IMPORTANT: Question for Shrine Veterans and all SWFans.Net community members

[TheHolo.Net]

~ It is a violation of our FAQ's of the Shrine to run a Vampire Char. without the express permission of the Shrine Council. As all other forums here at SWfans we respect the individuality of each group. Please respect ours. It is common courtesy and good manners to ask first before you run a Char. species that has already been well established. *Any "Rogue Vampire Char. or Sub-Class Vampire" will not be acknowledged or tolerated. If an RPer is found in violation of creating a Vampire Char. without permission or admittance here at the Shrine by the whole Council, appropriate action will be taken and reported immediately to the SWfans Admin's. ~ I have begun a debate among the staff of the SWFans.Net forums in regards to this rule seeing that its scope includes "All of SWFans.Net Forums" and is therefore under my staff's jurisdiction.

At this point and time I would like to hear your arguments why it is that your group should have exclusive rights to a race that is not an original creation of your own. It is in fact a race of beings that has existed in literature for a very long time. Longer than my lifespan or any of yours. What gives your group the right to lay claim over this race in its entirety?

[Alana Stormcloud]

Absolutely yes, we do lay claim to the char. "SITH Vamps" as they were started by Saurron at the Coven almost four RL years ago. It’s common knowledge. This is no different on the claim that has been laid, for example, by the Cizerack clan. This has absolutely nothing to do with the literature outside the star wars fans community, other than we base some of the char principals off of Ann Rice. There are no such beings or literature on Sith Vamps.



It is common courtesy and good manners to ask first before you run a Char. species that has already been well established.


Is that a problem for some? I don't see anybody around here that started them first before the Coven. If somebody started a new Cizz clan or char. For example without permission. Do you think it would cause a problem with the already existing members and forum? I think so. We are SITH Vampires in Star Wars universe, and yes we thought of them first via Saurron and the Coven.

[TheHolo.Net]

Before my official reply to your post let me point some things out regarding my intentions for having this discussion.

Had this rule of the Shrine’s not been a rule that affected all of the SWFans Community; I would never have questioned it in any way shape or form. It is the policy of the SWFans.Net Forums that RP group rules are separate from the SWFans.Net rules and therefore not governed by my staff or myself.

I hope that this topic of discussion does not become an emotional or dramatic one. It is my intent for this to be a debate. Debates are based on logic, rational thinking, facts, and example, in my opinion. This is not a personal grievance with any individual or individuals I am airing out in public, to ridicule, demean, or slander.

This is a discussion of a rule that if allowed to stay affects the forums under my staff and my jurisdiction, and as such needs to be made completely clear so that if it is ratified can be upheld with complete understanding by said staff.

Now, onto the debate of the facts you have presented:
Absolutely yes, we do lay claim to the char. "SITH Vamps" as they were started by Saurron at the Coven almost four RL years ago.Your rule explicitly states "a Vampire Char" Meaning any vampire character, not "SITH Vampire" as you have stated in your response, but really that is merely semantics and unimportant at this point.
This is no different on the claim that has been laid, for example, by the Cizerack clan. The Cizerack is a race of beings that are an original creation of one or more of our forum members and not a common race found in thousands of pieces of literature found throughout history. As such I find that to be intellectual property of the individual(s) responsible for creating them and under their direct control. You state yourself that you "base some of the char principals off of Ann Rice" which is an admission that this race is not your intellectual property.
It is common courtesy and good manners to ask first before you run a Char. species that has already been well established. If it is common courtesy please provide me with several examples of it taking place?

And the "we were first" argument has no bearing whatsoever seeing that there is no clause in the SWFans.Net RP FAQ that says a group can lay claim to an entire race merely because they RP'd that race first. Using such reasoning could be abused far too easily and become out of hand on a ridiculous scale. With such reasoning it would be possible that there could be absolutely no races to choose from on the forums without expressed permission of one group or another, except for one that the new RPer (person behind a char) created entirely on their own.

[Alana Stormcloud]

Your rule explicitly states "a Vampire Char" Meaning any vampire character, not "SITH Vampire" as you have stated in your response, but really that is merely semantics and unimportant at this point

In our FAQ we state that we base our powers off of Sith Magic, so that we can fit cleanly into the Star Wars universe. There have been other vamps created and we have said nothing about it but the simple fact is that we have an established story line going and the Vamps were brought into Star wars as Sith and are an original char. All we are asking for in a simple courtesy.

It is much like someone coming in and starting a new dark Jedi group, or a new Sith group. It would not be tolerated by the already existing groups. Yes I know there are individual char. made that do not belong to the factions and that is where I lay claim to it being a char. that is solely ours. Not unlike the Cizz. There were never vamps here until Saurron brought them in, and the creation Sith vamps is a unique creation. We base our powers off of Sith Magic. The only reason we state we use Anne Rice is so people understand that as vamps there will be no Misting or turning into animals or any other thing that cannot be explained through Sith magic.

As for giving examples of common courtesy.... Well that’s kinda hard to do isn’t it? Most know to go to the Jedi if they want to be one. If they still make one they are told that they cannot be all powerful, and in most circumstances are ignored if they do. It’s like the Jedi story line, where they are based, who the masters are. Most follow that out of common courtesy due to the fact that it is an on going story line. The same with the Sith, and the other factions.

[TheHolo.Net]

It is much like someone coming in and starting a new dark Jedi group, or a new Sith group. It would not be tolerated by the already existing groups.I have not seen that happen before. In fact I have seen other Sith groups created and other Jedi groups created without the permission of other previously established groups and they have been tolerated. I have two examples to point to for Jedi :

Nup and Morg once started another Jedi group and they were not told they had to be a part of the GJO.

Marcus has started a new Jedi group called "The Lost Jedi" and they are "tolerated" by the GJO.

I also have an example of a Sith group that was created at the SWFans.Net Forums that I myself was a major part in creating which was "tolerated" by the other Sith groups. The RSO.

If it is such a "common courtesy" then you should easily be able to provide me with examples of it taking place. Just as I have easily presented three examples that refute your current argument..
If they still make one they are told that they cannot be all powerful, and in most circumstances are ignored if they do. It’s like the Jedi story line, where they are based, who the masters are. Most follow that out of common courtesy due to the fact that it is an on going story line. The same with the Sith, and the other factions.You are mistaing policy. Yes they cannot create an all powerful character. "All powerful" is one definition of "god mode", which of course is unacceptable. The actual policy is that characters are best accepted when they have a documented history of training and time spent developing their character to become of a powerful level, such as Jedi Knight, Sith Lord or whatever. There is no policy that states they have to train within an established group to do so.

[TheHolo.Net]

Here is a proposal for how your rule could be changed which I personally would support::


"~ It is a violation of our FAQ's of the Shrine to run a Vampire Char. that is in any way related to the Shrine or any of its members without the express permission of the Shrine Council. As all other forums here at SWfans we respect the individuality of each group. Please respect ours. If an RPer is found in violation of creating a Vampire Char. related to the Shrine or any Shrine member without permission or admittance here at the Shrine by the whole Council, appropriate action will be taken and reported immediately to the SWfans Admin's. ~"

[Alana Stormcloud]

I am talking about here at fans. The lost Jedi is tolerated because in a sense it is part of the GJO. Also what I mean by they have common courtesy is they follow there base story line. Where they are from, timeline and all of the small stuff. Its not just common courtesy its common knowledge. Already I have seen most agree that it is the right thing to do when making a new char such as a vamp or a cizz, that you go to that faction and ask.

Also like I said yes I do know there are char's made that do not go and join a group but they are under most circumstances either ignored or talked to because they run there Jedi to powerful or have a diff story line. All we are asking for is common courtesy is this so much to ask for that it has become a debate??

Like I said we are a unique char. A Sith Vamp. There are none in literature that I know of. We base our powers almost solely on Sith magic out of common courtesy to other rpers that have a prob with right out Vamps. So that we can easily fit into the storylines of the board......

[TheHolo.Net]

The Lost Jedi is not a part of the GJO in any sense except that some of its members are also members of the GJO. If you are certain it is part of the GJO please PM thier founder (Marcus) and have him post saying so in this thread.

My point is that laying claim to an entire race as widely known as Vampires is no different than someone coming along and laying claim to another widely known race such as Humans. It restricts the freedom of the community members on too wide a scale to be resonable.

Vampire lore has been around in one fashion or another for centuries. You have no exclusive claim to the race just as it would be unpermissable for someone to claim no other RPer or potential RPer could create a human character without getting the permission of the GJO Council.

You are asking to have complete control of an entire (albeit fictional) race, one that is known about by almost every living person on this planet.. Try a little experiment, ask someone who knows nothing about these forums if they have ever heard of a Cizerack, and then ask them if they have ever heard of a Vampire.

A vampire is in not an original or unique idea.

[Alana Stormcloud]

No but a Sith Vampire is original and unique. How then would they be accepted to this community and all the fights we had to go through to establish who we are as vamps if not through Sith magic. There have been a few individuals who have made vamps on the fans board. They have been directed to us or they themselves have come to us out of common courtesy to our established storyline.

If they make a vampire char or a group of vamps how would they go about explaining there powers? Through the force right? If they do not how widely are the char accepted?? Not at all from what I have seen because most try to follow the star wars universe guidelines and use the sith magic or the force in some way.... Hence the original char Sith vampires.

As for the lost Jedi everyone knows that the ones who are in it are GJO char's. That is the connection they are ran by GJO members and are in fact established char at the GJO. So yes there is a connection to the two factions.

[Pandora Damaris]

As Alana stated, Saurron/Coven (Which we are adjoined to as IC allies) was started some 4 yr's ago was his sole concept coming in as a Newbie back in the day's of the TSO on the E-Z board's day's...SW Vamp or Vampyre/ Sith Vampyre are the creation and concept that was brought here regardless of the clause or how one perceives it, in turn, this is what we lay claim to as it was started by our "group's" Coven/Shrine...All you "Old Timers" know this...As "Sith Vampyre's/ ect. ect" are concerned, there is no mention of them in Expanded Unaverse as they are an "adaptation" here at Fan's and have been extensively RP'd out by Saurron and myself...

Even though it is an "Unwritten Rule" before we posted our FAQ due to the fact peep were creating "Rouge's" and by-passing our Story Line Linage" that has also been well established lead's to the point why we do ask for consent and permission by this Forum before creating one. Hence the quote: ~"It is common courtesy and good manners to ask first before you run a Char. species that has already been well established."~

There is a current discussion in our locked forum concerning this matter and has been a problem that we've addressed on more then one occasion...Due to the fact of keeping those names of RPer's anonymous, we will not post CHR. Name’s as it would create flaming and bad feeling and in my opinion be disrespectful...I assure you there are a number of theses instances.

There is good reason as to why we wish to enforce this with “Sith Vamp’s/ Vampyre’s ect. to our exclusive right due to the mystique and nature (Story Line) we’ve worked hard to preserve. Vamps are a mysterious/ allusive CHR. and to be quite frank…A limited few.

REMEMBER: do not gloss over the fact…We have worked hard on the Linage and Beginnings of theses CHR’s.

*As for common courtesy, it is fair to say that most Rper’s would ask or inquire from a particular group before creating any CHR. or species that has already been well established.

*Here’s an example…If someone is currently using a “picture” of a CHR. for there own purpose and someone comes along and use’s it without asking, would that be courteous to the one that’s already laid claim to it?...It doesn’t matter if it’s a RL pic of a real actor or based off a comic book CHR. ect. ect…It’s simply being used and is taken. So how much more do you think we here at the Coven/Shrine would protect a “Story Line Linage of Vampyre’s and CHR species” when the rule of “Already taken Picture’s” are in effect here at SWfan’s?...

