Harry Potter book burnings

[Jedi Master Carr]

Man do some people need to get a life

Greenville-- It's not uncommon to see a pastor leading a Sunday prayer denouncing evil. But this Sunday at the Jesus Non-denominational Church in Greenville, the congregation was taking action. They were trying to save their souls by tearing up the devil and burning his words.

"I don't want anyone to go to hell, and the bible says if people use sorcery and witchcraft they will go to hell," says Pastor Tommy Turner.

He says stories like Harry Potter that glorify wizardry and sorcery will lead people to accept and believe in Satan. So he organized a book burning. Parishoners like Linda Stubblefield are happy to see the fire glowing bright. She says she wants to protect her four kids.

"They're learning what they see and what they read," she says.

The younger members of the church agree too. Kristi Eastman says many books teach that sorcery is okay.

"I'm very strongly against witchcraft... because I know it's not of God and I do everything God wants."

Tasia Kisscorni has been teaching English at East Kentwood High for 24 years. She teaches students to respect people's beliefs and accept differing viewpoints. "If you don't like something don't let your kids read it, that's fine. But you shouldn't make a public to do of it," Kisscorni says.

Pastor Tommy Turner says he will make a public to do .. to save souls.

"The bible tells me not to judge, but to stand up for what's right." Some of the parishoners also burned music cd's like N'sync. They say the music is not glorifying God, so they don't need it

I am sorry but those people are just morons I won't go to hell for reading Harry Potter. If I did I would rather be in Hell then. These idiotic Christians doing this need to things that are more productive like feeding the homless and helping people. Not burning books like the Nazis.

[imported_Marcus]

These idiotic Christians doing this need to things that are more productive like feeding the homless and helping people. Not burning books like the Nazis.

Not idiots, because there are things we all do that are idiotic.

BUT

You are right about book burning being pointless.and about what they could be really doing rather than time wasting

[Sejah Haversh]

Idioditc people, not just Chrisians. There are more groups than just some small pockets of over-zealous Christians doing these burnings. And they never amount to anything.

It is not the faith that drives these acts, but a radical beleif. I could say I don't like the writing style, and that they are a horrid mardk on the face of the English landguage, if I care dot do so, but I don't. Though I could rally people behind that cause to burn them. Or maybe I don't like stories about boys, and I could get all kinds of feminists to back my cause.

The point is, it's not why it's done, just that anythign going to that extreme is no longer holding up a more moral belief, but a personal vendetta.

[Charley]

DAMN THOSE CHRISTIANS...OH WAI

[Dasquian Belargic]

Some of the parishoners also burned music cd's like N'sync.

:lol At least they can do one thing right :D

[Jedi Master Carr]

Its not the Christians that bother me, it is the idiotic acts these guys are doing. First off burning books accomplish nothing but make you look like Nazis to me that hurts their image. Second there is so much good they can be doing and this does no good.

[Admiral Lebron]

Someone once said you should leave if they start burning books, cause soon they'll start burning people. :\

[Arya Ravenwing]

I'd hate to find one group of atheists doing something medieval like burning books, and then saying "Aren't atheists dumb!?"

[Sorreessa Tarrineezi]

what bugs me is what purpose does it serve? none, just people going, "I think this is wrong so must get rid of it."

[Darth Viscera]

If burning entertainment books & CDs is the apex of their intolerance, then it seems rather harmless. These people aren't going to get some swords together and go decapitating readers of Harry Potter. They can burn all the books they want, so long as they don't toss a human into the fire. There's a lot more notable things going on that are prime examples of religious intolerance. For instance, if you sneeze or fart while you're circling that rock thing at Mecca every year, the islamic guards slice off your head on the spot. No kidding. With swords. And the billion or so muslims don't mind, they don't challenge the islamic guards' right to murder someone summarily, they just look on and do nothing. That's a lot scarier than the Nazis. The Nazis would have killed to have those kind of numbers and that degree of fervency.

[Ryan Pode]

They did kill to try to get those numbers...

