Rail Gun Physics Discussion

[Titus]

Am I to understand that hand held rail-guns are employed here?

[Alpha]

Yuppers. In limited supply though.

dasq~You're right, I AM a Jedi...but I use all manner of weapons...:)

[Dasquian Belargic]

I don't see why you would need all these huge guns, though. I mean what are you planning on shooting? Are you planning on carrying them all around with you constantly? If so, are you going to buy a pack-mule to do it for you? Honestly, this obsession with Jedi and guns is beyond me totally. You might as well just buy a light assault tank while you're at it.

[Droo]

They're basically anti-Jedi weapons anyway. I wish the council would outlaw possessions of such weapons, a Jedi shouldn't be buying or acquiring any other weapons if they were to adhere correctly to the Jedi code.

[Dasquian Belargic]

My thoughts exactly.

[AmazonBabe]

I can understand a side arm like a blaster, but anything more for a Jedi would look ridiculous. So what Gav said makes a WHOLE lot of sense.

[ReaperFett]

And will they outlaw X-Wings and other craft with weaponary?

[AmazonBabe]

No... X-Wings are used by the NR. Jedi don't OWN X-Wings, persay, but that doesn't mean they aren't pilots.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

C'Mon council, go AND DO SOMETHING about it! I'm tired of bodies of government sitting around and waiting for people to tell them to do things. ;)

[Titus]

Hand held rail-gun = stoopid.

Usage isn’t even funny… how do you overcome the recoil here?



// But what about Eraser! I saw Arnold use TWO at ONCE!//

I saw Arnold perform surgery on his metal, android skeleton too.




[edit: do smilies make me look less abrasive? :) :) :) :) :) :) ]

[ReaperFett]

// But what about Eraser! I saw Arnold use TWO at ONCE!//

I saw Arnold perform surgery on his metal, android skeleton too.

Just because Eraser called a gun a rail gun, doesn't mean all rail guns are the same.


And of course, you tell me how blasters work, and how they can work, and how Lightsabres work, and THEN we'll talk about usage not even being funny :)

[Morgan Evanar]

Hand held rail-gun = stoopid.

Usage isn’t even funny… how do you overcome the recoil here? WHAT. The only recoil is the air being displaced by the slug leaving the barrel.

[Ka' el Darcverse]

Yes air being displaced at Mach 7. Though I don't really care one way or the other

[Droo]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
And will they outlaw X-Wings and other craft with weaponary?

Completely different context as lightsabers aren't much good in a fleet/space confrontation. Jedi wielding lightsabers are symbolic of wisdom and defense. Jedi armed to the teeth with a variety of rail guns and blasters are not.

[Titus]

Originally posted by Ka' el Darcverse
Yes air being displaced at Mach 7.


Almost.

For every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction.

The slug exits at a high velocity, there must be a high recoil as well. Not just the air displacement, that is a side effect of the slug flying through the air, not the firing of the weapon.

At the speed a bullet exits a slug gun of this type, you will have enormous recoil.

Rail-guns have been researched by the US military, and there are plenty of hobbyists who have built them, a google search will reveal aaalll...

I had a grand link to how lightsabers work (note, not a laser or light), and theforce.net technical commentaries have great theories on the workings of a turbo laser.

:) :) :)

[imported_Marcus]

Did you know Rail guns are canon? One appeared in AOTC? As well as other projectile weapons? Also, such weapons are within a decade or two of being fesible in real life - hand held gauss guns are creatable right now - they exhibit low recoil, with high impact energy with high firing speeds. Right now, you can built with common household materials, a 4m rail gun with a range of 100 km. It too has very low to no recoil.

Some people you know, do research and study these things and make sure they are logical, do-able and canon. :p

And as for Jedi having them.... lets say I doubt FMH will sell em to a Jedi. He'll be looking for more.... shadier customers.

(I'd also personally think just about all Jedi would shy away from things like this, anyway. After all, someone earlier said they are Force User killers, which is exactly what the NRSF range of weaponry was designed to do. Turn Sith into splat marks)

[Ryan Pode]

I forget who, but some company is designing a laser for the F-16.

[Titus]

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/212.web.stuff/Lars%20Tulip/Lars%20web%20project%20Folder/What.htm

That's a crappy link there, but it shows an actual rail gun. (three, in fact)

I didn't see a large slug gun in ATOC, but I do know they are canon, on the planetary defense scale. Infact, I R&D'd a Hypervelocity weapon for my group at another galaxy based off of the info.


To the OP, nice pic. I'll stop hijacking your thread now.

[imported_Marcus]

Oh, the reason a rail or gauss gun has little recoil against the body of the gun is that..... the forces of propulsion are not pushing on the gun itself, they are pushing against magnetic fields. I can not see how guass tech produces real recoil. Rail tech might though, though givent he driving force is current, I'm doubtful.

