Rumsfeld and old Europe

[Dutchy]

In responding to a reporter's question about French and German qualms, Rumsfeld hinted the United States would turn to new NATO members in Eastern Europe for support.

"You're thinking of Europe as Germany and France. I don't," he said. "I think that's old Europe. If you look at the entire NATO Europe today, the center of gravity is shifting to the east and there are a lot of new members."

Yeah right, like France and Germany are 2 insignificant countries in Europe. I think not.

Pretty ignorant remark by Rumsfeld and it won't gather him more support, I think.

[ReaperFett]

My GOD what a dumb thing to say.


I mean, theyre only two of the largest countries with a lot of power economically and powerfully.

But hey, Im sure the military might of such powerhouses as Romania will be a huge asset ;)


And if the power is shifting east, why are there a lot of Eastern Asylum seekers heading west? Why would they leave Europes powerbase?

[Marcus Telcontar]

Dont bother with the I think remark Dutchy. It wont gather him any support. That's like some sort of insult over two countires that are aliies, but still have serious but valid concerns. France I was readign would support a strike on Iraq if things were done somewhat different and Bush wasnt hell bent no matter what. How stupid is Rumsfield, insulting allies liek this?!?! And France he should be careful with, they have veto vote in the Security Council.

[ReaperFett]

Yeah, he needs to insult the Russians and the Chinese, and he gets a full house :)

[Marcus Telcontar]

And our gutless wimp of a PM just goes along with the Bush line, 100%. Honestly, how frellign stupid were people to vote that twat (Howard) in last year??

[Levi Argon]

To steal an Aussie quote: "What utter rot".

Rumsfeld: "I do not beg your pardon, Mister Bush, for the black speech of Estonia may be heard in every corner of the west!"

[ReaperFett]

"There is a union now, between the Two Towers, Bulgaria, home of the Bulgarians and USA, strong hold of Bushuman"

[JediBoricua]

:lol

[Diego Van Derveld]

It is a correct thing to say, if you can get over the laymen's perception.

The former eastern bloc is progressing far faster than western european nations. That isn't to say they're on the level with them...far from it. But, in terms of development speed, it favors the east.

Still, I personally don't think Rumsfeld has much in the way of tact to begin with. He needs to learn how to be a public speaker.

[Admiral Lebron]

Hmm... maybe he is trying to make the weak countries feel good so they will support America and NATO will support America??

[Darth Viscera]

Ha! If anyone thinks that France and Germany's will to join the war effort rests on the hinge of the "old Europe" remark, you're bonkers. In case you haven't been listening, they've been talking some serious trash about us for the last year. Their whole foreign policy is geared towards the acquisition of oil at the expense of other countries, anyhow. France sees the U.N. embargo on Iraq as a huge opportunity to buy oil at dirt cheap prices while smuggling in their own little surprises in exchange.

[ReaperFett]

Thats funny, a lot over here argue thats the US' policy too.



And I think it could matter. France/Germany says theyre unsure, Rumsfeld says theyre unimportant. Im sure that will be in their head when deciding to risk their peoples lives.

And of course, Im sure if Blair had a spine he'd ask why he just also insulted Britain there.

[Loki Ahmrah]

Originally posted by Diego Van Derveld

The former eastern bloc is progressing far faster than western european nations. That isn't to say they're on the level with them...far from it. But, in terms of development speed, it favors the east.



That is correct. That would be because they are lesser-developed countries. There rate of development will no doubt grow to be much greater than the like of France and Germany. But that does not equate to becoming "New Europe" and the west becoming "Old Europe". There is room for much more development in the east and if the east finally matched the west, that could prove better all round rather than one being more favourable than the other. But like you said, he needs to learn how to become a public speaker.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That is one of the stupidest statements that I have heard one, like Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, etc are powerhowes they are far from it I would think and we have to relly on them for help we are screwed. There armies are pathetic and sure they are starting to develop faster, but they were 60-70 years to behind to begin with of course they are going to go through some sort of massive development. Also Marcus you are right about the veto power, if France vetos the security council measure we will have no outside support except for Britian and maybe Australia, Saudi, Turkey and Egypt said they wouldn't help if there wasn't a security council measure. And we know France, Russia and most of Europe won't go along with it either, so I have no clue what he is trying to do with that stupid statement.

[ReaperFett]

Turkey might pull out because they're trying to get properly into the EU these days. So insulting France and Germany may lose them.

[Diego Van Derveld]

There rate of development will no doubt grow to be much greater than the like of France and Germany.

Already there and passed in the blink of an eye. Germany and France don't grow much at all. Western Europe isn't known for a spectacular growth rate.

