Tatiana

[sonja]

She PMed me in continuation of the thread "Shawn". Her PM:

Yes Sonja, I did say I was done but since you seemed confused in your post, I thought I would take the opportunity to clarify myself to you.

And before you go around calling someone sassy and nasty, you might want to take a look in the mirror. You'll find one starring right back at you.

And you proved my point. Just because the majority shares a different opinion from the minority, doesn't make it less important. If everyone jumped off a cliff, would you?

My response:

Read carefully. The discussion is confined to the other thread and over, or locked. I am warning you once: You will not PM me with your continuation or extension of drama, name-calling, or insulting again, or I will consider it harassment.

If you PM me again, and it doesn't have to do with an inquiry or request that an admin can take care of, a complaint for harassment will be filed with the staff. If you continue to harass me or any other member of this board, you will be banned.

I do not need a response. I know you will get this. So, I expect to not hear from you again, unless you need my administration duties, as you are a member of this community.

And then she PMed me again:

Hey, don't threaten me or I will consider that itself a harassment. I wrote what I sent to you in pm way before that thread was closed because I no longer wanted to post in that other thread. Like I said, I was through with it.

And last I checked, pming people was allowed. I didn't flame you or harrass you in any way.

I have every right to state my opinion. I am a paying member of SWfans and a mod to The Shrine. If I feel the need to bring an issue up in the mod forum, I have every right. That is why I have access there in the first place.

I warned her to not PM me again, as in I did not wish to continue the endless arguing with her, which she saw fit to continue in PM. Now as I told her I'm bringing it as a complaint to you guys.

I don't know when she will stop. What can I do (action wise)?

[Navaria Tarkin]

she doesn't get the point that after swfans closed the thread that the issue was dropped? -__- great .............

let me see if I tell her that if that will quiet things

[Shawn]

:mad <-- That's all I have to say.

[Navaria Tarkin]

well, I was neutral in my PM to her eventhough I'm not happy about the situation. I am hoping that coming from me it might do something since I wasn't in the argument

:: shrugs ::

I just want it to end quietly without it coming to crazy stuff

[TheHolo.Net]

I also got a PM from her last night, which I am choosing to completely ignore, since she already said several times that the discussion was over.

As for action, I'll think about it and see if this continues.

[Shawn]

Her argument is that the staff has no right to say what can and can't be posted in a thread. That argument is dung. That is the extent of any response which needs to be given, IMO.

[Navaria Tarkin]

I doubt that responding in that way will calm things :p

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Shawn
He argument is that the staff has no right to say what can and can't be posted in a thread. That argument is dung. That is the extent of any response which needs to be given, IMO. I gave the needed response in the closing post in the thread, I need not clarify myself any further, is my take on it.

[ReaperFett]

So I can post swear words, offensive things and pictures of porn, and no Mods or Admins should be allowed to say that isnt on? Pffft.

[Shawn]

Hence why I haven't said anything since my last post in that thread, Dale.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
So I can post swear words, offensive things and pictures of porn, and no Mods or Admins should be allowed to say that isnt on? Pffft. That does seem to be an extreme spin on what she and Soth are arguing, but a spin that fits none-the-less.

[Navaria Tarkin]

good lord... the ignorance is killing me. I have no frelling idea how to respond to this


Actually, I just pmed Figrin about this. I did not contiue the closed thread with her. I pmed her way before the thread was closed. And I did it through pm because I no longer cared to continue that thread. It was getting out of hand as I'm sure you know. I felt that she had been rude to me and I wanted to address that to her directly.

I did not harass her in my response as she claims. The only thing that would be considered borderline was when I told her to look in the mirror before calling someone else sassy and nasty.

As I stated to her, she has no right to go around threatening people just because she is an admin. I consider that harrassment.
If you care to read what was said, I've included here. She might have already sent it to you, but here it is anyways so that you can see for yourself what was said. I just sent this to Fig also so that he would be aware of what was happening.

That was the exchange of pm's. I think she was way out of line to come off on me like that. I have a right to come to the mods and admins to discuss things. That's what the forum is there for. The private message system is here for our use of communication. No harm was done and I think she needs to be reminded of that.

From what I heard, she just recently became an admin. Perhaps you should also remind her that her position as admin does not give her the right to threaten someone just because she doesn't personally like them.

I only edited out the rehashing of the PM's between sonja and tat since they are already here.

first she comes off as bitch with that if you care crap :mad the issue was discussed at length and closed. what part of that doesn't she get .... le sigh .... >_<

[TheHolo.Net]

Everyone lay off for a while and let her stew in the shit she stirred.

EDIT: And Figrin PM'd me about it last night himself, thanking me for closing the thread and harping on Soth and Tatiana and their behavior. I'd call that an objective opinion not favoring them at all.

Also, so its known here: I completely support Sonja's responses to the continuation of the argument via PM, be they what Tatiana calls threats or not.

[Shawn]

If they think I'm on some kind of power trip for enforcing rules agreed upon by the rest of the staff, then so be it. They can haul their asses out of here come renewal time and leave us the frell alone.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Shawn
If they think I'm on some kind of power trip for enforcing rules agreed upon by the rest of the staff, then so be it. They can haul their asses out of here come renewal time and leave us the frell alone. We know that you aren't and thats what matters. :)

And I think anyone else with more than a single functioning brain cell knows it too.

[sonja]

Thank you Ogre. I appreciate it.

Doesn't look like she is settling down at all.

I would like something to be done. Even if it's a final warning that should she continue to PM someone in the future, after being told it wasn't welcomed, she would be banned permanently.

Anyone else would do it, they'd get banned. I'm not fired up to ban anyone, but she needs to quit her shit.

Anyone else getting TSE vibes?

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by sonja
Thank you Ogre. I appreciate it.

Doesn't look like she is settling down at all.

I would like something to be done. Even if it's a final warning that should she continue to PM someone in the future, after being told it wasn't welcomed, she would be banned permanently.

Anyone else would do it, they'd get banned. I'm not fired up to ban anyone, but she needs to quit her shit.

Anyone else getting TSE vibes? As I said earlier, lets just stop trying to get the last word for the moment and see what happens next. Let her feel she has the last word for the moment.

I am trying to come up with a way to finish the issue off completely and will take further action, as you request, but need some time to let the anger issues I have cool down some before doing so.

As for TSE vibes....yeah.....saddly.

[Navaria Tarkin]

well, something needs to be done of course sonja. It isn't right what she is doing but it's best we all agree on the last straw and then do it.

Good with the final warning .. I was nice and she obviously doesn't care for the niceness in my PM and didn't drop it.

I don't want a ban either if at all possible.

