Far From Heaven

[CMJ]

Well, this film definitely was trying to be a 50's TV drama, like some of the ones I watched in TV criticsm. It was really well acted, the costumes were good, and the production design was fantastic. Actually just about EVERYTHING about the film was good...except the script.

If the writer/director was trying to make a film that showed the 50's weren't all they were cracked up to be...he shouldn't have FOLLOWED the format of films from that era. And boy does it ever....hell the music was straight out of some of those things I had to watch in class. Also...the film needed a sense of humor. ALL drama has to have the occasional joke(even Shakeaspeare knew that), but I don't believe there was one freaking joke or comedic moment in the whole picture.

While it sounds like I'm extremely critical of the film, I actually enjoyed it to a degree. By no means should it be nominated for some of the stuff it is....

At the same time I did think certain aspects of the film were phenomenol. Julianne Moore for instance was terrific(and IS award...or at least nomination worthy IMHO). The actors all the way around deserved better material.

Anyways...overall a low 3 stars out of 4 for me(as in barely made the 3 star rating)...mostly based of the performances and technical aspects of the film. Nonetheless, a disappointing film...it has tons of potential....

[JonathanLB]

"Anyways...overall a low 3 stars out of 4 for me(as in barely made the 3 star rating)...mostly based of the performances and technical aspects of the film. Nonetheless, a disappointing film...it has tons of potential...."

CMJ, I love you man!!! lol, you are awesome.

Our film tastes are almost too similar this year! Haha. I gave it a low 3 stars out of 4 as well, mostly for the excellent performances, accurate recreation of the locations (sets, props, that sorta thing), and at times a somewhat moving story, but one I felt didn't entirely work, like you. It was disappointing, to me, and by no means worthy of all of this attention.

[CMJ]

Well Jonathan, from what I have seen, Ms. Moore would be my winner of the golden statue for Best Actress, despite the overall quality of the film. The acting was just great all the way around.

As I said, they deserved a better script.

[JonathanLB]

True... that was a really good performance, but I'm sorry I have to say I like Zellweger in Chicago better.

[CMJ]

I haven't seen "Chicago" as of yet. I'll get back to you. :)

[JonathanLB]

You must see Chicago, it is excellent, at least I felt it was. I admit musicals are not my deal really, but I would like to think I really am fair to every single genre of film and I appreciate any type of fine filmmaking, which is why I love Singin' in the Rain and really enjoyed Chicago. I don't dislike musicals, they just would not be one of my favorite types of films, but I suspect every critic has a less favorite type.

Actually I was discussing that with a few other guys and saying how the only real attribute required to be a critic is a passion for all types of movies and an open-mindedness that most moviegoers simply do not have. Now I know I've been accused before of not being open-minded, and often for good reason several years ago, but I am extremely open minded about film. I watch movies from all countries, I watch independent films, there are no genres I do not like, and I try to approach every film with the same enthusiasm as long as it isn't supposed to be terrible like that Pinoccio film. I have a friend, Sean O, who doesn't like animated films and I was rather surprised by that, I mean I love good animation. I'm getting into Japanese animation a lot right now, not like trying to see a bunch of stuff, but mainly Hayao Miyazaki (Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke, My Neighbor Totoro, etc.). He is the master. I am just in general passionate about films, so there are no genres or types I don't like. It's all good, so long as the movie is good. There are awful movies in every genre, great ones in every genre.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by JonathanLB
I watch movies from all countries

What Danish, Italian, French, German, Spanish, Austrian, Swedish movies did you see this or last year and what did you think of them?


there are no genres or types I don't like.

What about dramas that deal with every day life? Or dramas in general. Movies about basic human emotions set in a non fiction situation.

[JonathanLB]

You can try to point out whatever you want, but every post you make here is in defiance of something I have said. What have you contributed to this forum? I may be controversial, I may piss people off here and there, but I add my opinions and am not afraid to have them shot down or contradicted.

