Can we, or Can't We: Midi-Chlorian Questions/Debate

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

Ok first of all, I got 2 major questions which have been bothering me for some time, I have my own answers, but I wanted to ask the group before I started playing Mad Doctor. My answers are my own views, and many of you will not agree with them. So, how bout a simple yes or no and explanation instead of insults like some of you enjoy doing.
(These are based off my views on how a Jedi/Sith use the force, which will be posted again at the very bottom.)

1.) is it possible to create a virus which targets Midi-Chlorians?

Yes, the Midi-Clorian is a life form inside you, it is a helpful parasite, like the Bacteria in your stomach. If it is alive, then something can kill it Pulling out some contaminated or broken Sith Midi's, you alter them, and mutate them to hunt down and attack other Midi's of a lightsider. Chemical Balance would be different*. The Midi-Virus would not survive in the air, and not effect other Sith, it would have to be injected or consumed. I also believe this would be short term (Month or so) for the Midi's would slowly return, with defenses against the Midi-Virus and just as strong as before. (See the RP element?)

2.) Is it possible to extract Midi-Chlorians from a enemies or allies body?

Yes, but the stolen/borrowed Midi's would be slowly rejected from the hosts body. They will be putting wild elephants into a colder climate to run wild. They might survive for awhile, but would eventually die. Same as the Midi's. But for that while, you will get a Force Boost. Your force powers would jump off the scale. But this will be followed by a drain. As your normal force power struggles to survive the energy void the dying Midi's would create. Like using High octane Gasoline for a month, then switching to the cheap stuff. The person you stole, or borrowed the energy from would slowly regain the powers as the Midi's inside would respawn to the natural balance of you and the Midi's.

My views on the Force, Short version

Lightsiders befriend the force(midi's), they work with it.
Darksiders make the Force(midi's) a slave, and force it to work.

This explains why Darksiders can access the force faster, they "Beat" the force to go.

Lightsiders are more powerful, they might need to "explain" or coax the midi's into helping. Which would take longer, but have a more powerful result.

I.E. A slave forced to fight under penalty of pain/death
A Soilder fighting to save his family/Friends

(*Chemicals change in the bodies of every most living things in reponse to their surroundings, a Lightsider Midi would be alot differnt the a DarkSider Midi, so you teach them to hunt out the Chemical Balance. Dark Siders who are close to the light might be effected a bit, or Lightsider who walk the line of the Dark might have a less severe force reduction.)

Note: I am not Mr. Chemical/Biology Wiz, I put most of this together from what I read on the backs of Ceral boxes and my own Creative Questioning, Genius. If I am wrong in the facts, please point them out so I might correct them.

[Sanis Prent]

I'm gonna have to say no, based on the summary glance-over I've given this. Too many stretches of theoretical science, IMO.

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

But, ain't Star Wars all theoretical? Repulsar lifts, Hyperdrives, Cloaking? It might not be possible in our universe, but it might be possible in the Star Wars universe. Midi's are nothing more then a parasite! Power given by a Parasite! IT CRACKS ME UP!!!
Thanks for the opinion though, if this falls through, I will just think up another evil plot of... cookie dough or something.

[Helenias Evenstar]

Your idea might work if midichloridians are accepted. But I for one do not - the single point of canon I refuse to have anything to do with. What on earth was Lucas doing when he came up with that?

Thence, if someone tried something like you have described, I would risk anger by ignoring it.

[Loki Ahmrah]

I don't pay much heed to the midi-chlorian concept and I don't like the idea of extracting midi-chlorians for a Force boost; it reminds me too much of "Liquid Schwartz".

However, Taro and I have been considering the implementation of a virus to counter the effects of or even kill midi-chlorians in Idol's quest for galactic domination. :)

[Oriadin]

I cant see any reason why the first one couldnt be possible actually.