As for the TSE vibe, well ... the shrine always gangs up together like this when one person feels 'violated' :rolleyes

[Shawn]

Banning is too nice. It martyrs her. It would turn this into a crusade. She needs to be informed that she is unequivocally full of shit.

You'll pardon my penchant for using colorful language with I'm irritated.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Shawn
Banning is too nice. It martyrs her. It would turn this into a crusade. She needs to be informed that she is unequivocally full of shit. The funny thing about it is Figrin told her that in much prettier language several times, yet thickheadedness prevailed. >_<

[Taylor Millard]

God in Heaven I coulda sworn I calmed her down yesterday afternoon...

I guess there's one in every family...ugh

[TheHolo.Net]

Okay, I have come up with the beginnings of an idea that I thought I would run by everyone. This idea can be used in the future in circumstances where the PM system is being abused if needed.

I have created a new usergroup, (labeled "PM Restricted" in the admin CP) which problematic posters can be placed into. This user group does not have the ability to use the PM system. Now I do realize that most people around here have more than one name and can just log into another name to start up the same type of behavior that may have resulted in their losing their PM privileges in the first place, but if such does happen than that name can be placed in the group as well.

Many that do use multiple names do so for anonymity reasons and losing PM privileges to one name may be enough of a deterrent to rethink their behavior.

At this point I haven't come up with exactly how to implement it in this case, but this is the beginning of an idea, which may or may not be useful in this case, and possibly in future cases.

[ReaperFett]

Two questions:

1 - Would anyone PMing them get a message saying this?

2 - Would they lose stored PMs?

[TheHolo.Net]

1) People who attempt to PM said person would get a message saying such person could not recieve them.

2) I will need to test it to find out that answer for certain.

[ReaperFett]

Okay. I think it is a great idea if they dont lose stored PMs.

[TheHolo.Net]

My answers are both now tested and completely verified.

1) An error message is recieved when attempting to PM someone in the "PM Restricted" usergroup, stating they have either chosen not to recieve them or have had them disabled.

2) Stored PMs are not lost, when a person is placed in the group and already has messages in their PM folders. Once returned to the registered group, access to those stored PMs is restored and they still exist.

[sonja]

Yeah, it's a good idea and another way to penalize people. I wonder though, especially with someone as adamant as Tatiana, wouldn't they, if they felt strongly enough about it, just start posting in open forums, or sending the crap messages to our e-mail instead (which SWForums has no jurisdiction over).

I'm not sure if it will prevent the problem in all cases. I think its good for spammers.

I'm not playing victim here, but if someone calls me on the phone, and I tell them once to cease calling me; they do it again, and I can bring charges. I know this place is different, but she clearly disregarded my warning, and disrepected the staff as a whole. The staff runs this board. At my office, my staff dispresepects me, they get fired for insubordination.

I think a temporary ban will suit this case. Ban her for a week or two. That way, she'll understand that whether she agrees with us or not, if she acts with disrespect, and violates the rules (which we have banned people for sending unwanted PMs before) she, like everyone else, will be banned.

It's a strong message, and if she doesn't like it, she can take her bullshit somewhere else.

I'm asking for this. Her posts in the "Shawn" thread were nasty. She cut down the entire staff, she accussed the staff of misconduct. At no time was her opinion surpressed. We simply tried to explain things to her, and she didn't get it. She finally left one last post, which was the nastiest thing. She is lucky I didn't come back with more, and I would have, had I not been wearing the admin hat.

I'm asking for stronger action than this.

[Navaria Tarkin]

But we banned for spam PM's not in a case as this. I know your pissed, and rightfully so but I really leary about banning since this was her first offense.

[imported_Eve]

Fine. I don't think it will work. She will just post about how she is repressed in some open forum.

[Navaria Tarkin]

If that happens, or if she doesn't get the message with a talkin' then ban her. Course, Charley did tell me she did this crap before but I wasn't part of the incident so I didn't remember ... so now I am unsure what to do :|

edit - let me clarify... Tatiana in her posts to the staff .. not PM harrassment

[Sanis Prent]

She's pretty close to me. Let me have a chat with her, and I'll see what I can do.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Eve
Fine. I don't think it will work. She will just post about how she is repressed in some open forum. But a temp banning won't do much else either.
Originally posted by Eve
The staff runs this board. At my office, my staff dispresepects me, they get fired for insubordination.This analogy doesn't really fit. We don't pay our members to post here and thus having them disrespect the staff can, will, and does happen, without their being banned in every instance.

I do understand how you feel, believe me, I have been in the same place more times than I have digits to count, but we are here to try and endorse a semi open community environment. One where there are rules and consequences yes, but not one so strict as a place of employment.

[imported_Eve]

Dani, Charley? When? This incident or something before?

Ogre: No one surpressed the open environment here. I told her to not PRIVATE message me again, and she did. We're just gonna talk to her?

If that's all we're going to do, I have some thinking to do.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Eve
If that's all we're going to do, I have some thinking to do. That has not been decided yet. Because one person said it doesn't mean that is all that will happen.

[Navaria Tarkin]

Ask Charley, I don't know the details but it was another disagreement with the staff I suppose. Not a PMing issue.

And Swfans is right... Just because I wasn't inclined to ban doesnt mean that my word is law ... not even close :lol

[TheHolo.Net]

Okay, I am considering sending her the following PM just to see what her reaction is to me and if it differs to the attitude she gave Eve:

PM to you from Sonja
Read carefully. The discussion is confined to the other thread and over, or locked. I am warning you once: You will not PM me with your continuation or extension of drama, name-calling, or insulting again, or I will consider it harassment.

If you PM me again, and it doesn't have to do with an inquiry or request that an admin can take care of, a complaint for harassment will be filed with the staff. If you continue to harass me or any other member of this board, you will be banned.

I do not need a response. I know you will get this. So, I expect to not hear from you again, unless you need my administration duties, as you are a member of this community.Can you please explain why it is that you were asked three times by a staff member to cease the PM discussion yet you did not do so and instead took the warnings as threats and then made a preposterous counter accusation of harassment?

I have seen the exchange of PMs and can only conclude one thing. You are due back the funds you contributed for the Shrine and an immediate banning unless you can offer me up a damn good explanation that is much better than the "I'm better than you, and I will call you names." attitude that is dripping off of everything I have seen you say in the closed thread and the PM exchange with Sonja.If her attitude suddenly changes then the problem is mainly a personality conflict between herself and Eve, if it does not then I make arrangments to pay her back the Shrine contribution she made and we see the last of her around here, and possibly the last of the Shrine as a whole, since they tend to stick together pretty tightly and I think Tatiana made their entire contribution anyhow.

