I have a Force-related question.

[Zeke]

Would it be at all possible to use the Force to stop a person/animal's movement?

[Padd]

I believe it could be possible if the person was strong enough in the Force but I am not entirely sure.

[Charley]

Yes, but it depends on how you mean.

[Zeke]

I know that if a guy was running I could use a Force Push/Pull to stop his momentum, and that I could float someone with telekinesis to keep them from jumping or moving without the aid of the Force. However, the thing I'm thinking about is something more like Force-induced paralysis, or stopping time for one person. That way they couldn't move no matter what they did or tried to do. It wouldn't be a permanent thing, more like a good five or ten seconds that a character could use to try and escape another one.

[Charley]

Paralysis is possible, time stopping isn't.

Jubei can induce paralysis by placing his hands on them. Its part of his skill focus as a healer.

[Zeke]

Paralysis, then. The idea works either way. Jubei's skill requires contact, right? Any chance of doing this from a distance?

[Charley]

possibly, but certainly nothing done without a great deal of skill.

[Zeke]

Naturally. Just wanted to be sure that it was possible at all before I go out working to achieve it. I'm pretty sure I had another question like this, but I've forgotten it. ^_^; Thanks for the help Charley.

[Peter McCoy]

Where's the rule that says time-stopping isn't possible? Or time-manipulation for that matter?

[Shawn]

The rule of common sense. Simply put, I don't think it would be possible for one to manipulate anything like that: Most Force powers can be explained with the redirection of energy (Force Push, Pull, Lightning, etc). There's no logical way to manipulate time itself in that manner.

Moreover, I can't seem to come up with a situation where stopping time wouldn't be god-moding.

[Peter McCoy]

I just think it's wrong to say somebody can't do something they want to do, especially when its concerning fan-fiction. Maybe somebody wants to do Force-speed in a different way, and so everybody else is moving just a little bit slower. I can't see how that's God-moding since its the same basic effect as traditional Force-speed.

[Charley]

Because one affects pretty much a localized area, and the other would have to affect the entire universe?

[Peter McCoy]

If its for such a small change, whats the problem? Its not going to cause some catastrophe for the roleplaying community.

[Charley]

because it defies all scope of realism? To alter time, you've got to do the job across the board...otherwise you create some kind of discontinuity bubble.

[Peter McCoy]

The Force defies all scope of realism. But since this is fiction we can use things that aren't real. Granted, if I wanted to change an aspect of time, such as erase a species fro history, that would have to be applied and recognised and accepted board-wide (not to mention god-moding to a degree). But if all a character wants to do is make himself move faster by means of slowing time down by a fraction long enough to get away from something, thats not something the entire board would need to be notified of.

[Charley]

Concordantly, you should be able to use a Jedi mind trick on everybody in the universe at the same time if that's the case.

It defies all common sense and fair play, which is the only applicable realism here.

[Garrett Blade]

I don't want to get into an argument so I won't pursue this any further after this post. I just think its unfair to say somebody can't do something in a case like this. As long as everyone in the roleplay doesn't have a problem with it, I don't see why it can't be done.

[Sorsha Kasajian]

Simply because temporal powers are very high on the scale in any RP. Fanfiction is one thing, because it's self-contained. Although the RP occurs here in a written form, it's still an RPG. There is a thing called game balance, and bringing in temporal abilities would would throw it off.

[Shawn]

I can't see how that's God-moding since its the same basic effect as traditional Force-speed.Because there is a very large difference between moving faster and stopping time completely.

You say that you don't see how we (and I mean that in a general way) can govern what a roleplayer can and can't do. But god-moding is against the rules in order to keep balance in the game we all play. So we already do govern what can and can't be done.

Stopping time is a little bit more than simply moving faster than everyone else. It's impossible to explain and gives any person using it an unfair advantage. I also personally believe that it is beyond the scope of any Force user.

If you wanted to stop time in an RP in the Storytelling forum, where everyone involved has agreed to it, then that would be allowed. But solely because the Storytelling forum is more for fan-fiction than straight-out roleplays. Anything that happens there does not necessarily have to affect anyone outside of any particular thread. So, you could stop time in a thread there, but don't expect that anyone not participating in the thread would have noticed it.

I hope I was clear enough on that.

