Question for the Supporters

[TheHolo.Net]

Should the Bakura Bazaar forum become the "Bakura Bazaar & BitTorrents" forum?

Where it can serve its initial purpose if need be and also serve as a place to trade and discuss issues pertaining to bittorrent.

[Dasquian Belargic]

Yes plz.

[ReaperFett]

lol, you do it AFTER I've stopped using BitTorrent :)

[TheHolo.Net]

For the person who answered "WTF is bittorrent?":

BitTorrent is similar to a peer to peer file sharing application. Its a method to share files over the Internet, but it really isn't p2p, its referred to as a "file swarming" application. Generally its much easier to use than any p2p program, but the life of a "torrent" file is very dependant on having what are called "seeds" or people attached to the torrent with a complete copy of the shared file or files.

Seeds are not always required if there are some full "distributed copies" among the leechers. BitTorrent downloads files in pieces and as such can spread different pieces among different leechers, eventually creating distributed copies among the leechers, meaning that among those with only part of the file(s) being shared there are enough pieces to make a whole.

If we do go ahead with this I will probably swipe some of the pertinent parts from the SA bittorrent faq for our use in explaining it fully and such.

[TheHolo.Net]

I have gone ahead and renamed the forum and posted a first torrent link.

I will post a BitTorrent FAQ as soon as I either get or am denied permission to link people here to the DefilerPak video codec pack.

[Zasz Grimm]

Gotta realize though, Ogre, we don't necessarily have a ton of seeders here at SWF. So the DL speeds won't be too terribly fast say if you, or I, or Morg creates a torrent. I'm on a sucky 20k or maybe higher upload.

So unless one of us superseeds for a long ass time or somehow get a lot of seeders, a high DL speed on BT is fucked. But I do like the idea, none-the-less. What will be allowed? Just music, images. Or are you gonna allow movies.. (( hint. hint. ))

[TheHolo.Net]

As I posted in the other thread in BB & BB:
Originally posted by SWFans.Net
I don't realy think we are in a position to do our own torrents with seeds and trackers. I'm leery of setting up a tracker here because of the attention it would draw, and the supporters with interest in it aren't in a high enough number to really do it feasibly. I'm not even sure if all of our swfans posters were involved if we would have enough people to effectively run our own tracker.So in essence what I am saying is we share public torrents and discuss issues with them and the like. I'm no fool and know good and well that we are in no position to run our own torrents. My own upload isn't high enough to effectively seed a good sized file.

[TheHolo.Net]

Okay, the SA Goons that hang out in the Rasberry Heaven DC Hub (a Goon run anime hub Defiler frequents) all say that DefilerPak is not SA only and is public, so I will now post the FAQ with links to the DefilerPak codec pack in the BB & BB forum.

[ReaperFett]

Are there going to be any restrictions? I just feel a bit uncomfortable with part-turnig SWF into a "Yay, I don't have to pay!" site.

[TheHolo.Net]

Its not like the majority of those interested in this aren't or haven't already used BitTorrent.

And.....the vast majority of torrented games and such are not neccessarily completely functional, mainly when it comes to online features.

I see it like this, if you want all of the features, or you are very pleased with your "trial" then making the purchase should feel like a responsibility to the downloader. Its a great way to know when you will be satisfied with your purchase and not be disappointed. I have paid for many products that I had previously torrented myself.

[Morgan Evanar]

I'm switching DSL providers because earthlink laid off all of it's american support staff. Fuck them.

I should have a 75k/sec upload soon.

[Master Yoghurt]

I am all for a filesharing portion of the board, as long as it is kept in the private supporter forums for discression. From a legal point of view, the forum or the poster of links can not be held responsible for the copyright infringements of individuals, but those hosting/distributing the files. Although I am sure some people may have moral reservations to this way of thinking, I believe it should be up to the individual poster wether he/she is willing to take the risks associated with it or not.

Furthermore, I really disagree with the all too common presumtion that "filesharing hurt the sales" or "downloading is theft" or similar arguments the entertainment industry loves to project. This debate is far from new, and goes back to the hysteria which was made of taperecorders and VCR's in the 80's and before that even. Despite popular belief, copying artistic works for personal use do not hurt the sales. On the contrary! If anyone wants to argue with me on that, feel free to do so :)

[TheHolo.Net]

^^^ ding ding ding, so correct! :D

Those who haven't voted on the poll should still go ahead and do so, just so we have a feel for what the majority of those who have read this thread think.