[Pandora Damaris]

In our FAQ we state that we base our powers off of Sith Magic, so that we can fit cleanly into the Star Wars universe. There have been other vamps created and we have said nothing about it but the simple fact is that we have an established story line going and the Vamps were brought into Star wars as Sith and are an original char. All we are asking for in a simple courtesy.

This is the point...Well said :)

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
No but a Sith Vampire is original and unique. How then would they be accepted to this community and all the fights we had to go through to establish who we are as vamps if not through Sith magic. There have been a few individuals who have made vamps on the fans board. They have been directed to us or they themselves have come to us out of common courtesy to our established storyline.

If they make a vampire char or a group of vamps how would they go about explaining there powers? Through the force right? If they do not how widely are the char accepted?? Not at all from what I have seen because most try to follow the star wars universe guidelines and use the sith magic or the force in some way.... Hence the original char Sith vampires.

As for the lost Jedi everyone knows that the ones who are in it are GJO char's. That is the connection they are ran by GJO members and are in fact established char at the GJO. So yes there is a connection to the two factions. No, I don't agree that a Sith Vampire is an original or unique idea.

Vampires are generally thought of by any person that even knows the slightest thing about them as being evil, so its nothing but pure logic for the majority of Vampires to be associated with the evil part of our Universe.

Yu keep talking about common courtesy yet you have yet to provide me a single example that fits with your argument as it related to a widely known race besides the Vampires or Cizerack. The Cizerack do not have a rule such as this in their FAQ.

It is not in my scope of ability to judge the possibilities any other person may create in defining their vampire character’s abilities and or origins. Imagination is not something so finite as to be able to restrict to two possibilities as you have offered.

I know of Lost Jedi characters (at least two) that are not GJO members. And I will only believe they are connected to the GJO when Marcus the Lost Jedi founder states it himself.

[Alana Stormcloud]

You are stating that there are then other Sith vampires out there? That was created before ours? There are no Sith vamps that I know of in any literature. Everyone knows how long and hard we have fought to establish our vamps in the star wars universe, We have established a story line. If we did not use Sith magic how widely would we be accepted? If your running a vamp and use the force in anyway then u are infringing on our original idea of star wars vamps or force using vamps.....That is all we are trying to state.

Force using vamps are very unique and original. If they come in claiming to be solely just vamps with no force use they can go for it. Let’s see how far they get without trying to explain there powers or where they come from. Or how they obtained there powers. So if they explain it through the force is it not our right to say "hey this force using vampire storyline is our sole creation." Because like I said there is no literature out there that has never had force using vamps......

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Pandora Damaris
As Alana stated, Saurron/Coven (Which we are adjoined to as IC allies) was started some 4 yr's ago was his sole concept coming in as a Newbie back in the day's of the TSO on the E-Z board's day's...SW Vamp or Vampyre/ Sith Vampyre are the creation and concept that was brought here regardless of the clause or how one perceives it, in turn, this is what we lay claim to as it was started by our "group's" Coven/Shrine...All you "Old Timers" know this...As "Sith Vampyre's/ ect. ect" are concerned, there is no mention of them in Expanded Unaverse as they are an "adaptation" here at Fan's and have been extensively RP'd out by Saurron and myself...That is what you post boils down to "established characters" I do respect established characters and established story lines. See my proposal for how to modify your rule in one of my previous replies.

All of your points have already been refuted by example, fact, and logic. Please read my previous posts carefully and then come to me with a different point than the "already been established" line, which I have already refuted as well and is all that is being held on to firmly at this point.

"Already established" as a premise to exclusive rights could be abused to the point of absurdity, with any number of other widely used races here at the forums.

I will give an example: I myself was the first to create and "establish" a Rodian Bounty Hunter character here in the SWFans Universe with the help of a friend. By your reasoning I could ask the SWFans.Net staff to support my (fictional) stance that no other RPer at these forums can create a Rodain Bounty Hunter without my permission. I know I'm not the intellectual owner of the race (Rodian) or the faction (Bounty Hunter), which you have already admitted to in your case with Vampires (Ann Rice's adaptation) or Sith (Lucas' intellectual property).

Such a precedent as this could spiral so out of control it would be insane.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
You are stating that there are then other Sith vampires out there? That was created before ours? There are no Sith vamps that I know of in any literature. Everyone knows how long and hard we have fought to establish our vamps in the star wars universe, We have established a story line. If we did not use Sith magic how widely would we be accepted? If your running a vamp and use the force in anyway then u are infringing on our original idea of star wars vamps or force using vamps.....That is all we are trying to state.

Force using vamps are very unique and original. If they come in claiming to be solely just vamps with no force use they can go for it. Let’s see how far they get without trying to explain there powers or where they come from. Or how they obtained there powers. So if they explain it through the force is it not our right to say "hey this force using vampire storyline is our sole creation." Because like I said there is no literature out there that has never had force using vamps...... I'm sorry, but that idea is not original, it is simple logic.

[Pandora Damaris]

As I've stated before and I'll make it clear again...


There is a current discussion in our locked forum concerning this matter and has been a problem that we've addressed on more then one occasion...Due to the fact of keeping those names of RPer's anonymous, we will not post CHR. Name’s as it would create flaming and bad feeling and in my opinion be disrespectful...I assure you there are a number of theses instances.


No, I don't agree that a Sith Vampire is an original or unique idea.

You are entitled to your opinion...Nevertheless, the concept of "Sith Vampyre's," original idea or not, were created by Saurron and the "Linage Line" it follows, I assure you is original.

By your "proposal of changing our FAQ" would disrupt and dramatically change this...Leaving an "open door" of sort's for other's to ignore and disregard when so many have worked hard on it countless hour's and yr's now.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Pandora Damaris
As I've stated before and I'll make it clear again...





You are entitled to your opinion...Nevertheless, the concept of "Sith Vampyre's," original idea or not, were created by Saurron and the "Linage Line" it follows, I assure you is original.

By your "proposal of changing our FAQ" would disrupt and dramatically change this...Leaving an "open door" of sort's for other's to ignore and disregard when so many have worked hard on it countless hour's and yr's now. You cannot dicatete the policy of forums you do not administer without my consent, which is what your rule does at this point. It either gets modified or it gets removed entirely unless you come up with a convincing argument based on example, fact, and logic.

[Alana Stormcloud]

I’m sorry but I do not understand how u can say that a force using vamp is not original. Do you have proof that there are other force using vamps that were made before we made them?

Are there anywhere in the star wars universe besides the ones we originally created, that are force using? Not that I know of. No where in star wars are there force using vamps. We are the original creators of FORCE using vamps. Like I said if they want to come in and be just a vamp and not say they use the force in anyway that’s fine. Let’s see how they explain there powers and where they got them. We use the force to fit into the storyline of star wars. Hence why force using vamps are our original idea. Since there are none in literature anywhere. All we want is for the ones who create vamps to not use our original idea of force using vamps. (Force using vamps are original because before we made them there were no others.)

As for non force using vamps like I said they can go for it. They will have to explain there powers just like we did. All we want them to do is not to say it’s via the force because it’s our story line......

[Charley]

I can think of others who have brought aspects of vampirism to this RP and did not consult with or associate with your group. There was a RPer here a while back named Lord Dagger who did just that.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
I’m sorry but I do not understand how u can say that a force using vamp is not original. Do you have proof that there are other force using vamps that were made before we made them?

Are there anywhere in the star wars universe besides the ones we originally created, that are force using? Not that I know of. No where in star wars are there force using vamps. We are the original creators of FORCE using vamps. Like I said if they want to come in and be just a vamp and not say they use the force in anyway that’s fine. Let’s see how they explain there powers and where they got them. We use the force to fit into the storyline of star wars. Hence why force using vamps are our original idea. Since there are none in literature anywhere. All we want is for the ones who create vamps to not use our original idea of force using vamps. (Force using vamps are original because before we made them there were no others.)

As for non force using vamps like I said they can go for it. They will have to explain there powers just like we did. All we want them to do is not to say it’s via the force because it’s our story line...... Wizards of the Coast Publications has made previous mention of Sith Vampires in their RP source material which is dated older than 4 years.

and besides, as I said before…

Vampires = evil

and

Sith = evil

…therefore it is simple logic to conclude that the majority of Vampires would be Sith regardless of which Sith abilities they use.

Vampires = Sith

Vampires as a race are not your intellectual property. There are literally thousands of pieces of source material on the evilness of Vampires, some of which date back centuries.

[Mitara Sinar]

I would like to point out that by defenition a Vampire can be classified as any creature that drinks the blood of another.

You clame that you brought the SW vampires to SW galaxy... you are wrong...

The Anzati are the origanal SW Vampires introdused in the Star Wars Tales Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina
Sub Story: Soup's On: The Pipe Smoker's Tale.

You may have a diffrent outlook on Star Wars Vampires.... You may have Created the First Sith Vampire... But that should not make us nead your permision to use on. That would be like saying that there can be no sith Humans without prior permistion from Geroge Lucas...

[Alana Stormcloud]

(Agent Charley)Mr. Net)
That doesn’t change the fact that four years ago Saurron was the original creator of force using vamps. Hence why it is an original idea that belongs to the Coven and the Shrine. Force using vamps were created solely by Saurron.

If they want to use non force vamps they can go for it as long as they do not use our original idea of using the force for there powers. Yes Mr. Net vamps are inherently evil but we are the original makers of force using vamps. We brought them into the star wars universe as force using. No one has done that before Saurron. Also the books do not state they are force using vamps like ours are..... So yes I feel we have a rt like the Cizz to claim them. Since A force using vamp is original......

[Pandora Damaris]

Sith Vampires are unique. It is a unique character idea that had not been thought of until Saurron created it. There is not one instance in which any extended universe book has mentioned a Sith Vampire. The only creature that comes close to a vampire that is in the extended universe is a creature that was mentioned in Tales From The Cantina. It's only similarity is that it sucks the life of it's prey, but it does it through the nose and sucks out their brains. Other than that, there is no mention of Sith Vampires.

Just because the idea of a Vampire is known to many, the idea of a SITH vampire is not. That idea was created and established by us.

[Mitara Sinar]

a Vampire is just another Classification.... It is not even a Species.... All that A Vampire is, is something that drinks blood.... there is no Species involved... Also, The force binds all Living Things, not undead. So that must meen that they were a force user before they were turned into a Vampire, Since Undead are not living..... So why does that meen you get to deside who all other vampires can turn into vampires, since Sith Vampires must be aproved by you...

[Alana Stormcloud]

Mitara read the title description..... This is for Shrine veterans.... To answer your question it is because we created the force using vampire species. There were no other force using vampire species before Saurron created them. That is why like the Cizz we would like the courtesy of people asking before they mess up our story line. Is that so much to ask??

[Pandora Damaris]

That's fine. If you want to have a character that lives off of blood, that's fine. We're not objecting to that. There's many creatures that live off of blood. Fleas live off of blood, as do masquitos, but the way we have rped Vampires here, it is a sperate species. They're force using vampires.

[Charley]

A clarification:

Cizerack characters by no means have to get permission to play their characters from me or anyone else. Its strongly advised that they read the FAQ before doing so, but that aside, its pretty much open. There is no comparison.

[Adjerban the Interloper]

Wizards of the Coast Publications has made previous mention of Sith Vampires in their RP source material which is dated older than 4 years.


Wizards of the Coast Publications has made previous mention of Sith Vampires in their RP source material which is dated older than 4 years.


