Europe eight back Bush on Iraq

[Darth Viscera]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/01/30/sprj.irq.european.leaders/index.html

Now we're just waiting on France and Germany. I think that France will join, just at the last minute, like with the last war. As Margaret Thatcher told President Bush I, the french are too afraid to be left out of any coalition. They just want it on the record that they don't like this war first, then they'll join. I doubt that Germany will contribute militarily until the war is won, at which time they'll likely contribute occupying forces as in Afghanistan.

Thank Heavens, the day draws nearer when at last we can liberate Iraq.

[JonathanLB]

That reminds me of Donnie Darko.

Actually it doesn't whatsoever, but I want to hijack your thread :)

"Smurfette doesn't f**k."
"That's bulls**t. Smurfette f**ks all the other smurfs. Why do you think Papa Smurf made her? Because all the other smurfs were getting too horny."
"No, no, not Vanity. I heard he's a homosexual."
"Ok well then do you know what? She f**ks them while Vanity watches, ok?"
"What about Papa Smurf? I mean he must get into the action."
"Yeah what he does, he films the gang bang; later on, he beats off to the tape."
"First of all, Papa Smurf didn't create Smurfette, Gargamel did. She was sent in as Gargamel's evil spy with the intention of destroying the Smurf Village, but the overwhelming goodness of the Smurf way of life transformed her. And as for the whole gang bang scenario, it just couldn't happen. Smurfs are asexual. ..." -Donnie Darko

[Darth Viscera]

I agree with your political assessment 100% JonathanLB. The french definitely need to get their asses in gear when we need them the most. As you said, it's not like we haven't been there to hook them up with help for the last 190 years.

[ReaperFett]

No offense, but you've hardly got the eight powerhouses of Europe there :)

[Jedieb]

There's also this to consider:

But at the United Nations in New York the split between world nations over Iraq was evident as 11 of the 15 members of the U.N. Security Council canvassed by The Associated Press supported giving more time to weapons inspectors to pursue Iraq's peaceful disarmament.

France, Russia and China, who all have veto power, want more time, as well as Germany, Mexico, Chile, Guinea, Cameroon, Syria, Angola and Pakistan, diplomats told AP.
Not everyone is banging the drum. The inspectors are also asking for more time, 4-5 months I believe.

[Admiral Lebron]

Honestly, I think Bush doesn't give a <smallfont color={hovercolor}>-Censored-</smallfont> about the UN.

[Jedieb]

Russia, China, France, and Germany. I'm curious to see how he'll get all of them behind this. The first 3 are going to be crucial for U.N. approval, he can't get it without them. I think he's more than willing to go on without U.N. approval. Britain, Italy, and other nations will join us. The critism of a non-U.N. supported war will be intense.

[Admiral Lebron]

I hope he pulls out of the UN...then kicks them off of American soil. ^.^

[Darth Viscera]

The big question is Russia. China has been talking to Powell for a long time, which may be indicative that they wish to forego vetoing us, and France will likely bend at the 11th hour because they don't want to be left out of the coalition and thus rendered irrelevant. Germany...well nobody gives a jumping jesus about Germany. Schroeder has already said that they won't even support the removal of Saddam WITH U.N. support...Germany is the geopolitical equivalent of a lame duck. They can shout and scream green all they want, as long as they uphold their end of the bargain, to let us use our bases in their country.

Many of the countries that want more time for inspections will support us in the actual event of war. This sudden emergence of eight of Europe's leading countries is indicative that the dominoes will turn their coats at the drop of a hat.

[ReaperFett]

Europes leading? Three arent even full EU members, and youre left with the country led by a man whos done jail time, two countries who rejected the Euro (one of which has guns that jam, Tanks that dont work etc). Oh, Spain and Portugal too. It's a group of leftovers and outcasts.

[Admiral Lebron]

But they are close to Iraq.

[Darth Viscera]

@Feet

What's your point?

The fact is, the elected officials of 231 million people just pledged their support in this war.

Honestly, what the hell do I care if they're EU members? The United Kingdom isn't an EU member, even Norway isn't an EU member.

[Sanis Prent]

The EU is more of an economic entity than a political one anyways.

[ReaperFett]

The UK is an EU member.


And 231 million people dont agree. Great, they put their names down about, and I quote, " tough action". What will they give a war? Very little.

And theres only really seven names. Blair will do as he's told.

[ReaperFett]

And how does our BBC News begin? "Europe in Crisis". "European Gang Warfare". "Outright major crisis". "Major damage to Europe" Oh joy.



Little facts for you. First, only 5/15 of the present EU have said this. A minority. And dumbly, they didnt even ask Germany or France.