[Darth Viscera]

Maybe we should add a link to Peerguardian (and an explanation of what it does) to the FAG. Suprnova is very public.

[Dasquian Belargic]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
... Peerguardian (and an explanation of what it does) to the FAG.

lmao. freudian slip ^_^; sorry. it made me laugh.

[TheHolo.Net]

Sounds good to me, if you would/could write something up about it and post it in the FAQ thread that would be very cool, as for me I need sleep.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Dasquian Belargic
lmao. freudian slip ^_^; sorry. it made me laugh.

freudian slip? I have more than 2.55 gigabytes of lesbian porn of the highest quality, including more than 1,500+ pictures, all of which have been viewed repeatedly. I am more than satisfied with my current level of healthy obsession with the female body. So there. :p

[ReaperFett]

Originally posted by Master Yoghurt

Furthermore, I really disagree with the all too common presumtion that "filesharing hurt the sales" or "downloading is theft" or similar arguments the entertainment industry loves to project. This debate is far from new, and goes back to the hysteria which was made of taperecorders and VCR's in the 80's and before that even. Despite popular belief, copying artistic works for personal use do not hurt the sales. On the contrary! If anyone wants to argue with me on that, feel free to do so :)
Fine. You DL a game that has just come out, you have no reason to buy it. Ergo, you are taking something without paying for it.

15-0, your serve Yog ;)


I only asked about limitations after hearing about a comic sharing group, which would not allow anything which is less than a year old. This truly aids the "I'm trying them out with view to purchase" argument, while also not damaging sales as noone would wait a year. This is an attitude to be applauded IMO. Comic sales are low these days, 5-10 times lower than they were when the nineties began (Although rising once more). Expecting everyone to use some ethical guidelines or moral code is naive in many ways.

That to me is a good example of a public-ish group policing their users to aid the industry. Someone has to I suppose :)

[TheHolo.Net]

I have bought several games that I previously had torrented, but I'll let Yog go rounds with you, as he asked to.

My main reason for posting here was to say Thanks for the FAQ/peerguardian post Viscera. :D

[JMK]

I'm a classic fence sitter on this issue. If I downloaded something, such as a game or album you would think I'd have no reason to buy the real thing. In some cases I have downloaded and stuck with my pirated copy, in other cases I've decided that I do want the real thing so I went out and bought. But in general I tend to think that piracy can't ihelp sales in any way. Not everyone that downloads something will go out and buy the legit copy. Take software. I have tons of graphic/page layout programs, but I didn't pay for one of them. Am I ever going to buy the real thing on my pay? When some programs cost as much as $1000? Not on your life. I can't see any scenario in which piracy actually helps sales of anything, it can only take away. It helps with exposure and popularity, but no one cares about that, they all want their payday from sales. So I'm hanging my hat with Reaper for now until I'm swayed otherwise.

[TheHolo.Net]

A couple of fence sitters and zero no votes, hmmmm :p

[JMK]

I wasn't one of the 'I don't care voters' ;)

[ReaperFett]

I haven't voted, because I'm a mix :)

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by JMK
I wasn't one of the 'I don't care voters' ;) I know, I'm the one person who can see who voted and who voted what. ;)
Originally posted by ReaperFett
I haven't voted, because I'm a mix :) No prob, I was just razzing you guys really, thus the ":p" :)

[Darth Viscera]

any time!

[TheHolo.Net]

I am starting to consider setting up our own private tracker.....but if I do there would definately need to be some restrictions on what kinds of torrents should be posted.

At the time I am posting this I am envisioning the use of our own private BT tracker to be for smaller types of file distribution. No movies, no games, just small files, like small yet handy apps, image sets, scripts, and other miscellaneous small stuff, but I'm not sure if I should really go through with it or if there would be enough interest to support it,

My main reasons for keeping things small is to avoid piracy issues of substantial measure, and to test out what kind of loads and bandwidth it would use on our server.