His statement is geared at the conceptualization of an allied Europe...the preconception that "Our European Allies" are western only. That is the Old Europe. New Europe includes not only the traditional west, but the newly-joined eastern bloc nations.

Its a hair-brained speech, but I doubt if the intent was ill.

[Jedieb]

When Rumsfeld said "Old" Europe, I think he meant to say;"The part of Europe that currently doesn't support this particulary aspect of U.S. foreign policy". But old is easier to say and makes for a quicker soundbite.:rolleyes

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by Jedieb
When Rumsfeld said "Old" Europe, I think he meant to say;"The part of Europe that currently doesn't support this particulary aspect of U.S. foreign policy". But old is easier to say and makes for a quicker soundbite.:rolleyes

Listening to Radio Netherlands this morning, some of the reaction from Europe was truly hositle. Yes, they see is as you said. And they view it as a bad insult.

[JediBoricua]

This would all be easily solved if the US showed the stunning evidence they always say they have about Irak and the weapons of mass destruction. If they did this France and Germany would have no choice but to support a War Resolution and all this nonsense would be over. It is really that simple.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
This would all be easily solved if the US showed the stunning evidence they always say they have about Irak and the weapons of mass destruction. If they did this France and Germany would have no choice but to support a War Resolution and all this nonsense would be over. It is really that simple.

Yes, that would be all that was needed. The USA should realise most of the world just does not see the compelling evidence for a war.

[Diego Van Derveld]

Then again...if these people still need evidence of Saddam's weapons of indescriminate killing and his lack of restraint in using them on anybody whatsoever...I think they're either deaf, dumb, or both.

I don't care what gets us into Iraq. Be it a premise of nuclear weapons, or supplying the talent for American Idol. All that matters is that we get in there and take him out. Its 13 years past due.

[ReaperFett]

The problem is that you can argue almost every point that the US uses. Why help Bin Laden when 10 years ago Bin Laden, who hates Saddam, wanted to help the US in the Gulf War? If you want to use the gassing of Kurds, why not mention Britain did that 80 years ago. And so on.

To me, the biggest problem is every time ANYTHING comes out some US important person says "THis is evidence". To me, this sounds like they're desperate and keep grabbing each straw. I dont believe it to be true, but Im not anti-action.

[Darth Viscera]

Bin Laden did not want to help the U.S. in the Gulf War. You're grasping at straws if you want to twist the truth into "helping the U.S. against Saddam".

Bin Laden went to Saudi govt. and offered his services in defending Riyadh against Saddam's army should he one day choose to invade Saudi Arabia. The Saudis said no thanks, Uncle Sam is helping us out, and by the way, for the duration, you're under house arrest. Bin Laden's eyes then proceeded to bulge as his jaw fell to the floor, because the idea of the U.S. military stepping foot in Saudi Arabia (holy land to muslims) is outrageous to an islamic militant. He would have started sending human-guided missiles to blow up allied personnel if the Saudis hadn't caged him. Believe you me, he forgot about Saddam in a fraction of a second when the Saudis mentioned U.S. assistance.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Saadam was our ally at one time though we supported him during the Iran-Iraq war heck we gave him most of the supplies he has now.

[ReaperFett]

Bin Laden went to Saudi govt. and offered his services in defending Riyadh against Saddam's army should he one day choose to invade Saudi Arabia. The Saudis said no thanks, Uncle Sam is helping us out, and by the way, for the duration, you're under house arrest. Bin Laden's eyes then proceeded to bulge as his jaw fell to the floor, because the idea of the U.S. military stepping foot in Saudi Arabia (holy land to muslims) is outrageous to an islamic militant. He would have started sending human-guided missiles to blow up allied personnel if the Saudis hadn't caged him. Believe you me, he forgot about Saddam in a fraction of a second when the Saudis mentioned U.S. assistance.
Yuo hear that, I hear he asked the US government and Saudi Arabia vetoed it.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Saadam was our ally at one time though we supported him during the Iran-Iraq war heck we gave him most of the supplies he has now.

Which is exactly why the Iraqi army is now supplied with more than a million M-16 rifles, thousands of M-60 tanks, F-15 fighter jets, Corporal missiles and Humvees.

Oh, jeez, wait, that's ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

Turns out, they're armed with Soviet-made Kalashnikov rifles, Soviet-made T-55, T-62 and T-72 tanks, Soviet-made MiG fighter jets, Soviet-made SCUD missiles and Soviet-made armored scout cars. All these products, surprisingly, were made in Soviet Russia and supplied by Soviet Russia.