And for the EU joiners, it was again a minority, although I dont know how many said no.


And they havent said theyre in, they signed an open letter saying they support Bush. Nothing concrete, nothing guarenteed.

[Sanis Prent]

Not like the US expects Europe to give as much. I mean...really, we're only after tacit support. With the exception of England, I doubt anybody else will provide direct military support in the event of an attack. Some might provide intelligence, and some might provide use of forward bases. That's about all that can be expected. We're not asking for support on the hard line. Just enough to cut the red tape that blocks us from Baghdad. Getting down to brass tacks, we have 20-fold enough military clout to get the job done.

[Admiral Lebron]

I have no doubt in my mind we can easily wage war in Iraq without any Europeon Support. But, we might as well have it for image and staging ground purposes.

[JonathanLB]

"I agree with your political assessment 100% JonathanLB. The french definitely need to get their asses in gear when we need them the most. As you said, it's not like we haven't been there to hook them up with help for the last 190 years."

LOL, yeah if it weren't for us, they'd all be speaking German (sorry I love that saying).

Well I'm not real patriotic about this whole war thing. I'm anti-war in all cases where I think war should or can be avoided. I think, however, that the importance of keeping a powerful, active military such as that of the United States cannot be overstated. I actually very much believe in defense spending and also believe that a government's only true job is to protect its citizens from foreign threats. The people can deal with most of the other matters themselves through the free market, with the exceptions of needing LOCAL (and thus non-federally funded) services such as police, fire, and hospitals (at least, such services should be locally funded, same goes with roads, not federally funded).

As for the Iraq situation, honestly, would it kill us to give them some more time and let everyone know that we intend to avoid war IF possible but that we will strike hard and fast if they absolutely do not comply? I think you have to be concerned with rushing to action, anyway.

I personally really like Tony Blair, I think he's a cool guy. The U.K. has been one of the best U.S. allies basically every since we left their empire, haha (ok there was the war of 1812). At least, in this last century, 100 years or so, they've been great allies and reasonable people.

The French are cowards. I am sorry, but I don't care what the French have to say about anything. You'll never find a more pathetic country. It's nearly impossible to imagine the days when Napoleon lead great armies from that country. The French don't reason through anything, they just beat the ANTI-war drum constantly and would not even join a just war. I'm not saying Iraq is a just war, either, because I'm not behind the U.S. effort to go to war with Iraq right now. Not from what I know, at least. The point stands, though, nobody should ever care what the Socialist French think. They hate Americans anyway, even though we went over there and saved their butts.

My dad told me once of some other European country he visited, though, that when he was there this old guy, probably like 80 (and this was 10 years ago or so I think), approached my dad realizing he was an American and said, "Thank you for what you did for our country in World War II. We are grateful," and that was it. Pretty amazing. Maybe not EVERYONE has forgot ;)

[ReaperFett]

LOL, yeah if it weren't for us, they'd all be speaking German (sorry I love that saying).
If it wasnt for Canada helping Britain out, you wouldnt have had the chance :)


I personally really like Tony Blair, I think he's a cool guy.
I liked him when he wasnt "leading" us.

[Loki Ahmrah]

Edit: Forget it.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think France won't join unless they give the inspectors more time they seem very firm about this the same with Russia. Also those countries aren't great if we have to depend on Italy we are screwed, Hitler had to bail the Italian forces so much, they couldn't even conquer Greece or Albania, so its best if they are way behind enemy lines. The rest of those states don't really have an army. Also Reaper is right sure these guys are elected now but if they support us their population will vote them out including Blair, he will not survive the next election mark my words. That is also why Germany and France is against it they have to worry about their own necks. Finally I am against this I think war is a mistake, if you want to get rid of Saddam have him killed or something, I am okay with that. Also Iraq will not have a democracy, sure their will be an election but they will have another military dicator within ten years, either because we let (if they elect a muslim extremist we sure would) or because it just happens. Democracy does not work in the middle East it is because 90% of the people are illiterate so that means 10% is voting that just spells like an election where a dictator came come out of. Also I think the middle east will hate us more I expect more terrorist attacks after and our economy will be hurt also I predict Bush will be out in 2004 (mostly because of the economy) if happened after the gulf war, I guess history does repeat itself.

[JonathanLB]

History is an endless cycle bound to repeat itself endlessly because of human ignorance and stupidity. lol, j/k.

