Are we giving back the Statue of Liberty too?

[Jedieb]

WASHINGTON (AP) - House cafeterias will be serving fries with a side order of patriotism Tuesday with a decision by GOP lawmakers to replace the ``French'' cuisine with ``freedom fries.''

``This action today is a small but symbolic effort to show the strong displeasure of many on Capitol Hill with the actions of our so-called ally, France,'' said Rep. Bob Ney, R-Ohio, chairman of the House Administration Committee.


Ney, whose panel oversees House operations, ordered the House Administrative officer to change the menus in House office building cafeterias to read ``freedom fries'' and ``freedom toast.''

The House action follows moves by several restaurants around the country to remove ``French'' fries from their menus to protest French opposition to U.S. military action in Iraq.

Also leading the anti-French campaign was Rep. Walter Jones, R-N.C., who noted in a letter to colleagues that Cubbie's restaurant in Beaufort, N.C., in his district, was now serving ``freedom fries.''

``Watching France's self-serving politics of passive aggression in this effort has discouraged me more than I can say,'' Jones said.

Members of Congress have been sharply critical of France for threatening to veto a new U.N. resolution holding Iraq in violation of disarmament agreements and paving the way for a military strike against the Saddam Hussein government.

Another Republican, Jim Saxton of New Jersey, has introduced several bills to ban Pentagon participation in this year's Paris Air Show and to make sure that France does not participate in any reconstruction projects in Iraq.


I like to make cheap jokes at the expense of the French as much as anyone but this is friggin' ridiculous. It makes us look like petty fools. Do these lawmakers have nothing BETTER to do with their time?
:eek

[ReaperFett]

Yep, you do look petty.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I know Jedieb it so stupid, I mean there are a lot more important things they could be doing like passing legislation.

[Diego Van Derveld]

Its more fun than shaking hands and kissing babies. :)

Honestly, I like it :) I mean, the knife in the back is pretty damn deep. Not that I liked France at all (I was insulting France before it was cool) before all this, but the crap they've pulled is ridiculous. Its not like they're actually making it illegal to be French . Just stirring the pot, which is fine by me.

I went down to N.O. for Mardi Gras...and I only heard the phrase "French Quarter" once. It was blissfully shortened to "The Quarter". That made me laugh.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Now that is stupid those people are of French dissent. You see I don't like it for two reasons I am half french and I study French history so it really makes me mad. And how is the French getting all the blame, heck Germany and Russia have been more hostile and they are allies too.

[ReaperFett]

Notice how the rest of the world didnt remove the word America when it kept refusing to sign environment charters and plans the rest of the world wanted to sign, thus making the charter redundant? Suppose it must be maturity, eh?

[Jedieb]

See how smug this makes Reaper? Putzes.

[Diego Van Derveld]

France and Germany have a history of a "bitch/butch" relationship. In certain centuries, one of them walks all over the other, and then suddenly, they switch roles. France and Chirac's sandbox, the EU, are all signs of Gallic momentum. Post WW2 Germany is an emasculated creature...and the most aggressive thing it's done in the past years is push for Eastern European admissions into the EU, so as to ease the weight of power away from France a little. You can see exactly what France thinks about that plan. Germany's shown some signs (Schroeder's obstinance aside), that they can relax their hard-line pomp when France isn't breathing down their neck. They about-faced nicely over Turkey, once France was excluded from the vote.

As for Russia, I've always considered them dubious. They don't try to hide it like France, though.

[Jedieb]

If the Germans put up any more resistance to the war are we going to bring back "Liberty Cabbage?"

[Jedi Master Carr]

Germany and France have never gotten along, go back to when the Habsburgs contorlled Germany (it was the Holy Roman Empire back then) and the Burbons controlled France, they have hated each other ever since. You have the 30 years war, Napoleonic wars, Franco-Prussian War, WW 1, and WW 2. It was only recently that they have allied themselves, and I sure there is still some resentment.

[Diego Van Derveld]

Thats exactly what I just said. If you think Germany and France are "buddy buddy" in this EU thing, you're delusional. Its like two fat kids fighting over a twinkie while stuffed in a volkswagen. On the outside, looks fine, but inside, there's all kinds of pushing and shoving, and a future mess is an eventuality.

[Jedieb]

Of course France and Germany have rarely gotten along. I'm just trying to spot what potential foods Republican lawmakers are going to go after next. If the Italians were too vote against us would they rename the Pizza the Liberty Disc? :rolleyes

[Jedi Master Carr]

Ok I misunderstood what you said there, still I don't think that is the case here, I think they just both agreeing with each other here for their own reason.

[Diego Van Derveld]

Freedom Pie. Get it right :)

And its not just voting against the resolution. If it were that, we'd have to stick it to alot more nations. The reason France gets it (besides the fact that they're France) is that I've never seen a nation run by such profound, blatant hipocrites and thugs in my life. Their entire foreign policy, for years upon years, has been to play "opposite day" with the rest of the world. For instance, at a conference where the EU invited leaders of african nations, the entire EU refused to invite Zimbabwe's freakin insane dictator...because he's an unhinged madman. So Chirac personally invites him to come to the conference! Mad!

[Jedieb]

:rolleyes :rolleyes

WASHINGTON (AP) - Chinse restuaraunts will be serving fried rice with a side order of patriotism Tuesday with a decision by GOP lawmakers to replace Won Ton Soup with ``Patriot Broth.''

``This action today is a small but symbolic effort to show the strong displeasure of many on Capitol Hill with the actions of China,'' said Rep. Bob Ney, R-Ohio, chairman of the House Administration Committee.

"We have repeatedly asked the Chinese to intervene with N. Korea. We can't invade everybody! The other major powers have to do their share."

When asked why he wasn't sponsoring a bill to rename any Russian foods Ney replied; "The only Russian food I could think of was gulash and it doesn't seem to be very popular here. Also, Im not quite sure it's even Russian."

Also leading the anti-Chinese campaign was Rep. Walter Jones, R-N.C., who noted in a letter to colleagues that Szchehuan's restaurant in Beaufort, N.C., in his district, was now serving ``General Washington's Chicken.''

``Watching China's self-serving politics of passive aggression in this effort has discouraged me more than I can say,'' Jones said.

Members of Congress have been sharply critical of China for not taking up the administrations pleas to handle the current diplomatic situation with N. Korea.

Another Republican, Jim Saxton of New Jersey, has introduced several bills to ban Pentagon participation in this year's 4th of July celebrations. "I'm pretty sure fireworks may have come from China. So I'll be damned if we're going to be using them anymore!"


