Need Your Input

[imported_Eve]

Ogre and I were talking yesterday, and I will be "upgrading" our rules/regulations/terms. They will be longer, contain more, be more defined, and have clearly defined consequences for certain actions. Before any changes are formally made, it will come to you all for input, revision, etc.

Before I start hashing it out, I need some input from you all.

Issue One:
What are the issues that seem to reoccur daily here? What are the things that you see as problems? And what do you think the solutions to these issues are? Please also state if you think that people should be given warnings, and how many.

For example: Infiltration. Consequence should be banning. No warnings.

PM Spamming. One warning to cease. If it reoccurs, then banning.

Please list everything you can think of. For instance:

Infiltration
PM Spamming
Thread Spamming
Goodbye, pay attention to me threads
Plagerism
Godmoding
Flaming
Harrassing (Include what is offensive to say around here)
Foul Language
Content
RPing Rules (for the general forums)
Distinction between group rules and general rules. General supercedes.
Financial contributing

There are more.

Issue Two:
What do you think the disposition of the staff should be? Some people think we should call it like it is. Boards that we know that have mods that say what they want, tend to have less back talk. People know what to expect from the mods, and are less likely to pull out bs. This doesn't mean we have to be asses, but that we just are able to call it like it is.

Some people think professionality should be maintained at all times. This is a recreational board, for fun. Some people think being "rude" may detract membership.

What is your view?

Do you think there should be guidelines for staff?



That is good for now. I will research guidelines at other boards I visit for reference. I need you guys to tell me what's up.

Thank you for your time with this.

[Navaria Tarkin]

wish I didn't have to go to work so I could write something more concrete but I do notice there are still people that seemingly forget there is a 30k limit to sigs. That and OOC posting in the RPing sections

[Shawn]

What are the issues that seem to reoccur daily here? What are the things that you see as problems? And what do you think the solutions to these issues are? Please also state if you think that people should be given warnings, and how many.I think the underlying issue with 75% of the problems we have is that people are accustomed to having a friendly, "do-whatever-you-want" atmosphere. We've evolved a lot from the days when we'd have big nonsense fight threads where half the posters would god-mode, everyone would screw around and, at the end of the day, everyone would just laugh it off and move on.

We've attempted to become more "civilized", for lack of a better term, since we've left ezboard. At least, I know that I've been endeavoring to make this less of a goofy little fansite and more of something we can be proud of; A place for mature discussions and creative writing, not just one spamtastic thread after another. It's an uphill battle.

The point is, people are accustomed to the way things were, even in the face of this. If we attempt to enforce a little bit of maturity, it's seen as tyranny. There are quite a few people who like what I see as the immature atmosphere we have and who would rather leave and go somewhere else than see it dissolved. I'm not saying that we can't have a little fun here but things like "Attention Whoring" are very detrimental to the community.

A lot of people come here looking for "acceptance". And sure, you can make friends here. But it shouldn't become an overt issue where you're posting faux pas suicide notes on an internet forum (which has happened in the past - more than once).

Drama and Attention Whoring are the two major issues here. I know some people may be tired of myself and others using these as catch-all phrases for when someone is being immature, but that's what a lot of our problems really boil down to.

TL, DR (aka, the point of all this): If the problems are to go away, we really have to decide if we're going to promote a carefree, "immature" atmosphere, or if we're going to try and whip everyone into line. Either way, the staff should be completely united on enforcing one of these ideals, even if you don't personally agree with them. Having one staff member who feels one way and does one thing while another does something completely different just makes everyone's job more difficult. Riding the fence, as we're currently doing, is what causes conflict.

If you can't tell, I'm of the train of thought that flaming can possibly serve a purpose as negative reinforcement. For example: If you know that posting a "Goodbye" thread will not gain you sympathy and people begging for you to stay, but will only get you flames, you're much less likely to post such a thread. It makes our life easier. That is not to say that I randomly flame posters for every infraction, but it does mean that I'm much less sympathetic when a poster does something inappropriate and gets flamed for it.

