MLB 2003 Playoffs

[Jedi Master Carr]

Personally I don't have problems with pitchers throwing at hitters back in the 60's they did it all the time. Drysdell said a few times that if you don't get off my plate you will lose your head, and I think he meant it. All the great ones back then went after hitters back then it was the style, I think Pedro is like Drysdell, IMO.

[Jedieb]

Okay, now here's something HYSTERICAL. David Wells pulled a groin during Saturday's melee. How? Getting out of the dugout. That's right, not only did the 72 year old with surgically repaired knees beat him out of the dugout, but Wells injured himself in the process. Damn, David, PUT THE DONUTS DOWN!!!

[Figrin D'an]

Yeah, but Pedro threw way too close to Garcia's head. You just don't do that. Buzzing a hitter inside to knock them back is one thing. So is hitting a batter on say the arm or thigh. But going for someone's head is a huge taboo. There was no intent by Pedro to get hitters to back off the plate. He did it because he was frustrated. As for tossing Zimmer to the ground... well... I don't know about you guys, but if someone is charging at me with the intent of starting a physical confrontation, I'm going to put him on the ground, even if he is 72 years old.

As I said before, there are plenty of people that can share the blame for the brawl. But Pedro needs to grow up a little. On top of the intitial fallout, Pedro succeeding in making the Yankees angry. Like the Yankees really need any other motivation in this series. :rolleyes

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think Drysdell was accused of that stuff too, some hitter called him a real jerk, a head hunter etc. That is why I made the comparrison.

[CMJ]

Originally posted by Jedieb
Okay, now here's something HYSTERICAL. David Wells pulled a groin during Saturday's melee. How? Getting out of the dugout. That's right, not only did the 72 year old with surgically repaired knees beat him out of the dugout, but Wells injured himself in the process. Damn, David, PUT THE DONUTS DOWN!!!

:lol :lol :lol :lol

I'm hoping a good game occurs tonight, so everyone quits discussing the incident from Saturday. What I hate about it more than anything, is it may have taken the shine off of a Red Sox/Cubs World Series.

We're getting totally blamed by most media outlets I've seen and read. I hardly think we're innocent, in fact I was somewhat embarrased, but damn - we're getting raked over the coals here.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by CMJ
What I hate about it more than anything, is it may have taken the shine off of a Red Sox/Cubs World Series.



It has, unfortunately. Saturday's game had made it a lot more difficult for non Red Sox fans to pull for them. I still think that the "dream" matchup is indeed the Red Sox and the Cubs, but Boston sure didn't help their cause any.

[CMJ]

Well, I'm not so sure. The dream matchup is now probably the Yankees/Cubs. New York has definitely come out of this looking better than we have. America's honeymoon is over with Boston this year.

:\

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don't know about that most non-Yankee fans I know of still hate the Yankees. I don't think that will ever change.

[CMJ]

I agree with that - but alot of people who had no real horse in this series, or were rooting for the Sox because of the futility factor, are now less inclined to root for Boston.

I've read this on *several* messageboards now.

[Jedi Master Carr]

They would root for the Cubs more likely, I don't see any non-Yankee fan rooting for them in the WS.

[CMJ]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
They would root for the Cubs more likely, I don't see any non-Yankee fan rooting for them in the WS.

I was speaking of the ALCS here man. Alot of folks don't wanna root for EITHER team now.

[Jedieb]

Originally posted by Figrin D'an
Yeah, but Pedro threw way too close to Garcia's head. You just don't do that. Buzzing a hitter inside to knock them back is one thing. So is hitting a batter on say the arm or thigh. But going for someone's head is a huge taboo. There was no intent by Pedro to get hitters to back off the plate. He did it because he was frustrated. As for tossing Zimmer to the ground... well... I don't know about you guys, but if someone is charging at me with the intent of starting a physical confrontation, I'm going to put him on the ground, even if he is 72 years old.

As I said before, there are plenty of people that can share the blame for the brawl. But Pedro needs to grow up a little. On top of the intitial fallout, Pedro succeeding in making the Yankees angry. Like the Yankees really need any other motivation in this series. :rolleyes

Pedro, Manny, Zimmer, Garcia, & even Posada were all in the thick of it. I just thought it was surprising that the guy with the reputation for losing his cool didn't. I thought Clemens was way out of line a couple of years ago when he hit Piazza. Then Estes went ahead and made a clown of himself by basically giving him a love tap when the Mets had a chance to get some payback. Clemens then had that bizarre bat throwing incident in the series. But he was much more composed Saturday.

The thing about guys like Drysdale and Bob Gibson is they had the guts to go to the plate and face the opposing pitcher. That's backing your pitching up. I simply can't stand it when AL pitchers PURPSOSELY go after hitter's heads. They're hiding behind the DH, pure and simple. They've got no business acting like tough guys on the mound. At least guys like Randy Johnson have to step up to the plate and face the music. I'd LOVE to see the DH disappear, but the player's union will NEVER allow that to happen.

There's nothing wrong with pitching inside and backing a guy off. A pitcher, especially a power pitcher, HAS to do that. But going after a guy's head is just plain wrong.

[Jedieb]

Originally posted by CMJ
I agree with that - but alot of people who had no real horse in this series, or were rooting for the Sox because of the futility factor, are now less inclined to root for Boston.

I've read this on *several* messageboards now.


I've heard this as well. The Sox lost a lot of casual fans who were rooting for them because of their history. A lot of them got turned off on Saturday. Not that they're going to be jumping on a Yankee bandwagon, but I think many of them will root for the Cubs now. Especially if the Sox don't get past NY.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I actually like the DH but I like the offense I think that is why. And about pictures going after people's heads well a lot of them have done it I would condone it of course but it has gone on and probably will continue to go on.

[CMJ]

I hate the DH. For the most part I'd rather watch a NL game, because the pitcher actually has to pitch.

Not that I can't watch the AL(I mean c'mon the Sox hello?), but I like "little ball" and manufacturing runs. :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

According to a poll on ESPN more people are rooting for the Red Sox still

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?incomming=1&event_id=438&question2570=10245&question2571=10249&question2572=10251&question2573=10252&question2574=10255&question2575=10256&question2576=10258&question2577=10260&question2578=10268&question2579=10270

Its 55.7-37.4 (and 6.9 neither)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Wakefield pitched a heck of game again. And that insurance Run in the 7th was huge good baserunning by Varitek. This series is going 6 at least then could go 7. I like Lowe at home he pitches a lot better there then on the road.

[CMJ]

Considering knuckleballers don't usually need much rest, I'd be tempted to start Wakefield in Game 6.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I know over Burkett, he hasn't looked good lately.

[JMK]

BAD second inning for Lowe. Bad, bad news. The Red Sox have 5 innings to get those runs back. Once the Yankees get to their set up man and Rivera, it's pretty much lights out. And if the Sox lose this game, they have no chance at winning the series. None.

[JMK]

Ugh, this is ugly. The Sox just had a HUGE opportunity to get back into it and they came up empty. Runners on second and third with only one out and neither Walker nor Nomar could get the job done. And now in the 4th the Yankees have runners on second and first with just one out. This could get out of hand quickly....

[JMK]

Another huge opportunity for Nomar...he's gotta cash in something here in the 5th....

[CMJ]

I'm about to throw up. Things are not looking good.

[JMK]

The series is over. The Red Sox CANNOT win 2 consecutive games against the Yankees in New York where the Yanks have a chance to finish. Not with their hitters doing nothing at the plate. With Burkett going tomorrow, he'd better have the game of his life if this has any hope of seeing a 7th game.

[Figrin D'an]

Well... looks like the Red Sox are toast. Winning the next two isn't impossible, given the offensive firepower they have could finally awaken, but it'll be far tougher to win two straight elimation games in Yankee Stadium than it was to win three straight elimation games from the A's.


And... whatever forces are at work in the universe... please let the Cubs clinch tonight. The drama of needing a seventh game would kill just about every Cub fan...

[CMJ]

I pretty much agree with Kyle. I'll be amazed if we even win Game 6, much less Game 7. I'll still watch, but I have lost almost all hope. Maybe Burkett will pitch the game of his life, but I'm not expecting it.

The odds are very long now.

[Jedieb]

Ya can't throw Wakefield at us every night! (The 'us' is just for you Figrin. ;)

Great game by Boomer. That bases loaded jam he got himself out of was the biggest inning of the game IMO. Especially when you consider he had Manny at the plate. There was talk of jumbling the rotation to get Wakefield another start, but it looks like Becket is going tomorrow. Honestly, I think the Sox would be better off with Wakefield than Pedro if they managed to force a game 7. But there's no way they'd abandon their ace to go with their hottest pitcher.

If Petite can keep pitching as well as he has then you have to think this series will be over tomorrow. The odds are against the Sox, but they're still alive. I think they have a much better chance of coming back than the Marlins do. Speaking of which, time to get back to the tube.

[Figrin D'an]

1-0 so far... Pavano is pitching very well for the Marlins. Prior has his nasty stuff going, though. A couple insurance runs would be nice.

*is nervous wreck*

[Figrin D'an]

Here we go... whatever can go wrong, will go wrong...


|I

[Jedieb]

DAMN!!!!!!!!! DirecTV is giving me grief and the game isn't coming in. I've missed the whole thing. The only news I'm getting is from ESPN's Gamecast and the ticker on ESPNews. Well, I guess Dusty's decision to leave Prior in that blowout has come back to haunt him. Who knows if that played a part in the Marlins getting to Prior in the 8th, but if you can rest a starter in a blowout, DO IT!!!!

[Jedieb]

BOSTON -- Another night in the AL Championship Series, another to-the-death struggle between the Yankees and Red Sox. Is there any doubt these two teams are headed for Game 7?


Emotions spilled over in the bullpen -- as well as the phone lines.

If the apocalypse does occur Thursday night in the Bronx, the entire baseball world will be watching -- including two ex-Yankees who are openly rooting for the demise of Red Sox Nation.

To Goose Gossage and Graig Nettles, hating the Sox is just as easy today as it was in 1978.


"I was watching (Game 3) lying in my bed, and when (Manny) Ramirez starts walking to the mound with a bat in his hand, I jumped up and started screaming at the TV set, 'Kill that (expletive),' " Gossage said.


The former closer was practically shouting into his cell phone Monday afternoon, driving near his home in Colorado Springs. He was shouting not because of the long-distance connection, but because he equates Ramirez with Carlton Fisk, and considers Pedro Martinez a latter-day Bill Lee.

In other words, they are the enemy. Still.

Watching Martinez's fourth-inning fastball sail near Karim Garcia's head and seeing Ramirez threaten Roger Clemens with a bat was, for Gossage and Nettles, an invitation to a '70s time tunnel. Just mention Ramirez and Martinez, and you're back to an era when on-the-record quotes were unfiltered, and the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry wasn't just real; it was its own Northeast-corridor religion.


"Manny Ramirez is a (coward). I hope he reads that," Gossage said Monday. "If he pulled that stuff in the old days, he would've gotten back in the box and I guarantee you he would've had the next pitch in his earlobe. The guy is a one-dimensional player. He can hit -- a little. But he can't even hit when it counts."

“ Manny Ramirez is a (coward). I hope he reads that. If he pulled that stuff in the old days, he would've gotten back in the box and I guarantee you he would've had the next pitch in his earlobe. The guy is a one-dimensional player. He can hit -- a little. But he can't even hit when it counts. ”
— Ex-Yankee Goose Gossage

Nettles' opinion of Ramirez is just as bleak.


"He's a dog," the former third baseman said by telephone from Knoxville, Tenn. "He does nothing but loaf. Ramirez loafs on the bases, in the field. He loafs all the time. For all the money he makes, he should buy a book about how the game is played.