:rolleyes :rolleyes

[Jedieb]

In all seriousness, renaming French Fries doesn't "teach" anybody a lesson. It makes us look like idiots. This is something people will laugh about. Just watch Letterman and Leno tonight.

[Diego Van Derveld]

:eek is that legit?

If so, that's taking it a bit too far, IMO. Unlike France, China doesn't totally suck. I think refusing Chinese political sponsor money is enough ;)

[ReaperFett]

But hey, good to show there's people over there who want to increase xenophobia. Why not have a few burning flags too?

[Diego Van Derveld]

I think the peace protestors burned them all.

[Dutchy]

`This action today is a small but symbolic effort to show the strong displeasure of many on Capitol Hill with the actions of our so-called ally, France,'' said Rep. Bob Ney, R-Ohio, chairman of the House Administration Committee."

Read: Boo-hoo, those bad French dare to disagree with us, well, pooh on them! ^_^;

I guess the French are renaming their McDonald's restaurants to McChIraq's as we speak. :p

[ReaperFett]

And Don Mclean will sing "Bye bye Miss Warmongering Pie"? ;)

[Ryla Relvinian]

I'd like to have a freedom kiss right about now...

Good lord this is a load of bantha poodoo. This is what we pay them to do?

[Sanis Prent]

Don't like it? Write your congressman and tell them. I'm pretty sure that's how they've come to present such matters anyway. The sentiment isn't exclusive to capitol hill, so don't dare think that.

[Daiquiri Van-Derveld]

My thoughts exactly, Ryla! These guys are overpaid anyway but to waste my tax dollars on renaming 'french fries'?? Puh-leeze!

:rolleyes

[Sanis Prent]

Overpaid? Have you seen how much DC politicians make? Now, factor in cost of living in DC. It isn't THAT much. You'd expect the people that run our country would be making more, honestly.

It isn't like they passed a bill outlawing french fries. The guy with say-so in the Congress cafeterias changed it. Whoopity-doo.

[Darth Viscera]

Well, personally I'm glad that our elected officials are doing it. Somebody has to stand up to the bully french. You gotta admit, they've been real jerks of late, and they had it coming. They'll get no pittance from me.

We'll see how euphoric they are about having been anti-american when next year their economy goes into a recession (they're only at 1% growth now) because they've lost 50% of their exports to the USA. Suck that, France. Next time, they won't be so eager to start driving the anti-USA bandwagon.

[JMK]

the bully french
That may be the greatest oxymoron I've ever read. Then again, I bet it was supposed to be taken that way. ;)

[ReaperFett]

Oh, not the bully French! Arent they so mean! I mean, as they say "Do as we say, or it's war!" so me.......waitaminute, that's not France! :)

[Darth Viscera]

BRUSSELS, Belgium -- French President Jacques Chirac has attacked eastern European countries hoping to join the EU, saying they missed a great opportunity to "shut up" when they signed letters backing the U.S. position on Iraq.

France has been a leading voice against Washington's press for war in Iraq to disarm President Saddam Hussein and is insisting weapons inspectors in the country be given more time.

But 13 countries either set to join the EU or in membership talks have signed letters supporting the United States.

Chirac said: "These countries have been not very well behaved and rather reckless of the danger of aligning themselves too rapidly with the American position."

"It is not really responsible behavior. It is not well brought-up behavior. They missed a good opportunity to keep quiet."

"I felt they acted frivolously because entry into the European Union implies a minimum of understanding for the others," Chirac said.

Chirac called the letters "infantile" and "dangerous," adding: "They missed a great opportunity to shut up."

Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic, all of whom have dates for EU membership, joined EU members Britain, Spain, Italy, Denmark and Portugal in signing a letter last month supporting Washington's stance on Iraq.

Ten other eastern European nations -- eight with entry dates and Romania and Bulgaria who are still in membership discussions -- signed a similar letter a few days later.

"Romania and Bulgaria were particularly irresponsible. If they wanted to diminish their chances of joining Europe they could not have found a better way," Chirac said.

When asked why he wasn't similarly critical of the EU nations that signed the letter, Chirac said: "When you are in the family ... you have more rights than when you are asking to join and knocking on the door."

CNN European Political Editor Robin Oakley described Chirac's outburst as "pretty grumpy and imperious."

"For him to lecture these applicant countries or these accepted members on their way in was really behavior like the worst of what the French complain about in the United States," Oakley said.

"It was bullying really. ... It was very, very tough stuff. I think some of the other EU leaders will feel it was out of order.

"But perhaps it shows just how much Jacques Chirac was stunned by U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's differentiation between what he calls 'old Europe' and 'new Europe.'"

Rumsfeld angered France and Germany when he referred to them as 'old Europe' -- in contrast to the easterners seeking to join the EU and NATO -- in response to Paris and Berlin's stance against any possible war in Iraq.

Chirac's words have angered some of those aspirant nations with Czech Deputy Prime Minister Alexandr Vondr saying it appeared Chirac was trying to bully them.

And Polish Deputy Foreign Minister Adam Rotfeld told public radio: "France has a right to its opinion and Poland has the right to decide what is good for it. France should respect that."

European Commission President Romano Prodi said he was saddened rather than angry with the candidates because their pro-Americanism was a signal they had failed to understand that the EU is more than a mere economic union.

"I would be lying it I said I was happy," he told reporters. "I have been very, very sad, but I am also patient by nature, so I hope they will understand that sharing the future means sharing the future."

The EU decided last December to admit 10 new members to the 15-nation bloc.

The parliaments of the current EU members still have to ratify the decision that will see Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Cyprus and Malta join in May 2004.

On Tuesday, leaders of the EU aspirants traveled to Brussels for a briefing on Iraq and endorsed Monday night's joint declaration by EU leaders. (Full story)

The candidates were upset over not being invited to Brussels for Monday's emergency summit on Iraq.

Britain and Spain had sought to have the candidates invited to Monday's summit, but France and Germany opposed the idea.

Greek Prime Minister Costas Simitis, whose country holds the rotating EU presidency, denied they had been excluded from the summit because of their backing for Washington, insisting rules require the accession treaties be signed first.

JMK, I give you the french bully.

[JMK]

Pfft, just wave your fist and he'll wave the white flag.

[Admiral Lebron]

Didn't a French leader want the flag to be all white? One of the ministers of Napoleon III.... I think it was Gambetta?