Those of you who know a little about private trackers would probably like to know that the software for it that I am looking at currently is "BitGrog", a piece of software that shares and stores all its torrent info in "hashed" (unreadable) names and only accepts connections from a specified referrer. There are some other features I would like to add to it, but am unsure how (like the live torrent stats like they use at the SA forums).

But right now this is all just speculation and consideration. Other thoughts or input would be appreciated.

[Pierce Tondry]

I really don't understand what this all does; except the end result seems to be that files are shared.

As I have not used that kind of programming yet and don't understand the previous explanation, I really don't have any opinion. Ergo, I haven't voted yet.

[Silus Xilarian]

Although its not something that im sure would benefit me, its something that others want and isnt taking anything away from me. Its more content, and something that could be pretty useful. I also dont feel as though filesharing is morally wrong, for me at least.

My votes yes, you guys have fun :)

[Master Yoghurt]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
[B]Fine. You DL a game that has just come out, you have no reason to buy it. Ergo, you are taking something without paying for it.

15-0, your serve Yog ;) If I really really like a game, I'll buy it. A downloaded ISO or bin image of the CD's (or even worse, a cracked executable with reduced content) does not give me the same sense of quality as the complete commercial product with the manuals, jewel box and everything included. Especially since I am more into online games, and a game key is required in most cases to play online. When trying the game in single player mode, I have a much more accurate idea if I like the game engine than if I just had to rely on the screen shots of a magazine. Sometimes, I can't find any demos or they are simply to limited.

Game sales today is all about 3 things: reviews, marketing and good word of mouth. If I download Max Payne II and did not buy the game, so what? I would not have bought it anyway (because I like games to last longer, giving me a good value for money). However, there is a good chance some of my friends would buy it because I am raving about the graphics and the fun of play. Would I be raving about that game if I had not downloaded it? Not a chance.

Another example. Does anyone really think that the leaked demos of Doom III or Half-Life 2 reduced the interest, thus hurting the future sales? Give me a break! Those are among the most anticipated PC games ever, and the leaked demos only served to pump up the hype several notches more.

The gaming industry claim to lose billions of dollars each year due to piracy of games. Where do these figures come from? They look at the selling rate of blank CD recordable media, assuming a high percentage of these are for games (usually, this percentage is wildly exaggerated). Based on those numbers they calculate potentially how many games would fit onto those CD-R. You then have the amount of money they lost - or so they claim.

Does anyone in this forum seriously think that every time someone copies or downloads a software, that person would have otherwise bought the product? I sure as heck don't, and neither did JMK:


I have tons of graphic/page layout programs, but I didn't pay for one of them. Am I ever going to buy the real thing on my pay? When some programs cost as much as $1000? Not on your life.

IMO, this is a good example of how you cant translate the number of copies into the number of lost sales. The analysts calculates the thousands of dollars worth of software above into a direct loss when most likely, the real loss was probably closer to $0.

But lets concider it from another perspective. Of all those people who downloaded a copy of the $649 Photoshop or the $4,000 3D Max, or some of the more reasonable priced applications out there like paintshop. Is it not possible some of these got a hobby out of this? Perhaps they even became talented graphics designers? Is it not possible they one day contributed back by buying a graphics tablet, scanner or digital camera and graphics applications were bundled together? My bold claim is, some of them even started a professional career. Maybe, just maybe some money had to be invested buying licenses for applications like this during their education or at their workplace... all this because what they learned from that terrible hellish demon that is known.. (drumrolls) pirated software! How does all this work into the analysts calculations?

Now for a little story..

In the early 80's, the Commodore 64 was a very popular machine. Part of the lure was based in the vast number of copied games. Each machine owner would often have hundreds if not thousands of games. Later on came the Amiga and the Atari. Again, the easy availability and vast number of cracked/copied games in addition to the flexibility a computer provides compared to a console was important factors kids those days chose a computer instead of a nintendo for instance. Even though, for most users, the majority of games were cracked copies there were synergy effects of people buying games as supplements to those. Thus, the computer games market was born.

The PC became more powerful. With faster processors and a FPU (which is good for 3D graphics), we started to see games like Wolfenstein and Doom. Then came the 3D cards, more advanced games, and such it spiralled on. The average consumer wanted more powerful computers, thus the demand for better hardware and the computer become a major household product.