[Darth Viscera]

The Nazis would never have been able to get 1 billion willing, enthusiastic members of the party.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Come on that is wrong the Nazis killed 12 million people in the death camps (6 Million Jews the rest were Gypsies, the mentality ill, communists, resisters, Jehovian Witness, homosexuals and any other group they didn't agree with). And most of that occured between 1941-1945 I say they did a pretty good job in terms of killing. They were the evilist group ever, IMO, and to me book burnings symoblizes that hatred and intolerance. Still my main point was there are so many good things they should be doing but these stupid fanatics don't think they say Harry Potter is evil and it deserves to be destroyed. To me that is stupid and about the comment about if Athiests doing this I say the same thing I just despise book Burnings. Books are precious in my mind and they shouldn't be destroyed.

[Charley]

I really couldn't care. Books aren't the precious things they once were in middle ages, where they were expensive, took forever to write or even copy, and were extremely hard to replace. The stuff is now stored digitally, printed for pennies, and sold for dollars.

It's trivial. People are cool with burning the American flag and get their panties in a wad over book burnings. It's kinda a double standard there.

I treat these types of people with the equal amount of loathing, but seeing as they aren't committing genocide or poking somebody with a rusty nail or whatever, I really can't be bothered. Call me if they do, and maybe there will be a beating.

[Senator Kensington]

I think the scariest aspect of all this is how literally they interpret the Christian bible. I know that in Judaism, the Torah is up for interpretation and argument... that's what yeshivas are for. This is just plain dumb.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I disagree there Charlie I prefer books over digital anyday. I can't read a book on a computer without straining my eyes and I don't think most people do either. To me books are part of the human legacy and I don't like seeing them destroyed. Second as I have said several times I also find it stupid and a waste of engery there is so many things these people could be doing to helping society. And regardless of what you think about Potter, burning those book don't accomplish anything.

[Daiquiri Van-Derveld]

I dont think GOD saying 'ye shall not suffer a witch to live' is up for debate. He also says that witchcraft, etc is an abomination. Somehow I dont think theres a loose translation there.

This is where they are coming from. I dont think theyre being zealots or idiots. I think they believe they are carrying out Gods law.

Harry Potter (the books and movies) does 'show' kids that witchcraft can be fun and harmless and can be used for good. IMO, it all comes down to whether you believe the what the Bible says.

[Darth Viscera]

Why are you so sweet on these books all of a sudden that you can't stand for them to be burned? Are they signed hardcover first editions or something? They're probably paperbacks, you know. If it makes you feel any better, their monetary value is negligable after retail sale.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think that is silly none of these kids are going around practicing magic. Also this magic is the fantasy Merlin, LOTR type which is impossible to perform. Also I am a Catholic and I don't take that stuff too literaly it is talking about the devil and I have read once Harry asking the devil for help or any other character in the book. To me it is makebelieve if you think Harry is evil than you must think Star Wars is, LOTR, all Fairy Tales, King Arthur stories, Chronicles of Narnia, the Wizard of Oz and just about all fantasy because all deal with magic or supernatural powers to some extent and to me is insane. I don't see God sending people to hell for reading about magic. Also about the books DV, I just think it is a shame to do it and reminds of the book burnings in Germany in the 30's. Second that isn't my only point I think these people could do more good to help the homeless and stuff, and ironically the only thing they are actually doing is helping for more people to buy the book. Whenever you burn or ban something more people will read it.

[Charley]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
I disagree there Charlie I prefer books over digital anyday. I can't read a book on a computer without straining my eyes and I don't think most people do either. To me books are part of the human legacy and I don't like seeing them destroyed. Second as I have said several times I also find it stupid and a waste of engery there is so many things these people could be doing to helping society. And regardless of what you think about Potter, burning those book don't accomplish anything.

|I

Content of books = stored digitally, and printed onto cheap paper and bound together with more cheap paper.

You managed to utterly miss the point.

Also, I'm pretty sure you can keep the homeless warm on a cold night by burning Harry Potter books ^_^;

[JMK]

and printed onto cheap paper and bound together with more cheap paper. Wow! I've been working in the printing and binding industry for 3 years now, and I never knew paper was so dirt cheap and that books are so easily collated and bound together. I should mention that to my boss, instant promo!

