australian anti war protests

[Marcus Telcontar]

remember, australia has 19 million residents


150,000 in melbourne on friday (a workday)

100,000 brisbane
100,000 adelaide
50,000 in other places

and helen just called me from middle of sydney protest. organisers announced 500,000 turned up. she believes it, she's never seen so many people, even during the sydney olympics.

[Xenodoros Stormrider]

I went to watch Daredevil in Hollywood today (It was pretty good). I came out from the theater and there were crowds and crowds of anti-war protestors. Kinda scared me lol

They all walked on Hollywood boulevard and did their thing. I'm not sure how many, but they were a lot. In the thousands I would guess.

[Taylor Millard]

From the AP:

AP Graphics WAR PROTESTS
By ROBERT BARR
Associated Press Writer
LONDON (AP) - Millions of protesters - many of them marching in the capitals of America's traditional allies - demonstrated Saturday against possible U.S. plans to attack Iraq.

The protests that started Friday in Australia continued through the weekend with a massive Sunday demonstration of more than 100,000 people in Sydney. The protests were the biggest in Australia since the Vietnam War three decades ago.

In a global outpouring of anti-war sentiment, Rome claimed the
biggest turnout - 1 million according to police, while organizers claimed three times that figure.

In London, at least 750,000 people demonstrated in what police called the city's largest demonstration ever. In Spain, several million people turned out at anti-war rallies in about 55 cities and towns across the country, with more than 500,000 each attending rallies in Madrid and Barcelona.

Spanish police gauged the Madrid turnout at 660,000. Organizers claimed nearly 2 million people gathered across the nation in one of the biggest demonstrations since the 1975 death of dictator Gen. Francisco Franco.

More than 70,000 people marched in Amsterdam in the largest Netherlands demonstration since anti-nuclear rallies of the 1980s.

Berlin had up to half-a-million people on the streets, and Paris was estimated to have had about 100,000.

In New York, rally organizers estimated the crowd at up to 500,000 people. City police provided no estimate of the crowd, which stretched 20 blocks deep and two blocks wide.

``Peace! Peace! Peace!'' Archbishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa said while leading an ecumenical service near U.N. headquarters. ``Let America listen to the rest of the world - and the rest of the world is saying, 'Give the inspectors time.'''

In Los Angeles, thousands of chanting marchers filled Hollywood Boulevard from curb to curb for four blocks. Organizers estimated the crowd at 100,000, although police put it at 30,000.

London's marchers hoped - in the words of keynote speaker the Rev. Jesse Jackson - to ``turn up the heat'' on Prime Minister Tony Blair, President Bush's staunchest European ally for his tough Iraq policy.

Rome protesters showed their disagreement with Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's support for Bush, while demonstrators in Paris and Berlin backed the skeptical stances of their governments.

``What I would say to Mr. Blair is stop toadying up to the Americans and listen to your own people, us, for once,'' said Elsie Hinks, 77, who marched in London with her husband, Sidney, a retired Church of England priest.

Tommaso Palladini, 56, who traveled from Milan to Rome, said, ``You don't fight terrorism with a preventive war. You fight terrorism by creating more justice in the world.''

Several dozen marchers from Genoa held up pictures of Iraqi artists.

``We're carrying these photos to show the other face of the Iraqi people that the TV doesn't show,'' said Giovanna Marenzana, 38.

Some leaders in German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's government participated in the Berlin protest, which turned the tree-lined boulevard between the Brandenburg Gate and the 19th-century Victory Column into a sea of banners, balloons emblazoned with ``No war in Iraq'' and demonstrators swaying to live music. Police estimated the crowd at between 300,000 and 500,000.

``We Germans in particular have a duty to do everything to ensure that war - above all a war of aggression - never again becomes a legitimate means of policy,'' shouted Friedrich Schorlemmer, a Lutheran pastor and former East German pro-democracy activist.

In the Paris crowd at the Place Denfert-Rochereau, a large American flag bore the black inscription, ``Leave us alone.''

Gerald Lenoir, 41, of Berkeley, Calif., came to Paris to support demonstrators.

``I am here to protest my government's aggression against Iraq,'' he said. ``Iraq does not pose a security threat to the United States and there are no links with al-Qaida.''

In southern France, about 10,000 people demonstrated in Toulouse against the United States, chanting: ``They bomb, they exploit, they pollute, enough of this barbarity.''

Police estimated that 60,000 turned out in Oslo, Norway; 50,000 in bitter cold in Brussels, Belgium; and about 35,000 in frigid Stockholm, Sweden.

About 80,000 marched in Dublin, Irish police said. Crowds were estimated at 60,000 in Seville, Spain; 40,000 in Bern, Switzerland; 30,000 in Glasgow, Scotland; 25,000 in Copenhagen, Denmark; 15,000 in Vienna, Austria; more than 20,000 in Montreal and 15,000 in Toronto; 5,000 in Cape Town and 4,000 in Johannesburg in South Africa; 5,000 in Tokyo; and 2,000 in Dhaka, Bangladesh.

``War is not a solution, war is a problem,'' Czech philosopher Erazim Kohak told about 500 people in Prague, the Czech Republic.

In Mexico City, as many as 10,000 people - including Nobel
Peace Prize laureate Rigoberta Menchu - snarled traffic for blocks before rallying near the heavily guarded U.S. Embassy. Demonstrators beat drums, clutched white balloons and waved handmade signs saying, ``War No, Peace Yes.''

In Baghdad, tens of thousands of Iraqis, many carrying Kalashnikov assault rifles, demonstrated to support leader Saddam Hussein and denounce the United States.

``Our swords are out of their sheaths, ready for battle,'' read one of hundreds of banners carried by marchers along Palestine Street, a broad Baghdad avenue.

In Damascus, the capital of neighboring Syria, an estimated 200,000 protesters chanted anti-U.S. and anti-Israeli slogans while marching to the People's Assembly.

Najjah Attar, a former Syrian cabinet minister, accused Washington of attempting to change the region's map.

``The U.S. wants to encroach upon our own norms, concepts and principles,'' she said in Damascus. ``They are reminding us of the Nazi and fascist times.''

An estimated 2,000 Israelis and Palestinians marched together against war in Tel Aviv on Saturday night.

In Ukraine, some 2,000 people rallied in snowy Kiev's central square. Anti-globalists led a peaceful ``Rock Against War'' protest joined by communists, socialists, Kurds and pacifists.

In divided Cyprus, about 500 Greeks and Turks braved heavy rain to briefly block a British air base runway.

Several thousand protesters in Athens, Greece, unfurled a giant banner across the wall of the Acropolis - ``NATO, U.S. and EU equals War'' - before heading toward the U.S. Embassy.

U.S. Ambassador Thomas Miller said the Greek protesters' indignation was misplaced.

``They should be demonstrating outside the Iraqi embassy,'' he said before the march.

About 900 Puerto Ricans chanted anti-war slogans against the possible invasion of Iraq. One man waved a U.S. flag on which the stars were replaced with skulls.

In Brazil, President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva began efforts to unite South American nations against a possible U.S.-led attack on Iraq. Police estimated 1,500 marchers.

(Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

[Darth Viscera]

Absolutely despicable. To think that such a catastrophy could occur in the information age. These rampaging, obnoxious protestors lack any sort of moral compass; many of the rapscallions act as if they have no degree of humanity at all.