"To be honest, I hope the Yankees kill the Red Sox, embarrass them, 18-0. I hope I never have to watch Ramirez play again. That's what a dog he is."


Gossage and Nettles have plenty of venom for Martinez, who they're convinced deliberately tried to bean Garcia. When Martinez went one step further -- taunting the Yankees dugout, pointing at his temple while apparently threatening Jorge Posada -- Gossage lost whatever respect he says he once had for Martinez.


"That skinny little (expletive)," the Goose said loudly. "There's no question he threw right at Garcia's head. That's totally gutless. It's too bad he doesn't have to hit, because I guarantee you he wouldn't be throwing at hitters like that."


Even more outrageous, the two elder Yankees said, was the fact that Martinez went unpunished during the ensuing bench-clearing incident. Although Nettles excused Martinez for flinging Don Zimmer to the ground -- "I don't blame him for that, it was like, 'Get away from me,' " he said -- both men were disappointed the Yankees didn't seek out the Red Sox ace during the brawl.

"We would've chased Pedro right into the stands," Nettles said. "There's no way we would've been milling around like that. Garcia should've been the first one to go after Pedro. That's how you know the game has changed today. There's no way you let a 72-year-old man do your dirty work for you."


"I can't believe no one in the bullpen went after Martinez," Gossage said, agreeing with Nettles. "If it was me, I would've gone right for him. We would've finished it right there."


Goose took particular issue with Ramirez's behavior after a high fastball from Clemens. Indeed, the Rocket said in a postgame interview, "Somewhere Goose and Gator (Ron Guidry) must be smiling," because after all the pushing and shoving, the Yankees exacted their revenge by winning the game.


But Gossage noted that, in his era, the Bombers' score-settling would've been far more direct, if not violent

“ We would've chased Pedro right into the stands. There's no way we would've been milling around like that. Garcia should've been the first one to go after Pedro. That's how you know the game has changed today. There's no way you let a 72-year-old man do your dirty work for you. ”
— Ex-Yankee Graig Nettles

"You want to bring a bat to the mound? Let him try," Gossage said. "Ramirez might've gotten one of us (pitchers), but he wouldn't have gotten all 10. You wouldn't have seen him the rest of the series, I promise you, because we would've put him in the hospital.


"I saw what he did (in Game 5 of the ALDS against Oakland), pointing into the dugout after he hit a home run. Someone should've put him right on his butt for that. That made me sick. He hardly ever hits when it counts, and he has the (guts) to do that? Give me a break."


In fairness to the Red Sox, Gossage praised Jason Varitek, whom he called, "a real hard-nosed ballplayer, someone who could've played on our teams, for sure." But his benevolence didn't go much further than that.


In Goose's eyes, Ramirez -- and even Sammy Sosa -- represent all that is wrong about today's hitter: vain and hyper-sensitive, overreacting to the slightest provocation, real or imagined.


With obvious scorn, Gossage said the pitch Ramirez reacted to "would've been a strike if it was a little lower. He got mad over nothing. (Hitters) want it all their way, and they're getting it because it's the pitchers who are afraid. They're all the same: Ramirez, Sosa. They're all (cowards)."


Gossage went for another five minutes, casting a wide net over the modern-day player. Still, he returned to the core issue -- the Yankees-Red Sox war. Fenway will be loud and hostile for tonight's Game 5, but Gossage insists there are facts of life that never change, even after a quarter-century.


"They think they can intimidate the Yankees?" Gossage said. "(Bleep) them. No one can do that."


Pure 70's and 80's BoSox and Yankees hatred. Ah, the good ol' days. :evil

Damn, these former ball players are cranky old bastards, aren't they? :lol

[Figrin D'an]

The Cubs should have been out of the inning, though, well before the Marlins scored all those runs. First of all, the moron fan down the left field line reached out to catch a foul ball that Alou would have caught for the 2nd out. Then, Gonzolez had an error trying to backhand a slow-hopper that cost them getting the runner at second. If those two things happen differently, were talking 3-1 Cubs instead of 8-3 Marlins at the end of the inning.

Edit: I have a very bad feeling about how this is going to play out tomorrow (barring some kind of miraculous comeback coming up in the bottom of the 9th). Even with Kerry Wood going to the mound, I'm getting a bad vibe from all of this. This is playing out far to similar to other collapses the Cubs have had. I'm not superstitious at all, but I just don't get a good gut feeling from all of this.

[Jedieb]

8-3!!!! Holy crap! The poor Wrigley die hards will cry themselves to sleep tonight. You know that doubt is now starting to creep into their hearts and minds. Especially after seeing their ace get beat. It's up to Wood now. I've GOT to see that game tomorrow. C'MON DirecTV!!!:shootin

[darth_mcbain]

Man - that was pitiful... 8 freakin' runs!?!? I sure hope the Cubbies can pull this off. Barring a miracle in the 9th, at least they still have game 7...

And as for that fan... You know, I can't say that if I was in his position I wouldn't have done the same thing - it is natural to try to catch a foul ball, but with the ball being that close to being in or out of play, you would have thought that the fans would have backed off rather than try to catch it.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Darth McBain
Man - that was pitiful... 8 freakin' runs!?!? I sure hope the Cubbies can pull this off. Barring a miracle in the 9th, at least they still have game 7...

And as for that fan... You know, I can't say that if I was in his position I wouldn't have done the same thing - it is natural to try to catch a foul ball, but with the ball being that close to being in or out of play, you would have thought that the fans would have backed off rather than try to catch it.

See, that's my line of thinking as well. Practically the same thing happened in Game 2, Prior's last start before tonight. A pop-up was hit behind home plate, Bako ran over to make the catch, and two fans reached out and deflected the ball. Granted, it ultimately didn't affect the outcome of the game in that case, but it would have been another easy out. Afterwards, everyone in the stadium was screaming at the two guys, calling them every cursable nasty name in the book. You would think, after seeing that, a lesson would have been learned by all. Apparently not.

[Jedieb]

I just saw the highlights on ESPN. Prior didn't pitch poorly at all in that 8th. He was just let down by that fan and his defense. That error at shortstop was just awful. As for the fan, people were throwing beer on the guy. Either that, or he was wiping away tears. Honestly, after every thing that's happened, after all that Cubs history, HOW DO YOU NOT PULL BACK AND LET ALOU MAKE THE PLAY!!!? Remember, Wrigley is a place where they THROW BACK opponent's home runs! That poor bastard should have known better. If the Cubs lose tomorrow that guy will probably never show his face at Wrigley again. Hell, even if they pull it out tomorrow he may never be forgiven by Wrigley fans.

[Figrin D'an]

Security ushered him out before the game ended. They knew there would have been trouble if he was left to find his way out on his own.

He'll never live it down. Even if the Cubs manage to win tomorrow.

Of course, Fox only made it worse by showing him about 10 times after the play occured, and now ESPN has this lovely image on their main page:


http://home.wi.rr.com/kroken/moronfan.jpg

[Jedi Master Carr]

If the Cubs lose tomorrow he better move his body might end up in the lake. Now this could get very depressing for me if the Marlins and Yankees win tomorrow I won't even watch the WS I despise both teams.

[JediBoricua]

Can you hear the goats singing?????

[JMK]

Maybe interference boy and Gonzalez can move in next to Bill Buckner. I was sitting here with my friends and we had just gotten in from hockey, saw the 3-0 score in the 8th. My friends were like "Sweet it's over" and saw that there was a runner on second and only one out. I felt partially responsible for what happened because this whole thing went down as soon as I turned on the tv. I felt ill after that fan interfered because I knew what was coming. I agree with JMC, that fan better do everything in his power to change his identity. If his hair is short, grow it long, change it's color, grow a beard, put on 50 pounds...ah screw it, he's best to get across the tracks and seek the protection of White Sox fans who may find all this really funny.

If any of you frequent the chicago cubs newsgroup, I suggest you go check it out. I'm finding great quotes like this:


What happened?

I'm going to throw myself in front of the 66 Chicago Ave. bus right now.


I wish I was dead.


A Cubs cretin reached out and interfered with a catch, thus allowing the 8-run streak. The video shows who did it, the guy in the blue cap.

(He was escorted out under heavy security, but several people think they have a name...)

Any word on what the Vegas oddsmakers are putting on the chance that that bozo will live until morning?

[Figrin D'an]

They're ripping the guy on the Cubs official site message board, too.

[JMK]

I think Al Capone may arise from the dead to take him & his family out.

[CMJ]

I felt the error, was WAY bigger than the fan catching the ball. The Fish would've scored 2 in the inning if the ball hadn't been bobbled.

I felt like I was watching a Red Sox collapse...not a Cubs one. Usually the Cubs MO is to lose 90+ games a year. The Red Sox are the ones who somehow get beat down the stretch and/or in the playoffs. It was heartbreaking, and at the same time I almost had a sense of "I can't believe they're just as cursed as we are."

BTW: Doom and gloom is going on Boston Red Sox messageboards everywhere. The one good thing about last night - almost made everyone forget OUR one lousy inning that ruined the game. I hate the punk &*@ Yankees! :shootin

[Figrin D'an]

Kerry Wood had better pitch the game of his life tonight (ala the 20 strike-out game his rookie year). I have a bad feeling that he'll need to if the Cubs are going to win

[JMK]

And what is this talk I'm hearing of Tim Wakefield as the starter today? Are these people sick in the head? Knuckleballer or not, he still threw over 100 pitches the other day and there's still a soreness that needs to go away before you can get out there again. If his arm isn't feeling good, the knuckleball can't dance and then it's just a slow fastball, and it's tee-off time for the Yankees. Maybe Wakefield can go an inning or so if the Sox' backs are against the wall, but not more than that.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don't know he has done it before I remember one time he started one game came out of the bullpen the next and started two days later. Knuckleball pitchers have rubber arms.

[Jedieb]

Well the punk &*@ Sox have taken a big lead in the 3rd. It looks like we may get to see a classic game 7 match up with Pedro and Roger. Which is fine with me. It'll make the inevitable that much more unbearable for the Cursed Ones. Ah, yet another chance to see a tragic BoSox collapse.. :evil

[JMK]

I wonder if the Sox would do something like start Wakefield, let him go for 4 or 5 innings, let Pedro go another 3 and then turn it over to the bullpen?

Of course they have to win game 6 first...

[Jedieb]

Buckner LIVES and his name is NOMAR!!!:evil

Sorry Sox fans, but what did you expect?

[JMK]

Being only 25 and not in either Boston or Chicago, it's becoming easier and easier to finally know exactly why neither of these teams have won a title since Babe Ruth and Shoeless Joe were still playing. This is staggering....

[Jedieb]

Think about this, two of the better defensive shortstops in their respective leagues (Well, Nomar isn't Ozzie, but he's solid) have made errors on routine groundballs that have in their perenial hard luck clubs losing leads. Somewhere, the Bambino and the goat are laughing. Somewhere....

[JMK]

This all feels like an episode of Charlie Brown. You know how some things were a certainty? Like Lucy never letting Charlie kick the ball? Well the same with the Cubs & Sox.

[Jedieb]

And Posada goes deep! C'mon, just a few more innings and we can get Rivera in there.....

[Figrin D'an]

At times, it staggers me to think about the psychology behind both the Red Sox' and Cubs' "curses." Although, the Red Sox curse at least has some legitimate substance to the actual originating event. I mean, they sold the best player in the game at that time to their rival. The Cubs curse is just... well... silly.

Here's to Game 7, though. If it ends tonight for the Cubbies, at least they made it a hell of a ride.

[Jedieb]

A couple of deep shots to center and the Sox have cut it to a 1 run game with Manny on 2nd.