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I would go so far as to say there is a significant difference between the witchcraft used in the Potter books, and the powers seen used by Gandalf in LotR.

[Daiquiri Van-Derveld]

Carr, I was just stating whats in the Bible. Im not saying I agree or disagree.....just pointing it out :)

[Pierce Tondry]

Personally, I don't believe witchcraft is real. I think it is aged superstition. I treat anything that mentions magical or unusual powers as rather harmless entertainment anyway.

Insofar as these people burning the books have paid for them, I see nothing wrong with them putting their own property to the torch. I think it is very foolish, though.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Its actually irnonic that they are funding Rowling still huh :p Dalquiri, I wasn't getting on you I just don't take the bible that literally being Catholic we don't look at it that way. Actually the Catholic Church has said that Harry Potter is harmless and are actually good books. Most demoniations don't care really its just certain fundamentalists, IMO.

[Ryla Relvinian]

People are cool with burning the American flag...

They are?

[imported_Marcus]

Why not, it's a legitimate form of protest. And come to think of it, book burning is legitimate protest too.

[Ryla Relvinian]

Well, I don't think legitimacy is really the issue, whether regarding books or flags being burnt in protest. The issue is ignorance.

And besides, I still think that you should have to get a veteran's permission to burn a flag. It was their buddies who fought and died to keep it flying, after all. :\

[Daiquiri Van-Derveld]

If people are cool with it, Marcus, I dont think its the Americans. Im not sure what came of it, but there was legislation pending on making it a crime here in the states. I hope it passes.

[Force Master Hunter]

Banning flag burning as a legitimate form of political protest is ridiculous. A flag being burnt means you are protesting the values you percieve are behind that flag. The peopel burnign the books are protesting what they see as the values that the book represents. when you think of it like that, it becomes somewhat clearer why. I for one would deeply love to burn every porno mag I could find these days, simply because of the LACK of values porn represents. I am not ignorant of the issues, I am, simply stating my disgust with said issues.

I personally believe that as there is a God, so there must be witchcraft. I have personally looked into the Potter issue and my opinion is that Rowling is in fact more or less taking the mickey out of witchcraft and portrays wizards and witchs, in the main as somewhat stupid and emphasises other values as being worthy of chasing - not power as power is portrayed as corrupting. Thence, it's not actually all that bad as far as I'm concerned.


It was their buddies who fought and died to keep it flying, after all.

No, the reason people fight and die for their flag is because old men create arguments with other old men. The old men convince young men the fight is worthwhile. They send young men to die in their place. That is a cynical view, but that is in fact what war really is. Only the winners of a war (and I say that loosely, because there are no winners in war) can decide if that war was worthwhile.

A flag is not scared, it is not worth dying for and even in Aust or the USA, what the flag stands for can vary wildly. Even in the USA, the flag can stand for perscution, unjust arrest and poverty if you talk to some people. To others it means nothign at all. To others, it's a religious symbol.

Making a law that a flag cant be burnt is dangerously close to turning patriotism into a religion. And Religion (sadly), causes wars and suffering.

Thence, I firmly believe that flag burning, along with book burning can and is a just and understandable form of free expression that should be understood as such.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Marcus
Why not, it's a legitimate form of protest. And come to think of it, book burning is legitimate protest too.

Burning flag burners should be a legitimate form of protest. Flag burning is on the same level of disrespectitude as walking up to a random senior citizen and smacking her in the face with a marital aid.

Let's put it this way: I'm not too keen on religion, but I don't take that lack of keenness as an excuse to wander over to your church and burn down your statue of Christ on his cross. To do so would be the act of a thoroughly hateful individual, not a cynical one. They'd lock me up and swallow the key, and I wouldn't blame them.

[Force Master Hunter]

No, it is not. The latter is a criminal called assault. Dont go diluting this discussion with such ridiculous analogies.