The major Soviet supply shipments to Iraq started in 1983. Uncle Sam wanted to test its equipment against Soviet equipment, so it began discreet supply shipments to Iran in 1985, several of which were confiscated by the Israelis *shakes fist in general direction of Jerusalem*

I'm not seeing much proof of this "we gave him most of the supplies he has now" stuff. Certainly we did send some supplies (note the word "some") to Iraq, but not in the numbers that you're thinking of.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am sorry you are wrong there the US even admits they sided with Iraq the govt. despised Iran. Iran was helped by the Soviets, I learned that in Modern Russia History back in College. If they have Russian Weapons now they must have bought them from either the former Soviet republics or the Blackmarket.

[Hadrian Invicta]

Carr is correct, we did arm Irag in their war against Iran, why? Because Iran held our people hostage, Iran blew up our ships, Iran threatened our citizens. Hmmm yeah, no brainer.

I am against a war with Iraq, i don't see any need in it, but our gov't decided to play Foreign Legion, albeit we don't slaughter entire cities and cultures, (ie France, Germany, England, Netherlands, Spain in days of Colonialism.) But we still screw up.

Who cares what Germany, France thinks, hell who cares what NATO or the UN thinks. We are a Sovereign nation who has the right to do as we see fit. If your country has a problem with that, stop trading with us, taking our foreign aid, allowing our soldiers to have bases in your sovereign territory. You have just as much right to your own sovereignty as you can defend.

I'm sick of seeing Americans, Canadians, Aussies, Brits fighting and dying for the Kurds, the Arabs, the Albanians. Fight your own damned wars. This is as much a rant to our leaders as it is to those who criticize them. It's time for nations to serve their own interests, do what's right by their citizenry and say to hell with interfering in others affairs.

Yeah, I need to quick drinking Jolt at 1 am

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
I am sorry you are wrong there the US even admits they sided with Iraq the govt. despised Iran. Iran was helped by the Soviets, I learned that in Modern Russia History back in College. If they have Russian Weapons now they must have bought them from either the former Soviet republics or the Blackmarket.

We supplied Iraq with some weapons, we supplied the Iranians with far more weapons, regular discreet shipments starting in 1985. The Soviet Union supplied Iraq starting in 1983, and probably armed Iran too. Likely just a few million kalashnikovs, because Iran didn't have much in the way of armor, and what they did have for an air force was a bunch of U.S. F-4 Phantoms.

You're 100% incorrect if you think that the Iraqis didn't fight the Iran-Iraq war with Soviet weaponry. That was a war of sparse U.S. weaponry on the Iranian side against massive Iraqi Soviet armored formations, Soviet-style triple-defense formations, Soviet Hind helicopters, T-55-62-72 tanks (the Iraqis even complained because they couldn't figure out how to use the ground-mapping radar on the T-72, which brought them back to WWII accuracy), MiG fighters, and on and on.

Honestly, if you think that Iraq hasn't been equipped almost wholely with Soviet weaponry for decades, then you need a refresher course in modern russian history. Where do you think that $7 billion Iraq-Russian debt came from? The Iraqi army is basically a stripped-down version of a Soviet army you might have found in Afghanistan in 1980.

Your explanation that maybe they armed themselves with weapons from former Soviet republics also holds no water. How many former Soviet republics do you imagine there were in August 1990, 16 months before the Soviet Union fell?

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am not going to get in an argument with you I believe my history professor and what I have read in Newsweek and other books more. Cite a source for your information and then I will see.

[Sanis Prent]

How about you cite pictures of the Republican guard using American equipment?

Can't find any? Not suprised.

[ReaperFett]

Everyone knows an AK is more durable, due to its simple construction.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don't have a book on Russian History but I will go to the library to prove it. Look we we were against Iran our govt. despised them back then, I remember Regan comparing the Itollia to Hitler.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
I don't have a book on Russian History but I will go to the library to prove it. Look we we were against Iran our govt. despised them back then, I remember Regan comparing the Itollia to Hitler.

Who here were born before the Inan hostage crisis? Remeber the anger and hate the USA had to Iran for daring to do what they did? It was common knowledge that when the Iran-Iraq war broke out, the USA was 100% behind Iraq. The USa had reasons to give Iran a beating via a proxy and that proxy was ... Iraq. And you know who was in charge, right?

Listen Vis, I cant give a rip whose arms Iraq were using. Their war was funded by the USA, they got a hell of a lot of aid and support. The USa wouldnt give two frellign rips if Hussein gassed Kurds, and even today would not care less if Hussein had not invaded Kuwait. If Hussein had sat still and sold oil to his "ally" the USA, he would have got rich, fat and happy and could have done what he wanted within Iraq.