I do hope that Sydney emerged unscathed. When Washington was assailed by these barbarians, they often looted coffee shops and clothing stores, attempted arson and the like....all in the name of "peace". I hope you two came out of it alright :(

[Marcus Telcontar]

despicable??? are you being a idiot? my family you just insulted. it was totally peaceful and orderly as was just about all the peace protests. my wife and her family were out there and i would have been if i didnt have something else i had to do.

read and comphend. 500,000 protestors, maybe more in sydney. 6 million live here. totally peaceful. quite a lot well informed and able to make their own judgements.

i live in a military area as you know. neighbours of mine have already gone to the gulf. none of them believe that they should have gone. NONE. 80% of the area is military and they are all asking why they should go.

our prime minister just blindly parrots whatever line he is given by the bush admin. the aust people are saying, clearly, we'll do our bit if we see the need - but we dont see the need and we sure as hell aint a usa toady. in a place that is traditionally usa friendly, there is growing anger over this, hosility over the impression howard (our prime minister) is dancing to bush's tune only and ignoring what the aust people are saying.. our leaders should be listening to the people they say they serve, now. 750,000 people in a small place like ours sends a clear message, one that should not be ignored.

give us evidence we should worry. and dont parrot the same lines we have rejected. show us the reasons. now. cause right now, we sure dont see the need to send our soldiers, my neigbours to a war that is dubious legality at best. no doubt hussein is an evil man and needs kicking out, but so do a few other dictactors the usa have in their pocket. when are they going? what about israel and it's continued abuse and denial of basic rights to palestinians? not all palestinians are bombers, most just want to feed their families - something sharon seems to want to stop. israel settlers with bulldozers oust arabs from land, israel soldiers and planes strike targets and dont give a damn if they hit innocents. israel has been responsible for thousands of civilians deaths in places like lebanon and the west bank and keeping thousands of palestinians in squalor - so where is the usa coming in protest in this?!?

aust citizens will only support a war if it has un mandate.

[ReaperFett]

Best bit of the news report I saw was when, with marchers as a backdrop, an Iraqi asylum seeker said they were all wrong, and most Iraqi people wanted Saddam out.

[Darth Viscera]

No, I'm not being an idiot. I've seen what those protestor thugs can do when they get all riled up, and I reiterate that I hope that you and your city came out of it unscathed.

With regards to Palestine, you're preaching to the choir. We don't have Israel in our pocket, it's difficult to keep them under control. In 1967, (11 years after we prohibited Israel from going to war over the Suez) 2 days before the 6-day war, we had an intelligence destroyer (U.S.S. Liberty) in the Eastern Mediterannean, monitoring things. The Israelis launched an attack on the Liberty with 2 fighter jets, and strafed her for 2 hours, killing or wounding 200 of our boys. During the attack, Israeli politicians were calling up our president and apologizing for what they claimed was a horrible mistake. They claimed that they believed our destroyer was an Egyptian horse carrier. Our intelligence operations in the area were partially knocked out for a while, and the Israelis got their war without U.S. intervention. If they were under our complete control, then they wouldn't be attacking our fleet to further their own interests. The kicker is, in 36 years, no one has been allowed to report on the incident on TV. The Captain of the destroyer was given the medal of honor, but for the first (and only) time in the history of the award, it wasn't handed out by the President.

[Admiral Lebron]

U.S.S Liberty (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0693/9306019.htm)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Look Darth these people have every right to protest, especially in the U.S we have the freedom to assemble, even Bush didn't say anything wrong with it. Also the protesters have been very peaceful, there have a few exceptions, but most of those people probably are just taking advantatge of the situation. What do you think everybody should be on your side? That to me is wrong, there are going to be different opinions on the issues and calling them morons isn't solving anything.

[ReaperFett]

ANyone would think you were Donald Rumsfeld ;)

[CMJ]

Xenodoros Stormrider, you ran into them too? I was going to get money out of the Bank of America on the corner of Vine and Sunset and ran into the throng gathering. The news said it was around 30 thousand, while event organizers claimed 100K.

It was probably somewhere in the middle.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Usually that is the way it is like in London one report had 500k and another 1 million and it turned out to be 750k.

[Sanis Prent]

Viscera has seen firsthand what these so called "peaceful protestors" have done. There has been quite a large amount of property destruction in DC.

And no amount of statistics will cause my views on this war that we must support to waver in the slightest. It only affirms to me that there are a lot of misguided people out there with an activist streak.

[ReaperFett]

I just want someone to argue with me using the reason "It's not our business". I want to mention WW2 not being our business. I want them to FALTER :evil

[Jedi Master Carr]

The ones in LA, NY and the ones in Europe have been very peacefull, and well DC it isn't the crime capital of the world for nothing. Most of that I am sure are people who are taking advantage of it. Hey I am sure it is no worse than what happened after Maryland won the National title those people nearly burned the campus down, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the same people involved in that are involved in those incididents. And so what if it doesn't change your mind they do have the right to express their opinion, what is the alternative have them put in jail for disagree with the president? And if anybody says yes, then they need to go live in Iraq because that is exactly the type of regime you guys want to destroy.

[Marcus Telcontar]

No, I'm not being an idiot. I've seen what those protestor thugs can do when they get all riled up, and I reiterate that I hope that you and your city came out of it unscathed.

thugs?!?!?!

oh yeah, mums, dads, farmers, students, yuppies, kids. 500,000 all thugs.

of all the things i have seen said, this has been the most stupid. did you not bloody listen at it was all 100% peaceful?!?!?

[Jamel Croko'yn]

I haven't seen a speck of anti-protest in my small city of Sacaremento, not at least in person that is.

[Sanis Prent]

What drives me bats is that more people make an issue of My Lai than they do of the Khmer Rouge. 200 vs 2,000,000. I can't say that everything Americans do is good. It isn't. Neither are the deeds of any other nation. Even Liechtenstein has probably done things in the name of evil, most likely with pointy hats and leiderhosen. But more people were killed in Indochina by "peace" than by "American war". Just some other statistics for you to play with.

[ReaperFett]

Marcus, did you not listen to that fact that he actually lives near a protest that you dont? YOUR views are on the Austrailian one, HIS views are on the DC one.

[Morgan Evanar]

I do hope that Sydney emerged unscathed. When Washington was assailed by these barbarians, they often looted coffee shops and clothing stores, attempted arson and the like....all in the name of "peace". I hope you two came out of it alright

I guess DC is populated by jerks. But for the most part, its been peaceful protest across the globe (even here).

[Sanis Prent]

Thank you, Reaperfett, Voice of Reason.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I wouldn't say jerks just people high as a kite :p DC has a huge drug problem and things can get out of hand as in the case of the Maryland riot that was horrible, they burned down buildings and everything that thing was almost like the LA Riots, if it had last much longer it would have been just like it.

[Sanis Prent]

I belong to "Students for War", and am trying to rouse the silent majority on campus here. I've got flyers printed out and everything. I was going to distribute them around campus Friday, but I've become quite ill with bronchitis or some other thing. At any rate, I have a buddy who lives in my house who is a member of Amnesty International, a group that I have never ever ever been in agreement with. Anyway, he knew I was too ill to go out, and offered to put up my flyers for me. I thought it was a really kind act. I declined, realizing that flyers are taken down on friday anyway...but I appreciated it.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
Marcus, did you not listen to that fact that he actually lives near a protest that you dont? YOUR views are on the Austrailian one, HIS views are on the DC one.

well he sure as hell wasn't making it clear. i have the disticnt impression he was lumping all protestors in the one basket.

