The Two Towers - a short review

[Shawn]

First of, it was terrific. As if anyone was expecting any differently. But I'd hesitate to say that it was better than the first film. There was more meat to TTT, there's no arguing that. But I think, to me, FOTR felt more like storytelling, where TTT felt more like just a movie. The beginning of the film was a bit rough, I think, and it did drag at some parts - briefly - but by the end, it was definitely well worth the journey getting there. A few spoilers:

The Ent's assault on Isengard was terrific. Watching the massive creatures hurl boulders and unleash the flood upon Orthanc was breath-taking.

The arguments between the Smeagol / Gollum personas were brilliant, are fairly comical (whether or not that was intentional). The CG on Gollum, btw, was fairly amazing. At times, you could tell the other characters were standing on a blue screen. But when Gollum was by himself, he looked fantastic.

Overall, if you've seen the first one, there's obviously no reason not to see TTT, unless you absolutely hated it with a passion.

[Marcus Telcontar]

:D

[Oriadin]

Oooo, im all excited now :D

[Figrin D'an]

I'll throw out a few quick rants and raves myself before I collapse and fall asleep.

- Amazing, incredible, breathtaking... pick whatever similar adjectives you wish... they all apply in some way... just go see it, as my taxed and tired mind's description will do it little justice.

- Gandalf and the Balrog... great way to open the film, taking a favorite scene from Fellowship and revisiting it from Gandalf's perspective. That, tied in with the defeat of the Balrog on Zirak Zigul... very well done.

- King Theoden's portrayal was excellent. The transformation from his Wormtongue/Saruman-poisoned self to the true king of Rohan was perfect. For the rest of the film, he was exactly what I envisioned Theoden to be. Kudos for a solid acting performance.

- Helm's Deep was, as expected, fabulous. The addition of the Elves didn't get in the way, except for Haldir's death, for which the jury is still out, IMO. Gimli provided many nice touches of humor to an otherwise very tense and dramatic battle sequence,

- The Ents storming Isengard might have been even better than Helm's Deep. I really liked the entire sequence, and the breaking of the dam to flood the caverns, while Saruman looked on helpless, really provided a contrasting tone to the dark forboding that permeated the other major events in film.

- Gollum/Smeagol, based upon not only visuals, but the sheer depth of his character portrayal, completely rose above my expectations. Major kudos to WETA, and to Andy Serkis, for truely bringing Gollum to life.

- My only major complaint... Faramir. This is not the Faramir from the book. In the end, the same decision is made, to let Frodo and Sam continue their quest into Mordor, but the method of arrival at the decision differs greatly between book and film. The scenes in Osgiliath were well done, and it sets up a little pep-talk given by Sam quite well... but they still trouble me because they accentuate Faramir's differences from book to film. Needless to say... I'll need to see it again to determine if there were any missed subtleties that may change my mind.



More later... I'm too tired to think further at the moment...

[JediBoricua]

So it is 8:07AM, I part in an hour for my 12:00 showing.

The hour draws late, and Boricua the pink(wtf?) rides to the multiplex to watch TTT with his friends.

[JonathanLB]

Best movie ever made.

lol, j/k, but TTT is second only to Star Wars this year I think I am going to say. For me, The Count of Monte Cristo and Simone are about equal to TTT, but I also saw them 2 times each, at least (4 times for Monte Cristo) and I still must see TTT again. They are such different films it is hard for me to compare, but I like the screenplay better for The Count of Monte Cristo, it's just that without the epic nature of the film and such a sizeable budget, of course it really fails to have any great action, like TTT. So in that case, I'm afraid it just isn't that type of film.

As for TTT, the Battle of Helm's Deep is one of the greatest battles ever put to film, historical or fantasy, and there are a few moments specifically that were captivating that I will leave for my review and not spoil anything here.

There is a great bit of dialogue at the end of the movie, too, and I won't spoil it but if you saw the film, I liked that part, hope you guys did too :)

I have no complaints about the movie. It was as nearly perfect as any film could be. Better than FOTR in some ways, but I again think saying "better" is just stupid because it doesn't apply. It's ONE epic story, like Star Wars, one part isn't better or worse than another, they are just parts of the same story. I happen to enjoy TTT a bit more than FOTR even, if that is possible (!), just as I enjoyed AOTC a little bit more than each of the other SW films, but I found it to be equal in quality.

LOTR is really the only other time besides Star Wars that an epic saga has been put to film with each part really depending on the others as one larger story. I really like that. Even Harry Potter has a lot more completion than LOTR and Star Wars.