[Sanis Prent]

Can't remember who exactly, but yes.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don't know about that possibly.
About boycotting French products it won't happen, rich people can't live without their caviar and Champaign and we can't put a trade boycott on them because of Gafta (or what ever it is called) or else they would be trade sanctions on us.

[Sanis Prent]

Caviar = from caspian sea != France

Champagne = also made in other countries.

Not familiar with Gafta. Elaborate. I'm generally up to date on business laws, etc.

Even if there were sanction imposed on us, who do you think gets it worse :) Honestly.

Then again, this could just mean that France has to get their money the old fashioned way, by arming terrorists and crushing insurrections in Africa, for their dictatorial friends.

[Jedi Master Carr]

It is that world trade organization, if we put world stopped trading with France most of Europe could stop trading with us, I don't think we would do that anyway because it would look bad.

[Admiral Lebron]

We don't have to stop trading... just stop buying.

[Marcus Telcontar]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/12/1047431076592.html

Rather have the french, than this idiot. Someone slap Rumsfield before he offends everyone

[Sanis Prent]

Are you sure you don't mean the Maastricht Treaty?

[Sanis Prent]

Rumsfeld is a putz of a public speaker. The gist of what he said can be figured out by anybody with a half-functioning neuron, but people like to find verbal loopholes to jump into and cause a crap-fest. He's capable in his other job duties, he just should never make another press release ever again.

[Admiral Lebron]

Isn't that why we have a press secratary?

[Sanis Prent]

supposedly (shrug)

[Admiral Lebron]

And who said public schools teach us nothing?

[Shawn]

My response to the situation can be summed up as: :rolleyes

[ReaperFett]

Champagne = also made in other countries.
Nope. It has to be from a specific region in France, else it is Sparkling White Wine. It is incorrectly called Champagne.

[Eluna Thals]

Its a drink named from a region. Same as a gazillion beers that call themselves "Pilsners". To qualify as a true Pilsner, it must be brewed in Pilsen, Czech Republic. But its not even an issue, seeing as the recipes for "Pilsners" are so close they might as well be identical.

[ReaperFett]

No. To be Champagne, it has to be from Champagne. No way to Weasel out of it :)

[Sanis Prent]

Do you just arbitrarily decide to not read things I post, just for the hell of repeating yourself?

[Jedieb]

Congressman have spent thousands of man hours to further address the situation. These countries will be taught a lesson they will never forget.

All of the following will be renamed:

Champagne=Star Spangled Bubbly
Turkeys=Benjamin Franklins (Unless Turkey changes its mind and allows us to use their bases to open a second front.)
Pot Roast= Patriot Stew

When asked about the change of Pot Roast Republican, Jim Saxton replied; "A lot of these protestors are druggies. We'll have no more foods with the word Pot!" When reminded that the country of Turkey had nothing to do with the foul Saxton angrily retorted;"Oh, that's what they'd like you to think!"

Now, where's my pen and paper so I can send off that letter to my Congressman. Apparently, that's what I'm SUPPOSED to do if I don't like something. :rolleyes

[ReaperFett]

And from here on, Congressmen must be known as "Moronmen" ;)

[Jedieb]

Okay, that did make me laugh. Finally. ;)

[Jedi Master Carr]

LOL Reaper.

[Diego Van Derveld]

Eb, its more constructive than popping off impotent objections in a Star Wars forum. Constituents generally talk to their representatives. Its one of those foundations of a representative democracy. Why you mock it, is beyond me.

[ReaperFett]

You complain when Sheen tells people to write to them ;)

[Jedi Master Carr]

There are people who complain about everything including why there is trash on the street I don't seen these guys give into every complaint or every outrage. There are more important things they should be doing, like worried about medicare, the environment, public funding for schools and libraries, etc. This stuff is just a waste of my money.

[Diego Van Derveld]

You'd have a point, if there was anything near parity in the amount of time they spend on this issue, and the amount of time they actually do spend on the issues that you insist they focus on. Because their efforts are not 100% on these issues, they're suddenly "wasting your money"?

:rolleyes good grief.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
And from here on, Congressmen must be known as "Moronmen" ;)

A-hyuck hyuck hyuck

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think Congress should concentrate on stuff for the greater good, and I see know greater good out of this and in mind this is a waste of money, I am sure there are some nut who thinks something should be changed and writes to their congressmen most of those requests are ignored. To me this is just certain congressmen trying to get attention to themselves and that is why I don't like politicians all they cater to is the media.

[Diego Van Derveld]

If the game's played like that, then FFS, I want all those congressional man hours spent on saving the stupid spotted owl back! Kill the stupid bird! What a waste of money! ;)

The fact of the matter is, you can't put the greater good on the dockett all the time. There are all kinds of things to lend your attention to, great and small. To argue that ONLY the greater good should be given consideration, and that any outlying concerns within a constituency should be run roughshod over...thats a dangerous way to think. The ACLU have eaten mens' souls for far less.

I'm not pissed that some people in congress decide to try and save a bird. Why should you be upset about this?

[Darth23]

omigod

the cluelessness is so think here you could cut it with a knife.

[ReaperFett]

That at me? :)

[Diego Van Derveld]

the cluelessness is so think here

...and you're just the one to set us up the bomb? :)

[Jedieb]

To me this is just certain congressmen trying to get attention to themselves and that is why I don't like politicians all they cater to is the media.

Wait a minute, are you insinuating that a Congressman standing in front of a sign reading "Freedom Fries" in a Pentagon cafeteria in front of a bank of photographers is trying to draw attention to themselves? Boy, are you jaded. :rolleyes

Now, I'm going to be constructive and send an e-mail to one of these reps and tell them they look like idiots. Ah, I'll just send them a link to this thread. Cuz' that's what grown ups do!

[JediBoricua]

And what if Mexico does not back the UN resolution?

"Yo quiero Freedom Bell"

:lol

You can defend congressmen as much as you want (hey my uncle is one), but you cannot defend this "freedom" fries nonsense, it's as stupid as issues can get.

[Diego Van Derveld]

Sure I can. Its an expression of dissent. Saying I can't defend such a thing is like repressing the rights of peace marchers to assemble.

[Jedieb]

:lol boriqua. I forgot about Mexican foods.

Tacos=Freedom shells with Patriot Beef
Tortillas=Libertyllas
Frijolles=Yankee Doodle Beans
Arroz Con Pollo=Courageous Chicken w/ Richeous Rice

The following cities and states will be renamed:
Los Angelos=American Angles
Santa Monica=Hot American Mama
Sacremento=Sacred American
San Diego=Charger Town
And New Mexico will be renamed "Ha Ha, We Stole It From You Just Like Texas."