Saying that the bullet creates a shockwave recoil might be vaguely true, but in my understanding of physics, thats very unlikely to be an issue. Recoil is not created by the bullet's movement, it's created by the detonation of the propellant.

[Shanaria Fabool]

And of course, you tell me how blasters work, and how they can work, and how Lightsabres work, and THEN we'll talk about usage not even being funny

Ok Here is the lightsaber... I'm working on getting the blaster.

<a href=http://www.geocities.com/fabool/lightsaberspec.txt>Lightsaber Cutaway</a>

[Morgan Evanar]

You have to fab the ammunition, too, although thats a comparatively simple affair.

Also, SW has superconducting @ room temperature material. It makes a handheld magnetic slug launcher that much more trivial to make.

[Charley]

Originally posted by Marcus
Saying that the bullet creates a shockwave recoil might be vaguely true, but in my understanding of physics, thats very unlikely to be an issue. Recoil is not created by the bullet's movement, it's created by the detonation of the propellant.

Correct. Recoil is due to the expanding gas from ignited propellant. A ported pistol has openings in its bore to allow for this pressure to be deviated, thus reducing the recoil. A gauss weapon would suffer from none of these side-effects, sans the small propelling charge to get the round going.

[Titus]

Originally posted by Agent Charley
Correct. Recoil is due to the expanding gas from ignited propellant. A ported pistol has openings in its bore to allow for this pressure to be deviated, thus reducing the recoil.

...

Recoil is from the bullet resisting movement, not the propellant. Take a potato gun (everyone needs to build one IMO). Spray your hair-spray in there, and put a potato down the barrel. Make sure the potato doesn’t come flush all the way around.

Fire weapon.

See hairspray push potato out the barrel.

Do the same thing again, but put a potato in tight, no gaps around near the barrel.

Fire.

Feel feedback. See potato fly far.

Same propellant and explosion. The first time the propellant exploded, and exited easily through the gaps around the barrel, moving the potato a relatively small distance. The second time it had resistance, and thus built up pressure, which in turn pushed the potato, which in turn resisted, giving recoil.


I haven’t read up on gauss guns, anyone got any decent links? If it truly does have low recoil…

*gets a bajillion ideas*


btw, is there any chance a mod or admin could split the posts in this thread off into a different thread? I don’t want to encourage a hijack, but the discussion is interesting. Thanks. :)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Thread split. :)

[Force Master Hunter]

http://www.pskovinfo.ru/coilgun/indexe.htm

Real life coil or gauss gun. No noise, no recoil.

[Charley]

Originally posted by Titus
...

Recoil is from the bullet resisting movement, not the propellant. Take a potato gun (everyone needs to build one IMO). Spray your hair-spray in there, and put a potato down the barrel. Make sure the potato doesn’t come flush all the way around.

Fire weapon.

See hairspray push potato out the barrel.

Do the same thing again, but put a potato in tight, no gaps around near the barrel.

Fire.

Feel feedback. See potato fly far.

Same propellant and explosion. The first time the propellant exploded, and exited easily through the gaps around the barrel, moving the potato a relatively small distance. The second time it had resistance, and thus built up pressure, which in turn pushed the potato, which in turn resisted, giving recoil.


I haven’t read up on gauss guns, anyone got any decent links? If it truly does have low recoil…

*gets a bajillion ideas*


btw, is there any chance a mod or admin could split the posts in this thread off into a different thread? I don’t want to encourage a hijack, but the discussion is interesting. Thanks. :)

What?

Get out of this thread.

Don't come in here and talk about a potato gun, when I actually know what I'm talking about when it comes to firearms.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Titus
...

Recoil is from the bullet resisting movement, not the propellant. Take a potato gun (everyone needs to build one IMO). Spray your hair-spray in there, and put a potato down the barrel. Make sure the potato doesn’t come flush all the way around.

Fire weapon.

See hairspray push potato out the barrel.

Do the same thing again, but put a potato in tight, no gaps around near the barrel.

Fire.

Feel feedback. See potato fly far.

Same propellant and explosion. The first time the propellant exploded, and exited easily through the gaps around the barrel, moving the potato a relatively small distance. The second time it had resistance, and thus built up pressure, which in turn pushed the potato, which in turn resisted, giving recoil.




Your line of thought on this is kind of bass-ackwards...


Anyway...


A magnetic slug thrower would displace air, and displace it rather quickly, but also have high efficency ventilation ports to allow for gas dispersal. Recoil, while present, would be very, very small in comparison to that of a cartridge-based chemical propellant firearm.


And... as a ganeral request to everyone... can we not talk about lightsabre physics, please? If you want to try to describe them using rational real-world physics, I will summarily have to slap you around and demonstrate why they can't work. Just take them as part of science-fiction, and leave it at that. We'll all be much better off.

