Any Akira Kurosawa buffs?

[JonathanLB]

I just started my studies of him this last weekend, hehe, finally. I saw Rashomon, Seven Samurai, and The Hidden Fortress. I'm working first on his best known work, then to as much as I can possibly find.

I ordered two slightly more obscure films from a Japanese DVD site. I think one of them was Ikiru, but I forget.

Anyway NetFlix has a number now, about 3 that I don't own (I have 7, including the 3 I watched).

I honestly have to say that on first viewing, I think I might like Rashomon the best, as blasphemous as that is to Seven Samurai, or even to The Hidden Fortress, a recognized influence on Star Wars. I loved them all, easily four star films, but as a philosophy major especially, Rashomon really interested me. I liked its brief running time, too, very well paced.

Still, it's hard not to love Seven Samurai for its brilliant action scenes, great cinematography, and actually quite a few messages hidden in there. The Hidden Fortress was the funniest of them all, almost laughs throughout. It was hard for me to say which I liked more, Seven Samurai or Hidden Fortress. At least on first viewing, it's tough to rank these.

Next will be Sanjuro and Yojimbo, then Ran, then probably Madadayo, but depending on when I get those other two films. I may save Madadayo for a bit later.

I have not studied Japanese cinema all that much, although I love Asian cinema in general. I've just studied Hayao Miyazaki, the animation master, besides these three Kurosawa films.

I have three French movies to watch this weekend (two New Wave, one Renoir), and a few Soviet formalist movies, and probably if those German expressionist films get to me (I ordered them new from Amazon sellers on the marketplace) I'll watch a few of those, plus I have to see an Italian film for this film class of mine (probably Life is Beautiful because it's easy to find at Blockbuster). Yikes, though, so much good foreign film, yet so many hundreds of American movies I've not seen either, lol.

[CMJ]

I'm somewhat versed in his work. My favorite stuff of his are "Ran" and "Stray Dog". Maybe I should see "Roshoman" again though.

Also see "Seven Samurai"(of course) along with a few others you *didn't* mention: "Sugata Sanshiro" and "Ikiru". Shamefully, I've never seen "Hidden Fortress" though.

[Sejah Haversh]

See, told you Rashoman was good!

And Kagemusha is phenomenal as well. Though, I still find Yojimbo to be the most entertaining.

I love Kurosawa's movies, even though I've only seen a few of them. Local video stores have NONE around here! Argh, it's annoying...

[Mu Satach]

Luv Kurosawa's work. Unfortunately I only have seen a few films. Ran, the Seven Samuri and another I can't think of at the moment. I've seen a clip from another film, but I can't remember the title where a samuri is being attacked by a ton of arrows. Awesome effect. Makes my eyes bulge.

[RogueLeader]

Can't say I've heard of the person. Sorry about that.

[JonathanLB]

I hope you are joking, and I think you are, lol. Kurosawa is only one of the world's most famous, greatest directors. Surely the greatest Japanese director in film history. Not to mention that anyone who claims to be a Star Wars fan better be familiar with who Kurosawa is, at least, considering the SW movies literally borrow exact scenes from Kurosawa's work.

Look no further than the peasants fighting with one another at the start of The Hidden Fortress, then of course they part ways, but what do you know? They're soon brought back together. Exactly like R2 and Threepio in ANH. It's amazing the resemblance.

I think I've finally seen all of the primary works (besides the Flash Gordon stuff) that influenced Star Wars, notably Metropolis, The Hidden Fortress, and The Searchers (some scenes in this too that look just like Star Wars, yet The Searchers actually borrows from some of Kurosawa's work too, interestingly).

CMJ, I mentioned Ikiru there, but just briefly. I haven't seen it. I think I ordered it, so will see it in the next 6-8 weeks I hope.

I've probably heard of every Kurosawa film as I've spent time looking through his filmography in detail, so I could probably say I've heard of every film he has done, but it depends also on what translation you use.

Now with the other film you mentioned, it is often called Sanshiro Sugata because the sequel is Sanshiro Sugata Part II, although IMDB still lists the first as "Sugata Sanshiro," which seems confusing to me. I still will go with Sanshiro Sugata and Sanshiro Sugata Part II as the official names. Whatever, though. I think it has to do with the Japanese way of addressing people? I know that I would be Bowen Jonathan to them, not Jonathan Bowen, which is incorrect once translated to English. We simply don't put the last name first (nor would it make sense to.......).

