T3 - Oops?

[Sheyleigh Castille]

After watching T3 on dvd the other night, I'm left with one question and I figure others here might have an idea as to how James Cameron will wiggle his way out of this one....

In the first Terminator:

Kyle Reese, John Connors father, is sent back through time to protect his mother, Sarah, from the terminator sent back to kill her before she can conceive John.

When Sarah and Reese are huddled up under the bridge and she's wrapping his arm, he tells her a little about her (future) son's father, stating that he dies before the war.

Reese gets killed, Sarah's already pregnant with John and blah blah .. film ends.


Ok. .. If this is true, then explain to me how John Connor (in the future) can send his own father back through time to protect his mother if he was killed just days after impregnating Sarah.

[imported_J'ktal Anajii]

Don't worry, it'll be explained in T4: Our Robots Are Way Cooler Than Those Matrix Ones.

[ReaperFett]

I dunno if there were spoilers, I'm actually really confused right now by this whole thing :)

Reese died before the war because he dies in 198whatever. BUT, he still had to be in the war, to be sent back. So he dies, but there will be a Reese born somewhere, assuming he isn't born yet, who will grow up and survive the war for long enough in order to be sent back in time and die. So, he dies before the war and fights in the war.

[Figrin D'an]

I think I know what you are asking...

It's a temporal cycle, and it works if you think about it.


Kyle is John's father. We know this, because he impregnates Sarah Conner, and John is born 9 months later. Kyle is killed by the first Terminator shortly after he and Sarah are intimate.

So, John never knew his father. He onlys knows what Sarah has told him. So, it's true that John's father "died before the war."

However, this is where the temporal cycle comes into play. The Kyle Reese that is John's father is from the future. In a normal, untampered timeline, Kyle wouldn't have been born until about the same time John was (they were supposedly about the same age.) So, Kyle grows up, as does John, survives Judgement Day, and becomes one of John's lieutenants during the war. When the Skynet's plot to kill Sarah Conner in the past is uncovered, John decides that Kyle should be sent back to protect Sarah from the Terminator. This completes the loop.



Edit: Why are we using spoiler masks for a plot from a film that came out 20 years ago? None of this is new to T3.

[Sheyleigh Castille]

Oi, bear with me a moment. I didn't see Figrin's post ...

That is a cool explanation but it still doesn't work and let me explain why I think that.

Kyle and John may be roughly the same age; but .. if Kyle is growing up around the same time that John is, then where exactly is Kyle living? Another planet? A parallel universe?

If Kyle and John are growing up the same time as each other, that still doesn't explain how Kyle can be John's father.

Oi, I just confused myself too

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Sheyleigh Castille
Oi, bear with me a moment. I didn't see Figrin's post ...

That is a cool explanation but it still doesn't work and let me explain why I think that.

Kyle and John may be roughly the same age; but .. if Kyle is growing up around the same time that John is, then where exactly is Kyle living? Another planet? A parallel universe?

If Kyle and John are growing up the same time as each other, that still doesn't explain how Kyle can be John's father.

Oi, I just confused myself too


Sure it does. He can be growing up... wherever. It doesn't matter. What's important is that, at some point after Judgement Day, Kyle and John meet, and work together in the war against the machines.

[ReaperFett]

Originally posted by Figrin D'an

Edit: Why are we using spoiler masks for a plot from a film that came out 20 years ago? None of this is new to T3.
Because I got confused :)

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
Because I got confused :)


lol..

No prob. It's understandable.

[Jedieb]

I thought the "oops" was in reference to T3 being a colossal mistake!

It wasn't THAT bad, but it definitely was a step down from the first 2. After watching it I had the feeling I'd seen a thinly stretched piece of film with no other purpose than to set up T4: The Rise of the Governator.