I would point out you are indeed entirely free to burn a statue of Christ on a cross. You are also free to pee, crap or use it as a sexual aid too. If that is what you wish to do to show your disgust at what the christian Church stands for, then I actually think it IS your right to do so. Do it however to one you have bought by your own money, because taking one is theft and the burning is wilful damage.

Get this right - not every person who despoils an object in protest is hateful. Most, in fact believe they have a perfectly acceptible and resonable grievience that jsutifies that action.

I would point out flags were being burnt in the 60's to protest the lack of human rights Blacks in the USA had and also in opposition to Vietnam - such protests which had some relavence and rationality. Do you think flag burning in expression of a justified grievence liek both of those are wrong?

Whaty if the grievience was percieved, or pointed at the Government, not at the people? Most flag burnings are directed as a statement of political protest at a government and NOT a hateful act.

[Droo]

The book burning doesn't bother me too much, I try not to let things like that get to me these days. Burning objects in protest is pretty much fruitless aside from point that it has a symbolic meaning to emphasise your protest and is a good way to get attention and publicity for your protest. Conversely, it might equally put yourself and other protestors in bad light for doing something destructive like that, it could make the protest seem immature which is understandable. Personally, it's the argument behind the protest thar I find absurd.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Force Master Hunter
I would point out flags were being burnt in the 60's to protest the lack of human rights Blacks in the USA had and also in opposition to Vietnam - such protests which had some relavence and rationality. Do you think flag burning in expression of a justified grievence liek both of those are wrong?

Yes, it's wrong. A flag is an object of reverance, for obvious reasons. I can't think of anything that would be suitable justification for burning anyone's flag. Even in civilized war, you don't burn newly captured enemy flags. People do a lot of things to express their grievances. They throw molotov cocktails, exact mob justice, burn flags and engage in the destruction of property. Because of what a flag represents, they simply don't have the right to burn it. It's not theirs to burn. It was wrong in the 60's, and it's wrong now.


Whaty if the grievience was percieved, or pointed at the Government, not at the people? Most flag burnings are directed as a statement of political protest at a government and NOT a hateful act.

I reject your pretense that somehow the government and the people are separable, after all in a democratic society the government derives its power from the consent of the people.

[imported_Marcus]

You are not in a Democracy, you are in a Republic, Government and the People are seperateable.

You are also treating the flag as if it is a religious icon. That is ridiculous. A flag means absolutly nothing in the end, it is nothing more than a piece of coloured cloth. You can argue that there is meaning behind it, but that meaning is arbitary and not fixed. I do not find the reasons a flag should be revered as obvious and self evident.

To me, saying that a flag burning is a deseration is just as stupid as many find book burning, yet the reasons behind burning both are the one and the same.

I will also point out, the USA flag seems to stand for freedom of speech - burning the flag in protest is political speech. You ban flag buring, you are going against what others think the flag stands for.

Catch 22.

[Droo]

Originally posted by Marcus
I will also point out, the USA flag seems to stand for freedom of speech - burning the flag in protest is political speech. You ban flag buring, you are going against what others think the flag stands for.

Quoted for great truth.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well maybe this will change your mind about this Church these guys are weirdos

GREENVILLE, Mich. -- Librarians and clergy at other churches expressed mixed emotions after learning that members of the Jesus Non-denominational Church burned "Harry Potter" books and copies of the Book of Mormon and non-King James Version Bibles.

Other books, magazines, posters, compact discs and movies that members believe do not promote God also went up in smoke Sunday, as more than 50 people gathered outside the church for the fiery display. Among the incinerated items were Shania Twain's album "The Woman in Me" and the Dan Aykroyd movie "Coneheads."

Church members who sporadically shouted "Hallelujah," "Thank you, God" and "Burn, devil, burn" said the fire was divinely inspired.

"This was definitely by the Holy Spirit," said Bonnie Conran, a member and office executive at the church.

The church's bishop, the Rev. T.D. Turner Sr., said the congregation "will burn 'Harry Potter' books and other witchcraft items to let the world know that there are true followers of Jesus Christ who will not call evil good."

"We at Jesus Non-denominational Church refuse to allow Satan to take the minds of our children," Turner said. "We will do all that is in us to stand and hold up a standard of righteousness, and we will win."