I'm anxious to see Throne of Blood actually. I'm really curious to see what he did with that. I loved Macbeth. I think it's far better than Romeo and Juliet, better known or not. I'm not a big fan of the Romeo and Juliet thing. It's a cliched, silly love story by this point. Sure it may have been original at the time, but it was no less silly. It's well written as always but not compelling. Now Macbeth, I thought it was incredibly well written, laced with tons of great metaphors and symbolism, and a great story in general. I've never seen a movie of it before, though I am positive many must exist (and Throne of Blood is one of them, even without the same name).

[Loki Ahmrah]

Not to mention that anyone who claims to be a Star Wars fan better be familiar with who Kurosawa is, at least, considering the SW movies literally borrow exact scenes from Kurosawa's work.

I stopped reading your post after this statement as I'm tired of your assumptions on what a Star Wars fan should be. But lucky me, I know of Kurosawa and his work, so I fit into your template of the be-all-and-end-all Star Wars fan. Go me.

[JonathanLB]

You are being ridiculous, which is not a new occurrence. You think you are right and that I am just being demanding and elitist, but in fact you are the one in error and I can prove that logically.

Would you not agree that a baseball player should know who Babe Ruth is, or should know the speed of a fast ball roughly in today's game, or should know what a shortstop does? Of course they should. Baseball players need to have specific knowledge of what they are doing, the game they are playing. One can reasonably expect anyone who takes baseball seriously to have at least a passing knowledge of the history of baseball because this is a passion that apparently interests them enough to be playing the game. They also better know all of the rules of the game fairly well, or at least 99% of them, because this is the sport they have chosen to pursue and it's very important that they know these rules.

With a Star Wars fan, the same thing applies. One can reasonably expect that ANY Star Wars fan who is, as he claims, actually a Star Wars fan had better know that George Lucas directed the first movie, or that the first movie came out in 1977, or that Luke's last name is Skywalker, or any other number of obvious requisite facts for a fan of the saga. It's idiotic and simply untrue, showing a lack of intelligence, to state that a Star Wars fan need not meet any criteria whatsoever. Every title, be it Star Wars fan, baseball player, sports enthusiast, good driver, manager, has a certain set of definitions that go along with it. A good driver is reasonably someone who does not drive while drinking, uses turn signals correctly, pays attention to the safety of other people by watching the road and watching other drives, obeys relevant traffic laws, and drives cautiously but assertively. A sports enthusiast is reasonably someone who has an appreciation for a variety of sports, not necessarily them all, or not necessarily the popular ones even, but someone who appreciates watching sports, reading about athletes, or even gaining an understanding of the history of certain sports. It doesn't have to be someone who can tell you every fact about every sport, by any means, but would you call a person a sports enthusiast who hates going to any sporting events and doesn't know what ESPN is, let alone what it stands for? I wouldn't say so.

A Star Wars fan should know who Joseph Campell is, who Akira Kurosawa is, who John Williams is, and should be aware of the relevant influences on the saga at a basic level. This does not, however, whatsoever mean that the person must have seen Metropolis, The Hidden Fortoress, The Searchers, or ANY other film like that. No. That is ridiculous. But I would expect that a Star Wars fan may at least be aware of the fact that Lucas drew influence from other works for his Star Wars movies. Only the very newest fan, or the most disintered, would be unaware of such facts. When I was first a fan, of course, I knew very little about Star Wars. I was barely a fan at that point, but I was learning quickly and studying this new interest of mine so as to be truly what one could call a "fan" (let's not forget people -- FANATIC is FAN; that's not an interpretation, but a fact). By the end of my first year of fandom, or actually more like 6 months, I was aware, at a basic level, of the myths and works that influenced George Lucas to make Star Wars and the subsequent films. I mean, I was a fan, I watched the movies many times, I studied them as a scholar or a fan or an enthusiast would do. This just makes sense.

Dictionary.com defines a fan as "an ardent devotee." To be ardent, dictionary.com says, is to be "fervent" or "passionate" and I do not believe those words would be appropriate to use for anyone who barely knows about the Star Wars films. You would not say a person is passionate about cars if he doesn't know what a Porsche is, would you? You wouldn't say a person is passionate about another person if this first person doesn't even know the other person's name, or their interests, for instance, or their background. Not generally speaking, anyway.