[ReaperFett]

But it sounded to me like you did the same.

[Sanis Prent]

It was obviously clear enough that everyone else in this thread got the gist.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Placards spotted among the marchers yesterday:

Somewhere in Texas a village has lost its idiot

Howard is Bush's fridge magnet

Fight plaque not Iraq

War is so 20th century

Stop mad cowboy disease

War begins with Dubya

Axis of Weasels

That's Oil Folks

If it's not UN it's not ON

How Many Lives Per Gallon?

Not in my name, not with my taxes

Weapons of Mass Distraction

[Jedi Master Carr]

It sounded like to me he labeled all protesters the same he warned Marcus to watch out for your town. I think that was a little unfair, maybe he was really angry I don't know.

[Sanis Prent]

"Love Hitler? Then you'll LOVE Saddam!"

:)

[ReaperFett]

That's Oil Folks
Yep, that's the reason Russia says no.







Here's my little slogan:


These people are wrong! We want Saddam out!
An Iraqi who fled Iraq

[Sanis Prent]

To find Iraqi citizens in support of the Baath regime, don't go north (ethnic minorities) and don't go south (religious minorities). Saddam has a hobby of killing them. Ever wonder why we have no fly zones? There's a little strip in the middle, and then, its a toss-up on whether you'll find a Hussein supporter. Generally, they're pointing kalashnikovs at the silent majority. Interesting, that.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Now thats cruel Saadam is no Hitler, not even close. Also I am not sure about those minorities, the Kurds aren't very popular in the middle East ask the Turks they dislike them greatly.

[Sanis Prent]

Not like Hitler? Bullshit.

And you think France, England, and Poland liked the Jews? That's funny.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by Sanis Prent
To find Iraqi citizens in support of the Baath regime, don't go north (ethnic minorities) and don't go south (religious minorities). Saddam has a hobby of killing them. Ever wonder why we have no fly zones? There's a little strip in the middle, and then, its a toss-up on whether you'll find a Hussein supporter. Generally, they're pointing kalashnikovs at the silent majority. Interesting, that.

and yet the world's citizens are not convinced the usa has the right motives in mind doing this.

[ReaperFett]

and yet the world's citizens are not convinced the usa has the right motives in mind doing this.
The worlds citizens read biased Newspapers. They go to slanted websites, and go to opionated TV programmes. Id trust a government on World affairs myself.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Hitler only ruled 10 years and it murderd 12 million in camps and another 50 million in war, Saddam hasn't killed no 10 million. Plus Saadam isn't the madman that Hitler was. To me Saddam is more on the scale of Mussolini and the incompetence of Mussolini as well :p

[Sanis Prent]

Yeah, those 12 year old no fly zones really cramp his style. Ever seen what a Soviet Hind attack gunship can do to a kurdish village? Its like the 4th of July all over again!

Not being as efficient as Hitler doesn't make him less evil than Hitler. Pol Pot only whacked 2 million Cambodians. I'm sure he's a great guy! Certainly not a Hitler or anything!

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
The worlds citizens read biased Newspapers. They go to slanted websites, and go to opionated TV programmes. Id trust a government on World affairs myself.

what???????????

yeah right, all 500,000 people in sydney didnt know what they were doing and why. the neigbours i have going to the gulf right now, they obviously are misinformed when they say they dont want to go. you sound like the lying ----------hat we have for a prime minister. i wouldnt trust a government like ours to tell the truth, not when they have been proven to lie over commitments to the gulf. not when they lie about boat based refugees. not when they are only interested in kissing bush butt.

[Jedi Master Carr]

To me Hitler was eviler, I don't maybe its the mystique, I can't think of anybody in the 20th century who was worst than Hitler, or as evil as him that is why I am basing my opinion on really, To me Saddam is third tier with Mussolini, I would put Pol Pot above him with Stalin. Not sure where to put Bin Laden yet, probably right below Stalin for the moment.

Also I should have commented on the Kurds things the Turks don't like them because they have a problem with them, there are a lot of Kurds in the southern end and they fear that if Iraq falls apart that the Kurds could cause a mess in Turkey. The Kurds have done this type of thing before that they are kind of rebellious it is a lot different from the reasons why the Jews are hated. And actually Poland did like the Jews to a point they were one of the few countries to accept them, that is the reason why there were so many their when Hitler invaded. Also it wasn't the poles who were killing them, their lives weren't much better, a lot of them were in Labor camps building Axis supllies. A better example would be Russia, Austria and France those were the three biggest hotbeds of Anti-Semtism in the 19th and 20th century.

[Darth Viscera]

No destruction in Sydney, well good for you then. I have nothing against non-destructive protests...I just have yet to see one come to my town. When the Anti-Capitalist Convergence (admitted anarchists) started to "rise up", it was actually in their action plan to loot, burn and "snake through the city". It was in their flyers! It was also in their action plan to march on the superior courthouse and do some solidarity thing with the people they had designated to do illegal activities who planned to get arrested. It's not like they were having fun protesting, had a little too much to drink and started getting rowdy.

Don't let the Anti-Capitalist Convergence into Australia, I guess.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Who are they? I still think most of these problems come from those who want to steal and destroy and use protesting as an excuse.

[Sanis Prent]

yeah right, all 500,000 people in sydney didnt know what they were doing and why.

Boy bands have more than 500,000 supporters, so why not? Stupidity and flocks are directly proportional. One million people marched on DC to listen to Louis Farrakhan once. Think about that. And Farrakhan is an ignorant, evil son of a bitch.

Carr, you don't view Saddam on Hitler's scale because his atrocities are vague, and far removed from a western paradigm. Steven Spielberg hasn't made movies about it. It hasn't really penetrated our society...so it might as well be on Mars.

YEEAHH...those poles loved the Jews, except the poles who weren't Jewish. Ever heard of the Einsatzgruppen? Polish volunteers in the SS, killing their Jewish neighbors. Even more common in the Baltic states. Lots of love there. Wasn't just the Germans, it seems! It was indirectly due to the Einsatzgruppen that death camps like Auschwitz were created. Seems that no matter how much you hate somebody, getting your hands dirty in their death takes a toll. Poor poles, indeed.

[ReaperFett]

Anti capitalists are full of smashing up morons. To the extent that they smash up places that ARENT Capitalist, theyre co-ops :)

[Sanis Prent]

ROFL @ Reaper. True there.

What is funny is that why they are protesting. Saddam's regime is "socialist". I use quote marks because he takes revenues from all of his country, divides it by 3 (to hell with the kurdish north and shiite south), divides it by two (to finance his palaces), divides it by two (to fund things for party supporters.)