[Dove]

In my honest opinion, I don't see why anyone would NEED time-manipulating powers. Why not find an alternative method that's 1) more reasonable and 2) more interesting. Try using your head rather than saying, " hmm.... I wish I could just stop everything, so I'll freeze time." It might make it a slightly more difficult task, but try building up original skills rather than taking god-like powers because you can't think of anything else.

So unless you're in a spaceship going in hyperdrive, you shouldn't be able to shave any seconds on your life. That is, unless, you could run close to the speed of light. But in that case, you wouldn't need to stop time.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I'm going to put my foot down here and now and tell you that you can't RP that you can go back in time. Although I will allow you to go FORWARD in time, as long as you do so one second at a time, just like everyone else. :D

There are certain things that do not belong in the SW universe, and time travel is one of them.

:mneh

[Pierce Tondry]

I say we build Agent Charley a robotic body and send him back in time to kill whoever tries to time travel.

I'm of the opinion that the Force has always been more of a mystical thing with physical applications, rather than something that science can out-and-out explain. Being able to do things like what Zeke is seeking to accomplish ought to be quite possible, and from a distance, with a moderate (read veteran Knight) level of training IMO.

[Droo]

RCP. Time manipulation != time travel

[imported_Marcus]

Oh, so that's how all those god Moders achieve 40 attacks and expect you to stand there and take it. :p

Whatever you call it, it's still not possible within SW.

[Droo]

Originally posted by Marcus

Whatever you call it, it's still not possible within SW.

That's been clarified now. I personally have no problem with that ruling and agree with it. But I don't think Peter would be happy with people completely misinterpretting his meaning of altering time, in the sense of speeding it up or slowing it down, he didn't mention anything about time travel or altering time lines. That does need to be clarified.

[Charley]

if anything, altering time would be far more outlandish than to travel through it, IMO.

What's harder? Swimming across the Red Sea, or parting it?

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Dru, I realize that, but I was just making an additional point. ;)

edit: My additional point being that yes, we can tell people what they can't do in an RP. That's the whole point of being a mod and trying to stop godmoding. Stopping time, time travel, or other temporal disturbances of a similar nature would all catagorically IMO fall immediately under godmoding.

Storytelling has already been covered by someone else. :)

[Ishan Shade]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
There are certain things that do not belong in the SW universe, and time travel is one of them.
:mneh

Uh-huh. Nicely put.

[Droo]

LD: If all participating parties involved in Roleplay X agree to time travel, time manipulation, volcanic belches and spontanious combustion, however slim a possibility that will be then a mod can't simply walk in and stop it if there have been no complaints or problems.

[Shawn]

We generally don't step in unless we receive a complaint, true. But it's not allowed in the roleplaying forum. Roleplaying threads are open, which means anyone can join in at any time. Storytelling is a different matter.

[Peter McCoy]

Okay, I said I wasn't going to post in here again but its annoyed me now. Who said time-travel/time-manipulation/whatever you want to call it doesn't belong in the Star Wars universe? Who, besides a group of fan-fictioners/roleplayers/writers/people having fun, said you can't do it and it has no place here?

And if the answer I get is "The SWFans/The administrators/the mods say so" - then thats basically dictating what people can and can't do without discussion.

[TheHolo.Net]

Sure looks like a discussion to me.

EDIT: Justification as to my saying it looks like one:

1. More than one staff member stated the reasoning behind the decision.
2. At no time did a mod simply say. "The Mods/staff says so."
3. The topic wasn't closed upon the decision being reached.

I could probably come up with more points, but am pressed for time and must head off to tech school. See ya.

[Peter McCoy]

The main problem with this is that people are classing this power/ability as God-moding. I personally believe that it is in no-way God-moding, given the other things that can be done in the Star Wars universe. I don't know whether there's a clear definition for God-moding with regards to roleplaying. If there is, please tell me.

[TheHolo.Net]

It is an impossibility to have every individual completely agree with any thought another may have. Simple fact.

I really must go now, :wave

[Morgan Evanar]

The main problem with this is that people are classing this power/ability as God-moding. I personally believe that it is in no-way God-moding, given the other things that can be done in the Star Wars universe. I don't know whether there's a clear definition for God-moding with regards to roleplaying. If there is, please tell me. That basically means an awful lot of us, who are both on the staff and not on the staff, think the ability to manipulate time at all is rot.