But I try not to let my personal beliefs get in the way of how I do my job. I will not completely excuse someone who is breaking the rules and I have, in the past, had to call someone on their actions even though I didn't really disagree with them.

[imported_Eve]

Right Shawn. And I that's why I'm refining. We ride the fence for sure. That's why it needs to be clear what our focus and role is.

Like moding. Even though I have been on Charley's case, I would rather have mods like him then another saying the same thing with sugar coating on it. We're not here to be people's friends. We're here to help this place run. We can't make decisions because we are worried about what people think of us. I think that happens alot with some people here.

We need to hash out the boundaries for mods, and then we can deal with the membership. We can't be infighting over what was right and wrong action of a mod when the bigger picture is more important.

So, that's why I ask you all what YOU think the mod role should be.

Personally, as you can tell, I'm all for telling someone they're an idiot when they are. Basically, what is wrong with saying "I am the mod and I can point to the rules and regs to back me up, and you're misinformed - SO GET IT RIGHT"?

I told this to Ogre last night. We're all appointed or voted in for a reason. Why micromanage each other? When you were put in your position, someone thought you were ready for the job. So do your job. If a mod is consistantly causing problems, then we deal with him/her.

This endless debating about what to do is an easily solvable thing. We have clear guidelines, and clear consequences, and everyone gets treated the same.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I think the staff should be unified as well. Which is why when I have a problem with something that one might have said or done in a more public forum, I bring it up in here. I don't really want people to see us arguing in the streets.

I do not think that flaming solves anything. At all. Two wrongs don't make a right, as we've all been told. If anything, it only justifies the poster who started whatever it is that we're flaming them about. I think mods should be professional, but should also be able to say what they think. I guess I'm more of a fence sitter. But as a member of the staff, I'm willing to go along with the guidelines that are laid down.

There just aren't any, like you said. And I don't have time to think up any, as I'm going to be late for work. I'm also babysitting 9 kids tonight and tomorrow morning before I go back to work so you probably won't see me in here, even if I'm online (which I probably won't be.) Because, I'm sorry, every time I go online I don't always rememebr to check this forum. Or, if I check the last poster in this forum, if its the same person it was last time I checked, I don't check the forum again.

[ReaperFett]

If the problems are to go away, we really have to decide if we're going to promote a carefree, "immature" atmosphere, or if we're going to try and whip everyone into line.
Carefree, but with rules known. The reason we have such a good community is the immaturity.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
Or, if I check the last poster in this forum, if its the same person it was last time I checked, I don't check the forum again. You really should start using the features that I worked long and hard on for these forums. The Mark Read feature works much better than relying on who the last poster in a forum was. :p

I will comment more completely on the subject matter of this thread later on.

[TheHolo.Net]

Some initial thoughts/suggestions that of course need language touch ups, but this gets the idea across:

Signature filesize limits - First: One warning in edit byline. Second: Removal of signature through mod or admin CP in user profile. Third: If the offending signature is restored the user is placed in the Signature Probation Usergroup to only be removed after they have proved to the staff that they are ready to comply.

Attention Whoring and Forum Drama - Closure of such threads immediately, if continued to other threads or PMs, banning, no questions no arguments.

Posting in the proper place - Having account or general board problems? Post in the Communication forum. Want to test your signature or avatar? Post in the Misc forum. If not your post will be moved for you, if it continues to be ignored, you can lose your posting privs to the forum you keep insisting to post inappropriate material to.

Flaming or generally disrespecting staff members - No ifs, ands, or buts, you just found your way out the door. The Staff's word is law, that is final.

Mod/staff disposition - See above for part and to further expand, yes I do believe we need to remain professional in our overall approach, but...sugarcoating and coddling problem posters will no longer be done by any staff member. Problems need to be recognized quickly and dealt with just as quickly. If there is a more "no nonsense" approach then there will be less nonsense overall.

[ReaperFett]

If there is a more "no nonsense" approach then there will be less nonsense overall.
But possibly more upset people, meaning a split in the community.