Wizards of the Coast Publications has made previous mention of Sith Vampires in their RP source material which is dated older than 4 years.

[Mitara Sinar]

Why would a new person, with a new Character, mess up your timeline, if they have nothing to do with your Group of Characters?

corection....This is for Shrine veterans to answer question... I'm just adding more questions..

[Alana Stormcloud]

IMPORTANT: Question for Shrine Veterans

Correction it is a question for Shrine Veterans. it is between Fans and the Shrine. Not for u to add to it Mitara. Please refrain.....


Agent Charley Be that as it may..... Everyone knows they belong to you. Have u not had them out of common courtesy come to you and ask? If they messed up your established way u run them or the way they look would you not be upset?? That is all we are asking for is common courtesy.

[TheHolo.Net]

This topic, being mine, is now being moved to the OOC forum and re-titled. It is an issue that the entire community has a right to give their input in. As for some quick content to my post, which has already been said:
Originally posted by Agent Charley
A clarification:

Cizerack characters by no means have to get permission to play their characters from me or anyone else. Its strongly advised that they read the FAQ before doing so, but that aside, its pretty much open. There is no comparison.
Wizards of the Coast Publications has made previous mention of Sith Vampires in their RP source material which is dated older than 4 years.
Originally posted by Mitara Sinar
You may have a diffrent outlook on Star Wars Vampires.... You may have Created the First Sith Vampire... But that should not make us nead your permision to use on. That would be like saying that there can be no sith Humans without prior permistion from Geroge Lucas...

[Morgan Evanar]

Your claims to vampires are absolutely invalid, since it is part of SW source. Beyond the forums of the Shrine, you have zero valid jurisdiction.

[Pandora Damaris]

I've been trying to look up this RP book you keep talking about, but I haven't found it. Can you give a specific title and issue to this book you claim has Sith Vampires?

[OW outcast]

Its the Sith source book

[Alana Stormcloud]

Well as I see it Mr. Net this was a valid thread for the Shrine and should not have been moved. Due to the fact it will only become a witch hunt as usual. Have your Witch hunt I will no longer take part in it. I will also edit the FAQ since you do not want the fans name involved. We do have a valid point on Force using vamps being Saurron’s original idea and everyone knows it. Have fun......

[OW outcast]

http://www.wizards.com/starwars/product.asp?WTC11849

sorry dark side source book my bad theres alink to what the book looks like and yes sith vampires are briefly mentioned in it. For your information it was I who told Mr. Net of this information because i do not want to see fans or the shrine being accused of claiming and Idea that is not there own. I do not want to see this community fall apart in any manner.being both a member of the shrine and various other groups.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
Well as I see it Mr. Net this was a valid thread for the Shrine and should not have been moved. Due to the fact it will only become a witch hunt as usual. Have your Witch hunt I will no longer take part in it. I will also edit the FAQ since you do not want the fans name involved. We do have a valid point on Force using vamps being Saurron’s original idea and everyone knows it. Have fun...... This thread is regarding an issue that affects the entire community. You would not allow others in the community to add their opinions freely (censorship) which is more or less what this rule does as well (censorship) and so I made it available to the entire community for comment. considering I am the original author of this thread, I know for who it was intended. I initially started this topic to protect the freedoms of my community members in using their imaginations.

This is not a witch hunt, this is a debate. You have yet to provide any example that fits the scope of your claim to the entire race (or sub-species whatever) of vampires. Saying we did it first has been refuted already via example that fits the same overwhelming scope.

Trying to equate this situation to the "Picture usage issue" does not compare, in scope, because that issue only applies to the scope of a single characterization not an entire classification as large as an entire species.

If "everyone knows it", then why are there other opinions in this thread besides my own that do not agree with your opinion on this rule?

My rewording of your FAQ rule was exactly the change needed to protect the intellectual property of the Shrine and its Council members (including SAURRON), but you appear want to censor or control people and not allow them to create vampire characters without your permission. Which is no different than my (fictional) example of Rodian Bounty Hunters posted by me previously.

[Xazor Elessar]

As co-founder and second in command to Marcus at The Lost Jedi, I would like to point out that we are not, in any way, shape or form, connected to the Greater Jedi Order. In fact, IC, no one really knows that Marcus and myself are even members of this new group.

Marcus is a 'real' Lost Jedi, following the storyline of The Lost Twenty -- those twenty Jedi that left the Order like Dooku did. Basically, he removed himself from databanks and everything as well as from the Order itself because he does not necessarily agree with the way the Council operates and other such things. Myself, IC speaking, has done something similar. I've removed great ties to the Council and its precepts, but I am very much a member of the GJO. I am also a member of TLJ and I operate 'secretive' type missions and activities through it. :)

I am not taking sides or anything -- in fact, I am very supportive of what Alana is saying since I have a character over at The Shrine. I see no problem with them desiring others to check with them before creating a character. As for the Ciz pride, I've created a Ciz without asking their permission. Granted I don't play him anymore, but I did for a while.

I just basically replied on behalf of Marcus, myself, and the rest of TLJ. I don't want to get in the middle of this because I'm on both sides, I guess. So -- please, no one think I'm taking sides because I'm not, I'm just stating facts. :) I don't want to see this turn into some huge fight or anything. That would be rather pointless.

[Pandora Damaris]

That book was released in August of 2001. Saurron created the vamps in 1999 I believe. It is very well possible that the person who wrote the book had visted SWFans. This is not an unknown board to those higher ups in the SW universe.

[OW outcast]

Hmmm I don't think considering its licensed by lucas arts there for you can not prove any relative time the term was coined.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Pandora Damaris
That book was released in August of 2001. Saurron created the vamps in 1999 I believe. It is very well possible that the person who wrote the book had visted SWFans. This is not an unknown board to those higher ups in the SW universe. That was the release date for that particular revision of the book, and unless someone has a copy of the actual text with actual copyright dates cannot be verified as the publish date of the "original.

[Alana Stormcloud]

Though the books may mention vamps they do not mention Force using vamps. That is solely the creation of Saurron. I am only asking for courtesy here we do not widely tell people they cannot have vamps only that they get permission on force using vamps because it is our story line. I am not trying to censor anyone either but I will not be party to a flame fest on the shrine yet again which this will become.

There were no such things as force using vampire species before Saurron created them.



That was the release date for that particular revision of the book, and unless someone has a copy of the actual text with actual copyright dates cannot be verified as the publish date of the "original.

So then wouldn’t you say it cannot be used as a valid argument that it was made before Saurron's idea?

[OW outcast]

I have read the book in question cover to cover and I will state that they do briefly mention force using Vampires. therefore alana you are mistaken

[imported_Jack]

My two cents:

People should be able to create a char however, or whatever they are. You dont see Sorsha saying "You cant create a witch or mage char because we started them..."

As long as the chars created stick within baord rules there should be no restrictions on what race, or what class a character is...the man rule is 'realisim'.

End of story in my opinion.

[Pandora Damaris]

Had this discussion taken place before that book was released, you would have conceeded with our claim for Force using vamps as an original idea. As such, it is still our original idea. As we stated before, it was an unwritten rule. Just because the dicsussion has suddently come about now does't change that.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
Though the books may mention vamps they do not mention Force using vamps. That is solely the creation of Saurron. I am only asking for courtesy here we do not widely tell people they cannot have vamps only that they get permission on force using vamps because it is our story line. I am not trying to censor anyone either but I will not be party to a flame fest on the shrine yet again which this will become.

There were no such things as force using vampire species before Saurron created them. Uhhhh its the Dark Side Users source book, that means "Force Using" if you ask me, though I cannot be completely certain since I do not own the actual text.
*Any "Rogue Vampire Char. or Sub-Class Vampire" will not be acknowledged or tolerated. If an RPer is found in violation of creating a Vampire Char. without permission or admittance here at the Shrine by the whole Council, appropriate action will be taken and reported immediately to the SWfans Admin's. ~That sure looks to me like telling people that they cannot create a Vampire character, Faction is no issue to me. Re-wording it to Sith Vampire is not acceptable either since that is the most logical aspect of the force one of such species would follow.

Let me reitterate:
Had this rule of the Shrine’s not been a rule that affected all of the SWFans Community; I would never have questioned it in any way shape or form. It is the policy of the SWFans.Net Forums that RP group rules are separate from the SWFans.Net rules and therefore not governed by my staff or myself.

I hope that this topic of discussion does not become an emotional or dramatic one. It is my intent for this to be a debate. Debates are based on logic, rational thinking, facts, and example, in my opinion. This is not a personal grievance with any individual or individuals I am airing out in public, to ridicule, demean, or slander. This issue is only a debate of your rule and its validity across the whole of SWFans.Net. there have been no flames and if there are action will be taken by the SWFans.Net staff, but I will not tell people who simply add their honest opinions that they are not allowed to post in the thread.

[Xazor Elessar]

I hope people saw my post, maybe everyone was writing as I posted. :huh It's okay, it's there. :)

Another thing -- there were only two (or one, I dunno) Garou when I came here -- but I became one and soon everyone (okay, not everyone, but a lot of people) began using the term "Garou". Now, I know that Vega brought this up once before -- but once they realized how many Garou there were, they became Lupine. I have no idea who began these names on this board, but I know they were there far before we thought of them.

As for the Force Vamp thing -- I'm leaning on Alana's side with that one. It is very very possible that people who've written books have visited this sight. It is a very widely known board. :)

Again, not trying to make waves -- I'm pretty neutral, but I do agree with some things on all sides. ;)

[imported_Jack]

So because you started them, that gives you the right to pick and choose who gets to be one regardless? :\

I find that unfair....

I ask you to read my previous staitment about magic users...

[OW outcast]

Not exactly because there is one other point that needs to be made. The term Sith is a copyright of Lucus arts there for can not be mentioned or used with out the express permision of there company. We have already istablished Vampire is a free word to use. so unless you can prove express permision from Lucus arts I'm sorry but you can't use the term sith.

[Alana Stormcloud]

quote:
That was the release date for that particular revision of the book, and unless someone has a copy of the actual text with actual copyright dates cannot be verified as the publish date of the "original.



So then wouldn’t you say it cannot be used as a valid argument that it was made before Saurron's idea?

[Morgan Evanar]

Then how come Jedi fight Anazazi, which use lightsabers, which are decidedly impratical to weild without the Force.

The concept isn't new. It never was. Besides, did you have Saurron's permission to splinter and form your own group then? Did he continue to deem who could be a Sith Vampire and who could not?

I doubt it. Your claims are bunk by your own history and actions.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Xazor Elessar
I hope people saw my post, maybe everyone was writing as I posted. :huh It's okay, it's there. :)

Another thing -- there were only two (or one, I dunno) Garou when I came here -- but I became one and soon everyone (okay, not everyone, but a lot of people) began using the term "Garou". Now, I know that Vega brought this up once before -- but once they realized how many Garou there were, they became Lupine. I have no idea who began these names on this board, but I know they were there far before we thought of them.

As for the Force Vamp thing -- I'm leaning on Alana's side with that one. It is very very possible that people who've written books have visited this sight. It is a very widely known board. :)

Again, not trying to make waves -- I'm pretty neutral, but I do agree with some things on all sides. ;) Verse and Vega have taken the right approach with Garau(sp) (White Wolf RP character class) and Lupine (warewolves with a different name) since neither was their original intellectual property, Neither Verse or Vega have made it a rule that characters of those race (class) need their permission to be made. And they also have the same distinction you are trying to focus on. Neither of those classes had previously been associated with using the Force until they did it.

[imported_Jack]

I wish to ask a question:

Was this rule signed and agreed by the baord of SWfans and the staff?