You're throwing rubbish at the staff
I don't know whether there's a clear definition for God-moding with regards to roleplaying. If there is, please tell me. to essentialy sidestep the issue that time manipulation is something that borders on the absurd, according to other roleplayers.

Say it with me: TIME MANINPULATION BORDERS ON THE IMPOSSIBLE.

[Peter McCoy]

Only if you say this with me:

Force Storms, Force Lightning, Telekinesis, Pyrokinesis, Necromancy, Affect mind, Translocation, Shapeshifting and all other Star Wars wonders border on the impossible.

[Morgan Evanar]

Force Storms, - never seen it used.
Force Lightning, - static electricty. Energy discharge. I know a family that screws up television sets if they hold hands and touch the screen.
Telekinesis, - eh, don't see what the big deal is.
Pyrokinesis, - heat energy, controlled. so?
Necromancy, - unpossible, only a few people have tried and have been repeatedly bashed for it.
Affect mind, - I don't see why this is a big deal.
Translocation, - very difficult, acknowledged to be so.
Shapeshifting - species specific, or illusionary.
and all other Star Wars wonders border on the impossible, but not anywhere near compared to screwing with time.

[Peter McCoy]

It is an impossibility to have every individual completely agree with any thought another may have. Simple fact.


Very true. Fair enough, I admit defeat.

But I've never been bashed for necromancy.

[Charley]

:headbash @ Pete

:cool

[Morgan Evanar]

Never seen you do it, and the person who I did see do it went completely overboard. The individual in question was bashed a fair bit for godmoding.

[Peter McCoy]

Touché :thumbup

[Shawn]

Force Storms, Force Lightning, Telekinesis, Pyrokinesis, Necromancy, Affect mind, Translocation, Shapeshifting and all other Star Wars wonders border on the impossible.As I explained before: Pretty much every Force power that is allowed here is based on the redirection and manipulation of energy. Mostly, this involves Kinetic energy, but can be other things like Force Lightning. Still, they can all be rationalized. Time manipulation is something else completely.

Never have I said "You can't do this". If you would like to write SW fanfics which include time manipulation, you may do so in the Storytelling forum. But as it is something that would give a person a distinct and insurmountable advantage over other players, I have to classify such things as god-moding and disallow it in the roleplaying forum.

Basically, we're not disagreeing here: You said
I just think its unfair to say somebody can't do something in a case like this. As long as everyone in the roleplay doesn't have a problem with it, I don't see why it can't be done.And I'm not preventing you from doing just this. In the Storytelling forum, everyone in the roleplay would have to agree to it before participating.

For clarification:

Let's assume you started an open thread in the Roleplaying forum. Someone else joined in and the two of you started a fight. You decide to stop time and basically do whatever you like to the person. Not only is that unfair to the other person, but the ramifications of stopping time everywhere (or even in a localized point) are mind-boggling.

Now, if you were start a thread in the Storytelling forum and, before anyone else joined in, you made them aware that the thread would involve elements of time manipulation and no one had a problem with it, then that's fine.

However, be aware that events in the Storytelling forum do no necessarily have to affect our regular RPing Universe. You can't start a thread in Storytelling where you go back in time and alter the past and expect that to have any bearing outside of your thread.

Basically, I'm saying that, if you really want to do it, you can. But please keep it to the Storytelling forum.

[Peter McCoy]

I completely understand that, thanks for clearing it up Shawn, I really appreciate it. And I know what you mean about things like it being unfair if you suddenly sprung it upon someone in an open thread. But please be aware that I'm sensible enough to know whethe ror not I'm roleplaying fairly, especially when it comes to time - I'm aware of its potential power in roleplays. After all - I am...

[Dakota Gue]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville


There are certain things that do not belong in the SW universe, and time travel is one of them.

:mneh

Eh?

I think out of all the points expressed in this thread, the time travel is the less of a stretch. People "time travel" here in the 20th century in the sense of Time zones etc. Leave Australia Monday..arrive Canada the Sunday afternoon before. How much more so when folks are travelling in Space with hyperSpeed, light years etc..this discrepencey would only be bigger. Not to mention the technology...If you can clone armies of troopers..someone woulda had the technology to time travel surely.

I mention this, for discussion sake, because actual characters travelling back and forth in time wreaking havoc etc would only generate circle upon circle of other characters travelling back to "fix" the wreaked havoc or prevent it, and so on and so forth.. In short..it would be redundant and a general pain in the patooey.