Thats really progressive socialism, I must say :)

[Marcus Telcontar]

i have not read such a load of rot in a long time. fine. you go have your war. justify it all you want. your not doing it in my name however. bye bye

[Sanis Prent]

The hell if I care? So long as it is done.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That has nothing to do with Sanis, Hitler nearly conquered the world he was responsible for 60 million deaths he effected the entire world, Saddam has come no where near doing any of that and never will he will become a footnote in history, I am sure and he deserves such a place. There has been plenty of tyrants who were just as him and most of them don't get remembered. Sure it doesn't hurt that Saddam doesn't control a large country.
Also you act like I get all my information from TV or something I have a history MA, in French History, and going to get my doctorate, so I do know something about History. About the Pole thing well it wasn't just them, some Jews turned on their own, they did it to survive. To me its interesting that it was ordinary people, give it Poles, Germans whatever who did much of the killing of the Jews it shows how easy it is to fall to evil.

[Sanis Prent]

As Izzard says "Its alright if you kill people, just do it within your own borders. Hitler crossed borders to kill other people...silly man!"

And a major in French history eh? Figures :)

[ReaperFett]

One way Hitler and Hussain are similar. Both had restrictions on their countries. Both ignored them.

[Sanis Prent]

<a href=http://www.studentsforwar.org/hitler2.htm>All this and more in next month's issue of "DUH" Magazine!</a> :)

[Jedieb]

Saddam is a complete and utter scumbag. He's has murdered his citizens, opposition leaders, and under his direction he's waged wars that have resulted in millions of deaths. Yet I still do not support this war. This is a mistake. There is too much significant opposition to the war. The adminstration has not been able to produce the smoking gun that will convince many European leaders and citizens. To deny that the opposition is out there is ludicrous.

All of these demonstrations are proof that there is strong and significant anti-war sentiment around the globe. To label those demonstrating as uniformed or morons is a cop out. You don't have to go far to find former military serviceman who disagree with both war and the administration's foreign policy. Gen. Wesley Clark was on Meet the Press this morning and he critcized Bush and the administration's handling of this entire situation. So is this former NATO Supreme Allied Commander suddenly renounced his citizenship because he dares to criticise the adminstration? Is he a dupe because he believes that a war with Iraq will create new dangers that will outweigh the gains from removing a murderous dictator?

Unlike Desert Storm, ARAB support for this war is almost non-existent. Turkey, despite the promise of 6-20 Billion dollars of aid and loans is dragging its feet may yet refuse to allow significant U.S. troops on its soil. The ARAB league of ministers just announced that will not support the war. Yet, the administration plunges on.

Are there bound to be some problem when you get hundrends of thousands of protesters together and you get them riled up? You betcha, but to label them 'thugs' is skewed. They're protesting for peace after all! I find their intentions more laudable than arm chair warriors who have no intention of ever spilling blood themselves.

Someone wants to support the adminstration and its current policy, then good for you. Organize your own demonstrations, write your congressman and tell him/her that you support the Prez. But don't think for a moment that YOUR opinion is anymore valid or PATRIOTIC than someone who doesn't support the war. The last time I checked, total support of the party in the White House of the man behind the desk ISN'T a prerequisite for citizenship.

I respect the opinions of those that are different than mine. But it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when someone who has no intention of ever picking up a weapon or putting on a uniform rages on for a war they'll never have to personally fight. Even though there's nothing preventing them from doing so than convience. I supported our actions in Afghanistan because there were clearly established ties to terroist actions taken against my country. If it wasn't for my wife, kids, and age I probably would have re-enlisted and served in my second war. If I were in the service still I would go off to serve in this conflict regardless of my views. A soldier's job isn't to pick and choose his battles. He serves because of honor, duty, comraderie, and a sense of obligation. When you get home and you've done your bit then you can sound off.

A war is coming. I'll see if there's anything I can do at my local VA to lend support to soldiers and their family members. But if I think that there's something I can contribute to STOP them from having to go over there and I can stomach some of the tree huggers that are protesting then I'll contribute. Someone can think that this difference of opinion makes them uberAmerican and me a disgrace then so be it. The ramblings of armchair warriors don't keep me awake at night.

[Darth Viscera]

Senator Wayne Allard (sp) just showed up on Fox News Live and said "....Saddam Hussein is like Hitler..."

He's worse than Hitler, really. Saddam is an absolute beast. He's murdered people not only with his republican guard, but with his rifle and his pistol. You didn't think they were just there for ceremonial value, did you?

Hitler was a step down on the evil list from Saddam and Stalin, for instance. The thing is, Saddam actually ASPIRES to be a more evil person. He has a great big library on Josef Stalin, studies him every day, and looks for ways to improve on his terror methods. Saddam has started a new medical facility dedicated solely to pioneering new torture methods. He's WAY, WAY WAY WAY beyond Hitler.

[Sanis Prent]

I never even alluded to not supporting this war as being an unamerican activity. I think its wrong, but thats about it. As for not being willing to support such a war in person...I've weighed this in my mind HEAVILY for 3 years. I've had so many conversations with my family over military service. I want to enlist, but I've been convinced by my family that I must finish my education. I have a year left before I graduate. The moment I do so, I am signing up for the reserves. The thought of supporting a war I'm not willing to personally fight does not agree with me. I'm absolutely ready to make the same sacrifice that any other soldier is ready to make.

I have a close friend that is stationed with B-52 maintenance units at Diego Garcia, as well as a Marine Reservist who is due to be activated within the month.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Sanis Prent
I never even alluded to not supporting this war as being an unamerican activity. I think its wrong, but thats about it. As for not being willing to support such a war in person...I've weighed this in my mind HEAVILY for 3 years. I've had so many conversations with my family over military service. I want to enlist, but I've been convinced by my family that I must finish my education. I have a year left before I graduate. The moment I do so, I am signing up for the reserves. The thought of supporting a war I'm not willing to personally fight does not agree with me. I'm absolutely ready to make the same sacrifice that any other soldier is ready to make.

I have a close friend that is stationed with B-52 maintenance units at Diego Garcia, as well as a Marine Reservist who is due to be activated within the month.

Unfortunately, not everyone thinks the same way. Many, as Jedieb mentioned, cry for war from their couches with remote controls in hand, yet would never even consider putting their own lives on the line to enact the cause that they support. I know far too many people like this, and although I hold my tongue most of time, the attitude never ceases to annoy me.



I honestly don't know what the US should do. Saddam is a tyrant, and eventually, his regime will have to be dealt with in a much more severe manner than UN inspection teams, bombing sorties and a 2 day ground offensive. My gut tells me that he probably is suporting terrorist activities, even if indirectly. The sheer level of opposition around the world to potential US military action is reaching the level of "staggering" at this point, though. From my POV, a war with Iraq, at this point, is going to lead to more problems than good.

That's all I'm saying on this. Have fun in your continued debating.

[Sanis Prent]

The terror link is something that I really disagree on. Maybe not disagree so much as harbor a big dose of skepticism. Its possible, but I don't see the link...so who knows in that regard. The other issues are what polarize my views on Iraq.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Stalin wasn't worse than Hitler, mainly because Stalin had no dreams of World Conquest, he was content of controlling Russia, sure he murdered his own people, but Hitler was the greatest evil of the last 200 years, there could be people of earlier times like Ivan the Terrible and Caligula but they come from different times. Hitler wanted the world to me that is why he was so evil, if he had won WW 2, the Jews would be gone, Blacks would be enslaved, the Slavs would have been sterlized, any only White Anglo-Saxon people would be in Charge that is why Hitler was the evilist man because his goals were just horrible, Stalin's goal was to make Russia better sure he did horrible things to do. I have no idea what Saddam's goal is I doubt its world conquest though, it could be similar to Stalin I imagine.