[Xazor Elessar]

But OW, she's not using this for her own advantage (ie: writing a book and calling the term "Sith" her own creation). This is about rights to a race on this RP board and I see no problem with us Vamps to defend ourselves.

It's just like a few people who've created Jedi Master characters outside of the GJO -- with no history or anything. They just come out one day, in their first post and say, "I'm a Jedi Master -- all powerful and controlling." I have to laugh at that because they have not had any experience, nor have they gone through the proper channels to become a Master. Even if they were to train on their own, outside of the GJO, they've had nothing to back up their claim.

[Morgan Evanar]

No.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Jack
I wish to ask a question:

Was this rule signed and agreed by the baord of SWfans and the staff? Nope. That is what this debate is in the process of providing the opportunity of doing.

[Morgan Evanar]

Even if they were to train on their own, outside of the GJO, they've had nothing to back up their claim. As long its on Fans, it can be valid. I'm sure if someone had a lone lightside Jedi that she/he had been RPing for three years I doubt we could contest it.

[Lord Soth]

My main concern is the story line that has been Rp'd out over the year's...The argument of Vampyre's in general is a mute point as Pandora has stated any thing that take's life from another can be misconstrued as such...

It is the (Sith Vampyre and his abilities) I believe we wish to keep in tact here...Yes, the Coven idea of such Force using creature's has been established and IS unique as far as I'm concerned.

The debate over Vampyre's that are "Turned" as sub-human and simbiant alike, granted the "Dark Gift" and receiving power's from a well established blood line is the focus.

In the story line that's been created if you take the time to read...The Shrine and Coven lay clam to the "Mother and Father to all Vampires", thus how would it be feasible and fair for someone to disregard our Story Line Linage as such when Vampyre's are aware of thier own kind? Or claim that they came from another source when it’s already been RP'd out that IC their excusive?

I would like to see the where Star Wars Sith Vampyre’s have been used before hand as some are suggesting here?...I’m sure you won’t find any…That alone makes them unique in my estimation. The word Vampyre to me is like using any other word such as Blood Sucker, Life Stealer and so on, it’s irrelevant to this discussion …What sets them apart is that we here at the Shrine are Sith wielding Vampyre’s who have different gift’s and power’s given to us by a well established blood line that has been RP’d out for quite some time now. This idea was introduced by a close friend of mine who I’ve worked with in creating over the last three years.

It is logic that Sith Vampyre’s are unique to SWfan’s and we wish to reserve that right by people having the common courtesy of asking what has already been established and the story line behind them…That’s why we are here to answer theses questions as a Council. (We specialize in Vampyre’s and how they relate to the Dark-Side of the Force and the abilities they can posses!)

I would never guess or assume of creating a character of a “specialized classification”, (Especially if they’ve been RP’d out in detail without asking the proper forum that specializes in them) or researching the info on a established class of CHR’s before I made one…Common sense.

[Xazor Elessar]

I'm aware of that, Morg -- I was trying to make the point that these people (who shall remain nameless) came onto Fans, claiming to be Jedi Masters -- and yet, it was their first post. You get what I'm saying?

It's like those people who have no background stories that pop up one day and say "I'm a Sith Vamp". It's frustrating, yes?

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Morgan Evanar
As long its on Fans, it can be valid. I'm sure if someone had a lone lightside Jedi that she/he had been RPing for three years I doubt we would contest it. Fixed to fit my opinion/official stance.

[Shanaria Fabool]

So using you logic.... That would meen... since I am the first Force Using Omwatii.... Does that meen that I get to say who can and can't be a force Using Omwatii?.... or does it meen that since Ryla was the first force using blue skined person, that I nead her permistion?

You have stated that you are a species. AND that people can use other vampires that are not force using. So then Why does it MATTER if the other have one that can use the force...

Truthfuly I can't even see HOW the vampires can use the force. Since the force bind all living things, and Vampires (based on Ann Rice) Are not living. Hence forth, Vampires should not be ABLE to use the force.... And unless you have a realy good explation, Force using Vampires should (in theory) be a form of God Moding.

[Charley]

Oh God the can of worms opens! >_< Just don't ask, plz.

[Severen Morkonis]

Myself, Vega and a few others such as Shabby and a few plans from Sorsha have (as insignifficant as it is capired to Lupine or Vamps) created a mage class. If somone wished to be one (rogue or not) they could i have no arguments with it. Fair play and free will.

2ndly if this was not agreed by the SWfans staff or anyone at the boards officaly what right does anyone have to restrict it?. Noone has copyright on the word or race vampire...The shrines argument is so invalid its unthinkible...

[Marcus Telcontar]

Xaz : The difference between a Jedi Master and a Vampire is that a Master is a skill and a Vampire, for want of a better term, a race. In roleplaying, you cant stop anyone playing a race. You can stop them from playing a skill if they have not legitimatly gained it.

I cant stop another Jedi Master from going Lost - Lost is canon. a Lost Jedi is a clearly defined canon Jedi type. That would not be fair if I said I could be the only Lost character type. I CAN stop them from playing a Jedi Master as here as you have to pass a skill standard.

That's all I have to say.

[Pandora Damaris]

The problem with having someone suddenly create a vampire is that it messes up the story line which has been ongoing for four years. It's happened before and we've had to tell people before. They come in and start making up their own ideas as to how the vampire became established, but we have already set in the story line how they became established.

It's as if someone comes in and decides that the way the Sith and Jedi were established no longer counts, and they basically "rewrite" the story that George Lucas originally established and that the Jedi and Sith here have played off of.

[Alana Stormcloud]

"Then how come Jedi fight Anazazi, which use lightsabers, which are decidedly impratical to weild without the Force.

The concept isn't new. It never was. Besides, did you have Saurron's permission to splinter and form your own group then? Did he continue to deem who could be a Sith Vampire and who could not?

I doubt it. Your claims are bunk by your own history and actions."


Not a flame fest huh.... :/

First and foremost Morg I was turned by Saurron so yes I do have valid claim on being a force using vampire :)

Appropriate action will be taken and reported immediately to the SWfans Admin's.

That is the last part of the FAQ in red. It does not say what fans admins will do but that we will take it up with them. That was all it was. I was not saying that they would do anything.


As Xaz said we are only trying to say please give us the common courtesy of coming to us if u plan to use a force using vamp. It being a sole creation of Saurron. If you want a vamp that is not a force using one like at the Shrine or the coven go for it. Try and explain where your powers come from like we have. We use the force to accommodate star wars we have for the past four years. It was done as a courtesy to other rpers that did not like just vamp powers.......

[Sorsha Kasajian]

Sith Witch is a title I came up with. Nothing more. I hardly hold any copyright on it, any more than I have copyright over the word Chaos.

[Morgan Evanar]

You sidestepped the question. You said your right derives from Saurron, for the creation of new Vampires.

Did he grant you this right when you splintered to form the Shrine?

If not, you have been in violation of his intellectual property.

Edit: your doublespeak has me so sideways I got the original group confused with the splinter.

[Sorsha Kasajian]

~ It is a violation of our FAQ's of the Shrine to run a Vampire Char. without the express permission of the Shrine Council. As all other forums here at SWfans we respect the individuality of each group. Please respect ours. It is common courtesy and good manners to ask first before you run a Char. species that has already been well established. *Any "Rogue Vampire Char. or Sub-Class Vampire" will not be acknowledged or tolerated. If an RPer is found in violation of creating a Vampire Char. without permission or admittance here at the Shrine by the whole Council, appropriate action will be taken and reported immediately to the SWfans Admin's. ~


quoting the whole post, and not a portion of it would be more useful to the argument.

[TheHolo.Net]

Baobhan-sith

A Scotish vampire that normally disguised itself as a beautiful maiden and lured its victims to there deaths. In fairy lore the Baobhan-sith usually appeared dressed in green.



Discuss Baobhan-sith on our forumSource: http://www.vampireaz.com/vampsb.html

Sith Vampire mention, Page copyrighted 1997 - current
As the Vampiric Sith lord turns to face her, he begins to burn in the light radiating from the hole where the black glass once was. As he stands there stunned, Faith taps her foot on the ground twice, and moves to side kick the dark lord. With that, a stake launched by a device attached to her calf pierces his heart and as he turns to dust, he crackles with black-lightning. Sorce: http://slayerfanfic.com/T/TheSlainKnight/yoda5.html
A sigil representing the aim was created, and an image and name for the servitor were derived from it. The servitor I created was a vampiric dragon who went by the name of Sith, while an earlier servitor, which was also successful, was a vampire goldfish with damn big teeth. (Goes to show, you never can tell...)Source: http://nnk.art.pl/kluseczka/czarnamagia/rituals_vampiric_magick.html
Dearg-due


Origin: Ireland. A celtic legend says that a famous female called Dearg-due (red blood sucker) is buried near Strongbow's Tree in Waterford. In Scotland the vampire legend was called baobhan sith, and lurked in the mountains.

Description: She purportedly arises once a year from her grave to seduce men into her embrace and drains them dry of blood.

Weaknesses: The way to prevent the undead from arising, according to Irish legend, is to build a cairn of stones over its grave. Source: http://vampires.monstrous.com/universal_vampire.htm

Looks like old Celtic legend also called Vampires Sith.

There are just a few links and tidbits of mention with the word Sith and Vampire in relation to each other on the Internet, so saying that it was done here first is presumptious.

[OW outcast]

Originally posted by Pandora Damaris
The problem with having someone suddenly create a vampire is that it messes up the story line which has been ongoing for four years. It's happened before and we've had to tell people before. They come in and start making up their own ideas as to how the vampire became established, but we have already set in the story line how they became established.

It's as if someone comes in and decides that the way the Sith and Jedi were established no longer counts, and they basically "rewrite" the story that George Lucas originally established and that the Jedi and Sith here have played off of.

Its called a belief system, it doesn't nessarily mean your storyline or there storyline is right on how vampires came to be. Its like in really no one truelly nows how humans came into existance and many people have there beliefs on how. A belief can not be be provin wrong for the most part. I have my own views on how jedi and sith came to be based on each of my idividual characters.

So don't say just because your belief system came before some its the right belief in the vampire history. People can have there own views on how it came to be. It would give you to much power if you decided how everyone character should believe and leave this rping game no fun IMO.

[Alana Stormcloud]

Sigh..... Look the fact is the species of Force using vampires is a creation of Saurron and all we ask is that you get permission before creating one out of common courtesy and to read our story line so you do not mess it up.

Is that so hard to understand. We are not bad people in fact we are very fair and nice. Ask Gerbo Lang and his half vamp hunter char. We rp with him due to the fact he was, I state was nice enough to follow our story line. That is all we ask.

[Pandora Damaris]

"That would meen... since I am the first Force Using Omwatii.... Does that meen that I get to say who can and can't be a force Using Omwatii?.... or does it meen that since Ryla was the first force using blue skined person, that I nead her permistion?"

If the Omwatii is something that you didn't create, then yes you would need her permission. If it's a character that was already established as a SW character from some other source, than no. As such, I don't know about the Omwatii, so I couldn't tell you.

[Alana Stormcloud]

Morg I did not doublespeak as you so eloquently put it. Saurron is the Shrine Patriarch. And he also is Alana’s master so yes I think I had a right to make the Shrine ok....

[Severen Morkonis]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
Sigh..... Look the fact is the species of Force using vampires is a creation of Saurron and all we ask is that you get permission before creating one out of common courtesy and to read our story line so you do not mess it up.