Some Cubs history:

"If you are a fan of any sports team, you probably have your share of sad memories and hard-luck stories. But the chances are, you have nothing on the fans of the Chicago Cubs1. What's so upsetting about the years 1908, 1945, 1969, and 1984? Why does mention of 9 December, 1992, cause so much pain? Who could possibly be bothered by the mention of a billy goat or a forgettable James Belushi movie? Come find out through the eyes of a lifelong, true blue, die-hard Chicago Cubs fan.


The Playoffs

The true measure of greatness in sport is how many championships a team wins. Another measure of success, especially with American sport, is how often a team advances to the playoffs. In the National Basketball Association and the National Hockey League, almost every team makes the playoffs. But in Major League Baseball only eight teams advance to the playoffs and, prior to 1995, only four teams advanced. Naturally, the Cubs have a long history of failing to make the playoffs.

The Cubs were very successful in their early years. Between 1906 and 1945 they reached the World Series (the baseball championship) ten times. But Chicago fans have suffered a lot since the early 1900s. In 1908, the Cubs won the World Series. They haven't won one since.

That's right, it has been 90 years and counting since the Cubs won a championship. But it gets worse. The Cubs haven't been to the World Series since 1945, and in fact, they haven't even won a playoff series since 1945. Adding to the misery, the Cubs failed to make the playoffs between 1945 and 1984, a string of nearly 40 years. The Cubs have managed to earn playoff berths in 1984, 1989, and 1998, but still haven't won a playoff round in over 50 years.

The Billy Goat Hex

The Billy Goat Tavern is a Chicago restaurant and bar that has been around since the 1930s. In 1945, the original owner tried to bring his pet goat to a World Series game between the Cubs and the Detroit Tigers. According to legend, when he was denied admission to the game, the tavern owner put a hex on the Cubs. He vowed that the Cubs would never win a championship until the goat was allowed in the ballpark. As mentioned previously, the Cubs haven't played in the World Series since.

In 1983, a descendant of the goat was invited to a regular season game. The Cubs failed to make the playoffs that year, but the following year they made the playoffs for the first time since the hex was put on the team. Despite this, the Cubs still haven't won a championship and the hex has never been fully lifted.

The Collapse of 1969

In 1969, 24 years after their last playoff appearance, the Cubs appeared ready to end their playoff drought. On 13 August, with a little more than a month and a half to go in the regular season, the Cubs held a 9-1/2 game lead over the New York Mets. Two short weeks later, the lead was down to two games. Rather than regroup and fight back, the Cubs continued to lose, dropping eight in a row in September while the Mets won ten in a row. The Cubs finished eight games out of first place, and the playoffs eluded them once again. It was one of the worst collapses in baseball history.

The False Hope of 1984

After nearly 40 long years, the Chicago Cubs finally broke through in 1984. Led by National League Most Valuable Player, Ryne Sandberg, the Cubs advanced to the playoffs against the San Diego Padres. For long-suffering fans, this was the season they had been waiting for. Even at the age of ten, fans clearly remember what an exciting time this was. But the excitement didn't last long.

The Cubs and Padres played a 'best of five' series to determine who would advance to the World Series. The Cubs won the first two games in Chicago, and needed just one win out of three games in San Diego to make it to the championship round. This was finally going to be the year. The Cubs were just too good to lose three straight games. But that's exactly what happened. Three heartbreaking games later, the Padres were headed for the World Series, and the Cubs were once again headed nowhere.

The Greg Maddux Fiasco

The Cy Young Award is an annual award given to the best pitcher in the American and National leagues. The first Cy Young was awarded in 1956, and the Cubs have had only four Cy Young winners in over 40 years. Ferguson Jenkins won the Cy Young Award in 1971, Bruce Sutter won in 1979 and Rick Sutcliffe won the award during the magical season of 1984. But in 1992 the Cubs proved that they can screw things up no matter how good their players are.

Greg Maddux had a great season in 1992, winning the Cy Young Award and proving that he was a pitcher who could lead the Cubs to greatness in the years to come. But Maddux's contract was up at the end of 1992 and if the Cubs failed to re-sign him, every team in baseball would be pounding on his door offering him a contract. The Cubs decided not to sign Maddux and on 9 December, 1992, Greg Maddux joined the Atlanta Braves. Naturally, Maddux won the Cy Young Award the next three years in a row, something that no pitcher had ever done before. As always, the experience left Cub fans shaking their heads and wondering what could have been. "

[Jedieb]

There goes the lead. Damn, why doesn't Torre have someone warming up? They should have had someone up as soon as Nomar hit his shot.

[Jedieb]

Well, that's probably the game. Not even the Sox could blow a 3 run lead in the 9th. Or could they... :cry

[CMJ]

Man, wish I coulda seen the game. I was at work watching the scoring updates every few minutes on the yahoo gamecast/

Wish I coulda seen it, but I'll be able to watch tommorrow!

[Jedieb]

You missed a great game. Well, great for YOU! ;) Game 7 tomorrow. The series will end the way it was MEANT to end.

[Jedieb]

And the Cubs go down 3-0 in the first inning. Poor bastards. UNBELIEVABLE! Well, at least a new generation is being introduced to what it means to be a Cubs fan. Again, poor bastards.

[JMK]

I can't believe what I just saw. Kerry FREAKING Wood.

[Jedieb]

OH MY GAWD!!!!!!!!!!!! :CRAZY

[Figrin D'an]

The HR by Wood helps a lot, but he has to get his control on the mound back. He's been off with the slider so far.

Although, admittedly, it has to be a little demoralizing for Redman to give up a HR to the pitcher.

[Jedieb]

Yeah, he's been struggling with the slider, but he threw a nice one there to get Pudge out. Man, this is going to be a great game.

[Figrin D'an]

Neither Wood nor Redman are going to last beyond the 6th inning at best. Pitch counts are going to be too high.

Great.... bullpen battle... :rolleyes

[Figrin D'an]

Aloooooou!

;)

[Jedieb]

Moises Alou My Darllin!

I think Redman might have done something to his ankle or leg on his last pitch to Sammy. Alou was all over that change up.

[Jedieb]

Pudge is just a FREAK! And now it's tie game.

[Jedieb]

And the Marlins come back. Man, can the Cubbies come back again?

[Figrin D'an]

I saw this coming a mile away. He lost his control early in the inning, and the Cubs had NO ONE up in the bullpen until after the lead was gone.

The Marlins will probably bring in Josh Beckett now.

[Jedieb]

It just doesn't look good for the Cubs right now. They've got 3 at bats left. They've got to get something going soon. :(

[Figrin D'an]

It may not matter even if they can get something done at the plate. They can't shut down the Marlins batters.

[JMK]

The Marlins just won't die. Even with 2 outs and the inning seemingly under control, they get a couple hits and a lazy blooper and now it's 9-5 and I'd pretty much stick a pitch fork in the Cubs at this point. How can they come back from this???

[Figrin D'an]

It's over. Veres comes in and gives up a double. Even with with throw out at third, two more runs score for Florida.

:(

I can't watch anymore.

[Jedieb]

We haven't talked about them that much, but do we believe in these curses or not? I believe in them in the sense that subconsciously, these things have gotten in players' and fans' hearts and minds. Hell, maybe even the opponents get a bit of juice from facing off against the Cubs and Sox in crucial games. Honestly, things have happened to the Cubs in these last couple of games that haven't happened all season long. Woods and Prior going down back to back. Gonzalez making his first error since early August on a DP that would have kept the game at 3-1. And I haven't even mentioned that poor fan. Man, Chicago is just going to be one big heartbreak after tonight.

If the BoSox do manage to get past the Yankees tomorrow, how can they not think a horrible fate awaits them against the Marlilns in the WS?

[Jedieb]

Okay, that's 1 run back!
9-6

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Jedieb
We haven't talked about them that much, but do we believe in these curses or not? I believe in them in the sense that subconsciously, these things have gotten in players' and fans' hearts and minds. Hell, maybe even the opponents get a bit of juice from facing off against the Cubs and Sox in crucial games.


This is pretty much how I see the whole "curse" thing. I don't believe in it, and I know a lot of people who don't. But, that doesn't matter. If the players know about it, and wonder about it's validity, the seed is planted for doubt. That can have a huge effect on someone's play on the field. Last night is the perfect example. The Cubs were cruising along, 5 outs away from winning, then a couple of strange things happen, and suddenly everyone gets uptight and the whole tone of the game changed. That's the effect of the "curse": messing with the psyche of the players on those given teams.

[JMK]

What would be nice is some baserunners for when the home runs come. Solo shots are not going to do it, especially when guys like Sosa are being made to look like fools in desperate situations.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don't believe in such things, I believe in curses like I believe people can put spells on people like Harry Potter, it is utter nonsense, sure it can effect people's pscyhe but I doubt most of these players even think about such things. Also if the Marlins win, I bet they get killed in the WS. I see the Yankees sweeping them and the Sox could too (heck the Sox played them three games in the regular season and scored like 50 runs on them in the three games).

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
... sure it can effect people's pscyhe but I doubt most of these players even think about such things.


Wanna bet? With how superstitious so many baseball players already are?

What you see them say to the media is hardly what they actually think.

[JMK]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Also if the Marlins win, I bet they get killed in the WS.

Famous last words dude! :lol At this point I wouldn't discount the Marlins from anything.
These guys never say die, it's nuts how they keep battling.

[JMK]

Last licks for the Cubbies....say a prayer if you know any....

[Jedi Master Carr]

I know but their rotation must be ruined and I don't see them holding up against the big bats of Boston and New York, plus I think the DH will favor the American League team.

[Jedieb]

1 out, man on 1st.. Just one more baserunner and the Cubs can at least have a small sliver of hope...

[Jedieb]

There are Cubs fans breaking down and crying all over the country. Unbelievable. Sorry Cubbies. :cry

[JMK]

:x
Loria & Samson in the WS. I'm gonna go puke.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am sorry Kyle hopefully his team get swept in the WS, I am hoping it is not the Yankees :p Also do you realize know if they win the WS do you want to beat they dismantle the team , Rodriguez is a FA and there are a couple others on that team too I bet they will stink next year regardless of what happens.

[Salvestro]

Wow you should see it down here in Miami....lol there is cars honking everywhere. Baseball is alive and kicking here! It's beautiful...

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am sure if Boston wins tomorrow it will make Miami look like a tea party. There would be hysteria in Boston if they reached the WS again.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Nooo the Cubs lost? :cry

:( Next year, Gadget, next year!

[JMK]

I wonder if there's anyone left in Chicago today, or if they all committed suicide. Imagine their disappointment after blowing a 3-1 lead, with 2 of those games being at home against probably the best 1-2 punch in baseball in Prior and Wood.

[darth_mcbain]

Man, that was a heartbreaker for the Cubs last night... I really wanted them to win. Hopefully it won't be another 40 years or so before they get their next chance...

[JMK]

Well there's no reason to believe they can't get there again next year, Prior, Zambrano and Clement should all be better, and Wood, well he's almost a lock.

Then again, they are the Cubs, and this is MLB where you have to have an outstanding season just to make the playoffs.

[Jedi Master Carr]

They need to keep their young players together, also they will get there outstanding CF, Patterson, back next season. I think they can be better next year though who can predict anything for certain.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Ok on with tonights game, honestly to me this game is unpredictable, seven games are a lot of times plus we have Pedro vs Clemens anything could happen. Sure you could say the Yanks should win tonight they are home, they can't lose two in a row. But who knows for sure, I am not going to make any predictions or anything I am just going to watch the game and see what happens I guess I don't want to jinx my team.