[Force Master Hunter]

The only recoil to really dail in is based on convervation of momentum and I'm pretty sure rail guns would be more affected with it, as the projectile needs to have physical contact on the rails. Big, truly powerful rail guns certainly are affected with recoil. A handheld one would have much less problems with converation of momentum, being the forces involves are smaller, as is the projectile.

A rail gun isn't silent either, esp if the projectile (and in most RL rail guns, thats quite a big shell) is accelerated beyond Mach 1. Which is why the NRSF rail gun is decribed as having quite a loud crack when fired. A true rail gun also has misfire problems so far, with the projectile sabots welding themselves to the rails.

Gauss guns would still have that same crack as the bullet is accelerated beyond mach 1, but with basically no moving parts, look to be much more usable. However, with the magnetics involved, there are field effects to be worried about and a distinct gyro scopic action when fired if the coils are not braced or mounted correctly. There is overheat problems too and coils look likethey can blow out.

So you have usable gauss and rail guns just using RL tech. Imagine what could be done with room temperature super conductors. I would not be surprised to see propellant guns begin to disappear this century and gauss or rail guns take over as the military gun of choice.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

That's actually a bit scary. :)

[Darth Viscera]

anyone ever heard of a carbide gun?

[Morgan Evanar]

Yeah, but I can't/don't remember what they're about. A ceramic barrel and or ceramic jacketed rounds would pretty much take care of the "melting" issue.

[Force Master Hunter]

It's the coils that melt and burn out on Gauss guns, due to the energy put into them to produce the driving current. The barrel / bullets are fine. BUT, that's with tech availible now. SW tech, that would be a relative non issue, due to super conductors, I guess

(Psssst - remeber the bullet has to be ferrous, else mag field wont work or be less effective. You could not cover the round in a non ferrous covering either for the same reason. Non ferrous / non conductive barrel would be okay, in fact probably would be best)

[Titus]

Originally posted by Agent Charley
What?

Get out of this thread.

Don't come in here and talk about a potato gun, when I actually know what I'm talking about when it comes to firearms.

Thank you for your informative reply Mr. Charley, because of your detailed rebuttal, I have been converted to your line of thinking. I will forever be indebted to you, oh great one.


Originally posted by Figrin D'an
Your line of thought on this is kind of bass-ackwards...


No. Flawed perhaps, but not backwards.


Originally posted by Force Master Hunter
The only recoil to really dail in is based on convervation of momentum and I'm pretty sure rail guns would be more affected with it, as the projectile needs to have physical contact on the rails. Big, truly powerful rail guns certainly are affected with recoil. A handheld one would have much less problems with converation of momentum, being the forces involves are smaller, as is the projectile.

A rail gun isn't silent either, esp if the projectile (and in most RL rail guns, thats quite a big shell) is accelerated beyond Mach 1. Which is why the NRSF rail gun is decribed as having quite a loud crack when fired. A true rail gun also has misfire problems so far, with the projectile sabots welding themselves to the rails.

Gauss guns would still have that same crack as the bullet is accelerated beyond mach 1, but with basically no moving parts, look to be much more usable. However, with the magnetics involved, there are field effects to be worried about and a distinct gyro scopic action when fired if the coils are not braced or mounted correctly. There is overheat problems too and coils look likethey can blow out.

So you have usable gauss and rail guns just using RL tech. Imagine what could be done with room temperature super conductors. I would not be surprised to see propellant guns begin to disappear this century and gauss or rail guns take over as the military gun of choice.

Now THAT’S what I’m talking about. Thanks Mr. FMH.

The larger the projectile on a rail gun, the longer the range and the larger the feedback (recoil). Hand held weapons would by their nature be forced to use very small slugs; anything big would knock the user back (as well as drain tremendous amounts of energy, but in SW I don’t think we need to worry about energy drain) Smaller slugs also have a more limited range.

To address my potato-gun post, if you please. You will note, the only thing wrong with the post is the following:


Originally posted by Titus
which in turn pushed the potato, which in turn resisted, giving recoil. [/I]

Recoil does, yes, come directly (indirectly? Hmm) from the expulsion of gas from the barrel. I did some reading up, and discovered that my notion that recoil comes from the bullet is only partially true. Without the bullet to cause the gas to build up pressure, you have no recoil. My mistake was not following the idea through to completion. I was misinformed by a poor website, and didn’t bother to research further, my bad.


Originally posted by Force Master Hunter
http://www.pskovinfo.ru/coilgun/indexe.htm

Real life coil or gauss gun. No noise, no recoil.

I’m looking at that, and I’m wondering, do they truly get enough energy out of the double-a’s? I will have to look into this a bit more…

[Force Master Hunter]

If you use the proper step-up transformer, yes you can. A 12-v battery can give a spectacular amount of current if the correct transformer is used - your car is 12v, but the coils are often greater than 40,000 volts and a whole whack of current. I have in my drawer somewhere a tricked handheld radio that when the trick is switched on, will deliver 300 volts - that is generated out of a few capacitors, two AA- cells and the correct step-up transformer.