Reese and Connor are born around the same time. They fight together and then John sends him back to sleep with his Mom. Kind of sick if you ask me. I think the temporal problems lie in T2. The past IS changed in T2. Judgement Day is delayed, so the time line has been changed. You could rip apart the story right there. But T3 glosses it over by saying that Judgement Day was merely postponed. But then they muddle temporal issues even further by allowing the TX to actually kill some of Connor's LT's. How can she kill them if they were meant to be his LT's? See what I mean? They should have had her attempt to kill just Katherine and then have her escape, thus preserving the timeline. Oh well, we're just really talking about Arnold blowing things up and dunking a woman in a toilet. Let's not get too technical.

[Sheyleigh Castille]

So, let me see if this makes sense .. because, seriously; this has been driving me batty. :) My fiance is sitting here next to me and he says I've been driving him batty with it too :p

Anyways ...

The Terminator, T2 and T3 films: Possibly those are John Connor's past that we're being shown first and T4 is suppose to be his present?

Ok, let's assume that is correct. I still fail to see how he can send his own father back to before the son was conceived if the father was killed in the very first film we see. ..

I don't get any of this temporal/space-time continuum sh** and I like to just think that is an OOPS that James Cameron didn't complete think out. :p

[Jedieb]

Ok, let's assume that is correct. I still fail to see how he can send his own father back to before the son was conceived if the father was killed in the very first film we see. ..

Imagine Reese is 34 when he dies in T1. He was 33 when Connor decided to send him back to knock up his own mother.. shudder... In the Terminator series time travel only works in one direction, backwards. Reese knew he could never go back forward in time. If he had survived T1 then in theory he could have actually met himself at one time. Hung out with his own bad self. Until he became 33 and got sent back in time by the sick puppy Connor so he could once again, have sex with his mother. Man, the more I think about it the more disgusted I am with the savior of the human race. No wonder the machines tried to kill us all.:x

[Figrin D'an]

Seriously, it works, from a sci-fi "assuming time travel is possible" perspective. I know it can be confusing, but there actualy is a logical flow to it. The key is to avoid thinking too linearly. That's how most people get in trouble when trying to wrap their minds around time travel concepts.

[Jedieb]

I think Zemekis did a great job handling time travel theory in the BTTF series. But if you think about it too hard, any minor change could completely throw a time line out of whack. It reminds of that old Twilight Zone episode the Simpsons lampooned in one of their Halloween episodes. Homer goes back in time, squashes one prehistoric bug, goes back to present day Springfield and finds Flanders now controls the world. CURSE YOU SPACE TIME CONTINUIM! (sp?)

[Figrin D'an]

I was bored, so here's a really simple, quick timeline I put together.


Kyle's life is a loop in time. He's born around 1984, survives Judgement Day in 2003, meets John, and eventually is sent back in time to 1984 to protect John's mother. The wrinkle in the whole thing is that, because of the time travel aspect, Kyle happens to be the one whom impregnates Sarah, and is John's father. Kyle is born, lives, and dies just like everyone else. It just so happens that he ends up dying in the past because he was sent there from the future. Hopefully, this will alleviate the confusion a little.


In actuality, the machines should have killed Kyle at some point before he is sent back in time. That way, the loop could never be completed, and John would never have been born. ;)

[Ardath Bey]

Basically John fights beside his father Kyle in the future because ... eh... Kyle was zapped back there and knocked up his ma. Which really confuses me is why Kyle was even sent back to the mother of a child (Kyle's child) who wouldn't have come to anyone's knowledge only by the required action of a time-travelling Kyle. Now why was this Connor broad ever important to the time travelling Kyle??? HMMM???

[Lilaena De'Ville]

If you think about it, the Terminatrix should have tried to kill Kyle before he could meet John. :p Thus negating the sending back in time to meet Sarah, and the conception of John in the first place. :mneh But NOOO, you have to go after the defenseless woman, not the man. :lol

[Ardath Bey]

But the point I am making is what significance did Sarah Connor hold for the future? Unless...

John Connor must have been conceived from another father not Kyle. But John is a sick puppy and says 'Hey, Kyle... watch my mother and impregnate her for me. Okay... pa!" ;)

:lol

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Originally posted by Ardath Bey
Obviously John Connor must have been conceived from another father not Kyle. what.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
what.