[TheHolo.Net]

One bit of forewarning. If this does come down to some kind of ban temporary or otherwise, usernames and email addresses are all we will be able to ban since Tatiana has an AOL IP address. If we attempted an IP ban we would likely include a hundred or so other users with it, including Eve.

[Sanis Prent]

Also, you'd end up frying LV

[imported_Eve]

Okay. I suspect you will get attitude. Though the purpose is good. The head cheese asking for an explanation.

This isn't a personality conflict. I don't know her at all. I know she is LV's sister, and that's about all. Her post irritated me no more than the rest of you. We all told her to lay off. She singled out Shawn, then me, and we did our best with it.

Her attitude was similar with Fig and Dani. I don't know how she was with Charley.

If she is sweet as pie to you, that doesn't settle things with her PM to me. Go ahead with it, and we can go from there.

[Shawn]

If her attitude suddenly changes then the problem is mainly a personality conflict between herself and Eve,And me, apparently.

As much as I agree with what you're proposing to send her, I highly doubt that your message will receive any kind of positive response. Expect something along the lines of "Help, Help! I'm being repressed!"

[Navaria Tarkin]

Sucks but what're you going to do. It comes down to people not having the ability to read apparantly and owning up that they messed up.

Not yours or Eve's fault Shawn.

[TheHolo.Net]

I have made some revisions and gone ahead with sending the PM. Figrin mentioned to me via a PM the other night that Tatiana and Soth have been pulling these kinds of stunts for some time with no reprisals and I have now decided that the time for no reprisals is over. I suspect in all likelyhood this will result in the loss of Tatiana and some of her close friends from our community, but I honestly feel that is a better outcome than having people at this community who have no respect for rules or for the agreement they made when they joined these forums, running rampant doing whatever they please.

Here is my revised PM:

PM to you from Sonja
Read carefully. The discussion is confined to the other thread and over, or locked. I am warning you once: You will not PM me with your continuation or extension of drama, name-calling, or insulting again, or I will consider it harassment.

If you PM me again, and it doesn't have to do with an inquiry or request that an admin can take care of, a complaint for harassment will be filed with the staff. If you continue to harass me or any other member of this board, you will be banned.

I do not need a response. I know you will get this. So, I expect to not hear from you again, unless you need my administration duties, as you are a member of this community.Can you please explain why it is that you were asked three times by a staff member to cease the PM discussion yet you did not do so and instead took the warnings as threats and then made a preposterous counter accusation of harassment?

I have seen the exchange of PMs and can only conclude one thing. You are due back 50% of the funds you contributed for the Shrine and an immediate banning unless you can offer me up a damn good explanation that is much better than the "I'm better than you, and I will call you names because I have every right." attitude that is dripping off of everything I have seen you say in the closed thread and the PM exchange with Sonja.

Yes you are free to your opinion, but anyone and I mean anyone that does what you have via a PM exchange with an administrator will, and has been in the past, banned faster than they can say the word. Your having contributed for the Shrine's inclusion on these forums does not give you the right to flame the staff that is in place on SWFans itself for something you agreed to before you even joined the forums. If it were at the Shrine forums it would be a different story, but it was not. The PM system is under SWFans jurisdiction, as is any forum not inside the Shrine or other group set of forums.

Let me remind you once again, before you even made your first post on these forums you agreed to a "contract" (the user registration agreement) that gives the SWFans staff full right to edit, alter, move, or delete anything posted on SWFans forums. If you feel such is not the staff's right then you should not have clicked the agree button in the first place, and definitely had no right to question any removal of posts being that you agreed and have an account here, which you were not required to pay for.

I suspect this PM will do nothing more than anger you and your friends who feel you did nothing wrong and frankly, I don't care whatsoever. You are either a part of our community to have fun and work within the rules established by the staff and abide by the agreement you made when you joined, or you are a problem and are better suited to take your horse and ride it into the sunset.

You can make the decision or I can make it for you, it is your call at this point. There will be no argument or debate. I will not respond to any flames by you or any friends defending you. I am completely within my right as the proprietor of the domain name and forums and there is nothing that can be said otherwise. This will be resolved, either by your immediate apology to the staff for you blatantly disrespect and unjustified flames, or your immediate removal from the privilege to utilize these forums.

This issue has gone much further than it should ever have and I regret that it has come to this, but the staff of these forums will no longer tolerate having members cry “Oh woe is me, I had a post removed.” and then resort to flaming the staff with such childish insults as calling our community a bunch of “ass kissers” because they have forgotten the user agreement they made before they even made a single post. It is our responsibility to hold all our community members to a standard, including ourselves. If you don’t like it then you are free to not use our service.

[sonja]

Great post/PM. I was going to say earlier that if it came to it, she shouldn't be refunded the entire amount, since they did use this board for some time.

Thank you for your backing with this. I think the PM will anger her, but it needs to be said.

And hell I'll send ya $25 next time I get paid to take care of it, if she goes.

Let me know what happens.

[TheHolo.Net]

No response as of yet, though I do have "read recipt" confirmation it has been read.

[TheHolo.Net]

As expected.
Mistress Tatiana wrote on Today 03:00:26 PM:

Can you please explain why it is that you were asked three times by a staff member to cease the PM discussion yet you did not do so and instead took the warnings as threats and then made a preposterous counter accusation of harassment?

First off, I was not asked three times. I was first pmed by Sonja who felt that she could threaten me. I told her that the pm I sent her was not harrassment, and I felt that the fact that she was threatening me was itself harrassment. I then messaged Fig about it, and then I got a pm from Navaria and I also informed her about what was happening.


"I have seen the exchange of PMs and can only conclude one thing. You are due back 50% of the funds you contributed for the Shrine and an immediate banning unless you can offer me up a damn good explanation that is much better than the "I'm better than you, and I will call you names because I have every right." attitude that is dripping off of everything I have seen you say in the closed thread and the PM exchange with Sonja."

I never had a "better than thou art" attitude at all. And you can go ahead and ban me if you want. I can tell you this though, if you do, you would not only end up banning me, but Lady Vader and all the characters she plays as well. Just remember, it affects more than just one person.



I suspect this PM will do nothing more than anger you and your friends who feel you did nothing wrong and frankly, I don't care whatsoever.

It upsets me, but frankly, I'm not surprised. I knew you were gonna pull the banning stuff out of your hat. It's what you do when you see someone question your actions.



This will be resolved, either by your immediate apology to the staff for you blatantly disrespect and unjustified flames, or your immediate removal from the privilege to utilize these forums.

I already extended my apologies to you and some of the others. You want me to grovel and beg now? No. I don't do that.


This issue has gone much further than it should ever have and I regret that it has come to this, but the staff of these forums will no longer tolerate having members cry “Oh woe is me, I had a post removed.”