Is that so hard to understand. We are not bad people in fact we are very fair and nice. Ask Gerbo Lang and his half vamp hunter char. We rp with him due to the fact he was, I state was nice enough to follow our story line. That is all we ask.

:\ this is exactly what the discussion is about...

[Charley]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
Sigh..... Look the fact is the species of Force using vampires is a creation of Saurron and all we ask is that you get permission before creating one out of common courtesy and to read our story line so you do not mess it up.

Is that so hard to understand. We are not bad people in fact we are very fair and nice. Ask Gerbo Lang and his half vamp hunter char. We rp with him due to the fact he was, I state was nice enough to follow our story line. That is all we ask.

What you are asking simply cannot be enforced by the greater administration over Swfans. Over the Shrine, yes...you have that autonomy, but we cannot do such a thing to cover all other areas. There is no justification for it.

[Xazor Elessar]

I know what you're saying, Marcus -- I wasn't trying to start a war here. That's why I didn't want to get in the middle of that, I'm on both sides.

:\ This has turned into a flame fest, and I think it's wrong to denounce someone's ideas because you (Morg in particular) don't agree with it.

This was a simple question to Mr. Net to please allow The Shrine the courtesy of one asking us to create a Sith Vamp. I'm sure that there won't be a problem if you create a Vamp and don't claim to possess the same rights/powers as a Shrine member does. I agree with Alana when she says that it is a courtesy to the Fans board to use the Force rather than regular Vamp powers.

I just don't see why this is being brought up now. :\

[Morgan Evanar]

If the Omwatii is something that you didn't create, then yes you would need her permission.

Does the creation of a power grant you special control? What if someone else RPs for a year to develope it? Is their ability to use it null and void if the "Creator" says no?

[TheHolo.Net]

Forcing all others who wish to create Vamp characters to use your history is dictatorial, and dictating what people can or cannot do on the whole of SWFans.Net forums is not within your rights. You can have any rules you wish for the Shrine forums themselves as long as their scope does not encompass forums that are not under your jurisdiction, when it comes to race, or class limitations.

Its very obvious that there is no consesus of opinion backing the shrine's current position on this. I have already received several PM's from members who have not posted in this thread saying they agree with what I have proposed here, just as its possible that members of the Shrine may have gotten Pms with the opposite view.

Its clear at this point that there is no single opnion among everyone, but as I stand as an admin of the "SWFans.Net RP" category forums, this rule of yours cannot be upheld by my staff.

[Morgan Evanar]

Morg I did not doublespeak as you so eloquently put it. Saurron is the Shrine Patriarch. And he also is Alana’s master so yes I think I had a right to make the Shrine ok.... STOP SIDESTEPPING THE ISSUE.

WHEN YOU SPLINTERED, DID HE GIVE YOU EXPRESS WRITTEN CONSENT TO CREATE MORE VAMPIRES, SINCE THAT IS BASICALLY WHAT YOU ARE REQUIRING ANYONE ELSE AT SWFANS TO HAVE?!?!

[Lord Soth]

SW guy...Your post was noted..However, that is not the concern here as we are dissussing the forms here at SWfan's and not somebody elses boards...(The idea "Story Line" was brought to SWfan's by Saurron and this is the focus.)

[Sorsha Kasajian]

Originally posted by Sorsha Kasajian
~ It is a violation of our FAQ's of the Shrine to run a Vampire Char. without the express permission of the Shrine Council. As all other forums here at SWfans we respect the individuality of each group. Please respect ours. It is common courtesy and good manners to ask first before you run a Char. species that has already been well established. *Any "Rogue Vampire Char. or Sub-Class Vampire" will not be acknowledged or tolerated. If an RPer is found in violation of creating a Vampire Char. without permission or admittance here at the Shrine by the whole Council, appropriate action will be taken and reported immediately to the SWfans Admin's. ~


quoting the whole post, and not a portion of it would be more useful to the argument.

This is the point of contention, Xazor.

[Alana Stormcloud]

That is fine Mr. Net I will edit the rules to not include your areas. But I would at least like it stated that our story line and or mention of our char by other vamps will be moderated by you and the other staff members.

[OW outcast]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
Sigh..... Look the fact is the species of Force using vampires is a creation of Saurron and all we ask is that you get permission before creating one out of common courtesy and to read our story line so you do not mess it up.

Is that so hard to understand. We are not bad people in fact we are very fair and nice. Ask Gerbo Lang and his half vamp hunter char. We rp with him due to the fact he was, I state was nice enough to follow our story line. That is all we ask.

I know Gerbo Lang very well and he is the type of guy who even asked if it was alright to play a Jedi before he started one. Its just the type of person he is, he rarely likes to get into conflicts so he figures it best to step aside. Based on your own he didn't even have to ask because his charcter gerbo is neather a sith or even force sensitive and is even a ful fledged vampire. He asked because he didn't want to ruin someone elses fun. so next time please leave my charcters out of this discusion alana.

OW = Gerbo Lang

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Lord Soth
SW guy...Your post was noted..However, that is not the concern here as we are dissussing the forms here at SWfan's and not somebody elses boards...(The idea "Story Line" was brought to SWfan's by Saurron and this is the focus.) The focus is that the Shrine is dictating SWFans.Net RP category rules to me without even consulting the SWFans.Net RP category administration first.

By the Rule that was copied directly from the Shrine FAQ and quoted here several times.

[Severen Morkonis]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
That is fine Mr. Net I will edit the rules to not include your areas. But I would at least like it stated that our story line and or mention of our char by other vamps will be moderated by you and the other staff members.

Morg she side-stepped it again...lol

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
That is fine Mr. Net I will edit the rules to not include your areas. But I would at least like it stated that our story line and or mention of our char by other vamps will be moderated by you and the other staff members. My proposed changes to your rule cover exaclty that.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Sieken Kasstra
Morg she side-stepped it again...lol Lets just let that slide folks, and focus on the real issue which is their rule not who did what first.

[Charley]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
That is fine Mr. Net I will edit the rules to not include your areas. But I would at least like it stated that our story line and or mention of our char by other vamps will be moderated by you and the other staff members.

So all you want is to make sure that nobody writes themselves into your own personal storyline? Thats not anything specific. That's a given, under "thou shalt not godmode". If they're trying to write themselves into your personal storyline (ie, not just being a Sith vampire, but your character's immediate storyline), and they don't have your permission or any past basis for that claim, then that would fall under anti-godmoding policy.

[Alana Stormcloud]

I only used your name Gerbo because I said you were kind enough to ask us about our story line. If you prefer me not saying anything nice about you that is more than fine. Do not expect me to ever mention u again :) And Morg I do not answer people who act as you do. Ask Saurron or I can call him and ask since he is an RL friend :)

This is turning into a flame fest on us as I said it would. Thanks to you Xaz for being kind enough to at least see our view. :) Mr. Net I will go edit my FAQ not to involve you but as I stated I would at least like you to uphold that our story line, where we are from and our char's names or storylines cannot be used. Is that all right with you?

[Morgan Evanar]

My point could absolutely destroy their main contention for the rule, but yessir.

-sulks off, beaten by the moderator.-

[TheHolo.Net]

I see no flames and have already stopped what could have developed into them.

And to repost:
Here is a proposal for how your rule could be changed which I personally would support::


"~ It is a violation of our FAQ's of the Shrine to run a Vampire Char. that is in any way related to the Shrine or any of its members without the express permission of the Shrine Council. As all other forums here at SWfans we respect the individuality of each group. Please respect ours. If an RPer is found in violation of creating a Vampire Char. related to the Shrine or any Shrine member without permission or admittance here at the Shrine by the whole Council, appropriate action will be taken and reported immediately to the SWfans Admin's. ~"

[imported_Blade Ice]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
I only used your name Gerbo because I said you were kind enough to ask us about our story line. If you prefer me not saying anything nice about you that is more than fine. Do not expect me to ever mention u again :) And Morg I do not answer people who act as you do. Ask Saurron or I can call him and ask since he is an RL friend :)

This is turning into a flame fest on us as I said it would. Thanks to you Xaz for being kind enough to at least see our view. :) Mr. Net I will go edit my FAQ not to involve you but as I stated I would at least like you to uphold that our story line, where we are from and our char's names or storylines cannot be used. Is that all right with you?

Just so you understand alana I just don't like to be mention by name in threads such as this. I'm aware it was in good terms but the fact is I may be a good enough person to agree to and follow your storyline but that does not mean I believe everybody should have to follow in my path. I believe everyone should be able RP what ever character type they wish with freedom. Even a Dhampire although I would strongly suggest to those who wish to not make them force sensitive because it would make the character prone to God moding.

Alana I may not follow your belief on this matter but its because I see no Logic to it what so ever. A sith vampire should be a free character idea for all not one for the shrine or even another vampire group to try and control.

[Lord Soth]

I will state this for the record...We will NOT acknowledge any other Vampyre/Class or however one what’s to put it outside of the Shrine/Coven area. As this is our right to do so...

Morg,...Stop flaming Alana. Saurron in RL is one of my best friend's and what you think you know is different then what I know as FACT. The “splinter” was even RP'd out at the Coven IC and he was part of it...Our Story Line here leave's off from that situation so know YOUR fact's before you open your mouth on something your only guessing about.


http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24585

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Lord Soth
I will state this for the record...We will NOT acknowledge any other Vampyre/Class or however one what’s to put it outside of the Shrine/Coven area. As this is our right to do so.. And that is your right I agree, but do not take the Shrine's rule and try to make it one that encompasses everyone on forums that are not your own.

Also, I stopped the flames, do not attempt to feed them.

[Lord Soth]

SW guy...You moved the thread when I posted...This was intended as a comment for the Shrine discussion not the open ooc board before I realized this…

[TheHolo.Net]

Okay

[Morgan Evanar]

Morg,...Stop flaming Alana My question debunked one of the Shrine's initial arguements, and was never satisfactorily answered. Beyond claiming doublespeak, and using all caps in my last post adressing her, I have done nothing that could even be termed offensive, the crux of a "flame" post.

-shrug-

I suppose you can interpret my posts whichever way you please.

[Pandora Damaris]

"Sith Witch is a title I came up with. Nothing more. I hardly hold any copyright on it, any more than I have copyright over the word Chaos"

I hate to burst your bubble, but Sith Witch was created in The Courtship of Princess Leia. Dathomire was inhabited by Sith Witches.

--------------------------------------------------------------------


"Baobhan-sith

A Scotish vampire that normally disguised itself as a beautiful maiden and lured its victims to there deaths. In fairy lore the Baobhan-sith usually appeared dressed in green."


"A sigil representing the aim was created, and an image and name for the servitor were derived from it. The servitor I created was a vampiric dragon who went by the name of Sith, while an earlier servitor, which was also successful, was a vampire goldfish with damn big teeth. (Goes to show, you never can tell...)"


"Dearg-due


Origin: Ireland. A celtic legend says that a famous female called Dearg-due (red blood sucker) is buried near Strongbow's Tree in Waterford. In Scotland the vampire legend was called baobhan sith, and lurked in the mountains.

Description: She purportedly arises once a year from her grave to seduce men into her embrace and drains them dry of blood.

Weaknesses: The way to prevent the undead from arising, according to Irish legend, is to build a cairn of stones over its grave."


We are not Boaghan-siths, Sigils, or Dearg-dues. All you have mentioned are species that have vampiric traits which we have already stated existed.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Its called a belief system, it doesn't nessarily mean your storyline or there storyline is right on how vampires came to be. Its like in really no one truelly nows how humans came into existance and many people have there beliefs on how. A belief can not be be provin wrong for the most part. I have my own views on how jedi and sith came to be based on each of my idividual characters.

