to fall back on. She won't if you expell her, but whatever is good for the order. Because this place is finally coming to its senses. Why has fleet roleplaying all but dissapeared?

[Figrin D'an]

This has nothing to do with OOC knowledge. This is purely an IC matter. If the Council discovers that Quay has involved with a Darksider, they have grounds to expell her. That aspect of this is not even debatable. The purpose of the Council is to make decisions such as this for what they percieve to be the greater good.




The bottom line is simply this: There are IC reprecussions to your IC actions. This holds true for everyone. If you write your character into an action that goes contrary to the Jedi Code, you need to be ready to accept the potential IC consequences of that action. This isn't a book, in which one person dictates everything that happens in the story. This is a dynamic role-play universe, and as such, the only way to ensure any sense of structure is to set certain basic principles to which every participant is bound. One of those is the aforementioned premise.


My friendly administrative advice is: Cope.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

As somebody who's witnessed first-hand exactly how much damage can be done by "blurring the lines", Anbira would be vehemently against such behavior. Compromising the principles of a Jedi isn't ever taken lightly.

[Ka' el Darcverse]

To answer your question on why it isn't being tolerated now, alot along the lines of what Morg said (sans the fleets lol) this board is constantly evolving and changing, taking on new traits and discarding with old out-dated ones.

There was a time when people were Jedi Masters and Sith Lords based on the amount of times they'd seen Phantom Menace. I don't see anyone clamoring for these days once again. Its just a settling/equilibrium of sorts. People so diametrically opposed to one anothers belief systems don't generally have stable relationships. And by opposed I mean they attempt to kill one another over them lol'

[Helenias Evenstar]

My 23 cents (Inflation adjusted)

1) It is not a crime to be going the tonk with a Darksider. Unless she has committed some sort of crime, no one has a right to detain her.

2) She has already requested to leave the Order and your talking about expulsion? Let her go then! To say expel when she wishes to leave... that's like a vengeful kick up the arse. You are Jedi you should be trying to make her see the error of her ways, if you think she is leaving for the wrong reasons.

The correct reponse is, if she is to leave - "It is with great sadness and dismay we learn of your dilliance. As you know, the Jedi can't allow this liason, but as you have chosen to leave, we no longer have any say in this matter. Go in peace"

It would also be the Jedi way that the parting be on good terms, so that there is less likeihood such a parting bites the GJO on the backside.

If you wish for the penalty for a liason with a Dark Sider to be expulsion, if such liason is found out, then so be it, after a proper trial or facing the Council. But as Quay wishes to leave, such talk is inappropriate in this situation.


But I agree with Pierce that she should be watched. IC that is.

By who and how? It would be best to keep an active contact with her, not be sneaky and underhand, but upfront and open. Why? Less likely to be offensive. More likely to find out if she is slipping away and becoming a threat. Do you really have any idea how hard it would be to track her if she decided to disappear into the Galaxy? Keep an open dialogue. It would be a Jedi way.

[Dasquian Belargic]

If you wish for the penalty for a liason with a Dark Sider to be expulsion, if such liason is found out,

She has already confessed to marrying the darksider, so that's a non-issue.


1) It is not a crime to be going the tonk with a Darksider. Unless she has committed some sort of crime, no one has a right to detain her.

The fact of the matter is, it's the duty of the Jedi to detain darksiders. They are the bad guys, we are the good guys, so it's a generally accepted fact that we don't go socializing with them. Morals and ethics class at the highest level here.

[Loki Ahmrah]

"Cats and dogs living together. Mass hysteria!"

- My views coincide with those of Dasquian et al. No need to hammer out any more details on my part.

[Morgan Evanar]

Originally posted by Helenias Evenstar
Stuff I feel that if you're going to post commentary you should read the threads/information in question more thoroughly. :|

[James Prent]

When the Cops start sleeping with the Robbers, it makes a Cop a dirty Cop, and less likely to help chase the Robbers. In fact, the Cop would most likely assist the Robber.

But all this has been said before in this thread.

[Helenias Evenstar]

The fact of the matter is, it's the duty of the Jedi to detain darksiders

Even when they have broken no law? No, you are wrong. It is not, until laws are broken. Then it is open season for ducks. Got a shotgun?


When the Cops start sleeping with the Robbers

By definition, a robber is a lawbreaker. A robber might even be a good person - it is even depicted Jedi can resort to theft or "borrowing" in TPM, where Qui Gon produces a power supply that I suspect is not entirely legal. That does not negate my point. The dark sider is not necessarily doing something wrong according to the laws the Jedi are told to uphold. Are you saying the Jedi have the right to go beyond the republic's laws and defy the principles of innocent until guilty? What if there has been no crime, or intention to commit by the dark sider?