[Darth Viscera]

Look guys, if you want proof, do a google search for "Iran-Iraq War". spend 5 minutes reading, don't lash out at me. Honestly, as if I wouldn't know about that war. My cousin was General Nasiri, for christ's sake. No, not that General Nasiri, I'm referring to the one who was in charge of the Shaw's Majestic Guard. I think-I'm still trying to track him down. Sarlash Gar Nasiri (Head of the Army Nasiri).

If you see him, tell me, ok?

[Darth Viscera]

And by the way, the U.S. did provide weapons shipments to Iran. Here's the Executive Summary:



In October and November 1986, two secret U.S. Government operations were publicly exposed, potentially implicating Reagan Administration officials in illegal activities. These operations were the provision of assistance to the military activities of the Nicaraguan contra rebels during an October 1984 to October 1986 prohibition on such aid, and the sale of U.S. arms to Iran in contravention of stated U.S. policy and in possible violation of arms-export controls. In late November 1986, Reagan Administration officials announced that some of the proceeds from the sale of U.S. arms to Iran had been diverted to the contras.

As a result of the exposure of these operations, Attorney General Edwin Meese III sought the appointment of an independent counsel to investigate and, if necessary, prosecute possible crimes arising from them.

The Special Division of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit appointed Lawrence E. Walsh as Independent Counsel on December 19, 1986, and charged him with investigating:

(1) the direct or indirect sale, shipment, or transfer since in or about 1984 down to the present, of military arms, materiel, or funds to the government of Iran, officials of that government, persons, organizations or entities connected with or purporting to represent that government, or persons located in Iran;

(2) the direct or indirect sale, shipment, or transfer of military arms, materiel or funds to any government, entity, or person acting, or purporting to act as an intermediary in any transaction referred to above;

(3) the financing or funding of any direct or indirect sale, shipment or transfer referred to above;

(4) the diversion of proceeds from any transaction described above to or for any person, organization, foreign government, or any faction or body of insurgents in any foreign country, including, but not limited to Nicaragua;

(5) the provision or coordination of support for persons or entities engaged as military insurgents in armed conflict with the government of Nicaragua since 1984.

This is the final report of that investigation.

This was known as Iran/Contra, and you've all likely heard of it.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I never said they didn't supply some arms to Iran but they mostly supported Iraq, like Marcus said, if it isn't so why is it history books.

[Darth Viscera]

Carr, read my original post again please, then read your original post again.


Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Saadam was our ally at one time though we supported him during the Iran-Iraq war heck we gave him most of the supplies he has now.

False.


I never said they didn't supply some arms to Iran but they (the United States) mostly supported Iraq, like Marcus said, if it isn't so why is it history books.

support != supplies

If support = supplies, then all of a sudden those thousands of Soviet tanks bought by Iraq in the late 70's and 80's would be U.S.-made M-60 tanks. No tanks, no such supplies. We gave them support (mostly intel), but not the vast mountains of U.S. supplies, rifles, ground, air and sea vehicles that your original post would lead a person to believe.

Your original post would lead a person to believe that Kuwait was overrun with Iraqi M-1 Abrahms tanks, humvees, Apache helicopters, M-16 rifles and F-16 Falcons.

[ReaperFett]

Didnt lead me to believe that Visc.

[Marcus Telcontar]

support = supplies. Where do you think Iraq's funding came from during the Iran / Iraq war? Garage sales in lower Bagdad? Geez Vis, it's well known the USA paid billions to keep Iraq going, a good deal of it in buddy deals in Iraq oil.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/27/1043533996246.html

Good article, getting back on topic.

[Darth Viscera]

That article reeks of liberal bias and pretention. Show me an article written by a youngish male tory or hawk of some sort, and I'll be able to trudge through it.


Where do you think Iraq's funding came from during the Iran / Iraq war?

Much of it didn't come. Likely they optioned the future sale of their oil while they were in the war, as Iran had bombed their refineries, but they intended to rebuild them. Iraq still owes billions of dollars to Russia and France for weapons purchases from the 1980's, which is why Russia and France want to prolong the inspections. They think that one day Saddam will still write them a check for $7 billion. Unfortunately for the rest of the world, they're letting this affect their foreign policy, and are broadcasting their tainted oil-mongering to the rest of the world, to people who are eager to find something nasty to say about the U.S., the first excuse they get.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I realized that I wrote that statement wrong I should have not implied that we gave them supplies what I meant was we gave them aid and a lot of it which is probably why Iraq basically won the Iran-Iraq war, Iran's main supporter was the Soviets and by that time the Soviet were falling apart (ex Chernoble, Afghanstan) so they couldn't supply them with the funds that they really needed. Now sure Iraq used our money to buy Soviet goods but that is because they could get them cheaper because the Soviets were collapsing they were selling things just to get money to stay alive to me that makes sense. Sure it should have told us something about Saddam back then but I think we though the Itolla was the worst threat, and he could have been too if he had won that war.