So don't say just because your belief system came before some its the right belief in the vampire history. People can have there own views on how it came to be. It would give you to much power if you decided how everyone character should believe and leave this rping game no fun IMO."


I'm not talking about a belief system. We all have our own views as to how the Sith and Jedi came about and how George Lucas's story unfolds. That's not the issue. We're talking about the creation that we came up with and started here at SWFans. If someone decided they wanted to run off and create a their own Vampire colony at TheForce.net, then I wouldn't stop them. That's a whole nother board that contains it's own stories. We're talking about the story line that's situated here at SWFans. Even though certain events have taken place here at SWFans, we all still hold our own personal beliefs on certain characters, so that's not the issue.

------------------------------------------------------------


"quote:
If the Omwatii is something that you didn't create, then yes you would need her permission.




Does the creation of a power grant you special control? What if someone else RPs for a year to develope it? Is their ability to use it null and void if the "Creator" says no?"


If you created something then yes. You have control over your own creation. What do you think copywriting is? Why do you think that movie studios and writers go after people who try and use the material they came up with? Because it wasn't their right in the first place to take it.


----------------------------------------------------------


"STOP SIDESTEPPING THE ISSUE.

WHEN YOU SPLINTERED, DID HE GIVE YOU EXPRESS WRITTEN CONSENT TO CREATE MORE VAMPIRES, SINCE THAT IS BASICALLY WHAT YOU ARE REQUIRING ANYONE ELSE AT SWFANS TO HAVE?!?!"


Uh, Morgan. I think you need to cool it. We're trying to have a peacful discussion here.

[TheHolo.Net]

ahem!!!

Morg, Soth, Alana, please drop this trail of argument as it is irrelevant at this point. Seeing that the shrine has agreed to change their rule to not encompass all of the SWFans.Net Forums which was the point of this thread.

[Severen Morkonis]

Originally posted by Pandora Damaris
I hate to burst your bubble, but Sith Witch was created in The Courtship of Princess Leia. Dathomire was inhabited by Sith Witches.

And if she had known this i full trust she would had said it...

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Pandora Damaris
If you created something then yes. You have control over your own creation. What do you think copywriting is? Why do you think that movie studios and writers go after people who try and use the material they came up with? Because it wasn't their right in the first place to take it.But its has already been established that Vapires are not original. To be an original creation whether linked to the Force or not would require that Surron be hundreds of years old in real life, which he is not.

If you had used another term besides Vampire of orginal creation such as Slitpyre or whatever (poor example I know) then excluded people from creating that race type without your permission, this argument would not be happening.

[Alana Stormcloud]

I did drop it. Others have responded to it now because it went faster than they could post. You point was made, and the witch hunt ends. I request this thread be closed until our PATRIARCH Saurron can respond to what he has created.... thanks:)

[Severen Morkonis]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
I did drop it. Others have responded to it now because it went faster than they could post. You point was made, and the witch hunt ends. I request this thread be closed until our PATRIARCH Saurron can respond to what he has created.... thanks:)

Its not witch hunt, mearly a thread which others can share opinions and thoughts. I have an opinion which is directed against the rule itself not the people of the Shrine.

[TheHolo.Net]

This has not become a flame fest and will not be closed unless it gets out of control.

Coloring this as a witch hunt is wrong. This is a debate of the Shrine's authority to create rules that encompass all of SWFans.Net on a whim without the SWFans.Net general board staff's permission.

There is no persecution here by the SWFans.Net General board staff whatsoever.

[Lord Soth]

But its has already been established that Vapires are not original. To be an original creation whether linked to the Force or not would require that Surron be hundreds of years old in real life, which he is not.


I hate to burst your bubble SW guy…It’s not Saurron’s IC “Blood-Line” that started our Linage that we are only laying claim to...Its Ashiva and her King, one he follows himself. A Story Line that’s been well Rp’d out and established before hand…Not hundreds of years mind you,…Thousand’s. If other “Rouge/ Vampyre’s” don’t jive with that story line that the Shrine/Coven has created in its genealogy,…Then it’s as plain and simple as this…We won’t acknowledge you at all…We’ve worked to damn hard on the Vampyre Linage here at SWfan’s and before the board went VB to just have it blatantly kicked to the curb. I’m appalled that this is not being upheld throughout this community as we are a part of it and specialized in this particular area.

Reference: http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24585

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Lord Soth
I hate to burst your bubble SW guy…It’s not Saurron’s IC “Blood-Line” that started our Linage that we are only laying claim to...Its Ashiva and her King, one he follows himself. A Story Line that’s been well Rp’d out and established before hand…Not hundreds of years mind you,…Thousand’s. If other “Rouge/ Vampyre’s” don’t jive with that story line that the Shrine/Coven has created in its genealogy,…Then it’s as plain and simple as this…We won’t acknowledge you at all…We’ve worked to damn hard on the Vampyre Linage here at SWfan’s and before the board went VB to just have it blatantly kicked to the curb. I’m appalled that this is not being upheld throughout this community as we are a part of it and specialized in this particular area.

Reference: http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24585 My proposed rule change does not infringe on your story line, in fact it does protect it. Read carefully. My bubble is not burst. You will not control the members of this community and their freedom to create a race/class/species that is nearly as widely known as the human race itself, and then try to blur the lines of time using IC timelines as opposed to real life centuries of literature that say the race you are using is not an original one because you or someone else chose to use the term Vampire for it.
If you had used another term besides Vampire of orginal creation such as Slitpyre or whatever (poor example I know) then excluded people from creating that race type without your permission, this argument would not be happening.

[imported_Eve]

I see no flame fest. This is a valid concern, IMO.

So, to sum up :

Shrine FAQ can not dictate general SWFans board policy as The Shrine is currently under jurisdiction of SWFans. Beyond all other debating, this is FACT for all member communities. Therefore, the Shrine FAQ is being edited within SWFans perimeters. Else, FAQ is null (on the point in question) as no action would be taken by the general staff who do not follow alternate policy.

SWFans.Net is a privately owned, but publicly used forum, whereas the intellectual property of George Lucas is expanded and used for non-profit entertainment purposes only. Variances are accepted as long as these variances are acceptable in the known Star Wars universe or else the purpose of this board would be negated.

(Dead force users?)

It would be neat if people could stick to the issue here, not take things personally, not call this debate anything other than that, and allow artistic freedom to occur (in roleplaying).

So ... I CALL HUMAN WATER DWELLERS! IF YOU USE ONE I WILL TELL ON YOU! :)

I'm joking... You get me though? I didn't create the idea of mermaids.

[Ka' el Darcverse]

A few thoughts from the Peanut Gallery.

Claim to Vampire in my mind no, but...

According to all Vampire lore and whatever we are going with, there has to be an established way of becoming said Vampire, much like you must train to become a Jedi Knight, someone must turn you to be a Vampire.

Lord Dagger was not a Vampire as in blood sucker, he fed off "le sigh" Midi-Chloreans and took no blood. Infact he fed through thingies on his hand.

In reference to stopping someone from playing a race, as I read the thread in question that started this, Marcus and Morgan had said no to any Jedi Vampires (at least at GJO and with Marcus just saying he can refuse to recognize any rank of Jedi not in GJO that puts a damper on a rogue Jedi Vamp attaining a rank), hence telling someone what they could and couldn't do with a race. (I apologize if I misread and will immediately edit if it is brought to my attention that I am mistaken.)

So where does this bring us too?

I have no clue it seems that the rules are a bit cluster screwed and need to be thought over on a few of these issues.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Ka' el Darcverse
In reference to stopping someone from playing a race, as I read the thread in question that started this, Marcus and Morgan had said no to any Jedi Vampires (at least at GJO and with Marcus just saying he can refuse to recognize any rank of Jedi not in GJO that puts a damper on a rogue Jedi Vamp attaining a rank), hence telling someone what they could and couldn't do with a race. (I apologize if I misread and will immediately edit if it is brought to my attention that I am mistaken.)

So where does this bring us too?
The actual policy is that characters are best accepted when they have a documented history of training and time spent developing their character to become of a powerful level, such as Jedi Knight, Sith Lord or whatever. There is no policy that states they have to train within an established group to do so.P.S. Marcus can choose to not recognize a rank fo anyone he so wishes, that does not mean that such rank may or may not be recognized by the SWFans.Net General staff. Se my last quote for criterea.

[Ka' el Darcverse]

I stand corrected, thank you Monsignor Fans :)

But that still doesn't clear up the fact that one of the most respected if not the most respected Jedi at Fans is refusing to accept your rank, which limits your (for lack of better term) "street crediblity" although according to the rules he would technically have no say on whether said character could be a Jedi Master, how many people are going to rp with that character? (And I hope Marcus understands that I'm just using him as an example, if Figs held the same stand or was vocal if he does about the issue I would quote him too.)

I'm not just bringing this up to play Devil's Advocate even though like many I don't like the idea of one group having sole control over the rping of a race or archtype. I am bringing this up because there are some serious questions that need to be answered and I feel that this debate is as good a place as any.

[Navaria Tarkin]

It’s not Saurron’s IC “Blood-Line” that started our Linage that we are only laying claim to...Its Ashiva and her King, one he follows himself

um .... but that isnt your idea either. That is Anne Rice's idea from Queen of the Damn. Word for word. So this isn't an original creation at all from the Sith Vampire to the History. Granted, I do know from readling the posts that have been done at the Shrine, some things were changed around but it is the basic concept taken from another medium which was not created by the Shrine.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Ahem, quote me correctly. ranks not earned are not recognised.


In roleplaying, you cant stop anyone playing a race. You can stop them from playing a skill if they have not legitimatly gained it.

I cant stop another Jedi Master from going Lost - Lost is canon. a Lost Jedi is a clearly defined canon Jedi type. That would not be fair if I said I could be the only Lost character type. I CAN stop them from playing a Jedi Master as here as you have to pass a skill standard.

I didnt say how or defined it - I simply said if you dont earn your skill, you cant have it. That is a clear policy of the roleplaying community.

[Alana Stormcloud]

No I’m afraid Nav it isn’t word for word. The queen of the damned wanted all others dead I rp her as being a protector of the Shrine. The only thing that has remained the same is that she is the mother of all vamps and she has the name. That is the extent of anything that would be the same.

Need to read the sticky stories I rped out.....

[DarthHERA]

I have a question - (and just to advise Im not mad or annoyed or siding or anything - just asking a fair question)

Under the amended Shrine FAQ, basically, I can start my own Vamp group, completely discount or ignore the Lineage that the Shrine have roleplayed out over the years and theres nothing the Shrine members can do about it?

While this is probably fair for all new Vamp characters that are to be future made, it doesn't seem at all fair to those who have labored all this time to establish their group and lore.


I agree with the point that no one group should monoploize or dictate a race etc...but surely something counts for all the backstory/lineage that had been set up already? How can that have no sway at all on new Vamp characters?

[Navaria Tarkin]

I said almost word for word. Mother of all Vampires and her name and picture is almost word for word IMO. Didnt say it was completely.

And actually, since that stuff is copyrighted by Anne Rice herself, names and pictures like that shouldnt be used.

[Charley]

Originally posted by DarthHERA
I have a question - (and just to advise Im not mad or annoyed or siding or anything - just asking a fair question)

Under the amended Shrine FAQ, basically, I can start my own Vamp group, completely discount or ignore the Lineage that the Shrine have roleplayed out over the years and theres nothing the Shrine members can do about it?

While this is probably fair for all new Vamp characters that are to be future made, it doesn't seem at all fair to those who have labored all this time to establish their group and lore.