Exactly.

What are you babbling about?

[Ardath Bey]

Who was Sarah Connor to a post Judgement Day world? I mean that they would send Kyle back in time for her. Because John can not exist until this very timetravelling deed is done. Right???

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Ardath Bey
Who was Sarah Connor to a post Judgement Day world? I mean that they would send Kyle back in time for her. Because John can not exist until this very timetravelling deed is done. Right???


You're thinking too linearly, just like Sheyleigh.

[JMK]

I think what's so confusing about this is that John is sent back in time to around the period in which he was born. Pretend he was sent back a few years earlier, say 1970. Just because he was sent back in time and killed doesn't mean that he never will be born. It's just that the sequence of events in his life lead him back to the time when he was born, where he is killed. His life is like one of those movie clips that run on a loop. Just because after the end and reverts to the beginning, doesn't mean that the clip didn't play in the first place. :p

[Ardath Bey]

Nope I am thinking logically. What reason did the future have for targeting Sarah Connor? Don't say John Connor because he can't exist until the future sent Kyle, so that eliminate that reason. No John, no knowledge of Sarah exists for the future. She becomes just another face lost in the crowd of millions of people. There had to be another reason why the future wants to protect Sarah. What is it?

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by Ardath Bey
Nope I am thinking logically. What reason did the future have for targeting Sarah Connor? Don't say John Connor because he can't exist until the future sent Kyle, so that eliminate that reason. No John, no knowledge of Sarah exists for the future. She becomes just another face lost in the crowd of millions of people. There had to be another reason why the future wants to protect Sarah. What is it?

You are thinking wrong. Do NOT think in a linear manner. Time travel can not be thought of in a straight line.

Kyle has always existed in 1984. John connor always was his child. Always.

There is no beginning or cause. That type of loop is exactly what time travel is about and why it can be used so well in a film. Watch BTTF 2 and Doc Brown explains it well.

[JMK]

In 1984, time travel does not exist, therefore the machines can't know, no one can know that Sarah Connor will give birth to the leader of the resistance. Fast forward to the end of T3 when John and Katherine are sealed underground and begin forming the resistance and the war against the machines. At some point after that, the machines learn that John Connor is the leader, and time travel is also possible. So with that in mind, the machines figure out that if they use this technology and send a machine back to take out Sarah, they prevent John from ever being born. Once the resistance learns that the machines are sending a terminator back to kill Sarah, John sends Kyle back to protect her and inpregnate her.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Originally posted by JMK
I think what's so confusing about this is that John is sent back in time to around the period in which he was born. Pretend he was sent back a few years earlier, say 1970. Just because he was sent back in time and killed doesn't mean that he never will be born. It's just that the sequence of events in his life lead him back to the time when he was born, where he is killed. His life is like one of those movie clips that run on a loop. Just because after the end and reverts to the beginning, doesn't mean that the clip didn't play in the first place. :p
Yes, please watch 12 Monkeys and then play again. :)

[Figrin D'an]

It's "the chicken or the egg" arguement. You can't know which came first, because it's a continuous cycle.

Temporal mechanics doesn't depend upon the concept of linearity for it to function. As long as the loop is complete, there is no beginning or end, no starting point and no ending point to the events of the loop. Only if the loop is cut can there be a change to the series of events. That's why we have so much time travel in the series. Skynet wants to cut the loop. It tries to at different points (1984, kill Sarah before John is born, 1996, kill John before he becomes the future leader, 2003, make sure John dies during Judgement Day). But it fails each time, and the integrity of the loop is preserved.

[Ardath Bey]

Originally posted by JMK
In 1984, time travel does not exist, therefore the machines can't know, no one can know that Sarah Connor will give birth to the leader of the resistance. Fast forward to the end of T3 when John and Katherine are sealed underground and begin forming the resistance and the war against the machines. At some point after that, the machines learn that John Connor is the leader, and time travel is also possible. So with that in mind, the machines figure out that if they use this technology and send a machine back to take out Sarah, they prevent John from ever being born. Once the resistance learns that the machines are sending a terminator back to kill Sarah, John sends Kyle back to protect her and inpregnate her.