[TheHolo.Net]

Its also possible that I could win a million dollars in the lottery today, but guess what? I am not going to let possibilities influence my decisions like that. That in itself is coddling the posters, being too damn nice and letting them walk all over us. I am not a doormat. I do not put loads of cash and loads of time into this place to have a select few push me around and influence what I know is right and wrong.

[TheHolo.Net]

OOC Forum Topic Tag definitions and use - Know them, love them, use them correctly. It is helpful for all when topics are tagged correctly.

[ReaperFett]

That in itself is coddling the posters, being too damn nice and letting them walk all over us
But what about the people who aren't trying to walk over us? The ones just here for fun?

[TheHolo.Net]

Their fun will still be there. I am not saying put an end to all the immaturity as you put it. I am saying that we should have an environment where posters and staffers alike know what to expect when there are problems.

No nonsense approach to handling problems + no drama = more time for fun

[Taylor Millard]

Posting in the proper place - Having account or general board problems? Post in the Communication forum. Want to test your signature or avatar? Post in the Misc forum. If not your post will be moved for you, if it continues to be ignored, you can lose your posting privs to the forum you keep insisting to post inappropriate material to.

That's a big one right there. It's like no one knows those forums exist.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Originally posted by SWFans.Net
You really should start using the features that I worked long and hard on for these forums. The Mark Read feature works much better than relying on who the last poster in a forum was. :p

I will comment more completely on the subject matter of this thread later on.

-_- I'm trying to get into the habit of doing that but as I'm sure some people know I have the memory of a senile gnat. I gave someone at CT at my board, forgot what I'd set it at, saw it later, and accused them of changing it themselves. I'm retarded sometimes. Forgive me plz. That being said, I'm trying to spend less time online as I'm going nuts from internet and RL stuff. I probably won't be sucessful, but I trust that everyone here will think up good rules and punishments, so if I don't post again in this thread, I agree with whatever it is you guys decide.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Their is a spaming issue Dizzy keeps posting some in the BO forums. But other than that I don't see any problems in those forums since Jon left.

[JMK]

I don't really have any complaints in the Star Wars section.
Small arguments break out, then that warning icon is dropped in and things cool off right quick.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I agree Kyle but if Dizzy keeps posting those stupid threads that becomes irrating fast, that is the only problem. Charley did warn him the last time he did it though.

[Navaria Tarkin]

Fett- No one here wants the fun to stop... but the thing is, posters forget when you need to be serious and realize that you can't walk over the staff

[ReaperFett]

Well, I suppose I agree with it, BUT it has to go through the affected person first. They might know more about the situation than anyone else

[CMJ]

The BO folks are obviously just more well behaved.

*cracks whip*

;)

[imported_Eve]

MORE INPUT PEOPLE!

An Update:

Issue One:
Thanks, I will compile everything. Generally, when someone makes a boo-boo, they should be given time to cure their violation with a set amount of time. If the violation isn't cured, then they get fried.

Are we in agreement?

Issue Two:
So, we want to maintain professionality, correct?

Should there be a code of conduct?

Issue Three:
Do you think people should submit complaints, inquiries, comments, etc. about staff actions, decisions, etc. by PM or e-mail to an administrator?

This way, threads don't get aired out for all to see. The administrator, if need be, can present the PM to the staff for discussion, but most cases will be clear cut and will not need it.

I think something like this would help prevent things like last week. One person deals with the member one-on-one and people are less likely to get jumped by the entire staff being in agreement (and seemingly being "shut-down".)?

So how do you feel about Issue Three? Yeah or Nay?(sp)

Issue Four:
Financial Contributors
A- Disclaimer: Financial contributors exist here under the same rules as everyone else, and are thus subject to the same responsibilities. Contributions are strictly voluntary and are the tender in exchange for forum space. Contributions must amount to the rate at which space goes (a contribution less than the rate of used bandwidth does not entitle you to forum space).