Congressmen insist that to avoid all of these drastic measures all Mexico has to do is back the United States. When it was pointed out that more than one Hispanic culture was represented by the changes a congressmen replied; "Mexican, Cuban, Puerto Rican, who cares? They should be speaking the language anyway!"

[Jedieb]

Back to the French:
The State of Luisiana will now be called
Purchased By The Man Who Owned Over 200 Slaves For 15 Million Dollars

[Diego Van Derveld]

hyuk hyuk, eb made a funny :rolleyes

[Jedieb]

Not nearly as funny as the Congressmen themselves. :rolleyes

[Jedi Master Carr]

LOL Jedieb. Now about this freedom fries nonsense it is nonsense these guys are doing it for publicity and nothing more who knows maybe they think it will help them get reelected. Its a joke I still don't like us saying that other countries should follow our lead it is their right to do what they want. We shouldn't be telling Germany and France to follow us or else that is just wrong.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
I still don't like us saying that other countries should follow our lead it is their right to do what they want. We shouldn't be telling Germany and France to follow us or else that is just wrong.

Don't try to hijack the thread please. :rolleyes

GIVE FRANCE BACK TO THE MORMONS!

Steak tartare should be renamed "Raw beef with ecoli" and certain french alcoholic beverages should be renamed "Magic Bovine Blood Juice".

[Sejah Haversh]

Nay, it can still be called steak tartar, it just has to be prepared the way the Tartars did it. Stick it under your saddle so it's right on the horse, and then ride it for half a day. Because, I don't know about you all, but that sounds dee-licous to me!

[Darth Viscera]

We might have some trouble locating a horse. How about we just stick the meat in the toilet for a few seconds?

[Sejah Haversh]

What? And lose the delicate flavor of horse sweat? Pah, some gourmet you are...

[JonathanLB]

I heard this the other day from a Republican friend of mine in Eugene at U of O (she is one of the leading members of the College Republicans there at that liberal school).

Q: How many troops does it take to defend France?







A: WHO KNOWS, it's never been done before!

[Jedi Master Carr]

Jon that is not funny it has been done before WW 1 tell her that too, the French troops defended Paris very well the German armies never came closer than 15 miles from Paris and the rest of the war was thought in the trenches. Also the French armies were very powerful until then. France had the best army from the 1400's until WW1 the only reason they weren't the dominant power was England's Navy was so superior to everybody elses. although France was dominant in the 17th century during Cardinal Richelieu's tenure as minister and under the rule of Louis XIV.

[JediBoricua]

I cannot believe we have been so stupid, we have forgotten French...err I mean Liberty Dressing!

[JonathanLB]

"Jon that is not funny"

Of COURSE it's funny! Don't be a PC bore dude, jesus christ. That joke is a classic.

The French suck. Put it on record -- I HATE FRENCH PEOPLE. They are a bunch of cowardly pieces of crap who cower behind their sickening politics and can't be bothered to do what is right. I hate France, I hate the French, they are the worst allies imaginable and not allies at all.

*spits on the French*

My criticism only does not apply to the VERY few French people who go against their society and government and know what is right. Also, my criticism doesn't apply to French filmmakers from the French New Wave because they all admitted American movies were better than French ones and set out to change that by making quality films. The French New Wave directors are awesome. As for the rest of the French people -- WORTHLESS.

[Jedi Master Carr]

You must hate me because I am 60% French. I also specialize in French history so I have to defend them, France was a dominant power throughout most of European history, sure they have declined since WW2 much like England has, but all great powers do that and the US will do the same thing one day that is just the way things work. Calling French cowards to me is wrong, I don't see them that way they thought and died in WW1 and lost the most soilders of the Western powers. In WW2 they just got their buts handed to them by the powerful Nazi army, but so didn't Poland, Czechoslavakia, the Netherlands, Belgium, Greece, Yugoslavia and England (at least for the first 5 years of the war, If Hitler could have crossed the English channel England would have fell too). So I guess you consider all of those people cowards too? It was only the Russians that held against them but that took a long time the Russians had a lot of losses and Hitler made too many mistakes, invading Russia at the wrong time and several military mistakes, if he had sent all of his forces towards Moscow he would have capture it.

[Jackson DeWitt]

Carr, considering that the French had military superiority, and in some cases, superior equipment to the Germans, its a glaring outlier from the other bunch. France folded in spectacular fashion. If the French had spitballs and rocks like the other European nations against Germany did, it would be a different matter. The French easily had parity with the German war machine. They just sucked the big one.

I don't hate French people. I do, however, hate the French government, and I generally loathe French culture, but thats because I'm not much of a fan of wine and champagne, don't really like French cinema, and I think that French food is a bit bland. They can't even make good beer, so there isn't really anything thats French that appeals to me that much.

[Figrin D'an]

Besides my complete disagreement with Jon's hyperbole statement about hating the French (for the love of god, I hope it was hyperbole...), the joke itself was amusing.

I don't consider the French people cowards. That's rather ridiculous, given the number of them that fought and died in the trenches of Alsace and Verdun, and later the number of them that ran the underground resistance while their nation was occupied by the Third Reich. It's more so the French goverment, and some of it's military leaders, that lead to the jokes and criticisms. I mean, when you surrender your capital city without firing a shot, you have to expect some harsh and cutting wit to be aimed at you.

[Admiral Lebron]

French People = Anti-Semetic

Me = Anti-French.

They suck and should all burn in a fire.

[Jedi Master Carr]

The French aren't that anti-Semtic probably no more than what you would find here. The most anti-semtic people in Europe are actually the Russians followed by the Austriasn, that country elected a neo-nazi to high ranking office shows you how anti-semetic Austria is. France is about average, anti-semtism exists in every country it just a fact, there are some people who don't like Jews, I am sure I have bumped into a few, heck I might even know some and don't even realize it.
As far as WW 2, the French might have had the equipment but they didn't have the manpower, in WW 1 they had lost 40% of their military and then with depression and the flu epidemitic they lost another 20-30% of their potetial armed forces also. Also there are two other factors one the French people were incredibly down after WW 1 they didn't want to fight its because of the fact they had lost faith in the system, they saw millions of their people die for nothing, nothing was gained in that war and people were sick of war after that, so they had no morale to fight. And second the French generals were old fashioned stuck in WW 1 mode they were still fight trench warfare and that is one of the things that cost them, the German army just marched over them with their blitzkrieg. Like they did in most of Europe, until they reached Stalingrad where the whole war changed.