And who is John's father at that moment, that precise moment before he sends Kyle back?

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Ardath Bey
And who is John's father at that moment, that precise moment he sends Kyle back?

Kyle is John's father. He always was, because the event has already taken place in reference to the point at which John sends Kyle back. It's part of the loop.

[Ardath Bey]

Originally posted by Figrin D'an
Kyle is John's father. He always was, because the event has already taken place in reference to the point at which John sends Kyle back. It's part of the loop.

Wait here me out carefully. Why did they choose Sarah Connor to bear the child of their messianic time-traveller? Without that act of timetravel, what significance would this Sarah Connor bear. She becomes a random entity. Because it did have a beginning and that timetravel was not random. It was premediated. Now, remove timetravel and Kyle, now what significance does Sarah HAVE???

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by Ardath Bey
Wait here me out carefully. Why did they choose Sarah Connor to bear the child of their messianic time-traveller? Without that act of timetravel, what significance would this Sarah Connor bear. She becomes random. Because it did have a beginning and that timetravel was not random. It was premediated. Now, remove timetravel and Kyle, now what significance does Sarah HAVE???

-_-

Dont.

Think.

Linear.

It just does not work with Time travel.

[Ardath Bey]

Originally posted by Marcus Elessar
-_-

Dont.

Think.

Linear.

It just does not work with Time travel.

Yes, it does. Look you are not listening. The future had no reason to go after Sarah because John's sole existance depends on a single initiatal act of timetravel.

John is a child of timetravel foremost, secondly a child of Sarah and Kyle. No timetravel, NO JOHN CONNOR.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Ardath Bey
Wait here me out carefully. Why did they choose Sarah Connor to bear the child of their messianic time-traveller? Without that act of timetravel, what significance would this Sarah Connor bear. She becomes a random entity. Because it did have a beginning and that timetravel was not random. It was premediated. Now, remove timetravel and Kyle, now what significance does Sarah HAVE???


The significance is already there. Sarah was John's mother. It was determined she was in danger... that Skynet intended to kill her in the past... so he send Kyle back to counter Skynet's measures and protect Sarah.

Just because, from John's point of view in the future, that Kyle hadn't been sent back in time yet, doesn't mean that the events of the first film (ie. Sarah and Kyle meeting, being intimate, etc) hadn't already taken place. They did.

The Chicken or the Egg.

[Ardath Bey]

:lol

This is maddening. But John can't be conceived outside of time travel and Kyle???

And the future humans never, ever timetraveled before until -after- they gained knowledge of some woman named Sarah flipping patties at Bob's Big Boy was targeted by a terminator. Why the hell is machines targeting her for??? A random, insignificant entity no less.

[Charley]

Probably something to do with her nearly snuffing the machines out in T2?

Oh, and
<img src=http://www.sw-fans.net/photopost/data/501/1156trainwreck2.jpg>

Thanks for the migraine.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Ardath Bey
But John can't be conceived outside of time travel and Kyle???


Yeah... and? It's a complete system, functioning on the concept of a temporal loop. I can't explain it any more simply than that. There is no beginning or end, because it doesn't depend upon there being a defined beginning or end.





Why the hell is machines targeting her for??? A random, insignificant entity no less.

Sarah Connor isn't a random target. She never was. She's part of the system... the loop that is the life of John Connor. She's targeted because it's one possible way for Skynet to cut the loop, and cripple the war effort of humanity against the machines.

[JMK]

Because the sequence of events of John's life lead him to become the leader! If they can knock her off, then John will never exist. Like Figrin says, the chicken and the egg.

[Ardath Bey]

See but neither of you heard me. The machines committed the first act of timetravel in 1984. Why? To assassinate Sarah Connor. Why??? I don't know why, do you???