The second one though, I have doubts about. Even if you could remove Midi-Chlorians and you could inject it into someone else, it wouldnt make your force powers 'jump of the scale'. I think Midi-Chlorians are only there to determine your potential. How receptive you are to the force only. Whether you are a Sith or a Jedi you still need training in how to use the force. Anakin had a larger Midi-Chlorian count than Master Yoda but that didnt make him better than Yoda. It only meant he had the potential to be better. He still needed training and guidence in how to do so. That would take years and years and years so there would be little point in injecting it.

[Vampyre Dalamar]

The Vampyre suck out the Mediclorens but we assume they regenerate like the blood supply. A surge in power for us is also momentary but fade's with time. Thus the need for constant hunting for food. For us the more powerful the person is in the force. The more likely we are to hunt them hence making a vampyre's life somewhat of a challenge just to eat:smokin

As for plausible this is all made up so anything is plausible with a good writer. But as for usable I would say pretty much no one would go for it. You Zapping them and taking away the force would be tantamout to Maiming some. But hey if you want that kind of effect Get you a gaggle of Ysalimiry. Hope I spelled that right. :zzz Doh fell asleep at the comp again.....

[Loki Ahmrah]

If Vampire-folk have this inherant ability to gain strength from feeding from others, thus weakening them until their midi-chlorians regenerate then I will only accept that if you guys grow weaker in both stength and the Force until you feed once more. But I'm rather skeptical about the whole vampire concept in Star Wars if the truth be known, plus I hate the spelling "vampyre". :p

[ReaperFett]

My views:


1.) is it possible to create a virus which targets Midi-Chlorians?
No. If you could target them, the Jedi could also do transplants and make Jedi. But they dont. So no :)


2.) Is it possible to extract Midi-Chlorians from a enemies or allies body?
No. And they would be useless.



And if Vampires can gain from drinking it, that is pure unfair. I dont see Vampires acting weaker pre-suck. So by that same thing, all my characters are actually PEEEEEEEWANGUI, which means smelling anyone gives them super strength.

[Alana Stormcloud]

Gives Loki a cookie :p LOL Yes we do grow weaker when we have not fed hence the constant need to hunt for food. As with any human or char. Everyone needs food to be strong. But we also base of Sith magic so that does not weaken, just the Vampire :) side of our char. Also I know a lot of people do not like vamps in star wars but there are vamps in star wars :) As well as demons and other such creatures. But that’s neither here nor there. As for a virus that attacks, well I just don't think anyone would go for it. It is an interesting idea though.... We do not become ultra powerful when we take the medicloriens "sp?" We thrive off of them...

[Evil Hobgoblin]

"I've always seen midi-chlorians as a litmus test for Force potential." Someone said that, and I quite liked the phrasing because it explains exactly what I think midi-chlorians are and what they're good for without making them the entire basis of the Force. Remember, the Force is a vast field of energy; "life creates it, makes it grow." It is in everyone and everything, from rocks to trees and land to spaceships. Midi-chlorians aren't present in everything, but are present in particularly strong Force-sensitive beings. A stronger concentration of the Force will have more MCs adapting more easily to it than a weak concentration. They are, it seems, a life form that uses Force energy as a feeding supply.

Ergo killing MCs would only have the effect of hiding a person's Force potential from biological researchers. Given my line of reasoning, it is also logical to assume that MCs have an innate protection against things that try to break them down within their own environment, but removing them from that environment will kill them quickly, making transfusions both ineffective and pointless.

Also, this line of reasoning does support vampiric feeding, but only for sustenance and not for gains in power.

(Disclaimer: these are only my opinions and have no bearing on the RP as a whole. You are free to disagree with them, just as I am free to call you a doody-head if you do.)

[Daiquiri Van-Derveld]

Midi's live in the cells of one's body, correct? If we can extract, white and red blood cells for medical purposes then why cant midi's be extracted from the cell?

I think it would be a long, slow process but it could be done, imo.

[Silus Xilarian]

1) the way I interperated midi chlorians, as related to the force, was this......