Not to compare, but I still think it's remarkable that the SW films manage to be equally as epic as either LOTR film in significantly less time (45-50 minutes less). It's great editing, IMO.

I'd say that TTT had the year's best cinematography. Nothing else can compete. Even AOTC has too much digital cinematography to compare to TTT's beautiful scenery, which is no fault of Star Wars, it's just a totally different type of movie that doesn't have the same need for these "natural" vistas, but instead relies on technological/futuristic places like Coruscant and Kamino.

There are a few really great lines in TTT, too. Overall I have never really thought the LOTR films are as quotable as they are just overall great examples of amazing storytelling. Star Wars has a lot more great quotes whereas LOTR's dialogue serves the overall visual plot or something, I am not sure how to say it because I'm so tired.

Anyway, great film, I wish it would win best picture, but I know the Oscars are too stupid. A nomination would be nice.

[Dae Jinn]

:cry

I wanna see it :( The Toronto Sun has been having articles about the film most of the week, and yesterday they had one that showed how they did all Gollum stuff (I'm not sure if it was a blue screen -- I read somewhere that they had Serkis there and just removed him with computers.)
damn, it sounds so good...

[Loki Ahmrah]

Three hours! JUST THREE HOURS LEFT!!! :D

[Mr. Happy]

7 hours for me :)

[Quadinaros]

1. I loved it
2. I have no problem saying I enjoyed it more than FOTR
3. My second favorite movie of the year...;)
4. See it now!!

[sirdizzy]

heres my review

Movie Review: The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (2002)
Action/Adventure, Science Fiction/Fantasy and Drama 2 hrs. 59 min
MPAA Rating: PG-13 for epic battle sequences and scary images
Starring: Elijah Wood, Sean Astin, Viggo Mortensen, Ian McKellen, Christopher Lee
Directed by: Peter Jackson

A year ago the journey of a young Hobbit named Frodo Baggins and an evil ring of power premiered with the first of trilogy in Fellowship of the Ring. Frodo a pint sized hero was given a monstrous task to take the ring of power right in the enemies territory in attempt to destroy it and save humanity. Along the way he gained a motley group of characters to help him from the wizard Gandalf, to an exiled king Aragorn, from Elves, Dwarves and Man, even help from his own kind Hobbits. Along the way they were faced with many perils and even some of their members were killed or lost. When we last saw them their fellowship had broken apart and Orcs had captured two of the Hobbits. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli will continue their hunt for their lost friends in this movie while Sam and Frodo will travel alone to Mordor to try and destroy the ring. But all is not well in the world of Middle Earth as the evil sorcerer has sat out to destroy the kingdom of Rohan and destroy mankind. Saruman has made a pact with the dark lord himself and is doing his bidding, as their two towers are untied in the destruction of all that is good. The fellowship is drawn into the war with Saruman and may just be the saving grace for Rohan. While Merry and Pippin become crucial parts of the war as they will enlist the help of the Ents a treelike people that until now had tried to avoid the war. And through it all the most important part is played by Sam and Frodo as they battle their way to Mordor to destroy the ring. Along the way they will enlist the most unlikely of help the former ring bearer Gollum himself as he will be their guide in the treacherous journey.

One of the main differences between this movie and its predecessor is how they hold or in a lot of cases ignore the text that created this wonderful world. In Fellowship the movie was more likely to ignore large portions of the book while staying more true to the text itself. In the Two Towers almost all the parts of the book are included but Peter Jackson takes a lot more liberties with the text making quite a few changes. While purist to the books may be disappointed with a lot of these changes, the changes have a tendency to help the flow of the movie and keep the story enthralling though out. Also a few of the changes added some extra drama and excitement. Some of them may have not been necessary and can be slightly melodramatic but as a whole they were usually worthwhile contributions.