[Jackson DeWitt]

Carr, you're amazingly uninformed on France's anti-semitic drive, apparently. As horrible as Jacques Chirac is, his opposition for the presidency was far worse. A right-wing nationalist fanatic that wanted to restrict the rights of Jews, and even went so far as to deny the Holocaust even happened. Combine this with enough oppressions, beatings, and synagogue fires (I'm told you can navigate at night in Marseilles by plane by steering to synagogue fires), then you notice a trend that is above and beyond a nation simply having an anti-semitic backdrop. That, and Chirac embraces the leader of Hezbollah, and numerous other terrorist groups. This is a damn insane country, whose policies are absolutely foolish.

And the French army had numeric parity with Germany in WW2, so I dispute your claim otherwise.

[Darth Viscera]

Not only numeric parity, the allies in france had about 10% more materiel, they just dispersed it in WW1 fashion. They could have made serious inroads into Germany in September 1939, because they outnumbered what forces were in western germany several times over. The French made a few idiotic blunders even with overwhelming military superiority (the ability to channel the german war machine through belgium should not be understated, they had a great chance to blunt the offensive there), so they lost.

They're French. They should have been tought how to retreat without allowing it to degenerate into a rout.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am sorry every European History Proffessor I ever had has said that the German army just manhandled the French army, I am not sure about the numbers but the French forces were down, also realize they were fight like they were fighting in WW 1, most historians say that is the main reason they lost, plus the German military machine was that good, they destroyed the Russian Army up until Stalingrad it wasn't until that loss that the German army went on the defensive for the rest of the War. Some of that was militiary blunders on Hitlers part and some of it was that Russians had more troops, they had 3X times the troop number than anybody else in the world so that is also why they won. About the anti-semitism, its high throughout Europe I am sure, it is still probably bad in Germany and else where I would just rule out France, Jews just aren't liked. Some of it has to do with Christianity and the Catholic Church (the Church took a blind eye to the Holocaust because they didn't care) the other is more complex and has to do with the social structure of Europe. Still I doubt 100% of French people hate Jews I am sure its in the 20-30% range at best but as I said I bet you would find at least 10% maybe more in this country.

[JediBoricua]

Calling the French Anti-Semitic for having a candidate for president that publicly denied the Holocaust would be the same as if a french citizen called the americans racist because they have the KKK.

It's the lunatic fringe, not the majority.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Exactly it like people who say everybody in the south is racist because we had David Dukes for a political candidate, etc. That is a huge generalization and I don't think it implies either way.

[Sanis Prent]

I'll dig up the information, but as division strength goes, France actually had more active divisions than Germany did. So farther than even having parity, France had the numerical advantage.

As far as anti-semite politics, its beyond the lunatic fringe when a majority nearly VOTE HIM INTO OFFICE.

This guy wasn't a small-potatoes candidate. He barely lost. That is night and day apart from David Duke.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I should have brought this up before the reason he came so close to winning was not anti-semtism it was xenophobia. Actually the French probably hate the arabs and minorities coming from Africa and Asia more because they are taking away jobs I think that is why he got so many votes, I think that was even brought up a couple of places. That is happening all throughout Europe and even here to some extent there is a lot of uneasiness with foriegners stealing jobs from native people, not saying that anxiety is right but its the truth.
Also I am not disagreeing about numbers though as I said the French army had no will to fight and were fight an old style of warfare they really thought that it would be trench warfare they didn't see the German machine coming as folish as that may sound. I wouldn't argue the French generals were incompenent all but De Gaulle but the French military hiearchy kind of pushed him aside. Also sure the French did surrender but it was the treasenous actions of Jospin and Petain, those two men gave up and the conspired with the Nazis they both paid that decision with their lives though as they were exectued by order of the Fourth Republic.

[Sanis Prent]

So instead of a David Duke, they got a Pat Buchanan. Thats peachy keen :rolleyes.

To put it lightly, that is alarming.

But, it does fit the trend of the French chastizing America for trespasses that they are themselves far more guilty of. That's why I take all this French rhetoric with a massive grain of salt. I trust Chirac as much as I can throw him, and he's a portly bastard...so its not too far.

[Marcus Telcontar]

This thread has some good commetns. But it has some right idiotic ones too.

What I would say is not to add to the right and wrong of the French - but to point out that it seems to me some USA residents take opposition to the now almost certain war (I'm betting the Jets will be bombing within 48 hours) as being un-American, a slight or and unfriendly gesture, being in league with the terrorists, aiding Saddam etc..... no. Nothing can be further from the truth. Chirac, while being a rather silly man, is representing his people, who are anti war. Many of these people have genuine concerns. I cant speak for them as I dont really know the french people or what they are thinking. However, if they are anything like Aussies....

Dont believe what our PM John Howard is saying. Australians have genuine concerns about this watr and a lot of unanswered questions. There appears to us to be no reason for this war. There are valid questions being asked and I would say a good 75% of the Aussie population are against any war without UN sacntioning. Those are several million residents who are not greenies, idiots, lefties, hippies or uni students. They are people from all walks, races and religions, actively asking ... why?

What makes (I believe) most of us concerned is the total rush to war with little thinking. Certainly, Rumsfield scares the crap outta us with his big mouth and the whole thing seems very cowboy. I think war could have been supported if the USA went about things differently and I suspect if the Bush Admin wasnt so lousy at playing politics, US troops would be in Bagdad right now with not a lot of stir.

The current opposition that has developed can be laid at the feet of the Bush Admin for not convincing the world for the need for this war. I'll make that point again, the case has not been made - if it has been, then it's not been in a way that can be understood.

There was a great deal of sympathy for the USA after Sept 11. rightly so. IF the Administration had gone about it right or even near right, they could have used that sympathy and be seen as a just cause. right now, it's not. It's seen as anything but just.

I'm sorry, but that's the way it's seen quite honestly down here. I could also add the comments of my neigbours, who are RAAF and are in the Gulf right now - most, before they left could not see the point. They are paid to fight, but mainly, they didnt see this as something they should be going to.

[Jedieb]

What makes (I believe) most of us concerned is the total rush to war with little thinking. Certainly, Rumsfield scares the crap outta us with his big mouth and the whole thing seems very cowboy. I think war could have been supported if the USA went about things differently and I suspect if the Bush Admin wasnt so lousy at playing politics, US troops would be in Bagdad right now with not a lot of stir.