First question: the countries you mentioned do not have active film industries that produce the type of quality that we do or that Japan has, so I, like every other critic in the United States, focus only on the best films from foriegn countries. If I hear of a great foreign film, I make an effort to see it, and I definitely am all for studying foreign film and really giving every filmmaker a chance no matter where he is from (and I say "he" because there aren't many girl directors, unfortunately). As much as you may wish it were not true, critics over here cannot afford to see the top 100 best films from every country in the world -- that would border on impossible. Now I've probably seen 50 films from Hong Kong, but other than that, I've seen a small sampling of foreign films and an anxious to see even more. I made an effort to see the critically acclaimed foreign films this year including Monsoon Wedding and Y Tu Mama Tambien, but unfortunately we get very few foreign films in our theaters. VERY few. Maybe 10 that play at Fox Tower all year long, no joke. I try to see what I can and then I rent a few besides the ones I see in theaters, but there are too many great films for me to say, "Ok I'm going to see all of the U.S. movies like other critics, then I'm also going to find the top 10 best movies of the year made in every other country including every small European country." No, I'm sorry, I am only one person. I'm only human. I can only see so many movies per year and that's that. I am doing my best to get through history's most important films and, like it or not, 95% of those are from the United States or otherwise involve U.S. producers (The Third Man is a British film but made the AFI Top 100 for its producer, David O. Selznick, and its American actors, though it had a lot of foreign ones too).

I'm absolutely interested in any great films from any country, that is my point, but can I see it all? No, regretfully, I cannot, and I wish I just had all of the time in the world to do so, I really do, because that's what I love doing -- watching movies! For my birthday, half of the movies I got were foreign. I got 6 Akira Kurosawa films and 1 documentary on him, then for x-mas I got a Russian film (Solaris) and another Japanese film (Rashomon, which is Kurosawa again and a hugely influential picture). I only got 7 movies on DVD for x-mas, 2 were foreign films, 3 were just the Back to the Future Trilogy, 1 was Annie Hall, and the other was... umm... hmm I forget, maybe it was just 6. Plus the Star Trek TNG episodes on DVD, seasons 1-5, but those are not movies.

Now, Dutchy, if you can find me a list of the 100 best and most important foreign movies overall, that would be absolutely awesome because I have been in search of such information now for some time. I have a series of lists that are helping me in my film studies, the AFI Top 100, the AFI Top 400 nominees list, the AFI 100 Thrillers, AFI 100 Passions, AFI 100 Comedy, and then Cinescape's list of top 100 sci-fi films (I've not seen most, by far), Entertainment Weekly's top 100 sci-fi works (with mostly films, some literature), and a few other lists I've managed to get here and there. It's tough finding all of the important movies to see and foreign films especially are a challenge.

In my studies of film and from everything I have read from reviews, filmmakers, books, Internet sources, etc, there really are only perhaps 100 to 200 truly significant foreign movies. There are not 2,000 to 3,000 or whatever as in the United States. Now that is not knocking foreign film by any means, but I have to keep my studies to the movies that are indeed the most important because I am not, ultimately, trying just to see "great movies," but to see movies that changed the film industry and had a substantial impact on the art form. That usually (almost always) includes all of these great films. Well hopefully you understand what I am saying, but certainly I have seen some excellent foreign movies that have had amazing influences on American film. Those ones that did not influence our film or the art form, however, and are not ranked among history's great films I really do not yet have time to see. Perhaps sometime after all of my basic film studies are done, of course, then I can be more free to explore that type of thing.