[CMJ]

I only got to see the last half of the Cubs game(late night at the office writing coverage). Man, I felt so bad for the Cubs and their fans. I know what it feels like, and I'm afraid I'm gonna have that feeling again in a few hours.

Our bats woke up yesterday, but frankly Pedro vs Roger is a tossup. Add on to that we NEVER seem to get past the Yankees and I just don't know. Even if we lose it's been an epic series...

I just don't know how I'll react to losing to NY again.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I know CMJ that is why I am trying not to think about it right now and why I am not getting overconfident and trying to take the middle ground of toss up. I figure that we lose I won't be devestated, now if we win I will be extremely happy.

[JMK]

Well think of it this way: There's always more pressure on the home team to win a game 7. So that may favor the Sox. Then again, this could be Clemens' last start, so he won't suck against his former team with a chance to go to the WS. So that may favor the Yanks. Plus there's always.........1918.

Game sevens....a sports fan's dream.

If it's a Marlins/Yankees WS, I'm going to have ZERO interest and will have a hard time watching the games now that hockey has started up. I've been skipping over the early going of the NHL season to watch the MLB playoffs, but if that's the matchup in the WS, I'm all but out.

[CMJ]

I like the way the Fish play, and I hate the Yanks, so I'd watch. But I do agree that of the 4 potential matchups when the LCS's started NY/FL was the least "sexy".

[CMJ]

Great article....man, I'm pretty jacked up. I'm expecting the worst and hoping for the best. Nonethless, I'm really excited about tonight.

****************************


By Jim Caple
ESPN.com

NEW YORK -- It's a game filled with such history, such emotion, such promise and so much anticipation that it may be the first game in baseball history that will require a cold shower before the national anthem. And with so much animosity, they may need water hoses before the final pitch.

Game 7 of the American League Championship Series at Yankee Stadium. The Red Sox against the Yankees. Pedro Martinez vs. Roger Clemens. The winner going to the World Series.

Will anybody be watching "Friends" tonight?

Pedro Martinez will get his second crack at the Yankees and Roger Clemens in less than a week in Game 7.

Before Pedro faced Clemens in Game 3, Boston first baseman Kevin Millar described it as a once in a lifetime matchup. Now we're seeing it again just five days later. But that's the way this postseason has gone -- the once in a lifetime moment has become the daily routine. It's been a postseason so compelling that it sends 72-year-old men charging onto the field to fight men 40 years younger, an autumn so captivating that fans feel the need to issue public apologies for getting too into the game.

"It's lived up its billing," New York's Jason Giambi said after the Red Sox forced a seventh game with a 9-6 victory Wednesday. "It's had everything in it and now it's on to Game 7. There's even been a brawl in there."

Oh, yes. The infamous Game 3 affair when Pedro tried to hit Karim Garcia in the head and Yankees coach Don Zimmer tried to bodyslam Pedro into the Charles River. The good news is that New York manager Joe Torre promised, "Zimmer is not going to hit tomorrow." The bad news is no one knows what Yankees public address announcer Bob Sheppard has up his sleeve.

Some prissy observers were shocked -- shocked and appalled -- that the two teams could behave as badly as they did Saturday. But this hatred has been cooking even longer than the hot dogs being sold for $4 in the Yankee Stadium concession stands. Back in 1938, in front of the largest crowd in stadium history, New York's Jack Powell and Boston player-manager Joe Cronin got into a fight after some brushback pitches, then continued their fight under the grandstands after they were ejected from the game.

And people think Pedro was a little over the top in Game 3?

As intense as the rivalry is, tonight's game marks a special moment. This is the 26th time the two teams have played this season, but it will be just the second time the Yankees and Red Sox have met in the last possible game before the World Series with the winner taking the pennant. The other time was in 1949 when the Yankees swept Boston the final weekend, a season so special David Halberstam wrote a bestselling book about it. The Yankees also beat Boston in the infamous Bucky Dent playoff game in 1978 to advance to the postseason and have beat them so many times on so many other occasions that when they played each other in the 1999 playoffs, Yankee great Yogi Berra assured Bernie Williams: "They can't beat us. They haven't been able to beat us for 80 years and they aren't going to beat us now."

Ah, but this year finally could be different. The Yankees had the chance to knock off the Red Sox on Wednesday. They had a 1-0 lead in the first inning. A 6-4 lead after the sixth. And each time the Red Sox came back, with the game's most potent offense finally breaking loose against starter Andy Pettitte and the Yankees bullpen with nine runs and 16 hits. Even Nomar Garciaparra finally broke out of his slump, banging out four hits, including a triple off the wall that led off Boston's three-run seventh inning rally.

"I'm just glad I don't have to answer anymore questions about what's wrong with Nomar," Boston general manager Theo Epstein said. "If you've seen Nomar for a couple seasons, you know there is no such thing as a slump. It's just a matter of the inevitable."

Tonight's game will be Pedro's last start of the season unless Boston wins. It will be Clemens' final start of his career if the Yankees don't.

Game 7 of the playoffs with the World Series and his career on the line. After 4,099 strikeouts, 310 wins and six Cy Young Awards, do you think Clemens is going to be revved up a little for this one?

"He's been pitching for 20 years," Yankees shortstop Derek Jeter said. "And being revved up has kind of worked for him."

"We've got to make him work," Boston center fielder Johnny Damon said. "(Roger's) going to be up for this and Pedro needs to be on. This will be the biggest game of his career and there are going to be 60,000 fans booing him to death."

The Yankees fans were already letting Pedro hear it Wednesday afternoon, shouting insults at him so vicious he wouldn't repeat them. "It was really personal," he said. "Let's put it that way."

Obviously, the fans are ready. And the pitcher certainly will be ready. So make sure the fridge is stocked and the cable bill is paid. This one should be a doozy.

Clemens and Pedro may be facing off against each other on the mound, but they won't be alone. It's never just the players on the field when these two teams meet. It's also all the players who have ever played in the rivalry.

Joe DiMaggio will be taking batting practice with Ted Williams. Billy Martin will be challenging Jimmy Piersall to a fight in the stadium tunnel. Carlton Fisk and Thurman Munson will be wrestling in the dirt behind home plate. Bucky Dent will be going yard, Reggie Jackson will be admiring his home runs and Carl Yastrzemski will be raising his bat high as he squints at the pitcher.

You won't be able to see them, of course. But if you pause to listen, you'll be able to hear their echoes as distinctly as a "Red Sox suck!!!" chant in the bleachers.

And of course, the Babe will be there as well, swatting mammoth home runs, devouring hot dogs and watching both his teams compete.

Jim Caple is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

[Jedieb]

Son of a ............
2-0 BoSox. Friggin' Nixon. :shootin

[Figrin D'an]

Wow... could the Red Sox actually beat the Yankees, in Yankee Stadium, to win the AL penant?

A few innings to go yet, but dang... I'm impressed that they have the lead this late in the game.

[Jedi Master Carr]

6 outs to go, is it possible. I still don't know what to think yet. I am hoping beyond hope but there is still that doubt in the back of my mind they will let me down again. Pedro has been great but I go to the Bullpen which has been dominate in the playoffs. He has thrown a 100 I wouldn't risk it much longer.

[Figrin D'an]

Jesus, what a way for it to end... and off of Wakefield no less.

[imported_Grev Drasen]

One word: Bambino.

[Figrin D'an]

Yeah, no kidding...

Looks like both "curses" continue for another year.


Somewhere, though, some Fox executives have to be swearing up a storm, since they were oh so close to a ratings-buster Red Sox/Cubs matchup.

[Jedieb]

The Curse of the Bambino lives.

Great series Sox fans. I feel for you guys. Keep the faith. You guys are gutsy fans and anyone who thinks different doesn't know what they're talking about.

[JMK]

That was BY FAR the worst loss the Red Sox have ever suffered. Now tell me there's no such thing as a curse. I don't think there's a billy goat and bambino curse, just a curse on both cities. Both the Cubs and Sox had 5 outs to go in elimination games to move on, and both had 3 run leads, and they both lost it. Something is definetly going on methinks...

[Figrin D'an]

I know... that's way too eerie. I was chatting with Charley when the Sox had 5 outs to go, and I mentioned that the Cubs folded in the exact same situation. Lo and behold, it happens to the Sox too...


The thing that stings fans of both the Cubs and the Red Sox so much is that both teams were in control late in cliching games. They were both soooo close, yet found ways to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory.

[JMK]

Oh yeah, I'd be very surprised if Little kept his job after leaving Pedro in far too long. Me and my mom were screaming at the tv for Little to get him out of there as soon as Jeter doubled. Who gives a damn if he wants to stay. He's pitched alot in the post season, even if he felt ok, his best stuff was behind him. As a manager sometimes you have to overrule your star pitcher, period. His bullpen was great in the post season, it wasn't too much to ask for 5 more outs with a 3 run lead. Little is going to be crucified in the papers and media for an entire off season.

[Sanis Prent]

I would've definitely pulled Pedro earlier. Not because of lack of faith in Pedro, but because of what the Sox could've brought to bear. Wakefield was good to go, not to mention their full repertoire of competent savers.

They could've pitched circles around the Yankees, and failed. to do so.

:cry

[CMJ]

Man, I couldn't bring myself to post last night. Anyone that knows me well is aware that I rarely if ever second guess managers. In fact I usually berate people that do. That said...I was "first guessing" last night.

I was FURIOUS with Grady for leaving in Martinez. He had pitched 99 pitches through seven innings...the bullpen had been terrific all postseason...and you send Pedro out to die. I didn't even want him to start the 8th inning.

Then when Little didn't pull him after Jeter...I was like "You gotta be kidding." THEN he *still* doesn't pull him after the single to Bernie...then Matsui...then Posada.

What a MORON. This was not the curse(and I even believe in it to an extent) with gremlins forcing us into errors in late innings. I throw this loss fully on Little's head.

How long till pitchers and catchers report again? :cry

[Jedi Master Carr]

Same here CMJ I didn't want to post last night either couldn't bear it. Still it is not the worst loss that was Game 6 of 1986 WS that was heartbreaking the worst loss I have ever seen (I was 10 at the time and it still hurt). I agree with you I have no clue what Little was thinking that was the stupidest move I have ever seen. Pedro was tired I could see that, I would have pulled him and brought in Embry to face those lefties. I might have Pedro start the 8th but he should have been pulled after Jeter's hit. I wouldn't be surpirsed if Little was fired, he has no contract for next season, this is not Epstein's guy so he might go out and find somebody else (haven't got a clue who right now). Also I have heard rumors from Peter Gammons that Boston might get Curt Schilling next season. Arizona has to trade him (they can't afford to keep him) and Boston seems to be the most interested, we need another starter and I be happy to bring Schilling back to Boston. Finally about the curse I still don't believe I just don't give in to suprestition as CMJ said this was all Little's fault.

[JMK]

Dude, don't worry, I'm sure Little won't have his job when next season starts. At least he shouldn't. The Red Sox newsgroup is going NUTS asking for his head on a pike. I can't believe he stayed with Martinez.

Now we have to suffer through a WS with one owner who helped ruin baseball in one city, and another owner who is ruining it for everyone else. For the first time ever, I hope no one wins world series. I won't be able to stomach seeing Loria hoisting the WS trophy (I tuned out of the NLCS trophy presentation on wednesday night) and seeing Steinbrenner hoist it again is just so tiring. Seeing these guys on top makes my innards liquefy and my skin crawl.:x

[Jedi Master Carr]

I know what you mean Kyle the last two season I liked who won the WS. I guess this year I won't be watching it all. I will just turn my full attentions to football now. As far as Little I expect it to happen now I can imagine the Sox brass going nuts over that call and though sure he made to the ALCS you could argue they would have gotten farther if it wasn't for him. Not sure who to replace him. I thought Valentine would be a good choice though you seem to think he is a bad choice :p How about Mike Hargrove?? He is out there and is a good manager (I think Baltimore was stupid for firing him, he didn't have anything to work with there.)