[Senator Paelotu]

So...hey....who cares then? Lets be friends, right?

Spare me.

[Loki Ahmrah]

I wont pretend to be knowledgeable enough on this issue in order to make well-reasoned statements. What I do know is that for the first time in my life I feel like all that I have done and aspire to do is at risk. Tomorrow I could very well die a gruesome death, as could we all. Do I want this? No. Will I fight in a war? No.

Simple reason behind that is I could never knowingly put myself in a situation which requires me to kill a man. I certainly don't cry for war, I would rather there be peace but don't we all? Neither am I naive; sometimes war is neccessary. Anti-war protestors can protest all they want but unfortunately I see it all as a moot point. There are too many who are working against peace and all those things you hold dear and as long as that is the case then war is unavoidable.

For the first time, I realise how weak a hold I have on my life and it makes me furious and frustrated although equally, I can't find it within me to kill another person. Right now I don't know what to think. Many are crying "war", others "peace". It's drained me to the point of ignorance now, I've finally given up trying to digest all that I see and hear.

[imported_Eve]

I'm with Fig on this. The threat is real and does need to be dealt with. However, I think if we strike, it will cause others to strike back. If we shoot, they'll shoot back, and they'll shoot nukes and chemicals.

If you say he has to be dealt with, then why not now? I don't know why. I'm sick and tired of the UN not holding up to resolutions. I'm sick of the anti-American sentiment, after all America has been through with everyone. It's like not supporting your long-time pal when he needs it the most. Friends don't always see eye-to-eye, but we have each other's back when it's right. And everyone knows Sadaam is SO wrong.

But, in the interests of doing things RIGHT, we need to wait. Wait for the absolution our friends need. But I worry when that "smoking gun" surfaces, if others will still say they need to see more. This whole thing stinks.

I am reminded by a bit of fortune telling; Nostradamous. He named three anti-christs. They believe he meant Napoleon, Hitler, and a third man in a blue turban (who was unnamed). He foretold a third world war, where by the end of it, only 10% of the population would be left, and that third world war was predicted to happen right about now.

That's scary.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don't believe in Notradamas people have read so much into his predictions half of them don't say what they say they do, I just don't believe people can predict the future its so unpredictable.

[JonathanLB]

"Absolutely despicable. To think that such a catastrophy could occur in the information age. These rampaging, obnoxious protestors lack any sort of moral compass; many of the rapscallions act as if they have no degree of humanity at all."

I agree with that. It's pathetic.

I don't give a crap what a bunch of idiotic fools in France think of anything, either. I couldn't possible have less respect for any group of people than those IDIOTS in France. They should sit around, shutup, and go about their own business as they always do because they forfeit their right to a national opinion when they let the Germans storm into their country unhindered. They are spineless pieces of filth beneath our boots. No American gives a flying crap what those morons think about anything.

People have the right to protest, in countries outside of France (fools), but that doesn't make them smart or well informed. Frankly, it makes them seem rather idiotic. How do we preserve peace in this world with a dictator like Saddam in power? We have tried reasoning with them, we are continuing inspections, but it isn't doing any good at all. I watched the ENTIRE speech Blix gave to the U.N. Security Council and he was covering up for the fact that they are moving their crap around, not showing sufficient proof of destruction of their weapons, and not cooperating quickly enough. There is still time for Iraq to avoid war, but the burden is on them now. Not us.

If they defy us for another two weeks, we'll be in their capital and it'll be end game within a month. I don't believe in war except as a last resort, but I also don't believe in standing by and letting terrorism overrun our world. Iraq supports terrorists. It is a rogue, terrorist nation. It must be stopped, either peacefully, which is what I prefer, or through war if absolutely necessary. It seems that war is becoming even more necessary.

The rest of the countries in the world besides a few good allies are just acting in their own self-interest (I'm sure this will inspire some idiotic comments like, "THE U.S. IS ACTING SELFISHLY, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!" but whatever). They have no concern for the fact that we, as a civilized nation, cannot stand around and let people like Saddam doom our world. The time has come to take action against any country that opposes the United States and freedom. They must be stopped. We don't have the world's most powerful army for nothing.

We have given Iraq every opportunity now to disarm and prove their compliance and on every occassion they have acted slowly, not cooperatively enough, and are clearly stalling.

[Senator Paelotu]

Before the flames intensify, I would like to disavow any support of Mr. Bowen's previous post. His extreme right-wing views, while also in accordance with my pro-war stance, are xenophobic and scary, and I would much prefer that you take his post with a grain of salt, far removed as possible from what I have said or what I might say.

Thank you, that is all.

[Hadrian Invicta]

Since when do we rank people on their evilness or vileness. What makes Hitler any worse than Dalhmer, the fact that he convinced an entire contintent to do his crimes for him. The fact that Britain and France forced Germany into ruin after WWI, so that the German people were looking for a scapegoat.

Oh but how can we forget Stalin, he wiped out infinitely more people than Hitler, but he was our ally in WWII so he wasn't nearly as evil as Hitler.

Pol Pot simply didn't have the resources to do as good of a job as Hitler, so that makes him less evil.

Kim Peyong or however the freak you spell it in N. Korea is building weapons of mass destruction building up troops, but he's not evil.

Mao and Communist China. WWII Japan, Caesar Nero. Andrew Jackson, Colonial Britain, France, Belgium, Germany, Spain all of freaking europe.

I mean what makes any of these regimes or people any less evil or more evil. They still took human life without remorse, without conscience, without mercy. The fact that they can convince other evil people to fall in line with them?

I'm against the war, not because I dont' think Sadam is an evil man or that he isn't oppressing his people, but because I'm tired of American's dying for the rest of this forsaken hell-hole we call earth. I'm tired of us flying missions over the Balkans, because Europe is too damn chicken <smallfont color=#FFFF00>-Censored-</smallfont> to deal with their own problems, I'm tired of Americans dying in Mogadishu for somebody who'd probably just stab them in the back if they thought they could get away with it. I'm tired of my Tax dollars going to some third-world country were the freaking leader lives like a damned rock-star and his people starve. I'm tired of replaying the night when I had to watch one of my best friends and my roommates fiancee say good-bye to all of us with that deer in the head-lights look in his eyes because theirs some freaking psychopath living half way around the world who kills his own people. Well I say to hell w/ them, to hell w/ the Middle-East. Europe, Australia, Asia. Do whatever you want to each other, turn your half of the world into a damned nuclear wasteland for all I care. I'd just as soon know that my friend didn't have to go fight and perhaps die for someone who really doesn't give a rat's <smallfont color={hovercolor}>-Censored-</smallfont> about him. Damnit!

We sit here and argue about what's right and what's wrong like we are some kind of enlightened society, who's opinions and thoughts on the world in general are so much greater than that of societies. I don't know I just thought this was a place to RP, escape the bull <smallfont color=#FFFF00>-Censored-</smallfont> going on in the world around us. Maybe talk about films, talk about sports, talk about distractions from the horrors the real world offers us. What the hell do we know? I don't know anything other than I'm tired of seeing my gov't try to justify fighting somebody elses war. I'm tired of seeing other countries trying to tell my country what to do. I'm tired of the US pouring money into the UN, NATO and other inane alliances. I'm tired of knowing that we spend more feeding ungrateful wretches in some hell forsaken dirt track half way across teh world, when i can walk out my door and see homeless people rummaging through the trash bin outside my apartment.