As for your second question, after my long first response, I am not sure what you mean. If you mean that I do not like movies with ordinary people doing ordinary things, you are right, just like I don't like movies with poor production values and lousy dialogue. So, alas, you are right -- I do have one genre I do not like, which is bad movies. I admit it. I don't like bad movies. I guess I'm a biased critic because if you made me a list of the 100 worst films ever, I really wouldn't be interested in seeing them, I must sadly admit. Now as for dramas, what exactly do you mean? The drama is perhaps the greatest category of film. Most of history's great films are dramas, of some sort, though I'd say every drama fits into several genres. The Best Years of Our Lives is a drama and also somewhat of a "war story," except there is no fighting of course because it's AFTER World War II. I loved that film and I love all great movies like that, but do I want to see absolutely boring characters doing boring things? No, you are right, I don't. I'm not a fan of films with poor plots, so I admit, I discriminate against poorly plotted movies and I don't much like them, unless they have some great special effects, then they can get maybe 1.5 to 2 stars if they don't entirely bore me, but the bad plot part would cost the film most of its rating, that being the key element of film ;)

When you are talking about films I have given poor reviews, such as the awful and atrocious In the Bedroom, I point simply to my objective analysis of the film. Uninteresting characters, poor pacing, uninspiring and unoriginal plot, and ultimately fails to grab the attention of the viewers, despite mostly superb acting. So why does it get a bad review? Obviously, the reasons I mentioned are points of a film that are fatal flaws and with that many fatal flaws, it scored 0 stars on my four star scale. It's that simple. It isn't a complicated matter of me not liking "that type of film" -- I have proven time and again with my reviews of the greatest films in history as decided by the greatest directors in history and the film experts and the screenwriters, who decided the AFI top 100 list, that I appreciate these types of movies, but I have also pointed out very specifically why films like In the Bedroom, Amelie, Gosford Park failed to achieve the desired point of any film. They are not quality filmmaking efforts in my estimation and, although you are free to like them, I am free, as a film fan and critic, to review them as I please especially when I present my points in a logical manner and back them up with my reasons for said opinions. I have done this in every case, so if you disagree with the reviews, that is your right as a free-thinking person and reader, but do not disturb my right to an opinion, either.

You have long said that I don't have respect for other people's opinions, which is definitely not true, but yet you are on my case about films that I didn't like and you loved. So is it not your opinion that I have the right to hate these films? If so, you are being rather hypocritical. I have the right to feel they are terrible films just as much as you have the right to love them. That's the beauty of art -- you can interpret them as you see fit. That's why a movie like, say, Terminator 2 can be incredibly successful but then a movie like My Big Fat Greek Wedding can do just as well, yet both films are entirely different and people who like one may not like the other, despite them both being about equally successful.

So far, you have not proven your vast and superior knowledge of film makes you more qualified to give opinions on these movies. I feel we all have the right to feel as we wish about the films without being constantly told how we are discriminating against any type of movie. I have already proven that I don't do that, if you ever read my site, and I don't answer to you or anyone else. The facts are there, if you choose to ignore them and believe something other than what is there for you to see, then I cannot help you.

Have a nice night.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by JonathanLB
the countries you mentioned do not have active film industries that produce the type of quality that we do or that Japan has

Besides the fact that that's a very sad statement, it is just YOUR opinion. You, apparently, don't like those type of movies, doesn't make them of any less quality. Also, what you say about drama movies. You can't say "I don't like movies with poor production values and lousy dialogue", because that is your opinion, not a fact. By stating that, you're saying you don't like those movies. They're not your type of movies.

About those 6 Akira Kurosawa films, yes, I know you watch Asian movies, but I was referring to European movies.

No, I can't make a list of the 100 best and most important foreign movies overall. I could name quite some from the the top of my head, though. Some examples of highly acclaimed European movies from recent years:

Festen (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0154420) (Denmark)
F-cking Amal (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0150662) (Sweden)
No Man's Land (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0283509) (Bosnia-Herzegovina / Slovenia, among others)
Trois couleurs: Rouge (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0111495) (France)
La Vita è bella (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0118799) (Italy)
Funny Games (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0119167) (Austria)

Anyway, I fully respect your opinion about movies, I only point out that you shouldn't proclaim you like movies from all genres because you clearly don't. You like a certain type of movies, just like most people do. I do, too.

I agree you can never have time to watch every movie you want. Also that quite some foreign (European) movies would be hard to come by. Very true.