I think there is way too much relativism going on in today's world and that applies to Star Wars fandom, too, just as much as to political opinions or ethical decisions. You cannot simply say, "Oh well whatever is good for you is ok to do," because if one person enjoys killing small animals, I think most people can agree that is NOT ok, and morally speaking, I will say that is *absolutely* not ok, and not acceptable, and immoral. With a Star Wars fan, people often say, "Well anyone is a fan if they say they are," or "Well who are we to say who is a fan or who is not?" That's a relativist position that I think need not exist. There ARE fans and there are wannabe fans, or people who appreciate something without truly being devoted to it. I don't see how that statement could possibly be objectionable.

I read a definition of beauty in one of my philosophy books just today talking about how beauty of art is usually most properly decided by authorities in the field, which I felt was fair. A great film is not dependent on what the populace thinks of it. The opinions of the uneducated masses do not constitute a fair judgment of a work. Critics, film scholars, film historians, directors, producers, writers, and other educated people in the industry truly decide the beauty of a work for all time because their opinions are likely to last. If some 14-year-old kid comes up and says, "Citizen Kane SUCKS, the movie is total trash." Well obviously they have the right to this opinion and I will defend their right to state such an opinion vehemently, but I would also say this person is misinformed and not educated about film most likely. If they can prove to me through reasoned argument in a 25 page thesis or 50 page thesis paper perhaps, using actual facts and instances, I would be impressed and may consider believing their opinion to be valid, at least. Nonetheless, beauty is not totally relative. In order to appreciate beauty, you need to have an appreciation for the form of object or idea we are discussing. One person may not know anything about show dogs so really is not going to know what is beautiful as far as dogs go, but a person who breeds and trains dogs, and shows them in contests, is going to be worthy of giving an opinion on the subject that has some weight. The same goes with film, visual arts like paintings (I am unqualified to judge paintings except on the most basic level right now because it's not a subject about which I am educated), music (again, I'm not truly an educated music buff here), and basically every other area of study.

I do not expect a woman to know why another woman is beautiful, for instance, because such seems an unfair expectation of discerning beauty. I admit many women are actually good at telling what other women are beautiful, which is interesting to me (I swear girls are far more critical than guys are, of girls, that is), but it's not an expectation. If I made a statement about how I think Britney Spears is a good musician, I would not expect anyone to take my opinion to heart as I'm not an expert in music and my opinion is simply... based on personal emotions, perhaps. Now if a music critic wrote a well informed essay defending Miss Spears, that would strike me as interesting and worth reading because this person appreciates music and has studied it greatly, therefore warrants my attention.

That also leads to why I believe film critics deserve respect even when we think they are wrong. Frankly, I think Ebert and my friend over at Spliced Wire, Rob, are both wrong, in a huge way, about Old School. The movie is hilarious. I must question their mood that day, or their senses of humor, because I found the film absolutely hilarious. Nonetheless, I respect what Ebert writes about film because I doubt more than a handful of people in the entire world, if anyone at all, have seen more films than he has and that makes his opinions at least worth reading, even if I still entirely disagree (the guy is funny, too; at the end of his Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle review, he writes a sentence saying, "I still think 'Turtle' is a really funny word," or something; just a great bit of humor and personality added on at the end).

[Diego Van Derveld]

So....who else other than Jon Bowen is publishing the "Official Quantifiable Guide to Star Wars Fandom"? Where do I buy it, and once that's answered, how many dusty copies of L. Ron Hubbard books do I have to dig through in the bargain bin before I find it?

Absolute rubbish.

[Sejah Haversh]

You know, Johnathan, there was a time when you didn't know who he was either. I'd reckon you learned about him the same time I did.

And, if you were a fan of comics, I could bash you if you didn't know who Will Eisner was. Or Bob Kane.

Fact is, Kurosawa's work, though incredible, has not been seen by probably 80% of America, and even fewer even know who he is outside of foreign film fans, people from Japan, or film students.

There is a very logical reason many don't know of him. TV doesn't often play subtitled movies of that age, no matter how good they are. Those kind of movies aren't what sponsors want to pay to have their ads run during. Simple as that.

[Dirjj Mordrai]

I think everyone is getting carried away with Jonathan! He was simply stating that the deepest roots of Star Wars lies in The Hidden Fortress. Let's see there is a princess of a conquored kingdom with a bounty on her head. She has a legendary samurai general protecting her portrayed brilliantly by the japanese filmstar great Toshiro Mifune (likely inspired Obi-Wan)!

Also has two scoundrely commoners bumbling around very humourously. Even has them separated in the wilderness in which both are subsequently captured. (a la R2D2 and C3PO with the whole Tatooine dune scene. And the Jawa scene.) And the Deathstar has connotations of a hidden fortress and an impenetrable kingdom. Both found in this movie. The similies between these movies are endless in detail.