[Diego Van Derveld]

WTF....you think that the Soviet collapse was something that was telegraphed and easily seen, years in advance?

They might have been on hard times, but NOBODY was saying "Ah...it'll only be a matter of time before they collapse. Woohoo!"

The fall of the Eastern Bloc, and the subsequent fall of the Soviets suprised EVERYONE. It came almost out of nowhere.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Vis, you dont like the bloody article, because it hoses down some of the total hawkish nonsense you are trudging through. Tough!

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,5901253%255E2,00.html

Seems Blix is saying that what they didnt find is a problem.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah that is because nobody knew that the Soviet Union was in that bad shape, they hid their dirty laundry and did a very good job at it. I have several classes on Russian History and that is exactly what the professor said, the Soviet system was falling apart in the 70's to me it shows that Communism didn't work that was the reason the thing collapse like it did. As far as why Iraq went to the Soviets because of the cheapest prices, more than likely they found out they were selling stuff cheaper than the US, they probably didn't even question them.

[JediBoricua]

Well I don't know about that article, since you claim it is tainted with liberal bias, but I saw a program on the History Channel where they interviewed the CEO of a Maryland based biological coorporation and he specifically said that in the late 70's he was commanded by the Department of Defense to send a shipment of differents biological elements (Antrax being one of them) to Irak.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Well, now we have the Blix report. Now I have been one person who has said, show the evidence, not propaganda, because frankly all I'm hearing up to now is White House BS. They are making claims and clearly not goign to think about taking any other course other than war, acting like a high school bully - and that I may add is what is making Europe so uneasy. So.... Blix is apparently weak man and ineffective. No one seems to expect result from him.

Well, interestingly, the report today says a few very, very interestign things. One is that Arms inspectors have access as they wish and they have not found anything. But the second is that they are clearly being obstructed and there are things being hidden. That's a strong statement from Blix and for me, it makes me esasperated. If the USA hadnt been so bloody hawkish, here is a clear indication that Iraq is in breach and this could be used to set up whatever the USA wishes to do.

Fine, I expect the USA now basically to declare Iraq in breach and then attack. But because of the franlky inept way the Bush Administration has handled this, the only way Europe will support an attack is if Hussein is seen sitting on a nuke. With some political work, Europe would be right now stepping aside. Instead, Bush has offended his allies and turned them inot roadblocks.

Look, this is what really annoys the hell out of me! A bit of political savvy and the USA woud have had world support - now, when you have Blix saying Iraq is hiding something, the USA is going to go it alone because Europe has had enough and is digging it's heels in and objecting to events.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Germany, and France want another report in 3 weeks if they don't give them that France will use its veto, IMO. They still could give their veto it will depend on what happens in 3 weeks. I guess it will depend on what happens in the adminstration, if they want to go to war before March then they will probably wait a week and propose a resolution declaring war, or if they are willing to wait till like mid March then they will give in and wait 3 weeks a month to work things out with the Security council.

[JediBoricua]

According to a local radio station here it seems the European Union General Assembly has decided to support a resolution for more time to the inspectors, which means that Spain which had supported mildly the US will vote against a war resolution right now. The diplomatic fronts seems to be getting tougher for W. It seems, Old Europe bites back.

I totally agree with Marcus BTW. On Diplomacy this administration gets a D.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
Well I don't know about that article, since you claim it is tainted with liberal bias, but I saw a program on the History Channel where they interviewed the CEO of a Maryland based biological coorporation and he specifically said that in the late 70's he was commanded by the Department of Defense to send a shipment of differents biological elements (Antrax being one of them) to Irak.

It doesn't surprise me. That Maryland company you speak of is 2 miles away in Rockville, near Twinbrook. I used to drive by it every day, and my mom worked right across the street in the Health and Human Services building. If the rumors are true, they were shipping samples to Iraq until the invasion of Kuwait.


@Marcus

No, I don't like the article because the whole thing is based on the pretense that Bill "Slick Willy" Clinton was God's gift to the presidency. With views like that, they can't have anything good to say about our war aims in Iraq, now can they?