I think a disclaimer is needed in the way, esp. since you're talking about money. Care to add anything to that?

B - When someone announces their departure, and have ownership financially over a forum, what happens?

(1) How long should we wait before a forum is deleted, if another financial contributor is not found? 30 days? Should this be included in the above disclaimer? A reservation of right to cancel forum under what circumstances, etc.

(2) There is always a financial contributor. In the case that said person mods a subforum and is not a financial contributor, then the financial contributor has the right to make decisions about said forum, correct?

(3) When it is announced that funding is due for a forum, what is the net days allowed for payment? 30?

That's all for now.

THANKS

[Navaria Tarkin]

Issue one - Yep agree, If no one is going to listen then actions must be done

Issue Two:
So, we want to maintain professionality, correct?

>Should there be a code of conduct?<


Is that really necessary? Or is this more for the posters to see? Cuz, my view is we should be professional this whole time when serious issues come up and then be laxed if we are posting around and such. Are we talking about being completely stringent when I am logged on as Navaria/dale then when I am running around as on Aliya?

Issue three

I think a one on one approach would be a good idea but there would have to be a distinction between what goes on in the group mods forum.... that should be just for problems with their respective boards... and complaints about the board in general should go into an email or PM. That would have to be clear

Issue Four:
Financial Contributors
>A- Disclaimer: Financial contributors exist here under the same rules as everyone else, and are thus subject to the same responsibilities. Contributions are strictly voluntary and are the tender in exchange for forum space. Contributions must amount to the rate at which space goes (a contribution less than the rate of used bandwidth does not entitle you to forum space).<

>I think a disclaimer is needed in the way, esp. since you're talking about money. Care to add anything to that?<

Considering that some thought they were above the law, wouldn't hurt

>B - When someone announces their departure, and have ownership financially over a forum, what happens?

(1) How long should we wait before a forum is deleted, if another financial contributor is not found? 30 days? Should this be included in the above disclaimer? A reservation of right to cancel forum under what circumstances, etc.

(2) There is always a financial contributor. In the case that said person mods a subforum and is not a financial contributor, then the financial contributor has the right to make decisions about said forum, correct?

(3) When it is announced that funding is due for a forum, what is the net days allowed for payment? 30?<

30 days should be a good idea. That is plenty of time. If there are forums not being used for over a month, should PM the owner.. if a week or two goes by, the forum goes byebye IMO

Whoever is paying for the forum is more or less in charge and is the main moderator for the forum. Anyone else is a mod by their right so yeah... I agree with 2

as for payment... what is the payment schedule? Should be molded around that

[Jedi Master Carr]

Issue One
agree

Issue Two
I think we should proffessional when dealing with problems, its okay to be silly when you are in normal threads

Issue Three
I am all four this

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Issue one:
Yes I agree

Issue two:
I agree with Carr

Issue three:
I agree with Navaria

Issue Four:
People who contribute money are not above the law. Add disclaimer.

[JMK]

I agree with you all, especially with LD on #4.

[ReaperFett]

Issue 1
I agree. We're not penalising mistakes, we're penalising people who don't change their mistakes.

Issue 2
No COC needed. We should be professional when we need to actually be, not whenever we post.

Issue 3
Yes, but I think it should be Admins OR Mods that are in here. Two reasons. First, they may feel more comfortable telling some people. Second, it can be posting in here sooner, allowing more opinions to be gathered. The Mod who is PMed can always respond with "I'd PM an admin were I you"

Issue 4

A- Disclaimer: Financial contributors exist here under the same rules as everyone else, and are thus subject to the same responsibilities. Contributions are strictly voluntary and are the tender in exchange for forum space. Contributions must amount to the rate at which space goes (a contribution less than the rate of used bandwidth does not entitle you to forum space).

I think a disclaimer is needed in the way, esp. since you're talking about money. Care to add anything to that?
Do people think theyre above the law by paying? If you all think so, then I agree.


B - When someone announces their departure, and have ownership financially over a forum, what happens?