[JMK]

Well I think he's probably the best available at this point. They need someone who isn't afraid to over rule his star players, that's for sure. So going with an unknown would be useless if you ask me. However, I'm expecting a statement from Red Sox brass any time now (though probably after the WS) saying that there are no immediate plans to make a managerial change, which in fact can be translated to: "we're looking, and unless we find THE guy we're sticking with Little...but we're definetly looking".

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah I expect that too, I think they would bring in a name although there only two names out there right now that are good managers.

[JMK]

There's also the rumor that Torre is out of New York and that Lou Pinella is going to come, so maybe Epstein can lift him out of Tampa.

[Sanis Prent]

This should be the first time that the ratings for the world series are dwarfed respectively by the ALCS and NLCS. Nobody I know will be watching that abortion of a series. I hate both teams, and if anybody asks, I'm pulling for al Qaeda to win.

[Jedi Master Carr]

LOL. About Pinella maybe he is a good manager but he might not want to leave being so close to his family, although who knows he may be tired of losing already :p

[JMK]

Reports say that he is tired of losing already.
FOX is going to be so let down by this world series. If either Boston or Chicago had made it in, then the ratings for the WS would be double what they are going to be now.

[CMJ]

This sums it up.

*************************

Paradise lost, again
By Bill Simmons
Page 2 columnist


Twenty minutes after the Yankees eliminated the Sox, I called my father to make sure he was still alive.

And that's not even a joke. I wanted to make sure Dad wasn't dead. That's what it feels like to be a Red Sox fan. You make phone calls thinking to yourself, "Hopefully, my Dad picks up, because there's at least a 5-percent chance that the Red Sox just killed him."

Well, he picked up. And we talked it through. We always do. Dad's voice was barely audible. He sounded like he just got out of surgery. Like every other Sox fan on the planet, he couldn't understand one simple question: Why didn't Grady take out Pedro? In the eighth inning, Pedro was running on fumes. Everyone knew it. Everyone but Grady Little.

Little did we know, our overmatched manager was saving his worst for last.

"He screwed up the season," Dad grumbled. "He screwed up the whole season."

So it happened again. Nothing was worse than Game Six against the Mets, but this was damned close. I don't need to tell you why. If the Red Sox were a girl, you would probably just break up with them. You would call them on the phone, explain to them calmly that you can't take it anymore, let them down as gently as possible, then move on with your life. But sports aren't like that. You're stuck with your teams from childhood. It's like being trapped in a bad marriage. You can't get out.

Hey, this is my team. I came to grips with that a long time ago. They're part of my life. Sometimes they lift me to a higher place. Sometimes they punch me in the stomach and leave me for dead. There's no rhyme or reason. And there are thousands and thousands of diehards just like me, all trapped in that same bad marriage, united by our experiences and memories. We wear Sox caps, we pack Fenway Park, we travel insane distances to support our team on the road. We always have each other. And some days are better than others.

This was one of the bad days. Given that the f**king Yankees were involved, and the way things unfolded, it may have tied for the worst.

I can't say this strongly enough: I will spend the rest of my life wondering why Grady let Pedro wilt to death in the eighth inning. This isn't Pantheon Pedro anymore; honestly, it's been over two years since he was doing his Mozart routine on the mound. Even if his best start is still better than just about anyone else's best start, asking him to throw 125-plus pitches over three-plus hours in Yankee Stadium -- in the most improbable, nerve-wracking setting imaginable -- was indefensible at best and catastrophically moronic at worst.

Unlike the other devastating losses over the years, you couldn't blame any of the Sox players for losing the series this time around (no, not even Nomar). This was a great group of guys -- a resilient, likable team that almost always came through, just like they proved in Game Six. Every time you counted them out, they came roaring back. I loved that about them. Unfortunately, they couldn't manage themselves. Switch Grady Little and Joe Torre and the Red Sox win the series. The two teams were that close.

I would rehash the eighth for you, but frankly, I'm not in the mood. Nobody in his right mind would have allowed Pedro -- 115 pitches on the odometer, struggling heroically with a three-run lead, running on the fumes of his fumes -- to pitch to Hideki Matsui. Not with flame-throwing Alan Embree waiting in the bullpen. This isn't even a debate. And the ensuing disaster -- Matsui's ground-rule double, followed by Posada's bloop single to tie the game -- wasn't just predictable, it was downright sickening. It was '86 all over again. Aaron Boone's homer in the 11th wasn't just inevitable, it was practically preordained.

Of course, the TV networks and newspapers got what they wanted: They spent the entire month gleefully rehashing those same "Curse" stories for both the Cubs and Sox, flashing graphics like "RED SOX WORLD SERIES WINS AFTER 1918: 0" and showing so many Babe Ruth pictures, you would have thought John Henry Williams had brought the Babe back to life. It was borderline pathological. Fox even made Boone's brother a guest announcer for the Sox-Yanks series -- apparently, Plan B was one of George Steinbrenner's kids. Well, here's your reward, guys: A Yankees-Marlins series that absolutely nobody will watch. Well done.


That two star-crossed franchises both blew three-run leads with five outs to go . . . sure, that's a little kooky. But the 2003 Cubs didn't lose because of a goat, and they didn't lose because of poor Steve Bartman. They lost because Dusty stupidly left Mark Prior in the game too long. They lost because their bullpen, shaky all season, imploded at the worst possible time. They lost because Gonzalez botched an easy ground ball, and because Kerry Wood didn't rise to the occasion in Game 7. That's why they lost.

It was a little more simple for the 2003 Red Sox. They fell short because of their crappy manager, to the surprise of absolutely no one who followed the team on a regular basis. I'm sure he's a nice man, and I'm sure everyone likes him . . . but when it comes right down to it, you don't want Grady Little managing your team in the "Biggest Non-World Series Game Of All-Time." I could give you about 150 Grady examples from the last two weeks -- including him breaking the major-league record for "Consecutive games with a failed hit-and-run that resulted in a double play" -- but that would be a waste of everyone's time. This man would hit on 19 at a blackjack table because "he had a feeling." That's all you need to know.

As for me, I feel like Andrew Golota just spent the last two weeks punching me in the gonads. The A's series sucked up 90 percent of the residual emotion in my body -- it was like enduring a four-hour breakup with somebody, then deciding to get back together in the end. The Debacle That Was Game Three -- Pedro acting like a baby and throwing at Garcia, Manny overreacting because Clemens threw a fastball within four feet of his head, Zimmer and Pedro re-enacting the Clubber-Mickey fight in "Rocky 3" -- took care of the rest of my emotions. For the past few days, I was walking around with one of those weird, Daryl Hannah-like half-smiles on my face, like the lights were on and nobody was home. I was tapped.

Like I wrote last week, the baseball playoffs can do that to you. My friend JackO (a Yankee fan) called me on Thursday to say, "No matter what happens, I'm a carcass right now." That's the perfect word. Carcass. Of course, he doesn't feel that way anymore, the bastard. His team came through. Mine failed. Again. You know it's a bad loss when one of your friends is saying, "I just spent the last 15 minutes reflecting on everything that's good about my life, and I guess I just have to keep doing that for the next couple of days to get through this" (actual quote from my buddy Hench).

And I'm sure this game will be a staple on ESPN Classic, and that it will definitely cost Grady Little his job -- thank God -- but honestly, the last two weeks took something out of me. You spend six months following a team, you devote something like 1,000 hours of your year to watching-reading-discussing them, and then everything vanishes in thin air. And you feel like a moron for devoting so much of your time to something so, so, so . . . (I can't even think of the right word).

Only one thing still bothers me. As a Sox fan, I take great pride in ignoring the past, thinking positively and blindly believing that "This is the year" under any and all circumstances. I don't believe in the Curse. At least, I think I don't. With that said, I watched the first 10 innings at my office last night, surrounded by a support system of friends from work. When the clock turned midnight on the East Coast, I noticed the "NY 5, Boston 5" score . . .


And I started thinking about it . . .


(Haven't I been down this road before?) . . .


And I finally made the connection.


(Oh God!)


And it weakened my knees like Kerry Wood's curveball.


It was like seeing the Ghost of Eighty-Six. Suddenly, I knew they were going to lose. I grabbed my stuff and quickly bolted out of there, looking like a guy grabbing his clothes after a bad one-night stand. My friends were in disbelief -- it was like Montecore the Tiger was dragging me off the stage. I couldn't possibly explain it to them. Ten minutes later, I walked through my front door, sat down next to the Sports Gal -- who was dutifully watching the entire game on the sofa -- then watched Aaron Boone crush that Wakefield knuckler into the stands.


I had been home for about 45 seconds. No lie.


Looking back, I can't say I was surprised . . . just like Cubs fans can't say they were surprised when the wheels came off after Gonzalez's error. As a sports fan, sometimes you know when bad things are about to happen. You recognize the depressing signs because you've been there before. So maybe that's the real "curse," those moments when you turn into Haley Joel Osment in the Sixth Sense . . . only you aren't seeing dead people, you're seeing a dead ballgame. And when it's happening to thousands of fans all at once, the resulting collective karma kills your team.


It was not if but when the Yankee hero would be crowned.
(Does any of this make sense? Of course not. I'm completely insane. The Red Sox have driven me insane. It's official.)


Anyway, my wife understands now. She only jumped on the bandwagon a few years ago, thanks to me. Now her Sox virginity has been taken; she was near tears last night. "I finally understand why you're so crazy about this team," she kept saying. "I can't imagine going through this for my entire life. This is horrible." Add another one to the list.


As for my Dad, he's still alive. When we were hanging up last night -- right after we finished rehashing Grady Little's mistakes -- I mentioned how I had to stay up late to write a column.


"You have to write something tonight?" my father said, incredulous. "Jesus. I'm going to bed."


"You can go to sleep right now?" I asked.


"Of course not. I'm just too depressed to do anything else."


That's my Dad. He's 55 years old. I hope he gets to see the Red Sox win a World Series some day.


I hope.


Bill Simmons is a columnist for Page 2 and ESPN The Magazine, as well as one of the writers for "Jimmy Kimmel Live" on ABC

[Jedieb]

Ah, the THRILL of victory... :D

Nobody I know will be watching that abortion of a series.
Well, I'm gettin' MY perfect WS match up. :evil

As much as I've been hoping for a Futility Series, I get a family affair now. My Dad and I get to face off in the WS. I spent the 8th inning on the phone with him. As soon as Little came off the mound without Pedro I knew we had them. It really was incredible. That was one of the WORST managerial decisions I've ever seen in the post season. I couldn't believe he was keeping him in there. I simply couldn't believe my LUCK! There are so many little (no pun intended) things that happened last night that swung the game the Yankees' way. Think about this, if Ortiz doesn't hit that homer off of Wells in the 8th Martinez may NOT have come out for the bottom of the 8th. That 3 run cusion just gave Little that much more reason to send Pedro out for another inning.

As disgraceful as Pedro's behavior was last week, he was pretty gutsy after the game. He faced the media and took full responsibility for the loss. He wouldn't let anyone put the blame on Little. He put it all on his shoulders and the other players. But honestly, there isn't a single person in Boston who's going to buy that. Little looked like he was ready to kill someone in the post game news conference. He stuck to his guns on his decision to keep Pedro in the game. I think he answered all of 2 questions and then no one had anything else to ask him. He looked like he was ready to tell them to go screw.