Like I said before, it wasn't the deleting of the post that upset me.


and then resort to flaming the staff with such childish insults as calling our community a bunch of “<font face="verdana,arial,helvetica" size="1" color=#997583>-Censored-</font> kissers” because they have forgotten the user agreement they made before they even made a single post.

I flamed no one, and I did not call the whole community <font face="verdana,arial,helvetica" size="1" color=#997583>-Censored-</font> kissers. There's a particular few I had in mind when I made that comment. I did not name who they were so as not to flame them.


It is our responsibility to hold all our community members to a standard, including ourselves.

If so, then Sonja would have refrained from going in there and calling me names.


Like I said before, you can do whatever you want. If you think someone needs to be banned just because they wanted to state their opinion, then so be it. Though, I'm sure if you talked to those mods and admins who know me personally, they would tell you that the type of person I am. Remember, just because you sit behind a screen doesn't mean you know who I am.
I will not put up with this attitude, her accounts and email addresses will now be banned, and no it will not effect anyone else.

[TheHolo.Net]

My preliminary announcement for the OOC forum:
Notice of banning:

It is my duty to inform the community that a member of the forums has been banned from SWFans.Net Forums. It is never something wanted or relished, but the staff has been left with no choice, due to blatant disregard for the rules and the user agreement signed at time of registration. Mistress Tatiana and her aliases have lost their access to these forums for continued failure to adhere, respect, or recognize the previously stated policies.

[sonja]

Yep. Well, did you respond to her?

I will send ya $25 next week. I don't want you to be out anything.

[TheHolo.Net]

No, I didn't respond, because I clearly stated that there would be no argument, there would be no debate. She obviously ignored that and attempted to debate what was said.

I have made an announcement for the group mods with a more detailed explanation than I will announce to the rest of the forums.

As of right now the status of her contribution to the Shrine forums has not been discussed, but I suspect it will, either via email or via her friends or sister in communication with me in the coming hours or days.

[sonja]

Well let me know. If you don't need it because they won't be taking the space, that's cool, but I don't want you to be in arrears. I know you don't need it.

[TheHolo.Net]

The following announcement has been posted in the OOC Forum and will be there for 7 days:
Notice

It is my duty to inform the community that a member of the forums has been banned from SWFans.Net Forums. It is never something wanted or relished, but the staff has been left with no choice, due to blatant disregard for the rules entailed in the user agreement signed at time of registration. Mistress Tatiana and her aliases have lost their access to these forums for continued failure to adhere to, respect, or recognize the previously stated set policy.



It is very important that every user of these forums understands the rights the staff has to which the user agrees when they click the "Agree" button after reading the User Agreement. Rules are there for good reasons and rules agreed to at the time of joining are very important and non-debatable, as they relate to possible legal issues that may and have happened to other moderated forums elsewhere on the Internet.



We really don't have tough or hard rules to follow, or for that matter all that many rules. Most of our rules relate to common sense, which is something we expect every member of our community to possess, besides respect for your fellow Internet users. Please keep in mind that what rules we do impose in the User Agreement and in the FAQ are there for a good reason and do require adherence for our continued opportunity to offer these forums for your use.



SWFans.Net/Ogre

[Shawn]

It's like the posters are allowed to keep Aces up their sleeves for whenever they've dug themselves in a hole. But instead of Aces, it's "The staff is on a power trip" or "The staff surpresses anyone who disagrees". And they're not even real cards, just poorly copied fakes they try to pass off on the dealer.

If she would have just owned up to having made a mistake, this would have been a non-issue. She didn't even have to apologize.

[ReaperFett]

Can I just ask, how do you know which accounts are hers? e-mails, right?

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Shawn
It's like the posters are allowed to keep Aces up their sleeves for whenever they've dug themselves in a hole. But instead of Aces, it's "The staff is on a power trip" or "The staff surpresses anyone who disagrees". And they're not even real cards, just poorly copied fakes they try to pass off on the dealer.

If she would have just owned up to having made a mistake, this would have been a non-issue. She didn't even have to apologize. That was my thinking exactly.
Originally posted by ReaperFett
Can I just ask, how do you know which accounts are hers? e-mails, right? Yes and by what she did after her primary account was banned (she logged out of it and into others) she must have been at a place of work because her IP at the time was distinctive and not AOL.

[TheHolo.Net]

BTW: I recieved a PM from Soth regarding this and he really didn't argue the issue, but did ask that I physically call him on the phone to discuss it, which I will not do. My opinions and expectations were stated quite clearly for Tatiana to read, she disregarded it and decided to keep arguing. The issue is dealt with appropriately. Anyone with half a clue should know that sass talking admins is a quick and one way express ride on the ban bus, and anyone who thinks different is delusional. This applies at any set of forums on the Internet.

[imported_Eve]

What does he want to discuss? What else is there to say? All discussions were in the open, and we know where he stands on the issue since his posts were just as idiotic.

Lordy.

And guys, get this - ALL OF THIS was because we tried to do something good for this community.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Eve
What does he want to discuss? What else is there to say? All discussions were in the open, and we know where he stands on the issue since his posts were just as idiotic.

Lordy. He said several times that this should be resolved in a way that is beneficial for all parties, which does not make a single lick of sense, because it was up to Tatiana how this played out, not me and not him. She failed to think and act rationally, end of story.
Originally posted by Eve
And guys, get this - ALL OF THIS was because we tried to do something good for this community.I am now at the point that when I see staff members harrassed for issues that blatantly disregard the User Agreement or the FAQ, strict actions will be dealt out. I am sick of being walked on and smiling about it. My tolerance level has reached its limit. We are kind enough to make this community available to them at great effort and cost of our own, but it continually goes unconsidered or unappreciated. If its so unappreciated then its time for that person to move on.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

o_O

wow. I missed it all.

So I take it this is not a temporary ban?

What a mess.

It is unfortunate, imo, that action has been taken so soon. Not that it is not what the end result might have been anyway, but I as a staff member had no input on the situation. So, bad timing on my part perhaps. I realize the importance of doing things right away, however.

My 2 cents:

Tatiana has often been the voice of chaos in discussions over things like "godmoding" and perceived insults on other members of the Shrine. Soth really isn't as bad as she is, but he's really protective of her even if he knows she's wrong.

Tatiana also seemed to originally to have had a problem with the fact that someone who did not start a thread changed the rules of a thread midway, and then posts were deleted. She said multiple times that the deletion of threads is not what her problem was.

Why couldn't we have gotten Marcus to hit her with a frying pan and tell her that he OKed the change of rules in the thread?

I will also say that although Sonja did not stoop quite to Tatiana's level, I will not excuse her comments that did incite more excitement on Tatiana's part. NO one is free of blame on the two sides of what I do see as mostly a personality conflict.