"It's important for children to know that Harry Potter is witchcraft," said Jill Turner, the bishop's wife. "It really afflicts their minds."

The Rev. Mark Shaw, senior pastor at Calvary Baptist, dismissed the book burning as a misguided publicity stunt.

"What kind of an image are they setting in the community?" Shaw asked.

Toni Jagger, director of the Alvah N. Belding Library in nearby Belding, said she is always disturbed by reports of book burnings.

"Burning books is such an extreme," Jagger said. "Books don't have to be read if people don't want to read them. That's one of the wonderful liberties we have in America."

As long as the book burning does not prevent readers from accessing those titles or other literature, the congregation can do as it pleases, said Tara Conaway, director of the Flat River Community Library.


I mean burning other people's bibles? They must think they are the only religion and beilieve the rest of us our going to Hell. I can only imagine what they think of us Catholics. Most likely Mary Worshipers and perhaps even Satantists.

[Marcus Telcontar]

I dont care if they seem weird. They have the right for public speech liek this and if they are conviced a show like this is necessary, then that's fine. They have that right of free speech and book burning is indeed free speech.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well luckily being weirdos they get ignored everybody scoffs at them and this is the only attention they will ever get. I am sure of that. Also I don't see burning books really as free speech I mean the Nazis did it and I sure don't see that them making a stand of Free Speech.

[Force Master Hunter]

Church group != Nazis. That's a needless and to me, pointless comparision. There is a true world of difference between this group and the Nazis.

[Charley]

Well this thread ended well, like I predicted. Good form.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am not comparing them to the Nazis just saying that Book Burning is a symbol of what the Nazis did at least that is what I think of when I see Book Burning. Really this group is just an odd bunch and it seems the other demoniantions in the area think so (in the article none of them support them). Really they do this out of ignorance people that burn books usually never read them.

[Figrin D'an]

I'd like to point out, for all of those arguing about the legitimacy and future legality of flag burning, that burning/cremation is part of the ceremony used to retire old and worn US flags. Though there are small idiosyncracies to be found in different ceremonies, the basis involves the flag being seperated into sections (white stripes, red stripes, blue star field), a few words spoken about the symbolism of each part, and placement upon a burning pyre. This type of thing is done by the military, police and fire departments, the Boy Scouts, etc., and is perfectly legitimate, as well as being considered "proper."

This is part of the reason, along with the freedom of speech element, why flag burning will not be outlawed.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

...and non-King James Version Bibles. :rolleyes

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah I didn't understand that either I guess other bibles must be fake :p Also I don't like the book of the Mormon but they have a right to their beliefs.

[Charley]

As we also have a right to vociferously disapprove of it.

Honestly, the burnings aren't government sanctioned in either direction...so I fail to see your connotation with the Nazi book burnings. There really isn't that much in common to it when you look at it objectively.

[Jedi Master Carr]

It just reminds me of it that is all, I never compared them directly with the Nazis. Book Burnings just are associated with the Nazi movement so whenever anybody burns books I think of that. And what do you disaprove of the Mormons?? I didn't get that first line Charlie. As I said I don't agree with the Mormon position (mostly about the whole Jesus visting the Central American Indian thing but thats another matter) but I don't mind them they can practice whatever they want, as long as Human sacrifice isn't involved what do I care.

[Charley]

I mean that yes, group A has a right to do whatever they do, blah blah blah, but group B also has the right to express their angst against what group A is doing. It's an endless cycle, and it makes threads like this really unproductive and full of circular logic.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don't think this thread is unproductive as long as nobody starts flaming each other and so far everybody has been very reasonable. I actually like disagreeing with people, I probably should have been a lawyer :p

[JediBoricua]

My favorite burning is when a pastor in Texas started burning Beatle Records, after Lennon said they were bigger than Jesus.

If I recall correctly, the pastor was transmitting the burning through his radio stations, he was telling everyone to burn anything beatle related they had in their homes. But it seemed God favored the Beatles, and blam! lighting hit the radio station antena and none of it got out!