Grrr.. come-on guys! Anyways, Akira Kurosawa is a brilliant pioneer of cinema. I am currently collecting his works along with his more obscure contemporaries such as Hiroshi Inagaki and Masaki Kobayashi.

[Hadrian Invicta]

First thing I ever heard of Kurosawa was in the Bare Nake Ladies song; "One Week" lol, I then precided to watch "The Shadow Warrior" Can't remember the actual Japanese title and was impressed, I then realized that I had heard of this fellow due to references from Clint Eastwood movies.

As to the definition of Star Wars fan or Baseball fan or Anything fan.

You have fans, such as myself who are casual observers, we have other things, such as our classes, girlfriends, and hobbies that we spend our time on.

What you describe is a fanatic or an obsession. I'm a huge University of Illinois fan, I know tons fo stuff about their football teams, basketball teams and Academic programs, that being said I can't tell you who was on the starting lineup of their final four team or who was on their last rosebowl squad, (besides Jeff George). I can't tell you their overall record for the last 50 years. Does that make me any less a fan than someone who can? No it just means I'm a bit more chemically balanced :crack

[Dirjj Mordrai]

Yes, Yojimbo had inspired Sergio Leone's spaghetti westerns. Another foreign director I hold in high esteem. Though not highly as Kurosawa whom I feel is one the greatest in cinema history worldwide. What is so charming about his movies is I feel they are reflection of eastern culture or thought, and yet, to your surprise you discover a very western appeal to them. Marvelous masterpieces. I have alot more investments to make in movies than I can shake a checkbook at.

(Interesting sidenote - Sergio only directed 6 movies while Kurosawa directed 27 movies.)

[Diego Van Derveld]

Pfft....that just means you go to Illinois, Hadrian :)

Its a different matter entirely for the Church of Bryant :)

[JonathanLB]

"You have fans, such as myself who are casual observers, we have other things, such as our classes, girlfriends, and hobbies that we spend our time on."

And there's nothing wrong with that :)

As for the comic statement, I think that is true too. I have no idea who those people are, but then again, I'm not a comics fan obviously.

Kurosawa is indeed the master, though.

There's a difference between knowing who someone is and really knowing them or their work, though. I've known Kurosawa for about 5 years anyway, but hadn't seen any of his work until last weekend. I know who G. W. Pabst is but I've never seen any of his movies either, besides a little clip of one.

By saying that 80% of people in the U.S. are not familiar with him, well, that only tells me that most people in the U.S. are not movie buffs, which I already know, and wouldn't expect them to be, either. That'd be boring if everyone was a movie buff, then there wouldn't be any history buffs, or music buffs, or sports buffs, etc.

[Sejah Haversh]

That's right. And a week ago, you only knew of Akira Kurosawa, and didn't know his work, now did you?

Wasn't I the one who stongly encouraged you to watch thoise films as soon as you could?

Kurosawa's fims are great. They're fun, funny, and often make a point. That's the reason I like them. Not for camera angles, or other nitpicky things, but the overall effect, and the fact that many star Toshiro Mifune, the best comedic samurai actor ever. End of story.

[JonathanLB]

Hey hey now...

"Wasn't I the one who stongly encouraged you to watch thoise films as soon as you could?"

Let's not get carried away -- those were already planned from about two months ago for ENG 110, my film class. It was required that I watch one Japanese film in addition to Seven Samurai, which is part of the film screenings. I bought these movies back in November and got them in December for birthday. It's not as though you convinced me to see them finally, haha, that was already something I was planning for that weekend (because we moved from German film to Soviet cinema to French cinema to Italian cinema to Japanese cinema last).

[Sejah Haversh]

:) The fact remains that I still did strongly encourage you, though.

Don't get so defensive, I wasn;t trying to rip on you, okay? Sheesh, I was just having a little fun. Lighten up, dude.

[JonathanLB]

I know you weren't, no harm no foul. It's no big deal :)

Anyway I appreciated you telling me about the other Kurosawa films you have seen too.

I hear Ebert's favorite is Ikiru, that's what he writes anyway. I had no idea it was supposed to be so good, but I did order it, so when I finally get it I can't wait to see it.

[CMJ]

I really liked the first half of "Ikiru"...the second half, not nearly as much.

[JonathanLB]

Ah, I see. Well I just got this autobiography on Kurosawa, but it only covers through Rashomon, so now I gotta get a lot of these earlier films seen so I can actually know what he is talking about. His writing is really funny, he's very critical sometimes of Japanese culture! It's surprising.