I don't really know what the point of my post was except maybe to just blow steam about knowing my friend has to go fight in a war he shouldn't have to be involved in, but being brave enough to do his duty. To follow through with the commitment's he made to serve his nation. Wishing that I didn't have a disease that won't allow me to go serve as well. Leaving me to wonder if my balls would have been big enough to go when I got that phone call.

[Senator Paelotu]

I hate that it happens. I hate that I'm saying goodbye to friends, and I hope to God that it isn't a final goodbye. But I know that they're going over there, to keep things from escalating to the point where a lot more of us have to. I've never ever believed in a policy of isolationism, no matter how crappy some of these global spats get. I think staying out of these things has a track record of showing that evil will fester and grow, just like an infection. Would I rather fight a pre-emptive offensive war against an enemy that is a local threat, with the possibility of being far more at a later date, or would I rather leave them alone, hope they go away, and possibly deal with fighting on the defensive, years from now? Why is it wrong to want to act?

[Nasseeri Haalleerraa]

I would like for this to be as bloodless as possible. I detest the fact that innocents on both sides will die from this stupidity.

Yes, Saddam has to be dealt with and it should have been done before now. I doubt that it will but hopefully we might learn our lesson about diddling in other counties politics. Im red, white and blue all the way but I'll be the first to say that I think our government is one of the most crooked there is and that we need to stop policing the rest of the world. Lets take care of ourselves, first.

To Marcus and all the other of thousands who say "Leave us alone", "USA, go home", etc......Im all for that. Please, go ahead and call on your neighbors and friends when this shyte hits home and its in your own backyard...literally.

Dont call us....we'll call you.

[Senator Paelotu]

I couldn't be more against that. When the fit does hit the shan, and that isolationism isn't working anymore, we've just made it that much tougher on ourselves.

[Darth Turbogeek]

To Marcus and all the other of thousands who say "Leave us alone", "USA, go home", etc......Im all for that. Please, go ahead and call on your neighbors and friends when this shyte hits home and its in your own backyard...literally.


if its justified, aussies will be the first there. like we always have been since 1901 - and even when it is dubious. Go on, just look at when australia turned up for each war this century, if we got asked. or if we saw the need.

it must say one hell of a lot when australians, traditionally the first ones there if britian or the usa calls, dont want to go this time around. hello? are you listening?

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Loki Ahmrah
For the first time, I realise how weak a hold I have on my life and it makes me furious and frustrated although equally, I can't find it within me to kill another person. Right now I don't know what to think. Many are crying "war", others "peace". It's drained me to the point of ignorance now, I've finally given up trying to digest all that I see and hear.

I know just how you feel...helpless, to a degree. I'd rather that I were actually involved in these things to some small degree than suffer the indignance of having to watch it all on FNL day after day and complain about it. For years I've been toying with the idea of joining the army, seeing if they could use my skills in computers or something. I'd like to, one day.

[Senator Paelotu]

Marcus, watch the profanity, veiled as it may be. You've been warned.

[Marcus Telcontar]

i will not withdraw that remark, nor apologise. i'm mad some idiot yank who has no clue has the termerity of posting that and i aint going to hide it.

listen nasserri whomever you are. we have islamic terroists in our backyard, we had bali for god's sake on our doorstep, we have seem terrorism, seem over 100 aussies come home as charred remains and hundreds more come home burnt and injured. we go on peacekeeping, we go and help the usa or britain, we've shed lots of blood for causes and freedom. we know damn well what it's like to see others go overseas and die. give us the cause, give the justification, we'll be there.

does it not clue you in that a close tradional ally, it's people are marching in unprecidented numbers? that this is the first thing that aussies are balking at? for crying out loud, our sas are in afghanistan and whom else knows where, fighting this war on terror.

nasseerri, if that's the type of appreciation the usa is going to give for a country whom has sent it's sons and daughters on behalf of the usa in korea, vietnam, bosnia, afghanistan, iraq (and even my neigbours have already gone to the gulf)..... gee, hope i never see what you do if we really offend you. ignorant yank you are.

[Senator Paelotu]

Your grievance is noted, but it won't excuse such a thing. Keep it from happening again please.

[Darth Viscera]

Could you not toss that term about, please? It's semi-derogatory to people who don't actually come from north of mason-dixon. Heck, I know I wouldn't like to be called a yank, yankee or damnyankee, seeing as how I'm from Texas. How would you like it if I came up with a derogatory term for a kiwi, and insisted on calling all aussies and kiwis by that term because I could perceive no difference between them?

[Zakatiel Rhinehart]

I have nothing new or take away from this thread, except my own view points on the War.

I support this war. I have school friends from Highschool going off to War, some in the Marines, and some in the Army. Like Marcus, I live in a Military Town, with two of the largest military bases on the west coast within 10 miles of my house (Fort Lewis, and McCord Airforce Base), and the Shipyards which is home to one or two of our Aircraft Carriers and nearly a dozen support ships. (including a good majority of our Pacific Nuke Sub Fleet)

Yet, unlike the Australians, it seems most of the troops around here support a war. Fort Lewis is home to the medium combat brigade. Trained for inner city fighting. The people who have been stationed here are going to be the main strike force when it comes to attacking the cities. And from what I heard, the troops see this attack as something they must do.

[Loki Ahmrah]

(Stands at the centre of the tempest, aloof and alone.)

It's quite peaceful here. Like the eye of a storm.

[JediBoricua]

I have to agree with Marcus here.

Because the French, the Russian, the Germans or the Aussies don't support the US in this skirmish they should rot in their own stupidity. What a nice remark. Then you ask why so many places are hotbeds for anti-americanism.

If history is any indicator, the world will aid the US in a military confrotantion with a just cause. In 91 there was a just cause, Saddam invaded a sovereign state. More than a 100 countries helped the US in any way they could. On WWII, not only did the marines landed on France, but also the Canadians and the English, with the aid from the French Ressistance. Never forget that.

750,000 marching in Sydney, Millions in Europe and other places where US sentiment is traditionally good, are not numbers to be ignored or typecasted as antiamerican ignorants. It is a clear indicator that the world does not see the urgency in attacking Iraq, especially if there is no undeniable proof. And most of these countries know terrorism, as Marcus pointed out, and have faced it far longer than the US has. Why the rush? What harm could there be to wait until inspections are finished and we have a clear picture of what Saddam has and doesn't have.

Just because you have aided countries in the past, or given them aid when you thought it necessary, does that make them mercenaries to your cause. Each country is sovereign and has a right to decide whether to support a war or not.

[Sanis Prent]

Which is precisely why I think we should act independantly of this lackluster reception. Its their decision to get on the bus or not, and whether or not international support is forthcoming, I believe this attack must be carried out. The only thing that will convince me otherwise is immediate and total compliance from Baghdad. The burden of proof is on their shoulders, and has not been met. America has more than enough military infrastructure to get the job done. We'd appreciate support on this from our global neighbors, but it isn't required.

[JediBoricua]

But if you do not have international approval, what differenciates the US from Saddam invading Kuwait in '91? You are invading a sovereign country (justly or not), member of the UN, out of your own prerrogative. It is a dangerous move that could have catastrophics consequences.