I mean there is no conceivable way the machines could have forknown Kyle was going to follow them. There is no way the machines could have forknown Kyle would have had sex with Sarah. There is no way they could have forknown Kyle and Sarah's act of love would conceive their destruction. Now I ask you again, why are the machines chasing Sarah Connor in 1984? Isn't the movie beating itself to the punch? It was the first ever act of time travel by both man and machine. Only the machine went first and which makes me wonder what it is pursuing. Because there is absolutely nothing there .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................. until the Kyle arrives after Arnold. Arnold is chasing nothing.

[Jedi Master Carr]

You see you just explained why Time Travel is not possible :p I know the whole thing is mind bending and gives you migranes if you think about it too long.

[Marcus Telcontar]

ee but neither of you heard me. The machines committed the first act of timetravel in 1984. Why? To assassinate Sarah Connor. Why??? I don't know why, do you???

Everyone has heard you and explained it. Not our fault your still thinking linear and not in a circle :p

[Ardath Bey]

:lol Carr

Arnold is chasing the wind and has no reason to be there. Because the Sarah can't have any consequence on the future -flipside- and the future can't have any consequence on Sarah ...




until the very instant Kyle's feet touch down in 1984. There are no other existing variables.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Ardath Bey
See but neither of you heard me. The machines committed the first act of timetravel in 1984. Why? To assassinate Sarah Connor. Why??? I don't know why, do you???

I mean there is no conceivable way the machines could have forknown Kyle was going to follow them. There is no way the machines could have forknown Kyle would have had sex with Sarah. There is no way they could have forknown Kyle and Sarah's act of love would conceive their destruction. Now I ask you again, why are the machines chasing Sarah Connor in 1984? Isn't the movie beating itself to the punch? It was the first ever act of time travel by both man and machine. Only the machine went first and which makes me wonder what it is pursuing. Because there is absolutely nothing there .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................. until the Kyle arrives after Arnold. Arnold is chasing nothing.


We hear you, and understand you, just fine. You're trying to say that whole thing is a paradox, and that there is no motive for the events of the film to take place until Kyle makes the jump back to 1984 and makes sure Sarah becomes pregnant.

And the point several of us are trying to make is that the entire series of events, in all of the films, is ONE BIG CONTINUOUS LOOP. It's not a linear series of events, and it doesn't need to be.

The machines send the first Terminator back in time to 1984.
Why? To kill Sarah Connor.
Why? Because Sarah is the mother John Connor, the leader of the human resistance, and if they kill her before John is born, he'll never exist.

And your problem is "How do the machines know this, because John can't be born until Kyle goes back in time and gets Sarah pregnant."

The answer is what we've been saying all along. To the machines in the future, that series of events already took place. Sarah got pregnant and had John back in 1984. John Connor becomes the leader of the human resistance. If he is killed before he can become that leader, the timeline will be changed, and the machines chances of winning the war go up significantly. Sure, Skynet doesn't know that Kyle is really John's father, or that Kyle was going to be sent back in time to stop the Terminator. Otherwise, Skynet would have targetted Kyle before he makes the jump back in time.


It's like I said in a previous post. Time isn't necessarily linear. There is no beginning or end to the loop unless it is cut. There is no first or last to the series of events. There is only an order in which they occur relative to one another. As long as they occur, the loop exists.



I'm not trying to be rude, but linear logic won't prevail on this, because time doesn't operate on a linear premise. You're trying to apply a ruleset to a problem that can't be defined in the terms that ruleset dictates. You can't solve a differential equation using basic algebra. Similarly, you can't define time as a straight line with events A, B and C along that straight line, and expect it fit with and explain a multi-dimensional hyperspace model (in which time and relativity are defined.)



The temporal loop works, if you are able to accept that time is not linear, and that it doesn't need to be linear. If you can't accept it, then the loop won't work in your mind. It's ultimately that simple. If you don't get it, that's fine. You just can't say that it's not logical and doesn't work because you don't happen to see how it can.

[Sheyleigh Castille]

Holy hell! Go offline for a few hours and come back to see all this! Whew. ..