[imported_Eve]

I don't need your excusement. Don't even try and blame me for this.

I'm not talking about insults here. And she is lucky I didn't say more to her. This is the PM thing. When a discussion is closed, and this one was, because things were heated, carrying on in PM just isn't cool.

When I made it clear I wouldn't continue that way, she did. That's my issue.

[ReaperFett]

Eve, there is no need to snap at LD just for posting an opinion.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Sonja I understand the situation. I understand that she continued the situation. I also am aware of how the situation got started.

I did not intend to place blame on you for this. I aplogize if thats the way you took it. But when we're talking about people who are staff keeping a lid on things and not making things worse than they already are (as we are all guilty of from time to time) I think its only fair to point out that things might have been handled differently from the start, and maybe none of this would have happened.

[TheHolo.Net]

I not only had problems with the things Tatiana said in the closed thread in the Group Mods forum, I had problems with her follow up PM to me after its closure. How she PM'd Eve and also how she responded to Navaria. That is just too much lack of respect to bear. It isn't about a single personality conflict, its about a lack of respect for authority, and guess what, that will not be tolerated when gone to these types of extremes.

If she had owned up to her lack of respect and mistakes then this issue could have been resolved through other means, but she refused to do that and instead attempted to continue aruing, thinking she was safe because she contributed to the Shrine's costs for being hosted here.

No one is exempt from having to respect authority and that is what this is about and why it went the way it did

[Shawn]

I think its only fair to point out that things might have been handled differently from the start, and maybe none of this would have happened.You mean in regards to the thread? If I had to go back and do it again, I wouldn't have handled things any differently. A rule was put in place and she chose to disregard it. She was treated exactly the same as everyone else - that is, her post(s) were deleted. I was rather upset at the blatant disregard for a simple request, and was further upset by her questioning my actions when I did exactly what I said I was going to do, but I believe I kept my first reply to her civil and explanatory. Anything beyond that happened because she decided to press the issue.

I am not clear on the "keeping a lid on things" statement.

I don't personally agree with her banning, ONLY because the reasons for the action being taken may easily be misconstrued. I don't want people to think that we just ban anyone who disagrees with us. But some form of action needed to be taken and I will back the decision.

Frankly, flaming mods and admins when they have specifically warned you that there will be consequences is just asking for trouble. She knew that she would be banned if she kept up her actions, yet she did it anyway. As I see it, she wanted to be banned.

Had she not responded to Eve's warning, it wouldn't have happened. Had she responded to Ogre's warning politely ("Gee, I'm sorry I kept PMing Eve. I was angry and not thinking straight"), she wouldn't have been banned.

I understand that it's a bit sudden for you - I came home to see this, as well. But I can't say it really came as a surprise.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I totally understand, Ogre. I was merely trying to point out that trying to cool down a situation with:


All day I listen to people say, "Oh, I didn't read that. I can't expect to be responsible for it." Blah. If you keep that attitude you won't get very far in life.

Fine, you missed the post. That doesn't mean you have to turn this into a control issue. I suppose you want damages for your pain and suffering? Geesus people.

The whole point of yesterday's actions, no matter done by who, was for the benefit of the forum. Guess it wouldn't be a normal day around here if someone wasn't pissing on that and creating drama. Pick your battles, but this isn't one.

What's done it done.

Its all a moot point and I'm probably not saying what I need to say or want to say. I agree with the actions taken against Tatiana due to her continued lack of respect to admins and mods of these boards. I am not trying to excuse her in any fashion. I just think that tossing gasoline on a burning fire in most cases will usually lead to more flames, in which case should we really be surprised that this was not resolved sooner?

Anyway. End of my thoughts on the matter. :) Carry on then.

edit: in response to Shawn: I thought that everything was going well until the quoted post. Eve, I'm sorry I'm really not trying to pick on you, but if you'd been Charley and said the same thing, I'd be saying the same things. Figrin, Shawn, etc etc, and you also until the above post, were handling things professionally. Obviously if we're using logic, and Tatiana's stupidity ray is disolving the information before it is registered by her brain, we can't be blamed in any way.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Shawn
Frankly, flaming mods and admins when they have specifically warned you that there will be consequences is just asking for trouble. She knew that she would be banned if she kept up her actions, yet she did it anyway. As I see it, she wanted to be banned.

Had she not responded to Eve's warning, it wouldn't have happened. Had she responded to Ogre's warning politely ("Gee, I'm sorry I kept PMing Eve. I was angry and not thinking straight"), she wouldn't have been banned. Hammer.Nail.Head

(Translation: Hit the nail on the head with a hammer)

[imported_Eve]

You think THAT post ingnited the already lengthy and passionate thread? Yeah it tipped Tatiana on ME, sure. She tipped us before that.

That thread pissed everyone off including myself. Thus, thread closure. I didn't say anything that wasn't said to me. All in all, Shawn was accused of being on a power trip before I even got there, I'm lots of things, and we're all butt kissers. Her first flame was to Shawn, the final flame was to us all. And I'm the instigator?

Fine, Tatiana and myself now had conflict, and she had to put in another word before she was done with me. So, she PMed me. I told her it wasn't welcomed, which I have every right to do. Why carry on with her? It was no good and a waste of time. I replied in a perfectly acceptable capacity which included no further discussion pertaining to the "Shawn" thread. But, unfortunately, she wouldn't have it. She continued to PM. So, as a member of the community receiving unwanted PMs (after warning), I informed the staff. And the rest is in this thread.

You are blaming me. Your arguments present that my involvement is the only element that made things become this way. All I can say to that, is if she didn't start the thread filled with flames in the FIRST place, and on and on. Well, this entire thread is the result of trying to work with her. I, at no point asked for a permanent ban. Two of her buddies told her in the nicest way to stop, that continually PMing unwelcomed PMs is wrong, and she wouldn't have it.

Two more mods disregarded. That's three staff relaying rules that were disregarded. Then an explanation is asked for from SWFans main admin. Nada nada.

No one argued with her about who said what and what anyone called anyone because she herself was guilty of it. Yeah, I threw down some words, but I think the reason it's a non-issue here is because her posts were filled with it from the very beginning.

Does that excuse me? No. Does that make me okay? No. Honestly, we have different language in these closed forums, and that's what I was doing. Do I have a temper? Hell yes. But I don't think I set that thread on a track it wasn't already heading by Tatiana and Soth. Thread was closed, and wisely.

People simply told her to desist PMing unwanted PMs and she disagreed. What can you do when someone will not follow the rules?

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Does that excuse me? No. Does that make me okay? No.

My only point, really. I was never trying to excuse Tatiana for her words before your comments or even after them.