Go alone and you will make the case for all the terrorist organizations. You will prove their points and you will give them real evidence of 'America's tyrranny in the world'. Terrorism attacks will grow exponientally and the Anti-American sentiment would grow even more.

[Jedieb]

I am an American. While I am proud of my country I don't delude myself that my government has always acted honorably and correctly toward other nations or even its OWN citizens. I recognize that there are LEGITIMATE reasons for why many people have strong anti-American sentiments. Will Saddam EVER do anything worse to a Pawnee Indian than the U.S. government? Will a farmer in Laos who had his entire family wiped out in an illegal Napalm attack that the the U.S. lied about commiting think Saddam 'needs' to be taken care of right now? We act sometimes as if these "evil" regimes and leaders are our polar opposites. That they do things that our government never could or never has. How many South American and African despots rose to power because of the CIA? How did Mobutu get to power? During those 3 decades of brutal rule where was our indignation? How many despots did we give a free pass to because they were spouting the anti-communist rhetoric we wanted to hear? After Saddam, who's next? Are we going to keep picking and choosing until the next occupant of the White House changes his mind?

Going at this war alone will feed ant-American sentiment. Much of that sentiment was well earned in the first place. It's not simply a case of "America Envy." Put a different party in the oval office or a more moderate Republican and we're not even having this discussion! Ralph Nader, a great job of organizing absentee ballots by Florida Republicans, and confused seniors in Palm Beach could very well be some of the main reasons we're in this situation. Are those reasons enough for us to embark on an unpopular war without the support of the U.N.?

[Jedi Master Carr]

I agree with you Jedieb, if we must go to war why not wait and try to get France and Russia on our side, its foolish to go in alone for the reasons to said. Here is something interesting, the French people who are against it 87%, 70% say the reason why they are against it is because of the way the US has conducted themselves, so if we had not been so arrogant and acting like you are either with or against bull crap I bet France and the other European nations would have already be on the US side. I think this is our government's fault, comments like old Europe and stuff like that is causing most of the problems.

[MasterPewter]

jdei master carr stated --" Hitler nearly conquered the world he was responsible for 60 million deaths he effected the entire world,"

What if he had small pox, anthrax, and other WMDs that number could easily have doubled.

[Morgan Evanar]

The burden of proof is on their shoulders, and has not been met.

My biggest problem is that we aren't using the mainstay concept that our justice system was founded on: Innocent until proven guilty.

The burden of proof lies in the hands of the inspectors.


jdei master carr stated --" Hitler nearly conquered the world he was responsible for 60 million deaths he effected the entire world,"

What if he had small pox, anthrax, and other WMDs that number could easily have doubled.

Hitler had the skilled German workforce behind him, along with Germany's massive and established industrial backbone. Sadamn doesn't have anything remotely comparable, and furthermore, he has the most powerful-per capitia army sitting right next to him (Isreal).

Doing anything agressive outside his own borders is suicide.

[Sanis Prent]

Please read 1441 before you try to put Iraq to that standard. The burden of proof is written in as explicitly on their hands. There is only so much inspectors can do, be there 100 or 100,000 in Iraq. If their government is not forthcoming, it is a wasted effort.

I am not willing to let the whims of the mob determine what I think is right. You can quote global approval percentages and protestor numbers until you're blue in the face, and it will change nothing. If Saddam's regime is not forthcoming in offering their assistance, then we have no choice in this manner but to act and to do so quickly. Spinning our wheels in diplomatic mud is getting us nowhere but stuck. We've tried diplomacy for 12 years. Saddam is playing us all for fools. He is compelling us to send our troops to force him to comply. His inaction demands our action, and it makes me furious that it looks like it is coming down to war. I do not want war. I repeat, I do not want war. I repeat, I do not want war. But it is looking more and more to be necessary. We cannot appease this dictator. Unless an act of God delivers us from this (I pray every day for a quick, nonviolent solution), then war, however unwanted it is by every sane and reasonable person on planet earth, is now necessary.

That makes me sick to my stomach and furious at once. To prevent more and more murders of Saddam's disenfranchised ethnic and religious minorities, we must now risk our mothers and fathers, our brothers and sisters, and our sons and daughters. I have not lost a friend or loved one in the line of duty, and I pray I never do. But I've been on the opposite side of the coin, and I've seen those close to me have their lives erased in senseless murder. Ask a Kurdsman or a Shiite if they can tell you a similar story. No doubt they can as well. That is the ultimate injustice. Regardless of Saddam's ability or inability to wage conventional or terror war on his foreign neighbors or on us, he has unprecedented ability, compunction, and history of doing so within his own borders.

Why do we fight? To me, that is why. And as much as I pray for a nonviolent end, that is a cause worth fighting for.

[Jedi Master Carr]

And if Hitler had a nuclear bomb (he was working on it) he would have dropped it on England or Russia and the death toll would have been even higher.
About Iraq, you see that is my problem if we are going to war because we are trying to prevent Saddam for killing his own people that isn't a good enough reason for me because we are then being hypocrites their are a dozen leaders probably doing this now, mostly in Africa (Sudan, the Congo region both come to mind) of course not to mention China (I am sure they still kill certain minorities, religions and ethinc maybe not a large scale). So don't use that as a reason, if you could prove he is a threat to us or the Saudis that is different, and so far I have seen no proof of that.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by JonathanLB
they forfeit their right to a national opinion when they let the Germans storm into their country unhindered.

That is just pathetic. What an utterly dumb thing to say.

[Dutchy]

BTW, I'm against a war based on the current results, but would support it with the smoking gun and a UN approval. Of course this world would without a doubt be a better place without Saddam, but right now he doesn't seem the world's biggest threat. Or, like George Dubya said: "His removal is your liberation". That seems exaggerated, to say the least.

[Sanis Prent]

Carr, I've talked to you about this before. Its not just the act, but also the capacity for future acts, and the willingness to carry them out. China, while no human rights boyscout, is making attempts to become more progressive. That is to say, they are willing to change this trend. It isn't speedy, but it is forthcoming. There is no nation out there with the means, the track record, and the compunction for these acts more notably outstanding than Iraq. They aren't the only violators in this respect, but they are the most severe offenders.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah it was. I have to defend the French there. Realize the French population were defetist. I said this before France had the second highest death toll in WW 1 only Germany had more and France had a smaller population at the time which really meant that France suffered worst. So the popualtion was threw with war they saw too many of their friends and family die which is a reasonable reason they wouldn't want to fight another war. Second the French Army were still fighting tactics like WW 1 like most of Europe (it took everybody a while to catch up to Germany) while Germany was fighting a new style of warfare the French army was then butchered in western France, then two leaders Petin, and President Levy decided to give up they knew they were going to lose, still they were traitors because they coroporated with the Germans and lost their lives because of that in 46. Now if DeGaulle was in Charge France would have thought to the bitter end.

[CMJ]

Is it just me or do these boards sometimes resemble a gaggle of drag queens fighting tooth-and-nail for an extra inch of real estate before the make-up mirror?

Maybe it's just me, carry on. ;)

[Zakatiel Rhinehart]

I honestly doubt that the french, even fighting to the bitter end, would of slowed the German War Machine for more then a day or two. This was posted as a joke in Meras, but it fits now:
http://meras.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6349

Back to the War. I kid you not, this is a war for oil. What other choice do we have? We drive cars which chug gas like the Irish chug beer on St. Patricks Day.