The current opposition that has developed can be laid at the feet of the Bush Admin for not convincing the world for the need for this war. I'll make that point again, the case has not been made - if it has been, then it's not been in a way that can be understood.

Pretty good assessment IMO.

[JediBoricua]

Great post Marcus!

I have said it before, I am not anti-american, socialist, terrorist or an extreme leftist wacko. I am simply not convinced this war is neccesary and the fact that only three or four countries are willing to dictate world policy scares the hell out of me.

Saddam is no angel, but if the cure is worst than the disease I say we let the poor bastar burn himself out.

Really what has he done after sept. 11? Nothing. Has he threatened his neighbors, did his people pilot the planes, has he condoned, supported and financed terrorist attacks? No. And if he has where is the proof, I'm sorry but International Policy cannot be dictated by a 'gut feeling'. Also, when you take into consideration that Iraq has to be one of the most monitorized countries in the world with dozens of spy planes, satellites and agents providing information about it's activities for the last 12 years. But still no weapons of mass destruction, that has to mean something to someone.

Today we are on the brink of a war that will unleash a wave of islamic extremism and I fear that fifty years from now 9/11 would be looked as the 'first' attack and not as the 'only' attack. My thoughts are with you americans everyday, specially those on big cities.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I couldn't have said it better Marcus, actually I think George Schultz agrees with that assement, he said if he was secertary of State he would have done a better job and I think he is right.

[Sanis Prent]

The insanity of it is that the people who want inspections think they'll do a lick of good. Even the past inspectors have admitted that their work is like "sticking a finger in a glass of water". The instant you pull your finger out, you can never tell it was there. That is to say that whatever is found is deemed "expendable", and is offered up as a sacrificial appeasement lamb that Saddam knows will stave off action. The man actually has a counter-intelligence group to monitor the inspectors, and keep them one step behind. The only time they make a find, is when Saddam has little choice except to "offer something up".

So, I can't back the "peaceful solution" of carrying on inspections into perpetuity. I also can't back half measures like Clinton's "Tomahawk two-step" (funny, I didn't hear the lefties up in arms about that one). Its been months, and every time I've heard the question asked about "Ok, what should we do, if not war..." it gives people a "Deer in the Headlights" look. They don't know. There is no plan. More inspectors? To hell with that. Ask Mr. Butler what he thinks of that, or anybody on the 98 team that isn't a child molestation suspect. We've been playing a shell game for 12 years too long. Everybody on earth should have "GULLIBLE" stamped on their forehead for each day we've procrastinated this course of action.

[Darth Viscera]

Yes, he showed his slick willy to a girl he presumed was a 14-year old he met on the internet (they rendevoused at burger king), but the 14 year old girl was actually an undercover cop, so Scott Ritter got to have his day in court.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Everybody on earth should have "GULLIBLE" stamped on their forehead for each day we've procrastinated this course of action.

So..... everyone else is wrong and your right?


So, I can't back the "peaceful solution" of carrying on inspections into perpetuity. I also can't back half measures like Clinton's "Tomahawk two-step" (funny, I didn't hear the lefties up in arms about that one). Its been months, and every time I've heard the question asked about "Ok, what should we do, if not war..." it gives people a "Deer in the Headlights" look. They don't know. There is no plan. More inspectors? To hell with that. Ask Mr. Butler what he thinks of that, or anybody on the 98 team that isn't a child molestation suspect. We've been playing a shell game for 12 years too long

Robin Cook, the resigning Foreign Secretary of the UK disagrees with you. Right now, he is speaking about how containemtn has worked - and the fact that Saddam is right now so poorly equipped, they will be flattened. That is because of the weapons inspections and containment policies of the last twelve years. He is putting it more eloquently than I could, but he is saying, right now, that the reason Iraq will be dead easy to invade is because of the very things you say havent worked.

I hope there will be a trascript I could post. It's great stuff to listen to.

[ReaperFett]

Robin Cook? Ha! He's been a figure of joke for a long time. Good to see he's gone.


Little facts for you. ITN poll. Support of going to war without a resolution has rose. Faith in Bush has rose. Faith in Blair has rose.


And the UK has deemed the war legal, due to resolutions 678, 687 and 1441. What was that other guy we did this with. You know him. Bit like Saddam, killed his own people. He had sanctions he ignored, and the world did nothing. Jeez, what WAS that guys name?



Oh yeah. Hitler.

[Marcus Telcontar]

:rolleyes

[ReaperFett]

Use words if you want :)

[Sanis Prent]

That is the emoticon of capitulation, Fett. He's waving the French flag ;)

[Marcus Telcontar]

No, it's the emoticon of Fett is an idiot and I refuse to reply to him anymore.

[Figrin D'an]

So Fett is an idiot because he makes a somewhat valid point?


What I find most amusing, in a very sad way, is that resolution 1441 was originally passed by a 15-0 vote. Yet now, there is huge opposition to a resolution that wants to act upon the "serious consequences" clause of 1441, outlining that military action would be an appropriate measure of response.

1441 was the final ultimatum... now no one wants to act on it.

woohoo... go UN and vague wording that allows for months of diplomatic stalemates... :rolleyes

[Marcus Telcontar]

No, I'm just thoughily had it with him. Sanis, despite his very pro war stance, I can understand and read - while I believe it's wrong, it does have some validity and questions that should be answered. I do think he takes the anti french thing a bit too far, but whatever.

[JediBoricua]

Okay we are going after Saddam because he is a dictator like Hitler...right. So after that what's next? The dozen african countries with dictators, genocide, and civil wars. How about the dozens of american allies that are dictatorships. Let's not forget about Cuba and of course N. Korea!

What, there is no oil in this countries? Ahhhh, forget it then.

Last year a millions died in civil wars in Africa, ethnic cleansing occured, civil wars, the same or worse than Hitler. How many marines were deployed? How many resolutions passed? How many public speeches? About zero.

This is not against the US only but against the whole international community. If you are going to invade Iraq give me a better reason than "Saddam is a dictator, a brute, a savage, etc."

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Figrin D'an
What I find most amusing, in a very sad way, is that resolution 1441 was originally passed by a 15-0 vote. Yet now, there is huge opposition to a resolution that wants to act upon the "serious consequences" clause of 1441, outlining that military action would be an appropriate measure of response.