Say what you want about the Yankees, but last night you saw many of the reasons why they've been rattling off titles these last few years. (And all this IN SPITE of The Boss.) It starts at the top with Torre. He out managed Little. It wasn't even close and it proved to be the difference. Both managers had starters in trouble, but only one had the sense to pull him at the right time. And look at how his decision to drop Giambi in the order paid off. And unlike Little, he used his bullpen successfully. Then there's Jeter with yet ANOTHER key hit in the middle of a postseason Yankee rally. And finally you have Rivera. There's been no bigger reason for the Yankees' recent dominance than Mo. He was incredible last night. With all of the innings this guy has thrown in the post season his ERA has now dropped BELOW .8 (It's around .75 I think.) That's just sick.

My Dad will hopefully get a chance to see a game in Miami if my cousin can manage to get some tickets. Believe me, my Father isn't tuning in just because the Marlins are suddenly in the WS. This man LOVES baseball. He always has. If the only game on were a Tigers and Brewers match up he'd watch every pitch. He simply adores the game and seeing his local team go to the WS again has him jacked. Throw in the fact that he's a National League guy and you've got the perfect team for him. Unfortunately for my Father, I got hooked on Gossage, Jackson, Chambliss, Randolph, Guidry, Nettles, and company while sitting on my Grandfather's lap in the 70's. If my Father hadn't been working double shifts things might have turned out differently, but them's the breaks.

So now Father and Son square off. There friggin' Marlins scare the crap out of me. Even if we win 4 games I'll have expect them to rise from the dead and take back the trophy.

Yankees in 6.

[CMJ]

I'd be remiss if I didn't congratulate the Yankees and their huge following. I'm not a sore loser...yall definitely have a great, great team.

Good luck in the WS...even if I have to root for Florida. I've said it before, I'd root for Saddam Hussein's club team over NY.

[JMK]

He out managed Little. I disagree. Little outmanaged himself. Or undermanaged. Joe Torre didn't have to beat him, I think all Red Sox knew that it was only a matter of time before Little defeated Little.

[Jedieb]

Good luck in the WS...even if I have to root for Florida. I've said it before, I'd root for Saddam Hussein's club team over NY.
:lol
You know I'd have been pulling for ya if you weren't facing the Yanks.


I think all Red Sox knew that it was only a matter of time before Little defeated Little.
You poor bastards. I just don't know how you can stand it. That HAD to have been Little's last game as the Red Sox skipper.

[imported_Grev Drasen]

Oh well, Sox all the way next year for sure.

Yanks will be losing some players.

[JMK]

I know that most organizations go with a wait and see approach, and most wait until cooler heads prevail and the guy always gets another chance. But I don't think Sox fans are going to let the Red Sox brass forget this one. Little should be packing up his home right now and possibly looking to manage a triple A team. That was an unforgiveable mistake, no matter how much of the blame Pedro takes on himself. The Red Sox pay Pedro to pitch. They pay Little to make the on-field decisions. If the players are going to play and make the on-field decisions, then why have Little around at all? He's as good as gone.

[imported_Grev Drasen]

I wonder who's worse off now: Little with the Sox fans or Bartman with the Cubs fans.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don't know the Red Sox fans can be very bad in Boston they sent death threats to Buckner I know that. I think Little will be fired and they will hire either Hargrove or Valentine most likely. Also the ratings on this thing are going to stink man, Fox execs must be sick now, they were beating the other networks all week and now next week they will probably finish 4 all week.

[Doc Milo]

Does anyone here know how to get from Princeton (New Jersey) to Yankee Stadium using public transportation?

Or even from Princeton into either Grand Central Station or Penn Station in NY would be helpful....

[Jedi Master Carr]

Here is another article by Caple this one is very good and I agree completely with him

NEW YORK -- Joe Torre, on the other hand, knew when to take his starting pitcher out of the game.

"Roger Clemens is always easy to take out,'' Torre said after the Yankees' 6-5 Game 7 victory over the Red Sox. "He knew as well as anyone that he didn't have his best stuff.


Everything looked so good for the Red Sox ... that is until Pedro Martinez faltered in the eighth inning.

"There is no time for sentiment when you're trying to win a ballgame.''

That's why the @&^@#%!!! Yankees are going to the World Series again and Boston fans will spend this winter and the next winter and the next winter and probably every other winter of their lives moaning about the Curse of the Dumbo, Grady Little, their soon-to-be ex-manager of the Red Sox.

There the Red Sox were, five outs from the World Series with Pedro Martinez on the mound, five outs from beating their arch rivals with their ace in charge, five outs from finally beating the nemesis that has whipped them mercilessly since before Don Zimmer had hair.

Then Derek Jeter (who else?) doubled on Pedro's 111th pitch.

And Little left Pedro in.

Then Bernie Williams singled home Jeter on Pedro's 116th pitch to cut Boston's lead to 5-3.

And Little left Pedro in.

Then Hideki Matsui doubled on Pedro's 119th pitch to put the tying run on second.

And Little still left Pedro in.

And then Jorge Posada singled on Pedro's 123nd pitch to tie the game and bring the sellout crowd screaming to its feet and the ghosts of postseason past screeching into Yankee Stadium.

That's when Little finally took the ball from Pedro, and by that point, the only surprising thing was he didn't immediately hand it to Denny Galehouse. "Pedro Martinez has been our man all year long and in situations like that, he's the one we want on the mound over anybody we can bring in out of the bullpen,'' Little said. "He had enough left in his tank to finish off Posada.''

That sounds great, Grady. Be sure to include it in your resume when applying for your next job.

Little's decision to stick with Pedro far too long is so much worse than manager John McNamara's failure to put in a defensive replacement for Bill Buckner in the 1986 World Series. Worse than the move to take out Jim Willoughby in the 1975 Series. Worse than the decision to start Galehouse instead of Mel Parnell, in the 1948 playoff game against Cleveland.

This is a decision that will haunt Boston fans until even after the Big Dig is complete.

The Red Sox clubhouse was mostly silence after the eventual loss, with several players choking back tears. Pedro, who showed little character after the Game 3 melee last weekend by ducking the media, showed a great deal of it Thursday night by standing as tall as his 5-10 frame allows and taking full responsibility for what happened.

"I wouldn't put Grady on the spot like that whatsoever,'' Pedro said. "I am the ace of the team. I wasn't thinking about pitch counts then. That is no time to say I'm tired. There is no reason to blame Grady. He doesn't play the game. We do. I do. If you want to blame someone, blame me. I walk out there. I'm responsible for the pitches I make in the middle of the game.

"Grady did a great job throughout the season. I don't think it's fair to blame Grady for the decision made out there.''

Yes, it is. No starting pitcher as good and as competitive as Pedro is ever going to say he is tired and isn't strong enough to continue. That's why you hire managers to make the decision for them.

I can understand the reasoning behind letting Pedro begin the eighth inning. He allowed only two runs for the first seven innings, he is the ace and he has earned the right to stay in a game in that situation if he wants. And you could also make a case for letting him stay in even after Jeter's double, because Williams is a switch-hitter who would simply step across the plate and bat from the right side if Little brought in lefty Alan Embree.

But you can't let him face Matsui, who had two doubles in six previous at-bats against Pedro this week, including one in the fourth inning Thursday. And after he doubled yet again, you certainly can't let him face Posada.

Yankees' dominance in the ALCS
Year Opponent Result
1976 Kansas City Yanks won 3-2
1977 Kansas City Yanks won 3-2
1978 Kansas City Yanks won 3-1
1980 Kansas City Yanks lost 0-3
1981 Oakland Yanks won 3-0
1996 Baltimore Yanks won 4-1
1998 Cleveland Yanks won 4-2
1999 Boston Yanks won 4-1
2000 Seattle Yanks won 4-2
2001 Seattle Yanks won 4-1
2003 Boston Yanks won 4-3

This isn't second-guessing. Pedro was tiring, Boston's pen was outstanding the entire postseason and Embree was ready. The decision was so obvious that as soon as Little left the dugout to talk to Pedro after Williams' single, I drew a line in my scorecard to indicate a pitching change. Everyone was screaming for Little to take out Pedro (and probably none louder than the Fox executives suddenly stuck with a Yankees-Marlins World Series on their schedule).

Only Little didn't make the move. Evidently, he was busy wondering whether he should use a defensive replacement for Buckner.

"When Matsui came up, I was like, 'All right, this is it. This is (Pedro's) last batter,'' New York pitcher Mike Mussina said. "Then Matsui hit the ball down the line for a double and I'm like, 'OK, that's it, that has to be his last at-bat.

"I know he's got some good numbers against (Posada), but it seemed like we had gotten some good swings against him lately. I'm sure (Little) will look at that decision and think about it most of the offseason.''

There's no doubt about that. The Red Sox haven't picked up the option on Little's contract for next year yet, and after the eighth inning disaster, they shouldn't.

"He was trying to win the game,'' Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein said. "I'm not going to second-guess our manager. I support our manager. He's a huge part of our team.''

Naturally, Epstein wasn't going to fire Little then and there. The decision to do that or not will come later.

In the meantime, the Sox have yet another postseason failure to add to their history, just as the Cubs do. Both teams can look at the Yankees, who seemingly go to the World Series at will, and the Marlins, who have reached the World Series the only two times they've really tried, and wonder why they can almost never get there, nor win when they do.

And while they do that and the rest of us mourn the dream World Series that so nearly was, Little should begin checking the help wanted section.

In fact, there are probably plenty of openings for selling "Cowboy Up'' t-shirts now

[CMJ]

Originally posted by Doc Milo
Does anyone here know how to get from Princeton (New Jersey) to Yankee Stadium using public transportation?

Or even from Princeton into either Grand Central Station or Penn Station in NY would be helpful....

Can't help ya Doc. I think you're one of the very few from the NY area here.

[Jedieb]

I read that article today Carr. It was pretty dead on. Honestly, what pitcher is going to tell you he DOESN'T have gas left in the tank? It's especially tragic when you consider how WELL the Sox pen had performed during the series. I think they had something like 26 out of 27 scoreless innings. They were pitching so much better than they had during the regular season. Little just blew it, period.

[Jedieb]

Spent the bottom of the 9th inning on the phone with my Dad. Good game, but you get the feeling the match up just isn't sexy enough for the rest of the country. The Marlins used their speed effectively and Pudge I don't see the Yankees in panic, they've been there done this so many times it's old hat. I really think this series is coming back to NY for game 6 and probably 7.

[JMK]

So I'm assuming the Marlins won? My dream of no one winning isn't coming true!

[CMJ]

It was a really good game. The Yankees are gonna have a tough time dealing with the speed of the Marlins. They NEED Game 2....otherwise I think they're toast.

[Jedieb]

Whoa, oh, there goes Tokyo, here comes Godzilla! 3-0 Yanks.

Still, this means nothing to that Marlins team. I doubt they're even breaking a sweat.

[Jedieb]

Look at this, Matsui is coming up to bat and the opposing manager is taking his pitcher OUT of the game! What a novel idea! It's brilliant! It's yet another reason why Little should be visiting the unemployment line!

[Jedieb]

FRIGGIN' SCALPERS!!!! :shootin

These bums have gone and snatched up every ticket for the games in Miami. My Dad's got at least 15 ticket stubs on his mantle, but he can't get 1 WS ticket because scalpers have been buying them in droves. I hope most of these losers get arrested this week. :mad

[CMJ]

Looks like we'll be going down to Miami tied at one all. The Yankees looked dominant tonight, but I doubt the Marlins care much.

[CMJ]

Now THIS was funny. :D

********************************

, 2003


By Jim Caple
ESPN.com

As Major League Baseball celebrates the 200th anniversary of the Sony/Time-Warner/Fox/Geiko Global Championships Sponsored by Microsoft with Funding from the Northern California State Lottery (better known as the old STWFGGCSMFNCSL, or as baseball purists stubbornly insist on calling it, "the World Series''), there is one team that is less excited than the others.