I agree with the point that no one group should monoploize or dictate a race etc...but surely something counts for all the backstory/lineage that had been set up already? How can that have no sway at all on new Vamp characters?

Because if you're doing such away from others' storylines, then it has no bearing on them whatsoever?

[Moltar]

Ok...lets see
So a non- Shrine/Coven Sith Vampire was created, and the Shrine doesn't like it, so they decide that any Vampire here at SWFans, if not a member, is not a vampire.

Uh...How can I phrase this in as few words as possible?

No, you can't do that.

Thats like Walmart telling K-mart that it can't sell shoes because Walmart sells shoes. No one here has the right to tell someone that if they create a character that is apart of someone's elses race that they have to join a group and be apart of that story.

[DarthHERA]

But in the SWFans Community, how is that possible? You may as well be at another board then, no?

I mean individual stories I guess, but sooner or later, its gotta converge.

Moltar, my point wasnt that new chars should be a part of the Shrine - I meant more along the lines of the lore that has been set up can be ignored if the new Char decides it. *shrugs*

[Ka' el Darcverse]

To Marcus, my apologies in trying to catch up with the thread when i posted I didn't not read you 100% correctly

As to what Hera just said, that is exactly what I mean. There is an established storyline on the Vampires and there existance here at fans. Again I don't think they should have the ultimate say, but I think it would be Kosher to sort of have an agreement of sorts that limits Vampires of the same ilk as the Shrine, not including the Force Vamps of the Lord Dagger variant that states that they would atleast honor the established storyline. Again I know that Vampires are a race, but they are a created race, you have to do somethign or have something done to you to become a Vampire it isn't like you are born that way, which makes it different.

(to clarify I am not a vampire rper, in fact I don't really like the whole vampire set up, but it's established and allowed and so I accept it and respect those who do rp as shrine for their skill in writing.)

[Alana Stormcloud]

So now you’re going to tell me not to use her name and pic even though I have been using it this long Nav????? And you’re still going to tell me this isn’t a witch hunt huh....

The whole point is we have a long established story line with the vamps are we are asking for is common courtesy.

[TheHolo.Net]

Lets look at it a little like this, at least its how I am:

People have been writing stories telling myths whatever about vampires for at least a thousand years or so (by my gues-timation, possibly not quite that long or possibly even more than a single century).

How long do you think it takes to write a complete novel? Months, years, decades?

For some it probably takes decades, for others months, and for others maybe just a few years.

Do all the pieces of literature regarding Vampire's pay homage to any one source?

Considering the stories I have seen and read throughout my lifetime, I don't think so.

This really breaks down to the "intellectual property" thing I mentioned before. The Idea of "Vampire" is not clearly defined as being any single strictly defined condition/race that can be universally agreed upon because of the vast array of literature that already exists, therefore it is my opinion that no way is there one correct way. Any writer be they novelist, short story writer, or RP writer should be free to interpret and or create this race's concept how they choose to see or believe or even not believe in it.

The concept of Vampire is not the intellectual property of the Shrine, and tacking the word Sith onto it does not change the fact that is a vampire and make it an all new all original concept, as I have said, its simple linear logic.

[Charley]

Who's to say there's only one vampyric genesis? Not that I like the idea much period, but if you're going to consider it happening once, why not a multitude of times? Its a big galaxy.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
So now you’re going to tell me not to use her name and pic even though I have been using it this long Nav????? And you’re still going to tell me this isn’t a witch hunt huh....

The whole point is we have a long established story line with the vamps are we are asking for is common courtesy. This will not become a drama because you think it is opr possibly want it to be. Stop with the false accusations of flames and witch hunts now.

[Moltar]

Ok...
I think SWFans.net has summed it all up in a nutshell. I don't know whats left to argue about it, except maybe bragging rights.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Agent Charley
Who's to say there's only one vampyric genesis? Not that I like the idea much period, but if you're going to consider it happening once, why not a multitude of times? Its a big galaxy. Ding ding ding, that is the correct answer.

[Navaria Tarkin]

No it's not a witch hunt. I was just pointing out that you are borrowing from a lot of concepts and that the actual Sith Vampire is not original in the least coming from all these sources and messed together.

Apologies. Tired as hell and things arent coming out right for being up for what, twelve hours and working but to be fair and blunt, of you will, yeah you are breaking copyright it is plain and simple.

Out of this debate now. Due to tiredness.

[Pandora Damaris]

"Ok...lets see So a non- Shrine/Coven Sith Vampire was created, and the Shrine doesn't like it, so they decide that any Vampire here at SWFans, if not a member, is not a vampire.

Uh...How can I phrase this in as few words as possible?

No, you can't do that.

Thats like Walmart telling K-mart that it can't sell shoes because Walmart sells shoes. No one here has the right to tell someone that if they create a character that is apart of someone's elses race that they have to join a group and be apart of that story."

No, we're not saying that at all. We're saying that you should at least talk to us about it so that the storyline doesn't become tainted so to say.

[Alana Stormcloud]

If I were making it up I wouldn’t say it...... Also I didn’t say we owned the rights to regular vamps. I said we would like to be asked out of common courtesy before a force using vamp is made. Due to our established story line. We have worked long and hard on this, and yes at the moment we are at Fans the only Vampire board that has force using vampires so does that not give us some right??

Nav I have been using that same pic since I made Ashiva why the sudden concern on it then? The storyline is that a storyline she may be the mother of all vamps but I do not go solely by Anne Rice with her. I do not repeat how she was made in the interview book. I only call her the mother of all vamps. There is nothing else besides name and that she is the mother that is the same. Read the book there is a lot more to Ashiva in it than what I have given to the one I run as a Sith Vamp.....

[Moltar]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
So now you’re going to tell me not to use her name and pic even though I have been using it this long Nav????? And you’re still going to tell me this isn’t a witch hunt huh....

The whole point is we have a long established story line with the vamps are we are asking for is common courtesy.

This is not a Witch hunt, everyone in the forum is heavier then a duck (Monty Python Refrence), so no worries about that. Keep your pic, name, ect...

As for the story line, would this new Vamp damage it in any way?

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Pandora Damaris
No, we're not saying that at all. We're saying that you should at least talk to us about it so that the storyline doesn't become tainted so to say. You are being close minded and not allowing yourself to see any other belief as possible other than your own
Lets look at it a little like this, at least its how I am:

People have been writing stories telling myths whatever about vampires for at least a thousand years or so (by my gues-timation, possibly not quite that long or possibly even more than a single century).

How long do you think it takes to write a complete novel? Months, years, decades?

For some it probably takes decades, for others months, and for others maybe just a few years.

Do all the pieces of literature regarding Vampire's pay homage to any one source?

Considering the stories I have seen and read throughout my lifetime, I don't think so.

This really breaks down to the "intellectual property" thing I mentioned before. The Idea of "Vampire" is not clearly defined as being any single strictly defined condition/race that can be universally agreed upon because of the vast array of literature that already exists, therefore it is my opinion that no way is there one correct way. Any writer be they novelist, short story writer, or RP writer should be free to interpret and or create this race's concept how they choose to see or believe or even not believe in it.

[Lord Soth]

My proposed rule change does not infringe on your story line, in fact it does protect it. Read carefully. My bubble is not burst. You will not control the members of this community and their freedom to create a race/class/species that is nearly as widely known as the human race itself, and then try to blur the lines of time using IC timelines as opposed to real life centuries of literature that say the race you are using is not an original one because you or someone else chose to use the term Vampire for it.




Listen...I'm not controlling anyone as your trying to put on me dude! If peep want to create a Vamp they can go right ahead...We just won’t acknowledge them or to OUR story line linage...Simple as that...

And again...SW guy are missing the point...There is no blur of time lines here...We are NOT part of what you think of as "Traditional Lore" as you keep repeating over and over again...sigh...Doesn’t have a damn thing to do with it. We only use Ann Rice SL is a guide line and example to help others better understand the CHR. as a Vampyre newbie….Nothing more,…Nothing less.

I'm not refuting your decision on the SW rules FAQ for the Shrine, but I'll be damned if you’re going to set here and tell me how and where our Vamps came from at the Shrine and then compare them to your lame analogy of lore in RL term's, say it’s a blurry time line…Think again…Remember this is our take on Vamp's at the Shrine in the SW universe not yours!

[Pierce Tondry]

You're assuming that the Shrine Vampires are the source of Vampirism in general, Jenn. No one ever said that somewhere along the line, the same thing that created the Shrine Vampires didn't happen to someone else, or happened in a different way that had the same effect. (In fact, I'd dare say that is the entire point of contention the debate has tried to clarify)

A person who wanted to start a second Vampire group could do so and claim a lineage separate from the Shrine so long as their own lineage wasn't something to the effect of "God appeared, waved his hand, and I was created, and then came the seventh day." They would have to teach themselves any powers they might want to have, and would have to obey the SWFans rules of common sense and fair play, but other than that the playing field is totally open.

(PS this post took a bit of time to write- if someone's posted in the interim with this same thing, oh, well. :))

[Charley]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
If I were making it up I wouldn’t say it...... Also I didn’t say we owned the rights to regular vamps. I said we would like to be asked out of common courtesy before a force using vamp is made. Due to our established story line. We have worked long and hard on this, and yes at the moment we are at Fans the only Vampire board that has force using vampires so does that not give us some right??

No.

[Ka' el Darcverse]

Sums it up nicely Charley. My question on the diverging storylines is now answered.

[DarthHERA]

Originally posted by Agent Charley
Who's to say there's only one vampyric genesis? Not that I like the idea much period, but if you're going to consider it happening once, why not a multitude of times? Its a big galaxy.

I agree with ya, Charley actually. It just seems that all the Shrine have worked at in trying to keep a pure lineage (so to speak) it not really counting for much.

Hopefully we wont see a plethora of Vamp chars now popping up like prairie dogs everyplace.

o_O

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Lord Soth
I'm not refuting your decision on the SW rules FAQ for the Shrine, but I'll be damned if you’re going to set here and tell me how and where our Vamps came from at the Shrine and then compare them to your lame analogy of lore in RL term's, say it’s a blurry time line…Think again…Remember this is our take on Vamp's at the Shrine in the SW universe not yours! Read, comprehend then post. I never once said your storylines had to be changed to fit in with any belief, not once not ever. In fact my proposed rule change did everything to protect your storyline within what I consider your "intellectual property"

Your "intellectual property" = Shrine vampires.

Did I say your history had to be changed? If so give me the sentence I did so in and include a post number, because I know for a fact you are mistaken.

[Moltar]

And Pandora,

As long as the Vampire is not hurting the Storyline there is no reason for your group to do anything to him or her. If the character does that, then you can talk to SWFans.net to talk to the guy or girl.

Your Storyline is protected, you do not have the right however to dictate to the members of this board what they can or can not do to their characters in any way. Only the Admins can do it and thats in cases of banning.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Over the years, even when I admined this site, people yelled and screamed that they could play their characters as they wish. Now, I dont believe this Anne Rice stuff belongs here, but I'm over that and simply put, that's neither here nor there in this issue.

You have no right to tell anyone else how to do anything unless they break the rules.

I would add one more thing to that - you can do what you want as long as it does not break rules or affect other players to their detriment.

Under that, the Shrine can not dictacte how I or anyone else plays if they are not affected. I could create a Vampire character and there is not a thing they or anyone else can do about it, unless I break rules or affect others to their detriment. I cant call it a Master cause I aint earned it, but the point remains - I have no right to tell others how to play their characters and in fact I remember flame fests on that very subject.