(1) How long should we wait before a forum is deleted, if another financial contributor is not found? 30 days? Should this be included in the above disclaimer? A reservation of right to cancel forum under what circumstances, etc.

(2) There is always a financial contributor. In the case that said person mods a subforum and is not a financial contributor, then the financial contributor has the right to make decisions about said forum, correct?

(3) When it is announced that funding is due for a forum, what is the net days allowed for payment? 30?
1, it depends. For example, if two people run a group, one is banned and one is trekking the Amazon, isnt it unfair to shut them down when the person who was trekking will pay? I think we should be flexible and take into consideration how many are in the group. For example, if noone pays for the GJO in 30 days, then that is their fault, they have enough established members. But do the Imps have enough?

2, it should be up to the contributer. They may ask that a subforum is nothing to do with them, like for example if someone was going tosend them money for the forum. In a case like that, there is only one contributer, but someone else IS paying for the space. But if no agreement like that is agreed then yes, Contributer is the god, so to speak.

3 should be like 1. YTou could have three "board owners", one gets banned, one is in the Amazon and one has just lost their job and may have to move out due to having no money at all. Is it fair to go to the third guy "Tough shit, 30 days or your board is gone"? 30 days is a good standard time, but we should be flexible with any circumstances which are out of people's control.

How about, for #3, that if noone pays after 30 days, we CLOSE the forums, make them all read only? That means that nothing is actually lost, but they are penalised. If it becomes clear noone will pay, then deletion is done. I don't know, it just seems a bit fairer than a possible situation of "We asked a guy who may be homeless in a week to pay for the board, where he has been put in the shit by a group leader being banned and another on holiday. He couldnt pay for the space, so we deleted all their hard work".

[Taylor Millard]

Let me try and get some sleep and I'll give my input.

[imported_Eve]

Fett, on your points of financial contributions:

If I don't pay my bills because something happens to me out of my control, they don't care. I get sent to collections anyway. Money is due when it is due, and 30 days is more than enough time I think.

Besides, in the event that someone doesn't pay, the financial burden falls to Ogre, and that isn't right. He should have a right to have a due date.

As far as financial disclaimer... I think we need it no doubt. The matter is wording. If you don't put a disclaimer in, somewhere down the road the board owner could be liable for damages. And we don't want to go there. Always when dealing with money, you need that kind of stuff.

[ReaperFett]

Yes, but your bills are for essentials, not a RPing place to have fun. ALso, the people you pay bills for cant ban the bill player, then drop it on someone else.

[Navaria Tarkin]

yes it is fun.. but like eve said, how fair is it to ogre to cough up money that isn't his to pay.

There needs to be set a limit or peeps might hem and haw thinking they can pay whenever.

[ReaperFett]

Not if we make sure it is only for extraordinary circumstances. Like my example. You banned the main payer, the other person is on a KNOWN leave of absense and the other possible payer is about to be kicked out his home. Are we really so heartless as to say tough shit to him?


And my idea for "freezing" the forums also means they are punished remember. Everyone seemed to miss commenting on that part, my inventive idea of the post :)


And let us not forget, you doing that to punish a group affects everyone who posts there.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

How about, for #3, that if noone pays after 30 days, we CLOSE the forums, make them all read only? That means that nothing is actually lost, but they are penalised. If it becomes clear noone will pay, then deletion is done. Yeah, Fett, I liked this idea.

[TheHolo.Net]

I do not like this "read only" idea mainly because that is allowing those who have not paid to have free bandwidth. While I am not saying I would delete said forums without question or a specified period of waiting. I would prefer to have the forum unaccessible by the general public if delinquent on their payments so as not to utilize bandwidth that has not been paid for.

[ReaperFett]

That would work fine too.

[Navaria Tarkin]

okay. I'm good with that.

[Navaria Tarkin]

also, in light of my thread in here, there should be something about copyrighting in the FAQ ... i skimmed pretty fast to see if there was a mentioned but I am sick :cry I didn't see anything :(

[imported_Eve]

Alrighty. Make Copyrighting Issue Five.