The Chicago Cubs.

Their "World Series'' drought is at 158 years -- they haven't played in it since the end of WWII, two entire world wars ago -- and Cubs fans still blame their misery on the Billy Sianis billy-goat curse,* as well as the poor guy who interfered with a foul ball for their near-miss in 2003.

In fact, it has been a Cubs tradition for decades to egg the south Florida home of 126-year-old Steve Bartman each opening day.

"You know, I thought it was a great thing when they developed the immortality pill in the 2020s,'' Bartman said. "But I never would have gone to the trouble of convincing my HMO that I needed it if I knew living forever would also mean listening to those pathetic losers for the rest of my life.''

What makes the Cubs plight especially sad is that the postseason has changed to a 64-team tournament and they still haven't reached the final. The 130 major league teams now play all over the world, in as many distant locales as Asia, South America and New Halliburton (formerly known as Iraq). Even though old-timers complain that expansion has diluted the quality of baseball overall (they say there is never enough pitching), the Cubs have been unable to reach their ultimate goal.

Heck, even the loveable New York Yankees, the longtime doormat of the American League Central Northeast Division, have been to the "World Series'' as recently as 66 years ago.

But not the Cubs. Every year when the 154-game regular-season schedule runs down in mid-September, fans gather to watch the tournament selection ceremony at the Cubby Bear Bar (one of the few bars to stay in business after smoking, drinking, eating, listening to loud music or speaking above a whisper were banned by law from public areas). On those rare occasions when the Cubs actually receive a tournament bid, they are seeded so low in the toughest bracket that they're usually eliminated by early to mid-October, weeks before the finale.

Oh, there were a couple of close calls. There was the 2031 season when the Cubs had the best record in baseball, but the World Series was canceled due to the hugely unpopular agents strike. And then there was 2057 when the Cubs again had the best record only to have the entire postseason cancelled due to global flooding after the polar ice caps melted.

The worst moment of all, however, was in 2074 when the Cubs actually won the pennant but had the "World Series'' canceled after the J-Lo3147 asteroid struck the earth, knocking out the earth's power grid and rendering the QuesTec mechanical umpires inoperable.

Other than that, it's just been a long miserable 158 years of misery.

"If only we could get to the big dance in Minnesota just once,'' Ballard High School basketball coach Sammy Lepse III said. "It would make my great, great grandfather so happy.''

Minnesota has been the official host of the "World Series'' since global warming gave that state the world's best winter climate. Just as they do every year, fans will pack the venerable Metrodome this week for the December Classic. Most will be rooting against the team viewed as baseball's Evil Empire, the dynasty that has won the "World Series'' more times than anyone else, the franchise whose very name has come to mean global domination.

The Boston Red Sox.

The Red Sox ended their own "World Series'' curse in 2035 when center fielder Johnny Damon-Affleck and Jennifer Hamm-Garciaparra, the major league's first woman All-Star, arrived in Boston. Of course, the Sox dynasty truly began when they acquired exclusive rights to the celebrated Ted Williams DNA. Fielding an entire team of clones each season, the Sox have won 58 of the past 84 championships.

With batting champ Ted Williams (who hit .406) leading the offense, shortstop Ted Williams anchoring the best defense in the majors and with baseball's best eight-man rotation of Ted Williams, Ted Williams, Ted Williams, Ted Williams, Ted Williams, Ted Williams, Ted Williams and Jesse Orosco, the Sox are overwhelming favorites to win again.

But the Expos, still playing each game on the road while searching for a buyer, are going to give them stiff competition. Staff ace Darren Baker is 104 years old, but he has been nearly unhittable since he underwent Dontrelle Willis Surgery and had both of the Hall of Famer's arms attached to his body.

Whoever wins, it should be a great series, even with the inconvenient afternoon starting times.

Of course, Chicago fans might disagree.

"Actually, being vilified by Cubs fans isn't that bad, really,'' Bartman said. "I mean, I don't like going out of the house much anymore anyway since the ozone layer disappeared.''

Jim Caple is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

(* -- now extinct, the goat was once a semi-domesticated farm animal)

***********************

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[Jedieb]

:lol
That was hysterical! But he lost me as soon as he gave the Bo Sox championships. Now that's just silly! A team of clones is more believable!:evil

[Doc Milo]

About the curses....

BoSox: Curse of the Bambino
ChiCubs: Curse of the Billy goat

Participants over recent years:

Bruce Hearst (would have been MVP in '96 if Sox won)
Billy Buckner
Bucky Dent
Aaron Boone

Steve Bartman
Josh Beckett

I'm sure there are more......

[Jedieb]

sorry about that. ;)

[CMJ]

Attack of the Killer B's, eh Doc? ;)

[Jedieb]

Another 6-1 victory. The Marlins are starting to realize they're not playing the wide-eyed Cubs or the Cursed Red Sox. It's business as usual. For the Yankees, these are 7 and 8 inning games with Mo waiting in the bullpen. Beckett pitched a great game last night but Jeter was just... Jeter. Godzilla is just on fire this postseason. If any team can come back it's the Fish, but they're not facing a team that historically falls apart. And after that last game 7 against the D'Backs, I get the feeling Mo wants to cement his legacy. Bad news for the Marlins.

[JMK]

I think the series is as good as over now. It's just going to be too hard for the Marlins to continually come back on the Yankees. They're such playoff performers and always find a way to win. The Marlins had to make good on Beckett's start and they didn't. They're in big trouble.

[CMJ]

I'm not counting the Marlins out, but they are in real trouble now.

[Jedieb]

MY DAD GOT TO GO TO LAST NIGHT'S GAME!!! :crack

I didn't even know until I called him tonight. I'm so happy for him. My cousin was able to score some tickets earlier this week. They sat through the rain delay and stayed until the bitter end. Their seats were on the first base side and my Dad said he had a decent view. I'm so happy he got to catch at least one game!

If the Fish don't win tonight it's over. They're not playing the Cubs or the Sox, this is the Yankees. They don't win them all, but they don't lose series they have in their back pocket. The Marlins need to win tonight to make a series out of this.

[JMK]

They had it. Urbina lost it.

[JMK]

And Gonzalez takes it back. What a job by the Marlins bullpen to keep the Yankees from manufacturing one measly run when they had all those baserunners in extra innings.

[CMJ]

That was a terrific effort by the Marlins. Giving up that lead would've crushed most teams, but they fought back and took it.

You gotta love their character....

[Jedieb]

Another great game for this post season. We're definitely heading back to Yankee stadium. This is probably going to go the full 7.

[CMJ]

I think the Marlins need to win tonight. Not sure they can win 2 in New York...one is feasible.

[JMK]

You're right. As far as I'm concerned, this is a must win for the Marlins, even though the series is tied.

[CMJ]

Then again, we've counted the Fish out SOOO many times this postseason. It wouldn't surprise me if they do in fact win this evening. I'm not really a fan per se, but gosh I love their grit.

[JMK]

Well when things like the opposing starting pitcher goes down after one inning, it certainly makes things easier for the Marlins. Contreras was clearly shaky after not being ready to get into the game this early but has calmed down nicely. I can't stand the Marlins for 2 reasons, but gawd are they resilient. It's like they don't even know what the score is, they always get their knocks and their runs.

[CMJ]

No kidding, I really like this squad.

[JMK]

The one thing I have a problem with is Tim McCarver's constant cheerleading of the Yankees. It's like Don Cherry with the Maple Leafs. :x

[JMK]

I love when they cut to a shot of ol Georgie in his luxury suite. He looks like a little fat kid who's about to lose the only game he's any good at after all the skinny kids run circles around him.

[CMJ]

The series at this point is a tossup. It's turned out to be a really good one.

[Doc Milo]

McKeon announced today that he's going with Josh Beckett on short rest for game six.

From a Yankee-fan point of view, this, I think, is a good move for the Yankees. My logic is as follows: For the Yankees to win the series, they have to do it in seven, which means they will have to face, and beat, Beckett regardless. I'd rather face him on short rest when he possibly won't be 100% with our hottest pitcher on the mound opposite him (Pettitte) than in game seven on full rest.

Now, I think Florida is making a mistake. They are letting the Yankees face two pitchers on short rest rather than try to steal game six with a "lesser" pitcher and, if they lose, have Beckett on full rest for game seven.

While Beckett is good, he's not a dominant pitcher like Shilling or Johnson where when the Yankees faced Arizona. If Beckett doesn't have his stuff, he's hittable. Putting him out there on short rest is increasing the chances he won't have his best stuff.

If the Yankees do win against Beckett again, does it make sense to place all your game seven hopes on Pavano versus Mussina? Sure, Pavano pitched a hell of a game in game four, but ... I'm not sure he's going to have that kind of success again on short rest in Yankee Stadium...

Right now, the Marlins, of course, have the edge... But the series isn't over yet....

The one thing that really worries me is the Yankees hitting. They look like they're swinging wiffle ball bats at hardballs...

[JMK]

Josh. Freaking. Beckett. Welcome to baseball lore kid.

Congratulations to the Marlins. What a scrappy team.
I have mixed feelings. I love seeing Goliath fall, but I think I'll change the channel before Loria gets to touch the WS trophy.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yankees haven't lost in the WS at home since 81 that is interesting. After that they went 15 years before they got back again, I hope history repeats itself there :p Steinbrenner might be ruining the team. They said after the game that Zimmer was leaving because of George and Stolemener(sp) might be following him. Also who knows what he will do now that they lost, will he fire Torre or Cashman?? Will he make a bunch of moves who knows. If he fires Cashman and Torre though he will be destroying that team they will go back to the 80s when he nearly killed the franchise.

[Doc Milo]

I keep hearing how Beckett pitched a great game. And far be it from me to not give credit where credit is due, but I can't help but wonder if Beckett was that good or the Yankees were that bad hitting-wise.

Since game two, the Yankees haven't really hit at all. Their bats have been slow, and when they made contact, it looked like they were hitting hard balls with bats made of paper.

Now we'll hear from the Yankees and Torre saying how well everyone played and that they were just outplayed. But that's total BS. The Yankees did not play well at all (Except their starting pitching, which was the only thing that kept them in the games.)

The credit I give to Beckett is seeing that the Yankees were not hitting certain pitches, not adjusting, and kept at them until they showed they could adjust.

It's time for a complete overhaul of the Yankees. Keep Jeter, Williams, Posada, Pettite, Mussina and Rivera, and make everyone know that anyone else is a possibility for a trade....

[Jedi Master Carr]

The Yankees offense is defintely not what it used to be they hit terrible the entire postseason, if Boston's offense hadn't went south they would have beaten them.

[Doc Milo]

Not just the entire postseason. The Yankees haven't hit well the entire season. The only reason they won 101 games was starting pitching.

[Jedi Master Carr]

You would no better than me but you are right. Now they are in for a delima, Clemens retires, Wells is gone, they are left with two starting pitchers that are good and an enigma in Contrans(sp) they probably need to go after somebody but it is never easy getting FA Pitching.

[Syo]

I am a Yankees fan, and I do not mind them losing the world series because at least they knocked Boston out of the playoffs

[Doc Milo]

How many times could the Yankees have asked Pettitte to save them this post season? And if not for bad defense, this game would be heading to extra innings. Jeter's error -- Pettitte throwing to the wrong base on a bunt -- Posada not blocking the plate on the play at home.

If not for a stupid decision by Joe Torre in game four, we're heading to game seven tied at three... Why he put Weaver in there is beyond me! As soon as he was put in, I knew they'd lose. That was the decision that changed the entire series. The Yanks had just tied the game, had the momentum switched to their favor, and he brings in Weaver? Mr. Whiplash (From turning around to watch the ball flying out of the park!)