By the way, it seems to me you're being in some kind of rush to catch up on all critically acclaimed movies. I can image if you want to be a critic you want to have a certain movie baggage to draw from, but I wouldn't rush it too much. Like you said yourself in an earlier post: it's all about having a passion for movies. Make sure it keeps that way and don't let being a critic take away some of the fun that movie watching is.

[JonathanLB]

I never do that. I enjoy watching movies, although of course I am in a rush to get through all of these films because there are literally thousands of them and I have a limited period of time (3.5 years or so) before I am going to film school and will have only a tiny amount of time, then, to study film. My film studies from a critical perspective will largely be over by that point and a new phase of studying filmmaking will begin, so I want to have the knowledge already built.

I consider myself a fair critic, though, in that I take the time to do things right. I'm rewatching 13 Conversations About One Thing because I felt the first time I saw it I wasn't giving it very good attention and was distracted, so I liked it, but wasn't sure what to give it, and it was important enough and interesting enough to me that it deserves and even requires another viewing. So do I try to see as many movies as I can? Yes, but not at the expense of quality, which is paramount. That's why Citizen Kane got a 16 page review, because I had to study it completely before I felt satisfied.

"They're not your type of movies."

No, there is no "type" here dude, I'm not sure what you are talking about. It's not as though I have said I don't like horror movies, don't like Westerns, or do not like prison movies, or something like that. Identify the TYPE of film I do not like. Why can't you do that? Because there is no type of film I don't like! I enjoy ALL types of films and I do not only like a certain type of film. I like ALL types of films spanning ALL genres and ALL styles.

There is no such genre or type of film as "Dramas with ordinary people doing ordinary things and boring stories and boring characters." There is the drama category, which I love, there are musical dramas, which I'm less a fan of, I admit, but there are some great musicals like Chicago this year is a four star film, to me. I'm a fan of the great musicals, but I'm not so much into the genre as in I wouldn't want to watch 100 musicals personally. But I still very much appreciate that type of film when done well, definitely. There is no type of film relating to the movies I have not liked that you can identify and say, "Here is a pattern, he doesn't like suspense movies!" or "He doesn't like film noir!" or something like that. I truly do enjoy all types of films and I think any movie critic must be open minded like that, otherwise what are they doing reviewing all types of films if they don't really like them?

Greatness has no boundaries. There is no putting a limit or a boundary on what type of movie can be great and saying, "This type of film is not great, no movie that is in this category will ever be great!" No no, any genre or category yields good movies and bad movies, too.

Those films you listed I have not heard of except of course La Vita E Bella.

The problem is that if the films are not historically important, I cannot justify seeing them unless they fit into an area of study I'm trying to cover. That may sound harsh, but I'm trying to focus my film studies because you can imagine that if I just went to the store and picked out random films, I might only get to 5 or 10 truly great films out of 100, and then at the end of 3.5 years or so I'd have reviewed a bunch of films from 1990 on (stupid video stores) that are not even very important. That's why I use lists and awards as some way of trying to hit the big movies so that I never have to be part of a conversation again with a group of, say, 5 people where it's clear the majority have seen a film and I have not. That shouldn't be the case at the end of my studies, but if it ever is, it'll be easy to remedy because I can rent said film and it would probably be a big exception to the rest of my knowledge. I do not see that happening when I am done, though, unless the group is a very elite one of film students or something ;) In that case, it's all good.

All I can tell you, Dutchy, is that my movie reviewing (of the non-new releases) is an attempt to see as broad of a movie base as I possibly can and I will make every effort to see the most important and significant films from all of these countries that I can. I have to realize now that even through nearly 4 years of incredibly hard work, I'll never be where I want to be and will always have more to learn, but that's ok as long as I can come close.

As for my comment about these countries not turning out as many fine quality movies, it's an opinion shared by most of the world I would say. The United States is the center for movies and we do produce the most of them per year. We have the biggest industry and our films dominate overseas box offices. While gems come from all countries, we have the highest number of truly excellent films that arrive to theaters here, even though a lot of them, sadly, play only in a few hundred theaters and don't receive the huge releases of, say, Sorority Boys ;)

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by JonathanLB
No, there is no "type" here dude, I'm not sure what you are talking about. It's not as though I have said I don't like horror movies, don't like Westerns, or do not like prison movies, or something like that. Identify the TYPE of film I do not like. Why can't you do that?