I'll find some general statement about it elsewhere and refine it for here.

[ReaperFett]

Issue 5 I am fine with, but the statement must be written in a way that covers any important areas.

[TheHolo.Net]

A policy of how new characters are ranked when starting here should also be added, seeing we are now having an issue with someone trying to start a brand new character as a Sith Lord.

Documentation that is dated and sufficient should typically suffice if it can be provided, if not, they start as an apprentice, and so forth.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I agree that that should be added to the faq, or to something.

[imported_Eve]

Okay. I'm working on this. Just keep bringing in the input.

On a personal note: I keep seeing the doctor due to some mystery illness I have. Gah, I'm so medicated. I've been treated for bronchitis, pneumonia, and now chronic asthma. Hell if I know! I also have a seminar in Minneapolis coming up (which will take me offline for a week). I'm trying to hire a new leasing agent and two maintenance techs. It's all just making me not here so much.

I'm not fishing, just letting you all know I didn't forget this thread. I'm very much watching it.

So then....

I mean to start drafting all this soon.

Format: Issue by category, then by alphabetical order.

Ogre: Is the FAQ editable like a thread, or is there some template editing that needs done when this is all done and approved?

[JMK]

I've been seeing a ton of docs too Eve, don't feel too bad! ;)

[Charley]

Oh nos, you got the SARS :(

[JMK]

Good thing this is an online forum then!

And to boot my boss is in Toronto now. That place is really reeling from the whole SARS scare...

[Charley]

I dunno...I'd kinda like for the SARS scare to catch on...just so I can finally go to work dressed like Sub Zero :D

[imported_Eve]

I think, really, I bragged too much about being healthy. This is my payback. Actually I'm the crack kid second hand smoke poster child.

And they make designer gas masks now ya know. To go with your new sunglasses.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Eve
Ogre: Is the FAQ editable like a thread, or is there some template editing that needs done when this is all done and approved? That is a little bit of an issue that I have been thinking over and may have come up with a solution for.

The reason its an issue is, currently we have more than a single FAQ and the important ones are harder to find that the least important.

First we have the vB FAQ located here Important Notice (misc.php?s=&action=faq>FAQ</a>.)

[TheHolo.Net]

Another issue to add:

Bandwidth theft: Meaning hotlinking images from other websites without putting them up on your own webspace. Either just link to them, attach them or put them up on your own webspace before using them here.

[imported_Eve]

Okay Oges. When I get this written up, I will send it to you in txt format and you can plug it in... or something.

I started messing with templates at my board and somehow shut the thing down. Later I figured out it was a bug. Ya think tech support will help? Nah.

Anyway...

[TheHolo.Net]

Sounds great! :)

If you haven't hacked your forum's source code (the PHP files), vB tech support is awesome.

[imported_Eve]

All I did was edit the style. I didn't touch templates. I didn't even see where I could have edited them, unless it was through ftp upload to a file folder somewhere. It went all black. Been weeks to get a response from tech support.

Later, I will gather all FAQ links to check with you that I have them all. I wanted to edit the language of some current ones too.

[imported_Eve]

http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30136

Good stuff for the FAQ.

[Charley]

:thumbup indeed

[Navaria Tarkin]

very very good :: ruffles LD's hair ::

[Lilaena De'Ville]

:o

Thanks! I was going to write a short, smoldering paragraph to tack on the end of the Shrine thread, as it could have obviously taken up 10 posts instead of 151, but instead I wrote that.

:)

[Taylor Millard]

I was curious...might it be good in the FAQ to spell it out for some posters about the difference between the RP Forum and the ST forum?

Just incase people are idiots and don't read the descriptions we have on the forums themselves?

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Then those people are idiots. :) Do we really have a problem with people putting their threads in the wrong forums?

[Dalethria Mal Pannis]

not really ... most who want an open RP tag it with something incase they need certain things. I only had to move one thread in recent memory to ST forum