1441 was the final ultimatum... now no one wants to act on it.

woohoo... go UN and vague wording that allows for months of diplomatic stalemates... :rolleyes

Those "serious consequences" were way too multi-interpretable. Everyone could agree on it, coz everyone could explain it the way they wanted to.

[ReaperFett]

If you've had it with me marcus, why bother even responding? Why not reply to those around me only?


Oh, dont worry JB, I think theres others that should be dealt with. In many ways, I think Zimbabwe should have been the first priority.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by Dutchy
Those "serious consequences" were way too multi-interpretable. Everyone could agree on it, coz everyone could explain it the way they wanted to.

Exactly. what are those consequences? Sanctions? A wedgy? A nuke? 1441 was worded like it was, as it was a compromise resolution - the USA wanted military action specified. 1441 was worded in a way that everyone could agree to - becuase it was so open ended and non definded.

[JediBoricua]

Then you have to agree with me that if there wasn't oil in Iraq, and in the region we wouldn't care less about Saddam. If he were president of Bostwana he could gas as many kurds as he liked, the West couldn't care less.

[ReaperFett]

No, I dont agree to that. Did you know two of the main beneficiaries of Iraqi oil are Russia and France? So cant we argue that THEY only say no due to the oil?

[Sanis Prent]

Because Somalia, Panama, Grenada, Haiti, Kosovo, etcetcetc are all LOADED with crude, as we all know from textbooks :)

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Dutchy
Those "serious consequences" were way too multi-interpretable. Everyone could agree on it, coz everyone could explain it the way they wanted to.


Hence my sarcastic comment about vague wording.

[JediBoricua]

Not with Oil Sanis, but with plenty of banana and fruit companies making millions for the rich american people, that in Panama alone.

But i do applaud action in Haiti and Somalia, and Granada is understandable. Like I said i'm not anti-american or an extreme pacifist, I have no problem supporting military action if it were the only way out. This time though it isn't.

And yeah Fett I realize that, and I condemn it, but for some fate of destiny our positions (France's, Russia's and mine) are the same although not for the same reasons. Actually it's kind of stupid for them to be so stubborn because everyone knows that Saddam will never repay the debt he has with them, so it would be a better business IMO to join a coalition and guarantee a piece of the pie, that won't happen now.

[ReaperFett]

And yeah Fett I realize that, and I condemn it, but for some fate of destiny our positions (France's, Russia's and mine) are the same although not for the same reasons. Actually it's kind of stupid for them to be so stubborn because everyone knows that Saddam will never repay the debt he has with them, so it would be a better business IMO to join a coalition and guarantee a piece of the pie, that won't happen now.
Intresting thoughts

[JediBoricua]

That's my economy major thinking, not my ideals and belief.

Anyway back to topic, the French strike back!

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/03/17/offbeat.pretzels.reut/index.html

Like Sanis said in another thread, it's only a matter of time 'til the aliens wipe us all out.

[Sanis Prent]

March Seventeenth, Two Thousand and Three. A date that will live...in infamy. President George W. Bush was suddenly, and deliberately attacked, by a French pretzel...proving once again that French food really really sucks.

Notice how they've only sold 250? :)

[Sigil Roland]

I hate to break up this livly debate about pretzels and other French things, but it seems that it's time to end this.

According to CNN, Sadam has 48 hours to leave Iraq or there will be war.

[Sanis Prent]

And they claim that we're heartless, capitalist bastards...did you see how much those pretzels cost? 7.56 euros...thats like 8 US!!! So they're charging three times the stadium price for a pretzel!

SONUFABITCH, those greedy frogs :lol

[JediBoricua]

I was actually thinking the same thing when I read it. Dang!

[Jedi Master Carr]

What about the Congo, more people have died there in the last 10 years than Saddam has ever killed, we are doing nothing about that part of the world. What about the Sudan, there is a civil war going on there which is horrible one side has done some barbaric things to the other and nobody has said one word about it. Now both of those places are in Africa and I guess nobody cares but still if you are going to do something about one place you have to do something about every place. That is why I say screw them I don't care if people kill people in some other country I give up they will keep killing each other in 10 years, like in Yugoslavia we accomplished nothing there they still hate each other and once the troops leave they will be killing each other again its endless cycle. I say only do something if there is a threat to us, and I don't see a threat Saddam hasn't done anything in 15 years why would he do something now? Honestly North Korea is the bigger threat they are building nukes and at least they will sell them to whoever wants them, to me that is a greater danger.

[Figrin D'an]

And 1 whole euro of the 7 that it costs to buy a pretzel goes to charity...

:rolleyes

[Admiral Lebron]

That reminds me of an SNL skit one time...

"I could confuse a nuclear bomb for a box of wheaties and give it to Saddam" - Kim Jong Il (sp?)

[ReaperFett]

Honestly North Korea is the bigger threat they are building nukes and at least they will sell them to whoever wants them, to me that is a greater danger.
First, NKorea werent building until the dumb Axis of Evil speech. Second, they have the same situation that India/Pakistan and US/Russia (Cold war) have/had. They fire, they lose as well. Iraq is a different case.


And remember, you have to do these things one at a time. You can go listing all the countries that do bad things, but you cant take them all. First one you deal with is the one thats against YOU. Then you go round the others.

Of course, then there's the risk of France having them all round for dinner first, eh? :rolleyes

[Sanis Prent]

First, NKorea werent building until the dumb Axis of Evil speech.

Opinion. Ignored. I highly doubt the sudden drive for the bomb is due to "Mean ol America saying bad words". To imply such is to systematically suck 50 IQ points from every man, woman, and child on earth.

[ReaperFett]

They didnt have a need before. SK wouldnt dare touch them. Noone else would touch them DUE to SK.

[Sanis Prent]

Cite.

[ReaperFett]

And that means....?

[Sanis Prent]

You pull something out of your butt. I ask you to back it up.

[ReaperFett]

How about the fact that they announced Nuclear tests, something they werent doing before?

And anyway, back to you. You gave a reply (Im more respectful than to straight away act like anyone who disagrees is wrong), back it up.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think they have intensive their aggression since that speech, this is just my opinion though, I am sure they were working on something before. Also it is not just that they have that is one thing, it is the fact they will sell them. By the end of the year they will have 10 nukes according to sources, I bet they will try to sell half of them, then all it will take is some nut from Hamas or Al'Quadi to buy it and blow it up somewhere in Europe or the Middle East, that would not be a good thing.