Well, Figrin, the post you made ohhh ... wayyyyyy back when finally made sense to me so I thank you for explaining it more thoroughly.

I get the idea now, even if it still seems a bit confusing.

I'm looking forward to seeing a T-4. I was hoping to see the machines reek havoc on the planet in T 3 so I was just a tad disappointed at the end.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Sheyleigh Castille
Holy hell! Go offline for a few hours and come back to see all this! Whew. ..

Well, Figrin, the post you made ohhh ... wayyyyyy back when finally made sense to me so I thank you for explaining it more thoroughly.

I get the idea now, even if it still seems a bit confusing.

I'm looking forward to seeing a T-4. I was hoping to see the machines reek havoc on the planet in T 3 so I was just a tad disappointed at the end.


Glad I could be of help. :)

Sorry about the train wreck that ensued. It was probably a lot of stuff that you didn't want to sort through. :x


We might not get T-4 for a while, with Arnold now taking the role of "The Governator." It just wouldn't be a Terminator film without him.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I don't think there is going to be a t4. But then, I didn't think there was going to be an Indy 4, either. :)

[Sheyleigh Castille]

Indy 4! I am anxious to see that one as well.

But, if I can point out that in T3, Arnold's character gets smooshed under a hydraulic door ... and they don't really need that organic skin over the cyborgs now since the machines are taking over ... though, it wouldn't be the same without Arnie in it but feasibly it could be done.

[Ardath Bey]

You're still not hearing me Fig. John Connor was never going to exist. What I have trying to point out to you is major plothole. John Conner was never going to exist. Sarah was never going to be the mother of the leader of the human resistance. The terminator had no probable cause to hunt Sarah Connor. Now don't forget, the original movie contained the first ever attempt by the machines to travel time, also had the first and last live human attempt to travel time. But here is where the plothole lies...

Of course, T-2 had the second ever attempt by machine and man to intervene in history. T-3 was third attempt ever by machine and man to intervene in history. Only each subsequent attempt they travelled backwards by a progressively less amount of time.

T-1, first try, John Connor was not yet conceived.

T-2, second try, John Connor at twelve years old.

T-3, third try, John Connor is an adult.

And here is catch -- Fig, you keep overlooking the fact that John Connor is a direct product of Kyle. But Kyle arrived after Arnold, meaning machine and man could not possibly have possessed any prior knowledge of this human being, John Connor, before left their own timeframe. Because John Connor is nonexistant until after Kyle invades the past and creates this anomaly by impregnating Sarah.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Figrin, can I have my frying pan back?

[Pierce Tondry]

You're assuming John was never going to exist. There are no grounds for that assumption.

We know as a result of the first movie that a John Connor exists in the future. Whether he is Kyle's genetic descendant is at that point irrelevant- the machines know he is Sarah's son and that is enough information to begin the assassination missions. You're ignoring the fact that what provides continuity for the loop does not necessarily start it.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

what strikes me as odd is that apparently everyone except for ardath just doesnt seem to understand what the problem is :p

[Ardath Bey]

Already brought up about a different genetic father in my first post in the thread. I made a joke out of it actually.

[Ardath Bey]

No actually my second post! :lol

[Pierce Tondry]

But you failed to connect it with the loop at all.

Edit: Also, each post has an edit button. You can use this to change a message's content instead of multiple posting, which you do frequently I've noticed.

[Ardath Bey]

Originally posted by Pierce Tondry
You're assuming John was never going to exist. There are no grounds for that assumption.

We know as a result of the first movie that a John Connor exists in the future. Whether he is Kyle's genetic descendant is at that point irrelevant- the machines know he is Sarah's son and that is enough information to begin the assassination missions. You're ignoring the fact that what provides continuity for the loop does not necessarily start it.

That is the best, clearest explanation I have heard the whole thread long. Kyle was not a necessary component of John's actual conception save only indirectly by Sarah Connor's survival.

[Pierce Tondry]

Yes. Now take it a step further.