I would equate Quay's actions to be much like a Catholic woman marrying a Islamic fundalmentalist. There is nothing illegal with this. There is nothing that can be done other than sending Quay on her way in a true Jedi manner, even as a 'catholic' family we do not like this.

[Ryla Relvinian]

Well, you would equate them that way from an OOC standpoint, but I'm not sure an IC council member would see it the same way. At least, one may, but certainly not all of them. I like your point, Helen, but I think it's not applicable to an IC course of action at the moment.

From the council's standpoint, they've seen this before, over and over, and know what will happen. The darkside is the seductive, easy path, the way that looks like the best interests of all involved. Those who walk the dark path take those who trust them with it, whether they mean to or not.

[Helenias Evenstar]

But what would be a better course of action other than the "Leave in Peace" route?

Expel? She's already going.

Detain? On what grounds can you do that?

Talk her out of it and council her on her decision, try to get her gently to see the error of her ways? Odd that option hasn't been put on the table yet. Why not?

[Pierce Tondry]

By definition, a robber is a lawbreaker. A robber might even be a good person - it is even depicted Jedi can resort to theft or "borrowing" in TPM, where Qui Gon produces a power supply that I suspect is not entirely legal.

There were much graver concerns in TPM. The movie makes that clear. This comparison doesn't hold up, really.


Talk her out of it and council her on her decision, try to get her gently to see the error of her ways? Odd that option hasn't been put on the table yet. Why not?

Your personal stance on this issue seems clear, and about what one might expect. I would caution you not to lose perspective.

First, according to her character's backstory, Quay'Na has been a Jedi from a young age. The rules for Jedi conduct should be very well known to her, as should the consequences.

Also, it makes no sense to continue to train someone in the ways of the Force when it is all too likely they may become a liability or an opponent down the line. If Quay'Na truly is interested in maintaining the path of the Jedi, she should/would adopt an ascetic life style, eschew Dark Side relationships, and work privately with a Master to help gain an understanding of the nature of the problem- in short, she would be the one seeking the counciling you mention. (Consider it similar to the acceptance of Jesus. He does not go to you, you must go to Him.)

Instead of facing those problems and drawing on the strength of other Jedi to support her during a trying time, she has chosen to leave.

[Helenias Evenstar]

n short, she would be the one seeking the counciling you mention.

Are you certain of that? I am not. It is an option not tried and it should well be.


Your personal stance on this issue seems clear, and about what one might expect. I would caution you not to lose perspective.

If it were IC, I would have told her to leave quietly. But, I am saying what I would say if it were not Quay. As the time period matches with one where I could not possibly be with her at the Council, I would have otherwise stepped in and eased the situation, explaining that I knew of this and had tried to persuade her not to act as she has. Which is true. IC, I dont want her to take the path she has.

At this point in the time line, I have 8 pound of baby to be more concerned with.


Instead of facing those problems and drawing on the strength of other Jedi to support her during a trying time, she has chosen to leave.

Maybe she should become aware of said support? Maybe, for argument's sake, she would appreciate said support and use it, if she was so inclined.

If we are going to use examples of Jesus, then I would put forth the example of the Shepherd and the lost sheep and how the Shepherd tried his all to get the lost sheep back into the fold.

[Ka' el Darcverse]

Helenias has a more than valid point, counciling is what the council should do and I think that is what they are trying to do currently as they try to get her to confess what is going on. Expulsion is a foolish idea, you can't fire someone who's quitting, detention; we have no evidence that either of them have ever committed a crime and since we have not started any type of inquisistion against darksiders I don't think we should start here without some sort of precedent. However if she still decided to go I still think that either she sould be followed or at least kept tabs on.

Of course my character wouldn't mind seeing an inquisition of Dark-siders...

[Pierce Tondry]

Heh. It's an interesting idea and one my character might go for, down the line. Right now he is still too stable to do it, tho.

Either way, the proper source of counciling for any Padawan is their Jedi Master. That's the entire point of having them in the first place. Questions the Jedi Master has trouble with, they can take to more experienced Masters, or to the Council. There is a proper chain of information.

That Quay'Na has forgone that option says there is nothing to be done from the standpoint of the Jedi. Some sheep refuse the shepherd's call.

[James Prent]

The Cop and Robber analogy was to be taken at face value (Cop = Jedi, Robber = Dark Sider) and not analyzed quite so deeply. It loses its meaning when you paint everything grey.

[Figrin D'an]

This thread has to outlived it usefulness.

Thank you for bringing the issue to the Council's attention. It is now being handled, and they will deal with it appropriately. They were elected for the very reason to make decisions such as these. Please let them do their jobs.