[Jedieb]

I thought the only real SW Fans were the ones who collected toys, had SW tatoos, named their children after characters, attended Mexican SW collector conventions, snuck on to the set of Blue Harvest, saw ANH opening day at Mann, saw ESB and ROTJ on midnight showings, read all EU material, and shouted out "I FEEL THE FORCE!" during their orgasms? You guys are such posers! :rolleyes

I saw a couple of Kurusawa films as a kid but nothing in years. I think I may try to get a few on DVD. I really want to see how they match up with some Sergio films.

[JonathanLB]

You are as much of a real fan as they come, EB :)

[Dirjj Mordrai]

:lol Jedieb

Excellent, something about reknowned foreign directors. Something about their style and the quality of the film is superb because I think largely the movies are untouched by hype, big names, and glamour (a la Hollywood). Myself have seen very few Kurosawa films but the ones I seen I enjoyed immensely. I don't think he ever made a bad movie.

[JonathanLB]

I do like a lot of foreign films, and directors. It's always interesting to see the different, new things they bring to cinema that you just don't see in Hollywood. Every film industry is different to a degree. While Hollywood is absolutely fantastic, it's nice and refreshing to be exposed to entirely different ways of making movies, too. Like I've never really seen anything like Eisenstein's work, or the work of the Soviet formalists in general, although you might very well see formalist editing for sequences in a movie, and Lucas uses that, too, you don't see entire movies constructed with that technique, which I think is really cool. Same with these French New Wave films. They are really weird, but weird in a good way. They're just unlike anything I have seen before or since.

[Dirjj Mordrai]

Especially one such as yourself, a student of film and cinema. I think it is imperative to be exposed to foreign styles and ideas. Not just inclusive to the ones produced in Hollywood. One element I noticed with foreign films, they seem to almost always carry an underlying message in them. Unlike Hollywood, that produces meaningless action and comedy by the dozens in a month.

[Jedieb]

Sergio Leone is my favorite foreign director. Bergman... well I don't know what the hell is going on there. Someone's always smoking, Death is every other shot, just what the hell is going on?!

(Cheap jokes because I've never actually seen an entire Bergman flick.)

[JonathanLB]

Couldn't tell ya, I haven't gotten into Bergman stuff yet.

As for foreign films, I cannot really comment because all I see are the best foreign films, so from my perspective foreign movies are, on average, better than Hollywood ones, haha, but I know that's not true because there are like 2,000 great movies from America and maybe 100 from a good foreign country. Maybe that's unfair, there are more than that, but the point stands that you are best served as a film student of any country spending at least 50% of your time on the films of one nation -- the United States. As my film teacher Jon Lewis says, who of course loves movies from all cultures, "America has always dominated film from the beginning." Especially in the earliest years, actually. Thankfully foreign countries have added a heck of a lot to the international medium and history of cinema.

Any student of film surely must cover the films of numerous other countries because many of the best directors are from foreign countries. Fritz Lang, F. W. Murnau, Akira Kurosawa, Sergei Eisenstein, Jean-Luc Godard, Francois Truffaut, etc. etc.

I think a lot of the newest foreign films I've seen lately outside ones from Asia are terrible, namely Amores Perros, Y Tu Mama Tambien, and Talk to Her, but besides that, my experiences with the older movies have been good.

[JonathanLB]

I watched Yojimbo on Friday, great film. I think I like it more than Seven Samurai in some ways (blasphemy again).

Honestly Seven Samurai is a bit long for me. I prefer a more swiftly paced film like Yojimbo, which I think is easily Mifune's best performance of the film's I've seen so far. It's excellent.

To be honest, Mifune wasn't the most impressive actor in Seven Samurai. The older guy was the best, then I liked the young samurai who gets with that chick from the village. Mifune is just another character, not one of the best in the film. In Yojimbo, he is THE MAN. Awesome movie, awesome performance.

I got two books on Kurosawa recently, with a third that is supposed to be here soon.

I have Kurosawa's autobiography and I just got this HUGE 800 page book on him and Mifune called "The Emperor and the Wolf: The Lives and Films of Akira Kurosawa and Toshiro Mifune."

I was joking when I got these books that they are an example of ultimate humility -- Kurosawa's autobiography is less than 200 small pages, yet the biography that Stuart Galbraith wrote of him is 800 larger pages! ;)

[Sejah Haversh]

Mifune is just, well, awesome. In every role. Though, the older fellow was cooler in TSS, Mifune really stole the show sometimes with his humor and funny walks.