Like I said, the Yankees beat themselves. Torre can talk all he wants about how the Marlins beat them, they didn't beat themselves, but he is wrong. The Yankees beat themselves. Up two games to one, Torre's decision let the Marlins back in the series, and the Yanks defense and lack of hitting gave the Marlins this series. The Marlins did not play very good. The Yankees just played worse.

The way the Yankees were hitting, I could have been pitching with my 75mph "heater" and my flat hanging curve and beaten the Yankees.

[Jedieb]

I spent the bottom on the 9th on the phone with my Dad. I could hear my mother screaming in the background once Beckett tagged Posada out. I'm happy for my Dad but I'm just sick. The Yankees had their chances but their bats let them down. Yeah, Torre should have brought Rivera in, but he had a feeling the game was going to drag on and he didn't want to use Rivera until he had to. If the Yankees had been able to get that one crucial hit with the bases loaded in extra innings then we would have seen Rivera in.

And how about Wells bailing on the team? Wells wants to be a businessman and protect his health, fine, that's his choice. I'd rather be a TEAMMATE. You would have had to drag my fat, back spasmed, drunk carcass off the pitching mound. If I blow out my back and end my career then so be it. I couldn't think of a better way of going out than giving it my all for my team in the WS. And at age 40 with millions of dollars in the bank I wouldn't have been sacrificing much.

Beckett was clutch, the Yankees weren't. He relied on his curve ball and breaking ball and the Yankee hitters couldn't adjust. He kept throwing first pitch strikes and that helped keep his pitch count down. Now King George is probably going to go ballistic and take control of personnel decisions. Welcome to the horror that was the 80's. When George tried to build a team on speed and got disasterous results. The best thing that happened to the Yankees was George's suspension in the early 90's. He had to step back and let PROFESSIONALS run the team. So you got guys like Michael and Showalter and then Torre and a dynasty was built. I can only imagine what we're going to get now. :(

[JMK]

Is the empire about to topple?

The Yankees didn't adjust to anyone's pitching. The beat the Twins soundly.


Torre can talk all he wants about how the Marlins beat them, they didn't beat themselves, but he is wrong. The Yankees beat themselves.
Maybe so, but shouldn't Yankee fans be somewhat lucky that they were even in the WS? After all, the Red Sox beat themselves and let the Yankees back in. If Little removes Martinez when it was clear he was tired, it's the Red Sox and Marlins in the WS. Oh yes, the Sox beat themselves and the Yankees got lucky.

This was a postseason of teams coming back to win series'.
The Sox came back down 0-2 to beat the A's.
The Yankees and Sox both made comebacks in their series'
The Marlins came back on the Giants AND Cubs AND Yankees.

After awhile, you have to stop saying the Yankees sucked, and start saying that the Marlins just didn't know how to lose. Here's a couple of facts:
The Marlins have NEVER lost a post season series.
Before this post season, Beckett had NEVER pitched a complete game in any level of baseball, and now he's done it twice when his team had chances to win big series. A shutout in game 5 vs the Cubs (I think) and a shutout vs the Yankees in game 6. I don't think the Yankees beat themselves, The Marlins were better.
The moves Torre made this post season didn't pan out the way the moves McKeon made all turned out to be golden. Torre was outmanaged by an old man with a clearly less talented lineup.

I think Steinbrenner is going to go nuts very very soon, and I can't wait! :rollin

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think you are right Kyle, I think Steinbrenner will go crazy have to wait to see what he does.

[CMJ]

The Yankees did not give away this series. Florida TOOK it!

The Marlins deserved to win, and they did so. The Yankees will be back(I'm sure), but right now it's time to give the Fish their due. An excellent squad...deserved Champions of Baseball.

[JediBoricua]

I'm so happy for Pudge!

Yeah the Marlins deserve all the credit, they not only beat the Yanks, but the Cubs and the Giants.

They took the hard long road to the title.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Looks like Little will get fired today

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1647772

Of course this comes as no shock.

[JMK]

Just as I suspected. :) Right after the WS, Little gets axed.

I heard on Dan Patrick's radio show today that the Yankees are thinking of trading Soriano and Johnson to Montreal for Vasquez and Vidro. It wouldn't be the worst move in the world, but then they said they would agressively pursue Guerrero after that. :(

That would be a nightmare for me. I could live with the trade if it were made, but then the signing of Guerrero would just kill me. Especially if the Yankees got him. I love Guerrero, Vidro and Vasquez as Expos. If they started wearing the Yankee pinstripes I'd have no choice but to hate them.

[CMJ]

And you could have a nice strikeout man(Soriano) in your line up. ;)

[JMK]

:verymad :shootin :headbash

Yeah, lose a switch-hitter who almost never strikes out, bats well over .300 each season, and has a great glove at second AND our ace, for Nick Johnson (Who cares...he's a bench warmer) and Soriano, good player, but strikes out way too much. It would leave the Expos with a huge hole at second base. Cabrera and Vidro were one of the best middle infields in all of baseball.

[JediBoricua]

That would truly suck!!!!


BTW, are the Expos coming back to PR next season? I don't think so right?

[Jedi Master Carr]

Vald has said he doesn't want to go to New York (I think he doesn't want to play for the media there or something) there are rumors that the Dodgers or Orioles might sign him.

[JMK]

It's still up in the air. MLB wants to. The Expos players voted, and don't want to. After they made their wildcard run, and it was evident that there still are fans here, they decided almost unanimously to play all their games here. But in order for that to happen, MLB is threatening to slash payroll dramatically in order to recover the losses they would suffer from not playing in PR.

[CMJ]

Peter Gammons reported Grady Little may replace Zimmer on the Yankees bench. o_O

The rivalry never ends.

[Jedi Master Carr]

LOL well they can have him :p Maybe he will make some bonehead decision there. Any rumors on who is coming to Boston? I heard talk of Glenn Hoffman, though he is an unknown. I have also heard rumors of Jim Fergosi, fromt the Boston Globe. Fergosi would work for me, he was a good manager at Philadelphia.

[Jedieb]

Originally posted by CMJ
Peter Gammons reported Grady Little may replace Zimmer on the Yankees bench. o_O

The rivalry never ends.

Is that a joke?! Man, that's pouring salt on the wounds. Well, Little's more popular in the Bronx than Boston so it makes some sense. After the way Soriano hit this post season I wouldn't be surprised to see him go. I also wouldn't be shocked to see Guerrero in pinstripes. Mark my words, if it doesn't happen next year, it'll happen within 2 or 3. The Yankees will field a $200M team. It's only a matter of time. And it just isn't fair. Remember, this is coming from a Yankees fan!

[Doc Milo]

Some speculation in the NY Post that Don Mattingly will replace Rick Downs as Yankees hitting coach.

Also heard the Yankees are thinking about bringing Ken Griffey Jr. to NY ... although, he seems like he's on the downslide.... That, to me, would be a typical Steinbrenner move! (Ken Phelps for Jay Buhner...)

[JMK]

I must think of a way to keep Vladi out of Yankee pinstripes. It's just not right.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That is why there should be a salary cap and revenue sharing like there is in football. This is why football is in better shape, teams can't buy championships in the NFL it is impossible, it is not fair for one team to buy up all the players.

[JMK]

Except for the fact that the MLB player's union is by far the strongest of any of the sports and they will never agree to a salary cap. I hope they see the light and accept some sort of cap, and increased revenue sharing, but almost more important than that, there should be a salary floor which ensures that a team will spend a minimum amount on salary. This way, the small market teams can't just gather up the shared funds and throw in none of their own. I would think a floor of $40M and a ceiling of $90-$100M a year would do wonders to make baseball more interesting again.

[CMJ]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
LOL well they can have him :p Maybe he will make some bonehead decision there.

Yeah, since Zimmer turned out to be such a terrible coach when Torre hired him. :p He was run outta Boston too.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Heh well Zimmer didn't do anything but sit on his fat butt, IMO anyway with NY. And Kyle I agree with you and to me that is a problem. I still think the Owners should of held out back in 95 and played replacement players and broke the Union that is what the NFL did to the players union it was destroyed because of replacement players back in 87.

[JMK]

Last month, the Expos players voted against playing more games in Puerto Rico in 2004, but they are now reconsidering a proposal to play all 22 before the all-star break to make the travel schedule easier.

Cabrera remains dead-set against playing home games anywhere but Montreal.

"If we have 2,000 fans (in Montreal), we want all 2,000 to cheer for us," he said. "That's not what we get in Puerto Rico."

Without the Puerto Rico games, the team could be gutted due to the lower revenues.

Basically he's saying that the problem with PR is that not everyone in the stands is necessarily an Expos fan, and that hurts the team.

[JediBoricua]

'Tis true.

They always have people cheering for them, and Expos hats and jerseys sold well, but most people were there to watch the prican players.

When playing against the Reds, or the Marlins there were more Expos fans. The story was different againts the Mets, Cubs, Braves and Rangers...

So I understand the players, and it all the traveling must suck...oh well. BUt I have developed an affinity for the team, and know will be rooting for them in the future, wherever that is.

Other teams are looking into it though, including the world champion marlins...more info will pour in soon.

[CMJ]

It's kinda funny....I read a script at work this afternoon about the Curse of the Bambino. ;)

[JMK]

Oh dear lord no....another smack in the jaw to Sox fans.

[CMJ]

Actually it's a comedy..and at the end the Sox finally win the series. Not too bad...some pretty hilarious scenes. Nonetheless, I gave it a pretty mixed review. I think we'll pass on it. ;)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Does Boston really want to get rid of Rameriz

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1650053

I think its because of the money they would save but still I don't think anybody would do this only the Yankees have the payroll and even they are said not to be interested. I am guessing they are trying to see if there is anybody interested in trading for him. In away I could take a trade, I rather get Nomar locked up in a long term deal and lose Manny, we could take that money we save off him and get some more players.

[JMK]

Doesn't Nomar want to to go home to California when this contract is up?

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think he will resign if they give him enough money. He has never said he wants to leave, so I think he will stay. Here is more about Manny

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2003/10/30/yankees_not_interested_in_ramirez/

Maybe the Devil Rays will sign him, heh they seemed to be interested, they surely have the room payroll rise.

[JediBoricua]

JMK local newspaper are reporting today that it's official, the Expos will be back next year for 22 games.

Nothing being reported up there?

[JMK]

I haven't been paying much attention today, but I heard an interview with Orlando Cabrera yesterday on my local sports radio station and it sounded like the Expos would agree to play games there so as not to have to slash payroll, but I think they were thinking that they would play their FIRST 22 home games in PR, and then come home to Montreal for all remaining home games. If that's what the deal is, then I can live with that. It cuts down on travel for the team and it gives them a longer stand in PR to develop larger fan support. It should pay dividends near the end of the year if the Expos can make a wild card run, or first place in the NL East. They were nearly unbeatable in Montreal and the atmosphere was electric once they started charging for the playoffs. Having true fan support down the stretch (assuming the Expos are in contention) would be crucial.

[Doc Milo]

News about the World Series Losers --

Donnie Baseball has finally agreed to come back as the NY Yankees hitting coach. Willie Randolf will take Don Zimmer's job as bench coach. If Mazzili does not get the Oriole Job, he is moving from first base coach to third base coach. And Louis Sojo is now officially a Yankees coach -- he will be at first base.

News about Don "Donnie Baseball" Mattingly is welcome. I never like Rick Down as a hitting coach -- the other time he was their hitting coach the Yankees had trouble hitting and getting clutch hits... Then this year the same thing.... I've been hoping they'd get Mattingly for the longest time....