But I dont think Time Travel is absurd. Just extremely difficult to keep a fair game going with such an ability.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Dakota Gue
I think out of all the points expressed in this thread, the time travel is the less of a stretch. People "time travel" here in the 20th century in the sense of Time zones etc. Leave Australia Monday..arrive Canada the Sunday afternoon before.

This isn't time travel, because there is no manipulation of the laws of temporal physics. This exists only because of a need for a standarized method by which to log time of day and day of week across the globe and avoid international confusion. If you were step westward across the International Date Line, your physical being doesn't experience the passage of time any differently than someone on the other side of the globe. You mearly "travel" from say, Monday to Sunday, because of a man-made definition.





How much more so when folks are travelling in Space with hyperSpeed, light years etc..this discrepencey would only be bigger. Not to mention the technology...If you can clone armies of troopers..someone woulda had the technology to time travel surely.


There's an important distinction that needs to be made here, IMO. Faster-than-light travel in defined science-fiction terms tends to ignore Einstein's postulates about relative time distortion as a function of velocity. In the Star Wars universe, as in Star Trek and other sci-tech based realms, the standard Hyperspace or Warp travel employs a velocity-only philosophy. I think when examining the prospect of non-technology based time-travel, it would be prudent to play with the rules of the realm rather than the rules of actual science.


As for the initial discussion about stopping a person's movement via the Force, I would agree with much of what has been said. Causing temporary paralysis or constriction is possible, but actual manipulation of time for that person is a bit much.

[Shawn]

Originally posted by Dakota Gue
People "time travel" here in the 20th century in the sense of Time zones etc. Leave Australia Monday..arrive Canada the Sunday afternoon before. How much more so when folks are travelling in Space with hyperSpeed, light years etc..this discrepencey would only be bigger.As Figrin explained: There is no actual Time Travel occuring. While it may be several hours earlier or later in another part of the world, crossing a timezone does mean you're actually gaining or losing any extra hours. If this were true, someone could live forever simply by flying around the world constantly.
Not to mention the technology...If you can clone armies of troopers..someone woulda had the technology to time travel surely.Technically speaking, we could, with currently existing technology, create clone armies this very day. And unless the government is hiding something from us, I'm pretty sure we don't have time machines.

Cloning is genetic and very much within the bounds of rationale science. Metaphysics are not.

Not only that, but you're talking about time travel via technology. We're discussing time manipulation via the Force.

[DarthHERA]

Yes, Im not talking time manipulation at all :)

And as for the technology thing..I meant SW Technology, not real technology. (I shoulda been more specific)

But the time zone thing I dont get. I understand man-made time zones etc, but when you travel from Monday back to Sunday..arent you kinda outrunning the Sun. Its motion, not just the fact that there is an imaginary line to say Here is Monday, Here is Sunday. You move against or ahead of the Sun and in fact the passing of time, dont you?

For example - light from a star. The time it takes to travel here, the star itself is out, but HERE the light is still visible. Somehow that is time traveling to my mind.

I just think if given SW speeds and distances in the galaxy, it would be possible to physically move through time. But now my brain hurts.

[Charley]

But the time zone thing I dont get. I understand man-made time zones etc, but when you travel from Monday back to Sunday..arent you kinda outrunning the Sun.

The rotation of Earth doesn't determine time, its more of a landmark to indicate its passing. Travelling super fast in the other direction the sun rises & sets won't do anything in that respect. You're just cheating the reference. Time is still passing as it always does.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Hera, we physically move through time every day. It's called living. ;) So in that sense, yes, time travel is possible, you just have to do it a minute at a time just like everyone else.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by DarthHERA
For example - light from a star. The time it takes to travel here, the star itself is out, but HERE the light is still visible. Somehow that is time traveling to my mind.

I just think if given SW speeds and distances in the galaxy, it would be possible to physically move through time. But now my brain hurts.


This effect exists because of the large distances between star systems. It can take thousands of years for light from a distant star to traverse space and become visible to people on Earth, simply because the universe is a pretty big place. It's a distance and velocity matter rather than a 'time travel' one. When a supernova, for example, becomes visible on Earth, the actual stellar implosion likely took place hundreds of years ago. It just takes that amount of time for light, even travelling at 180,000+ miles/second, to reach Earth. Even photons of light are subjected to the effect of time.