But you want to know what I see happening. As soon as we, as the U.S. "Liberate" Iraq, all the other countries which where crying Anti-War, will suddenly pop up and believe that they are entitled to some of the Oil. I call it now, for it will happen.

(Side Note: The Iraqi Army is one of the largest and most powerful in the middle east. I remember watching a program about Desert Strom in History class in High School. I remember one of the Generals saying something along the lines of how worried he was about the Iraqi Army.
Only reason we did so good was because we managed to destroy the supply lines to the forward troops. When our own troops reached the Iraqi Army, they where half-starved and hella thristy, and many surrendered without a fight.)

[Sanis Prent]

You're a sheep if you still think this war is about oil. I'm tired of hearing it.

[Admiral Lebron]

ROFLMAO.

Nice jokes!

[imported_Eve]

One: Get over the Florida vote. That battle is lost. Speaking about it won't turn the clocks back and get you good ol' Gore to deal with the big issues.

Two: Don't discuss this if you can't take a difference of opinion. People don't always agree, and that's the name of democracy. Don't walk out in anger; call people stupid or idiotic. This whole issue is about an evil dictator. To claim you're right, and those who differ in opinion are idiots, is acting in time with the same thing that you hate. More education, a degree, or even military service under your belt still makes you no more of an authority than the citizen next to you. We all pay taxes, and we'll all be hurt if things go wrong.

If you can't even talk about this without throwing childish remarks down, then how can you possibly make a decision about war?

K now...

If we do this war, we have to do it right. We need support from others. We can't strike first. We can't start this thing. We can't be a paranoid nation, and I think that's alot of what this is. I believe that Sadaam is evil, but if we're going to fight him, we have to wait for him to make a move. If he is going to do ANY of the things we THINK he is going to do, the whole world will jump so far down his throat. We have to wait, or we'll end up being the villian.

[Diego Van Derveld]

I'd rather people think that we seem the villain, than sit on our thumbs and wait for an attack to hit us. To even think that we should offer ourselves up as sacrificial lambs like that is mind-boggling. I value lives higher on my totem pole than world opinion.

[Darth Viscera]

Definitely, we can't let Saddam persist. We have to be preemptive. This guy is paying "martyrs" $25000 U.S. to blow themselves up in Tel Aviv, what makes you think he couldn't tell them, "Change of plans, blow yourselves up in Chicago instead"? He's flaunting the fact that he's the father of all terrorists. He invited reporters to witness the handing out of those big fat checks to the families of the suicide bombers. These suicide bombers are not going to limit themselves to Israel for long, mark my words.

He's already funding mass acts of terror, hence he is a terrorist, so we should stick to our guns, do what Bush basically said we would do in September of 2001, and bring him to justice.

There is no sane excuse for not taking out Saddam. Either we take him out, or we continue dying. How many MORE thousands of Americans have to be killed by terrorists before we get serious on this? Honestly, France, Belgium, Russia and Germany seem intent on the belief that it's okay if we're all killed, so long as we don't do anything about it.

We have the right to self-defense.

[Admiral Lebron]

Can't have a war... not tomorrow at least. Snowed in. :(

[Darth23]

I can get over the Florida vote - even though I love in Jeb-land.

I can't get over the fact thart even with Florida, Dubya dodnt' get the most votes.

For 8 fricken years the right wingers yelled and screamed about how Clinton didn't get more than 50% of the vote.

Maybe he didn't, but at least he got more votes than any other candidate running. :p


BTW. For some pics of yesterday's demos see the link below. :D


http://www.coruscantcity.net/board/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=007299

Why did the US put the Kuaiti Royal Family back into power after Gulf War I?
Oil

Why does the US keep supporting the Saudi royal family?
Oil

Why does the US want to invade Iraq, a country that MIGHT be tryignto get nukes, while insisting on a diplomatic solution in dealing with North Korea?
Oil.

It IS mostly an oil thing but there ARE Other Reasons (http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/3/judis-j.html).

-------------
Btw,

A lot of people at the protests this weekend were families of soldiers in the region right now, and also veterans.

[Diego Van Derveld]

If it were truly about oil, don't you think that we would've installed something a bit more american-friendly than an oligopoly oil cartel that can set prices in their region to a large degree? Don't you find that a bit odd? I mean, we could have been a helluva lot more active in the petroleum business down there, and vested an interest in how they determine prices.

That conspiracy theory is decrepit and stale. Next time, make up something more entertaining, like Branch Davidians and laser beams or something. If I'm going to waste my time reading this tripe, I want a laugh.

[Darth Viscera]

Why are you sore at the Kuwaiti Royal family? Their literacy rate is almost at the level of Jordan, they have a nice economy (at least 44% of their imports come from western countries, with another 5% coming from China), 1 kuwaiti dinar is worth $3.30, there's 1 television for every 2.5 kuwaitis, 1 in 11 Kuwaitis surfs the net, etc. With such an economy, it looks as though they're on their way to natural domestic reform. Heck, they've only been on their own for 42 years, don't mislabel them and toss them in the garbage bin yet.

[Darth Viscera]

I get the distinct feeling that Branch Davidians armed with laser rifles and funded by Michael Jackson are working with the CIA to seize all oil fields in the Middle East, and eventually bring them under the control of the Vatican, which is acting in collusion with the FBI as per the requirements of a court sentencing against a Catholic priest.

tell no one.

[Diego Van Derveld]

(quickly makes tin foil hat, in terror) :uhoh :lol

[Daiquiri Van-Derveld]

Let me rephrase some things, please.

I admit, after re-reading, that I made it sound as if Austraila (in the past) had never done anything and that wasnt how I meant it. My apologies to you, Marcus.

Bali was a terrible tragedy and my heart went out to the people there. However, Bali is not Austraila. I know that if some madman somewhere in this world took offense to something Austraila had done in the past and sent jet planes nose diving into the Sydney Opera house, those protest signs would tossed down and a different tune would be sung. That would be in your backyard.

Perhaps that Ive lived through more of this than you have (forum posters in general), have listened and watched more Anti-Americanism than Ive cared to, watched the American flag burn in the hands of those who want the same thing we have - freedom............I know most of it is aimed at the government and not the citizens and some of it is justifiable. I still believe that we have meddled too often in others' business.

I think what people from other countries dont understand is this: all too easily these acts of terrorism could happen to them. Once it has escalated for them to the point it has for America, who do you think they will call on for help? I dont say that arrogantly, I say it from past history.

I know this matter has to be resolved. I also know that no matter how long the inspectors search, they wont find half of what theyre looking for. I also know that given half a chance (or less), Saddam will strike at us again on American soil.

Im truly torn between wanting to take most of the Middle East out or locking up the front door. I guess the smart thing to do would be what Eve (and a couple others) said.......dont attack right now but give Saddam enough rope to hang himself. He will and I'll bet it wont take long. Once he does, no more Mr. Nice Guy and I dont care what the rest of the world thinks.

btw.........:wave Im the 'idiot Yank'

[Jedi Master Carr]

I've gotten to the point, where I give up arguing about it really, I think that we can just agree to disagree right now, and wait to see what happens, I don't want to get into anymore arguments about it.