Once the first Terminator steps into 1984, Kyle specifically must follow him (though we're not sure what events cause this). Once Kyle steps into 1984, the following events (i.e. the first movie) become the loop whether they were originally set to be or not. As a result, history includes the time manipulation and thus Kyle is always the father of John Connor.

[Figrin D'an]

Look... for that last time... I understand what you are trying to say. I'm not overlooking anything that you have pointed out. I'm saying nearly all of it doesn't matter, because you're assuming that the entire conflux of events is dependent upon linear time.

Before, after, first, last... it's all irrelevent, because you can't define this system in those terms. Kyle traveling back in time to 1984 isn't the "first event." There is no first event. Each event in the timeline of the story is a link in the chain, and the chain is strewn in the circle. Where is the beginning? Where is the end? Neither can be determined. This is nature of a causality loop.

We use simplistic measurements like seconds, minutes, hours, days, years, etc. to measure the passage of time. This system is linear in nature. Something that happens before "now", to us, is in the past. What is yet to come, is the future. Again... all linear thinking. In this mode of thought, we assume time "flows" in one "direction", because we can only perceive it in this limited manner. By this, we assume that the past can affect the present, and that the present can affect the future, and that no other options are possible. That's not necessarily true. And, until you can accept this as being possible, this entire discussion will go nowhere.

[Ardath Bey]

Nope, I comprende, now. During the twist of words something lost focus and I was arguing against something entirely different. The notion that John's existance was inseparable from the Kyle/father equation. Thus denying other variables.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I wish that one of the guys on the radio at the end ot T3 identifies himself at Kyle. That would be ossum.

Actually, maybe they do. I don't recall. And I don't recall seeing Kyle's name on the list that the TX had, either.

[ReaperFett]

Dumb robots :)

"Here is a list of all those we want you to kill"
"Sir, what about killing the guy who in the future, meaning the past, he will go back in time to the past to be John Conner's father?"
"...you confused me, I'm only an Intel Pentium 90! Shut up!"

[Pierce Tondry]

Thing is, no one in the movies is actively aware of who John's father is except for Sarah and John himself (though possibly Sarah didn't tell him?). Maybe the chick whose name escapes me will also know, but either way, the fact that Kyle nailed Sarah Connor is not "on the Grid"; that is, not information the machines have access to.

Couple that with the fact that John protects Kyle while he's a part of the resistance and John has ensured his own existence, in a way.

[Jedieb]

If you think about it, t2 completely throws the time line that sent Kyle back out of whack. In THAT time line Judgement Day has a specific date. But Sarah, John, and Arnold prevent it by destroying Cyberdine. T3 tells us all they ended up doing was delaying it. But that means that history has benn CHANGED. The timeline has been ruined. It gets ruined even further when the TX actually manages to nail a few of the targets on her list.

Ardath, I would look at the timeline as a rubber band. Try and find a beginning to it. You can't, it just is. Same thing with that time line. But again, I think things got screwed up by the postponement of Judgement Day in T2.

Minor events can have such profound changes in any timeline. This is one of the reasons I think timetravel is impossible. Theoretically, you could come up with the idea of time travel being able to create different timelines which exist in different dimensions. Marty goes back in time and helps his Dad find his testicles. He goes back to 1985 and finds his Dad is now a confident success, his Mom isn't fat, and his siblings aren't losers. So you've got a NEW timeline. But somewhere, in some other dimension, the patheric McFly's still exist.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That is why time travel is not possible really. If this was attempted in real life the whole space time continum would probably explode or something.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Jedieb
So you've got a NEW timeline. But somewhere, in some other dimension, the patheric McFly's still exist.


This is a valid theory in quantum physics. It states that, for each action, there is a nearly infinite number of possible outcomes, and each of these possible outcomes actually does occur, each one creating a new quantum reality (another "dimension," if you will). We only perceive one such reality path, because we can only perceive linear time.

Or so the theory goes.



Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
That is why time travel is not possible really. If this was attempted in real life the whole space time continum would probably explode or something.