Thence, no one else can do it. The only place the Shrine can control how people do things is on their board, because it is an independant entity. At GJO, you would have to obey what I say, because GJO is an independant entity, paid for, controlled by the GJO admins group. Here at SW-Fans, the situation is different. The situation is exactly how i have outlined above.

Hell, I was using LOTR / David Eddings inspired ideas long before the LOTR moives came along. I did a lot of work defining how it could fit long before anyone else used LOTR templates for their characters. Be that as it may, it gives me no right to say how someone else will play a Numenorian. Maybe I'd like to see some one else try actually. Numenorians can fit in quite well.

Actually, I think DT / Marcus owes more to Sparhawk than to Aragorn.

eh well, that's all I have to say.

[Charley]

Hopefully we wont see a plethora of Vamp chars now popping up like prairie dogs everyplace.

Same here. There are things that n00bs naturally flock to, but after a while, die away from. The kind of people who'd make dime-a-dozen vamps are the kind who would carry 2 ysalimiri with them, and wear magical cortosis armor :rolleyes.

They either buy a clue and fix their crap, leave, or get ignored. Its the way of things.

[Alana Stormcloud]

The FAQ was changed to suit you Lets not go there and say we did how is that. All we are now stating is that do not use our story line. Like Mr. Net has put in the amended FAQ. Let's refrain from being derogatory about our forum if you please.

[Lord Soth]

and then try to blur the lines of time using IC timelines as opposed to real life centuries of literature that say the race you are using is not an original one because you or someone else chose to use the term Vampire for it.

Did you not say that SW dude?...lol Looks that way to me...

You’re using this as a comparison to what you deem as "Real Life Centuries of Literature" to what were doing and that in turn has noting to do with our Shrine linage in the first place.

Comprehend and read. As I said before, the word Vampyre is just that...A word...A flea is a sort of Vampyre…Are we claiming all “Flea’s” because they do this…no…lol.

[Charley]

I believe you misread my post. It wasn't meant to be derogatory to the Shrine, but instead the general ilk of newbies who make their characters Vampyre princes, demons, super cyborgs, genetic superbeings, and things like that. Those that are in it for the gimmick. That's what I'd like to avoid, not vampyres in general.

I'm not referring to established RPers, and even then, quite a bit of new people start off on the right foot, at that. Just a few bad apples every once in a while.

[imported_Firebird1]

Lord Soth: Chill!

As for the Storyline, I think it's best protected where it is. If you need more, put it in the storyboard forum. Since it's a "closed" forum, you can control who posts in it.

[Jakob Burton]

As many may or may not know, I run a Sith Vamp named H. A. Ferenczy from the Shrine. And now, here are my opinions:

On the owning of the race: No, out of the question. It'd be like having to ask permission for a group to play a human.

On the aspect of Vamp being evil: Evil is merely an opinion of things......should a Vamp be a Jedi? Perhaps, but not as likely....considering having to drink the blood to survive....but then again it'd kinda like a human eating the flesh of another being, which happens often, so perhaps a way could be found to be a Jedi Vamp, but the RPer doing so should make it more difficult due to the craving of blood.....It would actually make for an interesting RP in my opinion, so my answer is no. That would be like saying all fat people are lazy and all skinny people are work-aholics.....which isn't true....

Personally, I think the credo or the FAQ or whatever the hell you call it should perhaps be reworded......and the owning of races is not right and should be abolished......and the assumption of a species being entirely evil is just simply unfair and should not be allowed.


And now I think I've addressed it all..... If I burned any bridges with my Vamp buddies, whatever....these are my opinions and I'm entitled to them, and I hope you can be mature about this. Thanks.

[Verse Dawnstrider]

I agree with Mr. Net 110% on this.

I was the first, and I repeat, first person to have a werewolf like char on the board.

I was here before Vega was. I had a Sith char, Verse's twin Pivo, as a Sith before Vega came to SWFans, granted it may have only been a month or so, but I was here first.

Jen-Jen's Lupine race is alot like mine. We have even talked about it before. If I am rigth she even draws some of her stuff from the same source as I do. White Wolf. Does that mean the two races, Garou and Lupine, can not be both played? No it does not. Why? They have different histories and cultures. They are just alot alike.

I have not pressed the issue of others using Garou. I have RPed here a long time. I had alot of it's histroy already RPed out, but I have no right to say if others can or can not play Garou. Sten/Jake has a Garou that is not from Eden even though I said all Garou are from Eden. He has a good story to explain why. I have even used that to expand on 'my' race to include other planets.

Others have made Garou without asking me, but that is there right. This is a privitly owed, but publicly used board. I have no right to say who and who can not use the race I 'created'.

The bottom line is I don't flip the bill that keeps this place running. I just use it. I understand the Shrine not wanting otehr peopel to use thier histories with permission. That is wrong. That is like someone saying that there char is Verse's son without my permission. I completely understand the historic view. I would be POed if someone messed with my Garou of Eden history, but if they have there seperate history, that is not my concen as long as it does not change mine. If mine is not mentioned, I have no problem.

I think the Garou/Lupine are a great example. Two races that are alot alike, but both used. Both are used openly without complant.

Why you ask? IT IS JUST A FREAKING GAME!!!!!!!!! A FREAKING MAKE BELIEVE FAIRY TALE ONLINE TYPING GAME!!!!!!!!!!!

That is why I have never tried to restrict Garou use, because it isn't fair to the others on the board who have ideas. Thereofr I have no right to do so. I hope what I said made some sence because I am typing and about to fall asleep.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Lord Soth
Did you not say that SW dude?...lol Looks that way to me...

You’re using this as a comparison to what you deem as "Real Life Centuries of Literature" to what were doing and that in turn has noting to do with our Shrine linage in the first place.

Comprehend and read. As I said before, the word Vampyre is just that...A word...A flea is a sort of Vampyre…Are we claiming all “Flea’s” because they do this…no…lol. Let me put that sentence into context so that you can understand.

My arguments that the Shrine's use of the term Vampire is not original based on hundreds of years (or centuries) of literature that includes the word Vampire. Tacking the words "force user" or "sith" onto the word vampire is mere symantics and irrelevant. Vampires are not the Shrine or the Coven's original character type, just like the example I stated earlier with my Rodian Bounty Hunter was not an original concept that I could take sole ownership of.

You used the paragraph:
I hate to burst your bubble SW guy…It’s not Saurron’s IC “Blood-Line” that started our Linage that we are only laying claim to...Its Ashiva and her King, one he follows himself. A Story Line that’s been well Rp’d out and established before hand…Not hundreds of years mind you,…Thousand’s.None of my debate previous to your post indicated how long you or any of the Shrine members had been RPing the storyline on an IC basis. My comments regarding hundreds of years and or centuries were all in relation to the various Vampire mythos/stories that exist in literature.

In no way was I saying that you had to change the IC storyline of the Shrine, not even in that sentence you quoted.

[Pierce Tondry]

Soth: That's because you're reading it wrong. SWFans is not saying anything whatsoever in reference to your timeline in the RP. He is making the point that regardless of what you think, "Sith Vampires" are an adaptation of an existing creation already in the world of literature, not an original one.

Edit: Score another one for redundancy! Sorry SWFans- I've been about seven minutes behind on everything today.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Alana Stormcloud
The FAQ was changed to suit you Lets not go there and say we did how is that. All we are now stating is that do not use our story line. Like Mr. Net has put in the amended FAQ. I haven't put it into any ammended FAQ, I was only suggesting it as a proposal for your own FAQ that stayed within all around board operation, and involving m,y staff.

Thank you for making the change and sorry I missed your post before.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Pierce Tondry
Soth: That's because you're reading it wrong. SWFans is not saying anything whatsoever in reference to your timeline in the RP. He is making the point that regardless of what you think, "Sith Vampires" are an adaptation of an existing creation already in the world of literature, not an original one.

Edit: Score another one for redundancy! Sorry SWFans- I've been about seven minutes behind on everything today. Sometimes having another person repeat what I say in a different way can be a good thing, as it gives more clarification to what I was saying, especially when right on the button.

[Sene Unty]

The bottom line is I don't flip the bill that keeps this place running. I just use it. I understand the Shrine not wanting other people to use thier histories without permission. That is wrong. That is like someone saying that there char is Verse's son without my permission. I completely understand the historic view. I would be POed if someone messed with my Garou of Eden history, but if they have there seperate history, that is not my concen as long as it does not change mine. If mine is not mentioned, I have no problem.

I think the Garou/Lupine are a great example. Two races that are alot alike, but both used. Both are used openly without complant.

Why you ask? IT IS JUST A FREAKING GAME!!!!!!!!! A FREAKING MAKE BELIEVE FAIRY TALE ONLINE TYPING GAME!!!!!!!!!!!

You took the words right out of my mouth....

[Mockadane]

"Hello... is this the front desk? Yea this is Mockadane over here in roleplaying and theres a tremendous racket going on down the OOC hall... yea its loud enough to wake the dead!"

HAA... wake the dead... sometimes i just kill myself!

"Can you send someone up please?... "

LOLOLOL

[Verse Dawnstrider]

I try my best Sene. Pretty soon I will be up there with that Chinesse dude Confusious (s/p). I can see it now....

'Verse say..It is just an freaking game.'

All I need now is to get it in a fortune cookie.

[Lord Soth]

Ya Verse,...Most peep don't know the difference between "gaming and reality" out there...I do agree with ya there...However, I just think your preach'en to the choir now...:)

Tosses him a cookie

[Ryla Relvinian]

:lol @ entire thread.

Good gravy. In all honesty, I was nearly ready to reply to Shanaria and back her up wayyy back in the second page. What's so funny about this is
1:
IT IS JUST A FREAKING GAME!!!!!!!!! A FREAKING MAKE BELIEVE FAIRY TALE ONLINE TYPING GAME!!!!!!!!!!!

I couldn't have said it better myself. People get so friggin' antsy about their characters, and for good reason. I mean, we spend sooo much time online, shaping these made-up races and peoples and skills and technologies, and it sucks to have someone come and trounce upon your work. I know, trust me.

However, if someone came up to me with verifiable proof that, say, Ryla could not technically exist (such as an older SW gaming manual that proved that Twi'leki people could not breed interspecies, or something like that) I would shift her character accordingly, no probs. That doesn't mean I would be happy about it, but hey, I'd get the heck over it eventually. :)

*hands everyone a fortune cookie*

[Verse Dawnstrider]

This is my one time to preach Soth. Don't ruin it man. How many times can I say something that halfway makes sence.

Besides, the fact that this thread had to be created proves that people take all of this to far and to the choir I preach not.

::stuff random meanless phrases into the cookies.::

Edit. To clear up, the fact that a group has such a rule and gets in a tissy when asked about it is my point. I am on teh admins side. It didn't seem clear when I typed it, so I am correcting now.

[Lord Soth]

I hear ya...Preach on cuz I'm with ya on that one! :)

Edit:

*It's called standing up and fighting for what one believes in, regardless of the opposition and criticism...That's my point! :)

Tosses him another cookie o_O

[Sorsha Kasajian]

Originally posted by Lord Soth
I hear ya...Preach on cuz I'm with ya on that one! :)

Edit:

*It's called standing up and fighting for what one believes in, regardless of the opposition and criticism...That's my point! :)


That is really very interesting .... really. :|

[TheHolo.Net]

I was hoping to hear from Saurron since his name was dropped so many times in this thread, but it looks as if its going to be little more than flamebait and Saurron has been to Fans a couple of times since this thread has existed and not replied, so if he wishes to he can respond to it directly to me via PM and he and I can debate in private.

Thread closed.