In the coil gun's case, you need to step up amps or current more than volts.

[Morgan Evanar]

(Psssst - remeber the bullet has to be ferrous, else mag field wont work or be less effective. You could not cover the round in a non ferrous covering either for the same reason. Non ferrous / non conductive barrel would be okay, in fact probably would be best) Read, comprehend, and then post. Ceramic jacketed. Last I checked magnets worked keen through wood, glass and ceramics. Furthermore, why would a ceramic barrel work, and jackets rounds not? You're obviously not thinking.

Why do you keep bringing up recoil? We've already explained its a non-factor.

[Charley]

Originally posted by Titus
Thank you for your informative reply Mr. Charley, because of your detailed rebuttal, I have been converted to your line of thinking. I will forever be indebted to you, oh great one.

...

To address my potato-gun post, if you please. You will note, the only thing wrong with the post is the following:

Recoil does, yes, come directly (indirectly? Hmm) from the expulsion of gas from the barrel. I did some reading up, and discovered that my notion that recoil comes from the bullet is only partially true. Without the bullet to cause the gas to build up pressure, you have no recoil. My mistake was not following the idea through to completion. I was misinformed by a poor website, and didn’t bother to research further, my bad.

My "detailed rebuttal" didn't need to be detailed, because as you mentioned, I hit the nail on the head precisely in my previous post. Ask ANY gun afficionado about recoil and you'll hear what I've said. The expanding gas does it all. Do you think it's magic that semiautomatic rifles recycle the bolt's position after each shot fired? Or maybe it's magic when an autoloader pistol's slide is thrown back and drawn up after every trigger pull. That's a substantial amount of force, the kinetic energy of which is captured and used to work some high-resistance machinery in an instant. Go ahead and rack an autoloader pistol to get an idea of it. That is a very stiff spring you're working against. Also, compare an autoloader to a revolver of the same caliber. Is it voodoo that makes the autoloader have less recoil? No, the autoloader is diverting the expanding gas.

[Ka' el Darcverse]

More physics less venom you two, the debate is quite interesting enough without the resorting to name calling and sarcasm.

[Force Master Hunter]

Originally posted by Morgan Evanar
Read, comprehend, and then post. Ceramic jacketed. Last I checked magnets worked keen through wood, glass and ceramics. Furthermore, why would a ceramic barrel work, and jackets rounds not? You're obviously not thinking.

Why do you keep bringing up recoil? We've already explained its a non-factor.

:p to you, becuase I was thinking right and understood. There is no need for a ceramic coating. The magnetic effect works best if you maximise surface area, you maximise the "push" You have reduced your availible surface area. You also added useless weight.

as I understand it, the best projectiles are drilled in the back, to hollow out the projectile. To, I believe, maximise the effect of the mag field. Coating the bullet with plastics or cermaics has a direct result on firing efficency. As the bullet never actually touches the barrel after initial injection into the coil assemblies, there is no need for the performance reductions of a jacketed bullet.

An insulated barrel would be best so as not to distrupt the field effect like a ferrous barrel could (I could also think of a safety issue if a coil fails and leaks current into the barrel) BUT the barrel assembly, from what it appears to be, would be best in the config of Insulator/coil/insulator/coil......, the coil exposed to the projectile.

I can stand to be corrected, but right now I just dont see what a cermaic coat can do, other than degregate performance.

[Ka' el Darcverse]

So are the magnetic fields polar to the projectile or the same charge, ie to they attract or repel?

[Force Master Hunter]

http://www.oz.net/%7Ecoilgun/mark2/resultfiringtube.htm

Ahh, someone who did the experiment. He concludes plastic barrels work best and ferrous (conductive) ones degrade performance as the affect the field.

http://www.coilgun.eclipse.co.uk/test_projectiles.html

Projectile material tests, with different machining types.

http://www.coilgun.eclipse.co.uk/projectile_design.html

Theory of projectile design. If you note, Powdered Matrix Projectile theory is thought to help stop eddy currents and allow the bullet to accept rifling. However, it is mentioned that it is as I said - the plastic does not aid bullet velocity, it is only used for bullet stability. Other methods are discussed that appear better.

http://www.coilgun.eclipse.co.uk/electromagnetic_basics_1.html

Ka'el's question answered. Somewhere in that :x

http://www.coilgun.eclipse.co.uk/coilgun_fundamentals_1.html

Actually, try that. It's in pretty pictures

[Titus]

Ooo, very nice FMH.


On railguns, has anyone seen the computer mockup of what NASA is hoping to do sometime in the future? They want to build something like a bullet train, strap a glider/space shuttle on to the car, and propel it up to speed and launch the glider into space.