[Navaria Tarkin]

:: head spins ::

Well, soon as I came on guess who IMed me ... I won't get into the whole thing but I swear she was leading me somewhere to say something.. especially with that 'what is flaming' question :rolleyes I said it was in the FAQ for all to see ...

I basically said you got banned for flaming the staff and for ignoring repeated attempts from sonja to stop PMing her and from others.

Her mind only thinks she got banned because of sonja :| I hope I beat some sense into her ... tho I doubt it...

And good lord >_< Can Ogre call me, is he on AIM, etc and etc

:: pulls hair ::

:verymad

ahem ... :)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I have a feeling that as soon as I go home and get on AIM I'm going to be bombarded by Soth and Tatiana...maybe not though.

[imported_Eve]

Welp I'm the scapegoat. Ga ahead.

Dani, I don't think there is anything you can say to change her mind there. What are her intentions? What does she want? She want to be unbanned? Or what? Leading you where?

[Sanis Prent]

It feels that punishment in the regards to Tatiana's infractions went from 0 to 100 in no time. I don't think a permaban is prudent. Yes, she needs to be punished, but is her action of such a clear & present danger that it warrants a permanent ban so quickly? I realize that bannings are final, but could it be possible for the ban to be of a temporary nature. You can get a big case of mental haze when neck-deep in an argument. If we gave Jon so many second chances, why are we banning Tatiana immediately? Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for punishment, but with no action put on her previously, and not even a warning put on her for prior actions, if we recall her past transgressions and ignore ex post facto, then any of us can obliviously walk smack into a permaban situation.

I'm asking to consider this possibility. The window of a temporary ban has not expired. Since I was not able to contribute to the decision-making on this situation, this is the best I can do. Hooray for the dilemma of friendship and objectivity :(

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Since I was not able to contribute to the decision-making on this situation, this is the best I can do. Sounds familiar. I'm not saying this was done on purpose but the admins just took action without really consulting the mods.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
Sounds familiar. I'm not saying this was done on purpose but the admins just took action without really consulting the mods. And I am unjustified in doing so?

You were on yesterday evening and had the opportunity to see the PM I planned to send her, yet you said nothing here. Don't blame your lack of response to this thread on the admins not consulting the mods.

Opportunity was given and not taken. My intentions and possible actions were spelled out quite clearly to her in the PM I sent. She then literally asked to be banned. I granted her request.

Posters will not be allowed to flame staff members unless they have one hell of a valid reason for doing so. Posters that do, will be shown the way out as it is clear they do not like how things are run.

I pay a lot of cash and put in a lot of time to keep this place in operation and my tolerance for whining and crying foul is gone. The days of my letting people push me around are over. Call me a tyrant or whatever you like, but I will not let people make a big drama out of something that they were completely in the wrong about to begin with. My money and the money of those who contribute here is worth much more than having to put up with that.

If Tatiana's attitude makes a complete 180 degree turn and she admits she was in the wrong, and makes amends with the staff members she insulted, including myself, a lift of the ban she is under may be considered, but as it stands right now she is history.

[TheHolo.Net]

Okay, speaking with Navaria earlier and hearing that Tatiana wished to contact me, I went ahead and instigated such contact via an email I sent her in reply to her PM that caused her immediate banning as I had warned it could.

Here is the email I sent her. (its not in quotes so as to have more width space and maybe be a little less confusing to read). I will post her reply to me in the next post, contained within quotes, and I will reply to her some time tomorrow, after I have sleptt on this and provided you, the rest of the staff some time to see, respond, or ignore what it contains. Anyhow here is my email reply to her PM which I posted in this thread earlier. It was color coded in the email format so the quotes would be less confusing:

________Quote_____________________________________ _____________
First off, I was not asked three times. I was first pmed by Sonja who felt that she could threaten me. I told her that the pm I sent her was not harrassment, and I felt that the fact that she was threatening me was itself harrassment. I then messaged Fig about it, and then I got a pm from Navaria and I also informed her about what was happening.
__________________________________________________ _____________

You were asked three times in the very PM I quoted to you in my PM to you, yet you responded defiantly with another Pm to her. That is an obvious lack of respect for authority and for your fellow woman/man. Your response to Navaria was inflammatory and far from the way you are describing it here. She was trying to help understand what was going on and you tried to drag her into it. You were not threatened, you were warned not to Pm her again. You persisted, you are guilty of harassing another member of our forums. You are guilty of not respecting the authority of an administrator, besides myself, and Shawn, so make that "you are guilty of not respecting the authority of forum administrators".


________Quote_____________________________________ _____________
I never had a "better than thou art" attitude at all. And you can go ahead and ban me if you want. I can tell you this though, if you do, you would not only end up banning me, but Lady Vader and all the characters she plays as well. Just remember, it affects more than just one person.
__________________________________________________ _____________

With this very response you are showing an "I am above being banned and thus above the rules" attitude, which can easily be equated with an attitude of "I am better than you." As you have now seen, you were wrong, you can be banned and not have it affect others.


________Quote_____________________________________ _____________
It upsets me, but frankly, I'm not surprised. I knew you were gonna pull the banning stuff out of your hat. It's what you do when you see someone question your actions.
__________________________________________________ _____________

And here, you are flaming me. Childish and the main reason I chose not to respond to this dribble initially and carried out your banning immediately, just like I said I would do in my warning to you. You feel you are above the authority on our forums and you proved it by not heeding the warnings Sonja gave you and then by not heeding the warnings I gave you in the PM that this response came from.

I don't pull things out of my hat. I do what is best for our forums. If someone chooses not to recognize the authority that the forums have in place then they are a problem for the forums and are better suited to go about their way in other endeavors.

________Quote_____________________________________ _____________
I already extended my apologies to you and some of the others. You want me to grovel and beg now? No. I don't do that.
__________________________________________________ _____________

You never once admitted that you were wrong in saying that the ruling you initially were arguing was done so in accordance with the staff's rights and abilities. Instead you said we were on a power trip and were out to quash people with differing opinions, which was and will always be completely wrong. We moved that topic as an aid to our community. Your post within it was removed as an aid to the community. It was stated quite clearly in the thread that such would happen if the procedures set forth were not followed.

Stating that the staff of the SWFans.Net Forums was on a power trip is the biggest "cop out" and weakest argument I have ever seen. There is zero truth in it, whether others share your opinion or not. We enforce the rules set forth, rules which are in plain text and at the fingertips of all of the community members.


________Quote_____________________________________ _____________
Like I said before, it wasn't the deleting of the post that upset me.
__________________________________________________ _____________

Obviously it was the fact that we didn't smile and take your insults and flames of the staff and community and say "oh we agree with you". So you decided to keep flaming and then bring in a lone voice backing you up to do the same. Even people who were not a part of the general SWFans staff called both of you on it, yet you wouldn't stop, even after the topic was closed.