Qui Gonn said the Midi's speak to the force user. Now, this to me sounds more symbolic than fact. I think subconsciously, the user monitors the midi chlorians, reading the force through them. This theory seems to work no matter if the Midi's are sentient creatures or not. EP 1 made them out to be sentient. Common sense tells us they arent.

a) the Midi's are sentient. Then the user subconsciously communicates with them, due to there close bond in life.

b)the Midi's are nonsentient. However, they may be sensitive to the energy that is the force, and subconsciously, again, the force user learns how to sense the changes in the midi-chlorians, due to interuptions in the natural flow of the force, a disturbance that would be caused by any living thing...(save for something like the Yuuhan Vong, but thats another discussion entirely)..

As far as force potential is concerned. Looking at this symbolically. Qui Gonn said that the midi's speak to the Jedi. Anakin had the highest count of midi's ever. This ,to me, meant he had a louder voice to listen to, whilst others would only have to listen harder. It seems like Midi Chlorians would determine the natural abiliity in the force of a person, rather than potential...

And thats my little theory on midi chlorians.....no matter how useless something may be, it never hurts to have a theory...

2) Vampires

Their is still alot of theology on the race that I've yet to get a clarity on. I know alot of people dont agree with Vampires being in a Star Wars universe. I, personally, dont see a problem at all, as long as we get a clear understanding of what Vamps are exactly and what makes em tick. To me, vamps are just as easily acceptable as Lupines are.

[Hadrian Invicta]

I agree with Hob on the litmus test thingy.

I don't see why Vamps can't get a boost from feeding. In all other Vamp lore they always become a bit stronger immediately after feeding.

A virus, I would think a virus would have to target all midi's not just lightside or darkside. Midi's under the litmus test theory have no side they just exist, but it would be possible to create a virus that affects the midi's sort of like the Sith Daggers that make a user blind to the light side. Just my theories and ramblings and what not.

[Sanis Prent]

I've always seen midi-chlorians as a litmus test for Force potential

Another quote by moi :)

[ReaperFett]

In all other Vamp lore they always become a bit stronger immediately after feeding.
ALL. OTHER. I can accept them being in SW, but I will NOT accept an argument of "Well, they do everywhere else". If you're going to argue that, lets watch the Sayajijijijijijin's all return, with their superpowers because "They have them in DBZ" or whatever.



And I want in writing from a Vampire RPer, one of the big ones, seperate thread, all the weaknesses and strengths of a Vampire. Because it seems I learn of a new ability of theirs every time one posts.

[Hadrian Invicta]

The slippery-slope arguments isn't valid, Saiyan powers have been banned, its in the rules. Strengthening by Vamps hasn't, now whether on not it will be, is up to the posters and the admins of the board. But to say that if you allow one thing then its saying everything else is ok isn't. Saiyan powers were taken out due to the fact that people god-modes with them, as far as I can tell no one has God-Modded their character into becoming all powerful after feeding yet.

[Evil Hobgoblin]

Hadrian: I think the problem Fett is trying to communicate is that he sees very many advantages to being a vampire and very few weaknesses in return, and even the weaknesses are not much of an imposition to the characters that play them. This is the basic formula leading to God-moding, and since he views the problem in that light it is understandable why he would be concerned about the nature of Vampire-SW crossover.

This does not mean vampyres GM. This does not mean they cannot be permitted or rationalized. But defining what they are allows for better interaction with characters of other groups, and since the Shrine is a member of these forums, there is some liscense to request a run-down of what can and can't be done from one of the experienced members.

Listen to me. I should stop acting like a mod, because I'm not one. :-p I'm free of those chains, dammit! Free!

[Hadrian Invicta]

That's why I said we should discuss it, I was simply refuting fett. I don't think he took it personally, at least that was not my intent.

I agree with fett a thread in which the major Vampyre chars list the merits and flaws of the Vamp char would be beneficial. It's just something to be discussed by members of the board.

[Daiquiri Van-Derveld]

A list of weaknesses would be nice but they run the gamut from vampires of old to the more now popular vamps based on the Rice books.

Both fall to a good ray of sunshine, though.