Freaking hilarious!

[Sanis Prent]

...and then Lennon gets assassinated, which just throws the monkeywrench of irony all into that.

[Darth Viscera]

gotta love that yellow submarine, though.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That is just too cruel Charlie, I don't think God decide to kill Lennon, that was that sicko came up with that all on his own.

[Charley]

Who knows? What I do know is that it is profoundly idiotic to claim yourself to be "bigger than Jesus" for both the implications of drawing down the ire of crazies and for the sheer fact of looking like a stupendous retard when you compare your 1960's craze to the single most influential driving force in Western Civilization for two thousand years.

But I don't claim to know what God's thinking. I just think that if you climb a mountain, drop your pants, point your derrier skyward and tell the Big Guy to "kiss my grits", you're probably liable for the unexpected calamity that is sure to befall you.

[imported_Marcus]

there's quite some truth in what Charley said. Amusing too.

[Jedi Master Carr]

As I remember Lenon said that in jest I don't think he truly ever meant it.

[Charley]

Only one person really knows and they're dead.

[Seteth Morters]

The book burning thing is wierd. it doesnt really accomplish anything, and doesnt really promote a very positive image for the Christian church at all. And if we took everything in the Bible literally we couldn't wear denim and leather together, couldnt eat rabbit (Deuteronomy 14:3), would have to cancel our debts every 7 years (Deut 15), stone to death any non-Christian (Deut 17:2) drunken youths would be stoned to death (deut 21:18) women could not wear trousers (deut 22:5), and no men in skirts either (Deut 22:5) no children born out of wedlock would be considered Christian (deut 23:2) and no castrated males would either (deut 23)

in fact, read all of Deuteronomy, theres a whole long list of laws which would be incredibly hard to follow. So if we're going for literal here, hands up all women who never ever ever wear trousers?

***

Second prod: promoting your own ideas doesn't bother me, so perhaps saying "Do not read about witchcraft" and letting people take it as they please is ok by me. Burning books, in a clear symbol of lashing out at something is a different matter altogether.

Thats why people wearing pentagrams don't bother me, but upside-down Crucifixes do.



[hops down off the soapbox, looking vaguely embarrassed at the longest speech she's ever made] :)

[Charley]

Good job doing your homework on Deuteronomy. Now read the other books, particuarly the New Testament ones :)

I'm not siding with the crazies on this. The bible is an interpetive book. You read, keep your mind clean, and allow the Holy Spirit in for inspiration.

(more or less, the hippy non-denomenational way of explaining it all)

[Seteth Morters]

thanks for the recognition of the work :)

yea, tagging through the New Testament overturns that, but I just hit a goldmine of rules and couldn't quite stop myself.



"You read, keep your mind clean, and allow the Holy Spirit in for inspiration."


Most sensible thing I've heard all year.

[Admiral Lebron]

I disagree with the New Testement.

[Charley]

Congratulations, Lebron. Do you want a medal?

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well he is Jewish and I think he would.

[Charley]

Considering that this discussion has zero correlation with Lebron's religion, I really don't care.

[Admiral Lebron]

Sure.

[Charley]

Sorry, fresh out of medals. However, you do qualify for the "paper cup of irrelevance" award.

[Darth Viscera]

That had better be a Dixie cup.

[Wei Wu Wei]

The book burning thing bothers me too. Sure, the Bible says not to do witchcraft. But reading books that don't even include real witchcraft would'nt honestly cause you to practice the real thing.

The burning of non-King James Bibles is sick. I don't care what translation the book is in, the Holy Bible is the Holy Bible. God was not glorified when they did that.

Actually, I find the King James Version of the Bible to be one of the worst and most difficult translations to read.

But it's like this one old lady on the news said, "If the King James is good enough for Saint Paul, it's good enough for me."

Why must people called by the name of God make such idiots out of themselves? Why??

[Droo]

What is this thread necromancy?

[Ryan Pode]

I still want my paper cup award... :grumble

[Jedi Master Carr]

Heh I know this thread is almost a year old. I know I started it :p