________Quote_____________________________________ _____________
I flamed no one, and I did not call the whole community -Censored- kissers. There's a particular few I had in mind when I made that comment. I did not name who they were so as not to flame them.
__________________________________________________ _____________

And because you mentioned no specific names its not a flame? Wrong. You flamed The entire staff in that thread, first accusing Shawn of something he hadn't even done, which you later learned yourself, and yes apologized for, but still continued on your pointless tirade, saying that no one offers different opinions and the like. Then you Flamed Sonja after you PM'd her in response to the thread and she replied telling you to drop it, warning you that there could be consequences if you did not drop it, but you ignored the warning and said it was a threat. Please tell me of any moderated forums on the Internet where people are allowed to flame and harass moderators or admins and expect anything different than having their posting privileges removed, because I sure as hell know that no such moderated forums exist where a person is free to be a smart ass to, and flame, staff members.


________Quote_____________________________________ _____________
If so, then Sonja would have refrained from going in there and calling me names.
__________________________________________________ _____________

So you can but she can't in response? Sorry, that isn't going to fly with me. You are not a victim of mistreatment, You are a victim of your own stubbornness and shortsightedness. I mean come on, you flame the staff of a set of forums and expect to just walk away? Please tell me you don't think yourself above the rules and above everyday common sense.


________Quote_____________________________________ _____________
Like I said before, you can do whatever you want. If you think someone needs to be banned just because they wanted to state their opinion, then so be it. Though, I'm sure if you talked to those mods and admins who know me personally, they would tell you that the type of person I am. Remember, just because you sit behind a screen doesn't mean you know who I am.
__________________________________________________ _____________

No one was banned just because they "wanted to state their opinion". You were banned because you were disrespectful to the entire staff on more than a single occasion. You were rude and unruly to Sonja, you were rude and unruly to Navaria when she was just trying to help, and you were rude and unruly to me when I asked you about it. You ignored Sonja's warnings and you ignored my requests to not continue the argument. You continued to argue as if you had done nothing wrong whatsoever. I said there would be no arguments and I meant it.

You needed to make amends with me, with Sonja and with Navaria before I would even consider anything different than what happened. From what I have heard, you have made amends with Navaria for your rudeness to her when she PM'd you, but I do know that you have done no such thing with me, and no such thing with Sonja, nor have you admitted that you were wrong in questioning the staff's actions in the case mentioned in your thread in the Group Mods forum.

You can make accusations of "its what you do" until you are blue in the face, but you are only contradicting what you yourself said to me in the last sentence I quoted above. You do not know me, and you have no ground to stand on when it comes to defying what is said by me, or my staff when it is in regards to the issues of the last few days as it pertains to the SWFans.Net Forums. You have been in the wrong since you began and you continue to be in the wrong by trying to carry this on with further argument.

If you are able to convince my staff and myself that you realize your mistakes and how it was that you were wrong, there is a possibility that the disciplinary action enforced can be changed, but until then any pleas or arguments will fall on deaf ears.

You literally asked to be banned on more than a single occasion throughout this ordeal, that request has been granted.

If you reply to this with further argument and backtalk about my actions or words, your response will not be replied to and you will be placed on my email block list, because I have better things to do with my time than try to convince someone of the so blatantly obvious truth.


SWFans.Net/Ogre/Webmaster

[TheHolo.Net]

Her response to the email, which does follow the guidlines I stated in my email (OMG its amazing :eek). It is not argumentative and it is not inflamitory, though her reading comprehension is still a little off.:
Chris, you were the first person I apologized to when the thread was closed. I dropped everything once you did that because I knew things had gone bad. I meant what I said when I didn't mean for it to end up the way it did. I'm sorry.

I talked to Navaria this evening because I was surprised when my sister told me this afternoon that you had said she was upset. I asked her if my message had offened her, because I wasn't thinking any ill of her. I knew that when she pmed me she was doing it as a medeator between Sonja and I. She had even stated that to me when I got her pm. So I explained to her what had happened between Sonja and I so that she would be aware. I had also informed Figrin so that he could also be aware. And I left it at that as Navaria had asked.

I'll also extend my apologies to Sonja. I didn't like the way she came at me personally, but I shouldn't have snapped at her just because she did the same to me.

As I read through your e-mail, you stated that you sent me several messages. I don't know what messages you're talking about, but I just thought I'd let you know. The only messages I received from you recently was the one about letting a person in the Shrine, and the one you sent to me today. So if there was anything else you sent me, I never recieved it.

When I talked to Navaria and to Charley this evening, I came to realize that there was some confusion as to what happened when. I just wanted to let you know that I sent Sonja the pm before the thread was closed. The only action I took upon seeing the thread closed, was to pm you apologizing.

Anyways, it seems like Soth no longer wants to rp now. I know that doesn't make you sad, but he's the only person I really posted with, so it doesn't really matter now. Sorry for the trouble.

TatianaI changed her real name at the end to her board name because I respect her right to privacy just as I value my own.

Let me also say that I did not tell LV that Navaria was upset with her. I told LV that Tatiana needed to make amends with Navaria for the attitude she gave her as it related to this situation. I said the same of Eve and that I would then speak to her on AIM, because LV asked me to AIM Tatiana right then and I refused with said reasons. I supplied no AIM names and no email addresses as it was not my place to do so.

[TheHolo.Net]

Let me also add before I go to bed that Soth did announce in the shrine forums that he would not be RPing any longer, but so far as it stands now, he did so in a very honorable way, paying no one any disrespect.

[Taylor Millard]

I've kept silent on this issue, mainly because I partially blame myself for the fact it's become an issue- and I havent' disagreed with what the staff has done. Also, I haven't been able to really catch up on everything until this evening...yes I was online yesterday, but not for long. I woke up at 3PM EST, did not check the mod forum, then I think I answered 3 PMs and left. Then I went to see Matrix Reloaded (again), checked boards once more (I think I posted once or twice at Meras), and went up to work. I didn't even see the banning until about 9PM...I think.

Do I disagree with the banning? No, I do not. However, I do agree with Charley's idea of a temporary banning. I would add an inability to have access to the Group Mods forum (as we've used for mods who've shot their mouth off before).

Now after reading Ogre's PM and Tatiana's response to it...my only problem with either is this in her reply


I never had a "better than thou art" attitude at all. And you can go ahead and ban me if you want. I can tell you this though, if you do, you would not only end up banning me, but Lady Vader and all the characters she plays as well. Just remember, it affects more than just one person.

That was out of line. An emotional reaction (and I know all about emotional reactions). I'm not getting TSE vibes, instead I'm getting Gue vibes from when we first banned him (Remember, "Ban me now, I dare you!"). In essence, Tatiana asked for it so she got it.