:rolleyes

Just... stop. Please.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

The multiverse is an "oogleplex of oogleplexes!" I'm reading "Night Watch" by Terry Pratchet and it's dealing with time travel as well.

And don't forget "Timeline" hitting theatres the end of this month. They have the theory that it's impossible to change history by going back in time. :p

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think that theory has been established by other physists which is why they say time travel is impossible.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
And don't forget "Timeline" hitting theatres the end of this month. They have the theory that it's impossible to change history by going back in time. :p


This is an idea that has been floating around for a while as well. It has to do with string reasonance and all kinds of nifty hyperspace concepts, but there's a ... not quite a theory, more of a scientific premise... that one would be prevented from altering the timeline in a way that would cause a paradox. Kind of like a universal fail-safe mechanism.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That is interesting idea really although who knows. I wouldn't hold that against time travel films, I see them more as sci-fi fantasies myself. I look at them like Star Wars.

[Tear]

Thats sort of the whole point to T3 the timelines changed everythings going to be different now. When the first terminator went back in time it was because the machines were losing and needed an edge. Now skip ahead to T3 were the sexy terminator bonked off a few Lt's and judgement day was pushed back things are going to be far different for the future. dun dun..T4 possibly.

Now when i think of time travel i think of Circle. not a straight line. Because if you really want things to get weird try this...In the first time line when war first began who was johns father? It had to be someone right..he couldnt have just appeared out of thin air..

Thats why the straight line affect doesnt work..

Sarah+Kyle =John. John had to send Kyle back so he would be born. But what if Kyle was never sent back and the terminator wasnt either? Would john have been born..thats the paradox. I think Ardeth and Sheyleigh are getting at.

Terminator makes it so the war is literally caused by each other. The machines sent back the terminator which was destroyed but pieces were found at the destruction site. this caused mankind to jump ahead technologically. Terminator+ death= cyberdine = Machine War.

Now to Kyle and the war. The machines are losing so they send back the terminator mentioned in the paragraph above. Terminator is stopped by Kyle and Sarah. Kyle and Sarah are intimate = John = Savour of mankind in the machine war.

So in essence The machines caused their own war and visaverca(however you spell that)

So the War is going to happen now. T2 is about the machines trying again to stop that from happening which is where the original time line gets disrupted from what Kyle knew. Most of the Cyberdine tech is destroyed = Setting the Machines and the war back.

T3 is almost full circle were by sending the machine back she kills off a few important people for the future(that they the machines created) She also infects other Technologies with that finger thing giving Skynet an army. So far it only had control of hardware controlled by communications sattelites,internet, etc. But because of her he gets control of things previous out of his reach = Starting the war.

The terminator sent back only helps preserve John and his wife who are leaders of the resistance. They try but fail to stop Skynet from launching. So the war goes ahead.

So basically things that are sent back in time act like free agents. They arent part of the time line (yet) but they can change it.

For example take The last episode of Star trek Voyager(i hated this star trek but eh)

The captain has a chance to take her crew home by going through some super space orb that leads to the alpha quadrant or whatever(Episode sucked so bad n threw out continuity..bah! anyway) but the orb is controlled by the borg so she decides against it and takes the long road home. By doing so several crew members die before reaching home which makes her sad.

So a few years later in the same time line she goes back in time to convince herself to go through the orb..hence saving the lifes of the people who died.

So she future janeway goes into the heart of the borg and infects them with a virus that pretty much destroys them all. So present janeway is able to take her crew through the orb and save her crew changing the time line.

Future Janeway was a free agent changing the past and the future.

That differes a little from Terminator since The Machines and Kyle act as their own inventers and shouldnt really exsist but do and act as their own catalysts.

Hope that made sense..burnt my fries that were in the oven cause i confused myself...maybe i should go back in time and warn myself that im going to burn my fries. But then i might choke on a fry that may have been burnt in the previous timeline. Oh temporal paradox's how i love you.

[Sheyleigh Castille]

:lol Good lord! Ask a question and get all of this. :p But, this thread has been real interesting (albeit confusing :8 ) to read.