The very foundation of the software industry today, and consequently the economy of the computer hardware industry is built on piracy. For a large part, our computers would not be the entertainment centers they are today if it were not for the swapping of games and pirating through the last couple of decades. Without it, I dare say there is a good chance we would be stuck sitting with boring spreadsheets and wordprocessors, and if you were interested in something more sophistcated than minesweeper, you would probably have to go to the local arcade or purchase a console.

[ReaperFett]

If I really really like a game, I'll buy it. A downloaded ISO or bin image of the CD's (or even worse, a cracked executable with reduced content) does not give me the same sense of quality as the complete commercial product with the manuals, jewel box and everything included. Especially since I am more into online games, and a game key is required in most cases to play online. When trying the game in single player mode, I have a much more accurate idea if I like the game engine than if I just had to rely on the screen shots of a magazine. Sometimes, I can't find any demos or they are simply to limited.
But that is you, a moral person. Would you say the majority of people would take a $50 game and pay for it later?


Another example. Does anyone really think that the leaked demos of Doom III or Half-Life 2 reduced the interest, thus hurting the future sales? Give me a break! Those are among the most anticipated PC games ever, and the leaked demos only served to pump up the hype several notches more.
HL2 is a bad example, considering IIRC it got delayed thanks to the stealing. In essense, with that early release, cheats can appear.


Does anyone in this forum seriously think that every time someone copies or downloads a software, that person would have otherwise bought the product? I sure as heck don't, and neither did JMK:
True, but let us rebound that. Do you seriously think that everyone that was going to buy it who saw it free to DL would still buy the product?

I will now use an example, just like you.

Elektra. I buy the comic, and love it. Behind Ultimates and New X-Men, it is THE best comic around. But it doesn't sell well, no-sir-ee. Infact, I am sure it sells something like 26k per issue, a figure that while steady, has slid in recent months. If it hits 20k, I can all but guarentee it is dead. Heck, might not even need that. Few below it get cancelled, few others improve, Marvel decide to trim a few comics.....Elektra gone. Two thousand down might end it. So when I say it needs every damn reader it can muster, I mean it. It has gotten to the stage where I am mentioning it on boards daily to try and gather interest, and even once considered buying two issues a month, then selling the excess on eBay or give them away, causing a loss to me. Realistically, all it takes is two bad months, and it will be gone. Two months! It doesn't have the online support like Agent-X or SPider-Girl, so there's no chance of a letter campaign to save it.

You can DL it online. I know this, I have seen it. Judging from the number of seeds suprnova claimed it had, I believe 30-50 or so were using it. And they might not be the only ones. Maybe 100 DLed it, maybe 200.

Remember I was saying 2k lost could kill it? There's 10% of them. Maybe a few more start it. Maybe rather than pay that cover price once to try it, they DL it. suddenly, the number over a period of time becomes 500. 25% of the margin I spoke of.

And so, my 3rd favourite title in the whole wide world is cancelled. And while it's fate may well have been inevitable, it was quickened by people decided that rather than spend a little bit of money a month on it, they would DL it.

Bottom line? Downloaders just damaged MY enjoyment.




EDIT: A bit more.

IN THEORY, I don't have a problem with sharing. Some comics you genuinely can't find. My problem is that comics are coming online within a month or two of release. Taking my example of the comic sharers who make you wait a year. By then, the trade paperback will be out, the issue will be 12-18 issues old. There is less damage there, and I don't really think people waiting that long are what you'd call potential readers. Also, you might in theory grab some extra readers. I collect Y: The Last Man because I read #1, in theory if #1 became available people would seek out #s 2-18. But why would they when 18 is online?

[Morgan Evanar]

Yet another thread where we ignore Fett because he is wrong.

Yes, the content is available online. If someone really wants to contribute to something they will.


HL2 is a bad example, considering IIRC it got delayed thanks to the stealing. In essense, with that early release, cheats can appear. Bullshit. HL2's development was so poorly managed in the scheme of things, and there was so much content missing that the piracy is largely irrelevant. Vavle's network security was so fucking pathetic.