Now that being said, I still agree with Charley (and I suppose Soth) that a compromise can be reached. I think Soth wishing to get a hold of Ogre is a bit honorable, mainly to talk things out...as written sometimes doesnt' convay a tone of voice (Ogre...Shawn...Sonja, if you wish I can get in contact with them to negotiate. I do not mind giving out my phone number...plus, if need be...I can always use my calling card). If I use my calling card, I'm not spending my own money so don't worry about it. I'm spending my dad's and (for the most part) he can afford me using hte calling card to call California.

After reading what Tatiana had to say in her email to Ogre...I think she might be legitimately sorry. While I am willing to allow her to return to the boards, I think a temporary ban is in order, and I also think she should be watched for any more outburts.

[imported_Eve]

There is zero respect in some people. You must always respect the rules, regulations, and authority in any environment you're in, because without that respect, there is chaos.

Yeah, she is sorry. And I believe she is. But does she get it? She thinks this whole thing is about what she said to me. She's been fighting for her right to reply and respond. This is about her total disregard for forum rules and authority. She shouldn't be sorry to the individual Sonja, Shawn, Ogre, Nav, etc. She should be sorry she disrespected the rules and staff. If you think she is, then great.

From what some of you have indicated, she has stirred up things before. That this behavior she exibited in this was seen before. Everyone that has talked to me about this has stated that Tatiana is known to be irrational about many things. This also came from people who have actually met her.

There has been the analogy that she is closer to Gue than TSE people. So, is the only reason you're fighting for her is because she's your pal? If she was Gue, would this discussion be happening?

Do you think that a temporary banning will cease all that in her? Do you think, in what you know of Tatiana, that this would teach her the lesson she needs to be taught and such disrespect will never be seen from her again?

Would she even want to come back?

The purpose of the punishment is to be the finale. I think a temp banning is considerable, but only if the lesson has been learned. Do you think it has?

[Sanis Prent]

The endgame with Gue was the result of numerous warnings and prior punishments. Tatiana has had no such treatment. Her actions, while against the rules, are not of an immediate clear & present danger to the forums, so the immediate nature of a banning isn't required, and we can work to correct this problem. I think that she's gotten the picture. If you don't discipline a puppy, and then beat them when they're older for all the times they've pissed on the carpet, it'll be a bit of a shock to them. As long as she gets the gist of the fact that we won't tolerate such actions, she'll desist.

[Shawn]

I agree with Sanis here. She needed to be taught that this sort of behaviour simply isn't going to fly. Something a little more than a slap on the wrist was due but I wasn't so sure about expulsion.

Mind you, I'd still back the banning, as it certainly wasn't unwarranted. But I'd prefer to see her taught a lesson - IF she learns the lesson.

I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt that she was simply irrationally angry and not thinking straight. So long as she understands that she had better keep a reign on her temper in the future.

I, personally, was very offended by her attitude and her blatant disregard of rules. If you do decide to make this a temporary ban, which I am currently in support of, please tell her that, in the future, if she has a problem with such a rule or procedure, to politely ask why it was done.

Not to pretend the rule doesn't exist - there is no such thing as civil disobediance here. If she disagrees with the rules put forth, simply ask about them. Don't just ignore them.

And not to flame and sling mud at someone for enforcing the rules.

Both of these things are unacceptable.

You can word that however you wish, as you tend to have more skill at making things sound polite than I do. But those are my two points I'd like to get across.

[imported_Eve]

I completely agree with you Shawn.

[Navaria Tarkin]

I realized when I went to bed I totally forgot to ask why this wasn't a temporary ban.... now I see that is taken care of so I won't rehash things.

I'm in Shawn's camp and also agree with what he said as well.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I'm in favor of a temporary ban. Not a permanent one. Although she might not come back anyway.
'

In the future can we try to avoid situations like this by actually taking a little bit of time and talking it out? :cry

[TheHolo.Net]

Thank you for replying everyone.

I am in the process of writing a reply email to her with the inclusion of what appears to be the general consensus here. At this point I feel that if she so desires to return to the forums that this temp ban should last through the weekend.

I will attempt to make it very clear that rules must be followed and that being polite when expressing a differing opinion will work much better than being accusatory and combative in my reply, but I anted to try and get a feel for what others think the length of the temp ban should be.

I think the fact that she suddenly found herself without the ability to post or use of her established characters was one quick and big lesson that she was not above the rules. I really do believe that served its purpose as a strict and harsh disciplinary action. One I doubt she will forget.

She may still not want to return to the forums and as far as I am concerned thats not my concern. I think the lesson learned and the disciplinary action served its purpose, which to me 5 days of temp banning fulfills well.

[imported_Eve]

Sounds good to me.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
In the future can we try to avoid situations like this by actually taking a little bit of time and talking it out? :cry As I said yesterday, I am now at the point of not putting up with the drama shit any longer. If a poster flames a mod or an admin and they do not have one hell of a good and valid reason, they will get me so far up in their case they will be wishing they had never done it. There won't be a week's worth of discussion, there will be me taking immediate and unprejudiced action.

In response to some of what Taylor had to say:

There is only one single individual to blame for this and it is not any member of this staff. You were completely in the right to delete her post, you did nothing wrong whatsoever. The person to blame for the situation is, and will remain, Tatiana.

At first I was definitely getting TSE vibes, and I was prepared for an onslaught of other members of the Shrine jumping down my throat for the discipline dealt in this situation. I was pleased to see that even Soth did not flame me for it, he only tried to get it going in a more productive direction, one that in my mind he really had no say in as far as I am concerned, but it was respectful and I do appreciate that. The other members of the Shrine stayed clear and that gives me hope that this situation will not evolve into having the type of problems we had with the TSE members as they progressed in their unhappiness here.

All in all I do believe that this ordeal, though initially something that should never have progressed to the point that it was pushed to, has been a learning experience for Tatiana, for Soth, and even a good reminder for some other members of the community that our rules are there for good reason, and they cannot and will not be allowed to be ignored. :)

[Taylor Millard]

Oh if I were to go into negotiations (if it'd gone that far) the one constant would have been: The Staff will not and should not apologize for any action it took.

As far as I'm concerned we were completely in our right to do what we did. Tatiana over reacted and now she's paying the consequences.

The fact we may've been able to work it out as it we, goes to show we (as a group) can work together on something like this. I'm talking 'bout the staff here.

Just a history question...did either Gue or TSE ever apologize for crap they pulled? I mean really apologized none of this, "I'm been a bad boy I'm sorry. Pity me! Pity me!" crap.

[Navaria Tarkin]

Taylor... the quick answer is no.