I already told you (several times before also, actually):

"What about dramas that deal with every day life? Or dramas in general. Movies about basic human emotions set in a non fiction situation."


There is no such genre or type of film as "Dramas with ordinary people doing ordinary things and boring stories and boring characters."

Yes, there is. Those are exactly the type of movies you don't like. I'm not talking genres here, I'm just summarizing a type of movies that you don't like.

I'm sure you're interested in all kinds of movies and willing to see them, but you can't say you like them all.


As for my comment about these countries not turning out as many fine quality movies, it's an opinion shared by most of the world I would say. The United States is the center for movies and we do produce the most of them per year. We have the biggest industry and our films dominate overseas box offices. While gems come from all countries, we have the highest number of truly excellent films that arrive to theaters here, even though a lot of them, sadly, play only in a few hundred theaters and don't receive the huge releases of, say, Sorority Boys

Box office figures are facts. Yes, American movies make the most money. Says nothing about their quality, though. Technically they're usually well crafted, better than European, I dare too say. Doesn't make them any more interesting or better. Those dramas "with ordinary people doing ordinary things and boring stories and boring characters", as you call them, are very well made in Europe. Actually, they're made well anywhere, since it doesn't take a whole lot of money to make them. American movies excel in all sorts of movies, action type of movies being a major category, like Minority Report, for instance. I absolutely LOVED that movie. I also loved Kissing Jessica Stein, for instance. I bet you liked Minority Report a lot better than the latter. It's all a matter of taste and opinion, and not about facts.

[CMJ]

Geez Dutchy...it seems like all you do is lie around and try and contradict Jonathan. You rarely post anything else here anymore.

Now I'm not saying Mr. Bowen isn't sometimes on the edge, gosh I know I've thought about ripping into Jonathan before...but I rarely do. The vast majority of your posts Dutch over the last 6-12 months have been soley for dissing Jonathan. Does he sometimes deserve it? Perhaps....but unless you want to add some more variety to your posts, you begin to come off looking like a troll.

The Mangmt.

[JMK]

Agreed. If you want to make the forum a board for ragging on one person in particular and not really contribute to the rest of the forums, use the private messaging system. :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

LOL, unfortuntely Dutchy isn't the only one, *cough look *cough at Star Trek *cough Thread *cough. Not going to point any fingers though ;)

[Dutchy]

Okay, I get the message. :)

[Dutchy]

By the way, yes, take a look at this thread (http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25825&perpage=50&pagenumber=2) as well. It's not like I'm the only one here. Okay, but they also contribute to other topics. Umm... gee, isn't that Two Towers movie doing great at the box office? :p

[Jedi Master Carr]

I would rather not bring that thread up, I have warned everybody not to bicker there and if it continues I might just end up closing that thread I would prefer to prevent a flame war. You can post in it but anything else besides Star Trek lets not talk about.

[JonathanLB]

Thank you for someone else pointing out what I was saying, too. Your non-partisanship is appreciated...

I am not posting in the Star Trek thread anymore, lol, I gave up that battle. You win some, you lose some.

Dutchy, hehe, of course I liked Minority Report better than Kissing Jessica Stein -- Ebert ranked MR the best movie of 2002, so I'm not alone. I'd say probably 80% of critics thought MR is a better film. Although I didn't dislike Jessica Stein. I thought it was remarkably professional for an independent film. It looked really professional, the acting was impressive, to me, it had some good dialogue here and there, although ultimately it failed as a comedy and to me did not really deliver a message that interested me or that I felt was worthy of the film. It was a decent effort, neither bad nor good, and certainly overrated. Worth a look though for frequent moviegoers.

Ok anyway gotta get back to watching something here.