[Sanis Prent]

You don't just go "Oh, I'll try that nuclear thing" within less than a year of somebody saying bad words. These projects take years and years. Especially with the kind of clamped-down situation North Korea is in. Combine that with the fact that the Korean War never ended, and is still in "cease fire" mode, then thats a pretty damn convincing case that N. Korea was setting up the bomb way before the Axis of Evil.

[Jedieb]

What I find most amusing, in a very sad way, is that resolution 1441 was originally passed by a 15-0 vote. Yet now, there is huge opposition to a resolution that wants to act upon the "serious consequences" clause of 1441, outlining that military action would be an appropriate measure of response.

1441 was the final ultimatum... now no one wants to act on it.

It took seven weeks to hammer out that resolution. Both sides made concessions. While the administration likes to tout the "final ultimatum" line, they convieniently omit the portion of the resolution that states that even if Iraq was found to be in violation that no action was to be taken without another meeting by the UN. The resolution was never intended to be used as a green light for an invasion the second Iraq was found to be in violation of the resolution. It was also never intended to provide nations opposed to the war time to stall indefinitely. The administration, once it saw that the France, Russia, and China(yes, it's not just the French) were not going to vote in their favor, pretty much abandoned the part of the resolution they didn't like. Now they're going ahead with the war.

[Sanis Prent]

:thumbup

[Jedi Master Carr]

I didn't mean they started building nukes right after the speech, I mean they became more agressive in the words I think the speech made them mad and they decided to show us some of their cards.

[Sanis Prent]

Which is preferable to them keeping those cards clandestine and hidden. AKA - :thumbup

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Jedieb
It took seven weeks to hammer out that resolution. Both sides made concessions. While the administration likes to tout the "final ultimatum" line, they convieniently omit the portion of the resolution that states that even if Iraq was found to be in violation that no action was to be taken without another meeting by the UN. The resolution was never intended to be used as a green light for an invasion the second Iraq was found to be in violation of the resolution. It was also never intended to provide nations opposed to the war time to stall indefinitely. The administration, once it saw that the France, Russia, and China(yes, it's not just the French) were not going to vote in their favor, pretty much abandoned the part of the resolution they didn't like. Now they're going ahead with the war.


My point was that the vague wording of the "serious consequences" clause of 1441 paved the way for what has occured on the Security Council for the past 6 months. It was practically inevitable because the clause would satisfy anyone's interpretation. There was no common ground reached... it was just a way to get the Council to vote "yes" and make it look like the UN was actually doing something about the situation. It's just another tidbit to show how inept the UN has become.

[Sanis Prent]

^

What Figo said.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well if our CIA didn't know they had nukes before they annouced it we better do some major changes in it.

[Sanis Prent]

Why do you think we lumped them in the Axis of Evil? :)

It essentially prompted them to admit what was known.

[Jedieb]

Fig, I'd say that there was some common ground reached, or the 15-0 vote would never have taken place. The administration was never satisfied with the results coming out of Baghdad, or the interpretation of those results by Blix and his staff. So, they kept going back to their portion of the resolution. While the French, Russians, and Chinese kept referring to the sections of the resolution that called for inspections and further meeting by the council. The US. was trying to get the next resolution that 1441 called for, but when they saw the votes weren't there they just decided to go ahead on their own. As annying as the French can be, they're being made into scapegoats. They weren't the only ones who were going to vote against the U.S.

The way I see it, the UN apparenlty only seems to be inept when the U.S. DOESN'T get it's way. I'll go back to what I've said before, I see this as a mistake because there's too much international opposition to this invasion. Saddam was being contained by the resolutions. If there had been direct evidence linking him to 9/11 or proof that he was a legitimate threat to his neighbors or the U.S. than the international community would be more than willing to lend their support. The support was there in 91, but it's NOT here this time. We're setting ourselves up to invade and OCCUPY a Muslim country. This isn't going to help our war on terroism. It's going to make it even more difficult.

The debate is over anyway. The fighting will begin by the end of the week.

[Sanis Prent]

As annying as the French can be, they're being made into scapegoats. They weren't the only ones who were going to vote against the U.S.

They were, however, the most vocal, the most stubborn, the most threatening, and the most belittling. They used the entire event to grasp at a Hegemony in Europe, and it blew up in their face. They deserve every ounce of the harsh sentiment they get.


We're setting ourselves up to invade and OCCUPY a Muslim country. This isn't going to help our war on terroism. It's going to make it even more difficult.

How? They already want to KILL US ALL. You don't exactly upgrade from that point. I think removing major terrorism support, and stabilizing a nation will do much more harm than good.

[Jedieb]

ALL Muslims want to kill us? Really, where did that treasured bit of insight come from. Well I'll say this, those that were sitting on the fence will have their minds made up by this invasion and occupation. And how did the French "threaten" anyone? They pointed a veto at us, not a frickin' howitzer. At least the veto was pointed in the right direction.

As for "stabilizing", I can't wait to see how stabalized all of those Iraqi tribal factions are going to be once the lid is taken off of them. This should be interesting.

[Sanis Prent]

ALL Muslims want to kill us?

I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.


And how did the French "threaten" anyone?

See: unconditional veto, Vilinius Group, EU Hegemony


As for "stabilizing", I can't wait to see how stabalized all of those Iraqi tribal factions are going to be once the lid is taken off of them. This should be interesting.

Iraq is unique in being a very heterogeneous nation in the middle east, and has a strong democratic underground that's been around for a decade. If there's any shot at making things right at the region, my money is there.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don't know there was this historian on CNN who said that Iraq is like Yugoslavia there are a lot of Ethnic groups. Also the Kurds could cause trouble with Turkey, because the ones there want independence too you could have civil wars in some of these middle east countries.

[Sanis Prent]

Turkey only becomes an issue if the Kurds make a move for a Kurdish state. However, as both governing bodies in Kurdistan have stated many times before (I'm actually in correspondance with people in the PUK) they are committed to a democratic Iraqi state. That being said, it should lessen Turkish woes.

[ReaperFett]

And how did the French "threaten" anyone?
They told the joining members of the UN now would have been a good time to shut up. As if to have an opinion is a bad thing.

[Figrin D'an]

Yes, I believe Chirac said, very publically, that certain countries looking to enter the EU would do well to avoid throwing their support to the US/UK/Spain initiative.

Sounds like a threat to me.

[imported_Eve]

This thread is horrible. If some here spent as much time studying politics, culture, and econ as they do insulting one another and being cocky in their opinions, human beings might have a chance.