Although, and don't take this the wrong way, I find it rather incredible that Germany struck back so hard during World War II. Again, don't take this the wrong way, but the world had it coming. You don't push an entire country into the mud like that and treat them like crap, then expect them to eat dirt and say "thank you." Nope. That relatively little country (it sure isn't as big as all of the ground they conquered!) pulled a can of whoop-<smallfont color={hovercolor}>-Censored-</smallfont> on all of Europe and made the entire world pay for what they did to them at the end of World War I. Hopefully someone learned from that, because it cost the lives of 40 MILLION people, which is so incredible I cannot even imagine that number of dead people except as a very abstract concept. It is sickening. So let us hope that someone learned from that so that we can, if we take over Iraq, rebuild it, and same goes with Afghanistan...

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well the fact is that it wasn't just the fact that the world push Germany in the mud so to speak, that was part of the problem, but it wouldn't never became an issue if the Versaille Treaty had been enforced. But it wasn't because two of the strongest nations in the world, the US and Russia weren't in the League of Nations. Also the world were sick of fighting and didn't want to fight another war, especially France. Realize most of WW 1 was fought on their ground Northern France was ruined they lost a lot troops because of the war, the people weren't ready for another war, plus they didn't have the man power because of the bodies they lost in WW 1.

[Darth Viscera]

AND TURKEY IS ONBOARD!

w00t!

Turkey is now open to allied troops.


Make that 9 leading European nations.

[ReaperFett]

Turkey is a leading nation? THat's strange, I thought they were the country that has struggled to enter the EU due to issues with how the country is ran.



As an aside, there's a US weapons Dump in the UK. Millions upon millions of pounds of missiles are there. And you know how we know this? Because a TV programme got a tape from someone who sneaked inside for 25 minutes. Nice to see missile dumps have such security, eh? :|

[Darth Viscera]

So what are you honkin' at me about it for? Write your parliamentarian and make a case that an extra contingent of security bobbies should be attached to the allied weapons dump.

[ReaperFett]

Well, theyre actually not allowed inside I hear. Some old agreement from way back.

And it was not at you, as you said nothing that made that a reply. It's on the subject. Dont take things so personally.

[Darth Viscera]

Poor Tony Blair is sacrificing himself politically for the sake of Iraq's liberation. The englanders are going to eat him alive in the polls. Rather heroic, actually. I hope that the American people always remember Blair for his selfless act. Maybe in 50 years there will be a monument on the Mall.

[ReaperFett]

Rather heroic? I'd call it heroic if he was there for us too.

[Darth Viscera]

He is there for you. Don't tell me you won't celebrate when the allies finally march into Baghdad and liberate those people.

Most of these "pacifists" you see out there fancy themselves idealists. Peh. They're about as idealistic as Neville Chamberlain when he started waving a scrap of paper which beared Hitler's name and shouting about "peace in our time".

[ReaperFett]

Yeah, course he's there for us. Like when there was that carbomb in Birmingham. Luckily, it was defused or disarmed, I forget. But of course, we heard something from him, right? Words saying terrorism is bad, like how your guy would?








...oh wait, I forget. HE DIDNT. He is a total soft touch, and is nothing but a US ambassador as of now.

[Jedieb]

Turkey is an interesting situation. You have a newly elected government that's dragging its heels on granting US forces full access to its border and bases to create a second front. Why? On one side around 80% of the population opposes the war and allowing the US to use Turkish soil as a staging ground. On the other hand, the US is dangling Billions of dollars in aid in front of Turkey. Even if Turkish government caves in, that 80% isn't going to be too happy. You'll have more anti-American sentiment than you can shake a stick at which is one of my main reasons for not supporting any kind of military action without overwhelming support from the UN. If we go at this without the UN I think we'll regret it.

[Darth Viscera]

Turkey'll change its tune once they see Iraq turn into New Qatar.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Turkey elected an extreme conservative government right? I have my doubts they will fully support anything without the UN. They might allow the US to use their land but they will never send their own soliders or help pay for it. In the end the US will have to pay for this one themselves, and I have no clue where they will get the money without rasing taxes.

[Darth Viscera]

We don't need Turkish soldiers, we just need Turkish land. Keep it simple.

[Diego Van Derveld]

For one, selling benchmark bonds raises money nicely. Not everything is funded by taxes. Don't believe that rhetoric.

[Marcus Telcontar]

One of these days Vis, you should watch Bowling for Columbine. It may change your views.

[Diego Van Derveld]

I've seen it, and it changed nothing for me.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Marcus Elessar
One of these days Vis, you should watch Bowling for Columbine. It may change your views.

Don't be condescending, please. I am fully capable of deciding my own views, researching and reinforcing them. Too, I don't think for an instant that 119 minutes of liberal arguments is going to nullify the personal accounts of more than 50 Iraqi and Iranian refugees and immigrants. It's not like I haven't thought my opinions through.