[ReaperFett]

I didnt take it personally, dont worry :)

[DarthHERA]

Funny you say that Fett, because Hera and Daiquiri are both in RP's now trying to find out EXACTLY that, regarding Vamps.

Strengths, weaknesses, hows, what, whys etc.

We'll get back to you on it ;)

ps) this is OOC info not avail IC :)

[Daiquiri Van-Derveld]

Mebbe if the price was right.........:mischief

[Figrin D'an]

Back the Midichlorian thing for a moment...

I think this is very much subjective to how you want to classify the midichlorians' role and purpose with living cells. It's pretty obvious that the name came from doing some letter substitution on the term "mitochondria." Now, if the midichlorians are to serve a similar purpose as mitochondria (along with their "Force-communicative abilities), then removal from a cell is pretty much impossible... at least not without killing the cell, and likely the subject if this is to be done on a large scale. Removal would mean the cell a) no longer has a power source and b) could not replicate itself. Do that, and the body can no longer break down glycogen, which means no ATP production... which would be quite bad.


If you ignore this interpretation, and treat the midichlorians as an entity with only the single purpose of linking someone to the Force... it might be possible, but you'd still likely kill your "donor" subject, and getting the transplanted midichlorians into your test subject's body would be really really difficult... the deliver medium would have to be pretty damn specific to target the proper cell destinations, then incorporating the midi's into the existing cell structure, give them a electical jolt to get them up and running, then hope the don't immediately reject their new environment. The potential rejection time would likely be a matter of hours, rather than days, weeks or months.

As for a virus... well... it's theoretically possible, but it would one impressive feat of genetic engineering. Because midichlorians (assuming aformentioned mitochondria parallel applies) are spread thoughout the body in different types of cell tissues for various organs and the like, the virus would have to be highly adaptive and capable of bastardizing mutiple DNA strands (mitochondria have their own DNA sequences, it seems likely that micichlorians would as well, no matter which definition you choose). Even then, you would run into the problem of likely killing your infected subject, assuming your goal would be to mearly sever their link to the Force.


There is more, but I'll wait for further comment before outlining it...

[Fiend]

this science stuph... its cool to get into, but why actually debate over since its all based one guy's original concepts that weren't ever really explained, like said before, what about lightsabers and all that, all this stuph is controversial, why even go into it on such a flimsy base of standards? I'm just wonderin? :D

[Live Wire]

personally I dont like that the whole midiclorian concept is left up in the air and seemingly (depending on your interpretation) dictates your connection to the force.

The problem is we have a lot of different views on what the little buggers are and what they do. Because lucas threw the BS out there and said hey play with it! It think he came up with the idea after a long night drinking scotch.

Okay that said just on this board alone we have people who do accept midiclorians in whatever form someone decides to use them. We have others who reject them totaly and then others who have their own ideas and interpretations. Taking all that into account I think we need some kind of consensus around here saying for the purpose of roleplaying what they are and what can and can't be done in relation to them

Im not one who likes the whole idea of midiclorians in any form just because I have issues reconciling it with the precedent set by yoda in the original trillogy. Im not saying its impossible but I dont like it. When I role play I pretty much ignore the whole midiclorian issue. But if its something thats going to be brought up we need some kind of assumptions to operate with.

Are they in the cell or are they just life forms floating around in your blood? Do they dictate your connection to the force or just determine potential? If they could be extracted does that person die? do they lose connection to the force? Do all living beings have midiclorians? Would they be present in plants?? Animals??

Yoda stated all life creates the force. animals plants people.....so does that mean midiclorians are in all living things or just people? Since trees have no need to access the force to they have midiclorians? See theres a whole lot of odd possibilities and questions that come to my mind.

I know this post is a little off the main question but I felt these are thing that need to be addressed before even figuring out if dyzms scenario is possible.

[Moltar]

I'm going to have to say no to the "Lets take away all the Midi-Clorians" idea because that is the same as maiming.... Your taking a power away from someone who really can't block it or do anything else to stop it.

It's a bad idea just waiting to be abused by someone so their character will become the most powerful not from earning it, but from cheating.

[Morgan Evanar]

I explained this last time as bad lake PH. Bad lake PH can mean algae. But the algae doesn't really have much to do with the lake's PH being bad in the first place.

I view midichlorians as in indicator of the Force being around, and nothing else. Charley and a lot of other posters share this view.

To extrapolate beyond this view, I think, is ill concieved. All we know about the midicholorians is that they gravitate toward those with high force potential, such as Anakin or Yoda.

There hasn't been anything offical beyond that.

Its just a PH indicator, folks.

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

Actually, I like that idea, and way of thinking.
It is like saying "Build it, and they will come"

[Sean Piett]

Just a note: Midi-Chlorians aren't a parasite. The relationship is mutualistic, not parasitic. Unless you consider the Sith slave-drivers, which is a pretty good theory.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Symbiotic, I believe is the word.

You wouldn't be able to extract them anymore than people extract Mitochondria. And if people extract mitochondria, then obviously I don't really know what I'm talking about.

I've always considered Jedi to use the Force and their abilities as their ally. Sith use it as a tool, as do Dark Jedi. There is something to be gained from its use if you are evil, and therefore 'we' use it to do/get what we want. Whenever we want it.

Hatred is a strong and fast emotion, Love is a stronger emotion, but it is slower to develop. Hatred quickly burns out, love flourishes over time. The Dark side, fueled by hatred, burns quickly and brightly, yet in time it demands more from its users than they have to give. Get a good look at the Emperor and Darth Vader? They weren't going to win any beauty pagents. Their continuous use of the Dark Side tormented their bodies.

The Light side, as it were IMO, fueled by 'good' emotions, peace, tranquility, love...it is slower to develop, but over time reveals more power than the Dark Siders could hope to gain.

Which is why Dark Jedi and Sith target knights and padawans. :D

*runs away from Marcus, Figrin, Anbira, etc* :eek

[Figrin D'an]

:lol

*chases LD*

[Lilaena De'Ville]

:eek

[imported_Terran Starek]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
The Light side, as it were IMO, fueled by 'good' emotions, peace, tranquility, love...it is slower to develop, but over time reveals more power than the Dark Siders could hope to gain.

Finally, someone who knows the truth!!! :lol

LD, that comment made my day. :D

Yeah, that's right evil Sith Masters: enjoy your time! Bide it! Revel in it! 'Casue the Light side's got your number, baby!

WOOOOOOOO! (ok, so that was Terry Tate)

[Lord Soth]

BAH!... "Delusions of Grandeur" and famous last word's...lol :)

[Silus Xilarian]

on side note....Symbiotic means two organisms living together simultaneously. This relationship can be parasitc or mutualistic. A parasitic relationship is where one organism hurts the "host". A mutualistic relationship is made when both organisms benefit...

At least, I believe thats how it went.....:p

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

parasitic relationship is where one organism hurts the "host".

Not always, they could just be living off the host, not harming it.
They just don't contribute

[Sanis Prent]

That is another classification entirely, I believe.

[Sean Piett]

Commensalism, methinks.

[Sanis Prent]

Thats the one. Been a few years since my last biology course.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Midichlorines are a steaming pile of Dog doodoo. Hate, hate, hate!

That being said....


The Light side, as it were IMO, fueled by 'good' emotions, peace, tranquility, love...it is slower to develop, but over time reveals more power than the Dark Siders could hope to gain.


While I disagree with how a Lightsider grows in part, the synopsis of a Lightsider becoming more powerful in the end is probable - but the paradox is that a powerful Jedi Master is also much, much less likely to use their powers and it's probably right the more powerful a Jedi you are, the less you use it unless you have to.

EG - It might be true that a Jedi Knight might jump up to the scaffold, while the Master takes the stairs. A Master would use something else than their powers first. It could well be a genuine Master can be seen by the lack of need they have in using what they have.

It's worth a thought.

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

I know nothing! I never took Biology! Got out of it by taking Enviromental Science

[imported_Terran Starek]

The Senator of Terran concurs with the honorable Marcus. :D