The best part of the movie has to be the CGI Gollum who is just absolutely amazing. He seems to capture the movie and the audience and just draw them in unlike any of the other characters. He also was used for a lot of humorous scenes including an absolutely hilarious scene were he argues with himself about his role in the movie. The movie does strike a more humorous note as well with other characters like Gimli who becomes somewhat of comic relief in the movie. The action and adventure again was the most stupendous, awe inspiring of any movie in a long time maybe even ever. The movie is an epic saga that sprawls the senses and draws one in with one action packed adventure ride after another. The acting again for the movie is quite good not the best you might ever see but the plot and the action almost make the actors a mute point at times. Viggo Mortensen who plays Aragorn again steals the show as his broody warrior is acted to perfection. Its hard to not mention Gollum along with the other actors even though he is completely computer generated but Andy Serkis who does the voice and body movements of Gollum is a show stealer. The only flaw I still find in the acting is still Hugo Weaving who plays Elrond he just does not fit the part. And some of the deviations from the book in this movie made him an even worse character then the previous film. This movie is unlike any other out there as for three hours it will draw you and entice you with its magic and grand scale. This is a must see for all those people who love movies, action, adventure, epics and just incredible works of art.
4.5 stars out of 5

[Darth Viscera]

Wooh! great movie! I wish I could have seen it a second time, but with the lines, I was lucky to have been able to see it a first time.

[AmazonBabe]

I dressed up as Arwen and went to see it last night at midnight... and I came out of that theater breathless and speechless. For me, they did a hell of a job putting book to film, and I couldn't have been more pleased with the outcome.

As of now, I am counting down the hours (again) for ROTK. But, until then, I'll just count down the itty bitty hours to the next time I can see TTT (which will be many times, I assure you)! :D



On a side note... Legolas on a horse *drool-melt-swoon*... I'm in love with that Elf all over again (not becuase he was so gorgeous lookin on that horse, but because of everything else he participated in in the movie)! And now he's gracing my desktop once again! :D :rollin

[Kyle Krogen]

it was sooooo good and funny and everything else and i want to see it again.............and again...............and again...................and when its on DVD ill buy it and stay up all night watching it

[JediBoricua]

I just have to say that this movie has the potential to become my favorite movie.

Best movie of the year by far. It deserves every award, nod, good review, anything! My god I will have to see this more than 5 times.

[Dae Jinn]

Originally posted by AmazonBabe
On a side note... Legolas on a horse *drool-melt-swoon*... I'm in love with that Elf all over again (not becuase he was so gorgeous lookin on that horse, but because of everything else he participated in in the movie)! And now he's gracing my desktop once again! :D :rollin

^_^; Glad I'm not the only person who changed their desktop...But mine is Viggo...Maybe I can get my sister to go with me tomorrow night :\

[Jedi Master Carr]

I saw it a few hours ago and I loved it, second best movie of the year and really its very close between that an AOTC, I hate to compare the two really because I liked them almost equally. As far as the movie best part I agree was Helms Deep the battle was amazing, I particularly liked Legolas and his archery skills they got him alot of applause in my theater especially him sliding down the stairs on a shield shooting, that was cool. I also liked the Ents attack on Isengard that was terrific too, I guess we will have to wait till ROTK to see Saurman's demise. I also liked King Theoden's performance the actor did a great job and so did Viggo he was very heroic in this one, Brad Dourif, he was vicious ad the evil Grima Wormtounge. Ian Mckellan, was great again as Gandalf. I also liked Gollum the characters is the most twisted of the book and movies and incredibly interesting. Overall I have to see it again to appreciate it more. I also would not say its better than FOTR, it defintely has more action which was great but its really equally to me because its part of one story.

[Sanis Prent]

You'll have a certifiable non fanboy review in 4 hours :)

[Loki Ahmrah]

But until then, another fanboy review of sorts.

My first impression is that this film isn't as good as "Fellowship of the Ring" but not by much at all. I am also deliberately not trying to get swept up in hype mode. The Helm's Deep sequence was the most gripping and utterly enthralling scene in movie history for me. The build up was almost unbearable; my legs were jumping, my rear thrust back into the seat as if preparing for the first plummet on a rollercoaster because this is the real deal. Best battle sequence I have ever seen.

Something that gave me great joy was Gollum, what a fully satisying character; absolutely wonderful. He was a real person, Andy Serkis deserves a great amount of credit for this increadible creation. He and more specifically Gimli brought the comic relief and it was of the most humerous quality too. I found Gimli hilarious.

My only real dissappointment was the ending. I didn't find it particularly thrilling and was somewhat of an anti-climax whereas some argue that the first film suffered from the same problem (which I disagree with). It was odd how the endings to both halves of the book weren't reached unlike in Fellowship when Boromir meets his end and the story had been extended to include that.

Again, beautiful cinematography. Although there weren't any wonderful locations save for Helm's Deep, I found Edoras rather dull. So I was dissappointed, but unsuprized due to my knowledge of locations in the book, after all, FOTR had Hobbiton, Bree, Rivendell, Cahadras, Moria, Lothlorien, the Argonath and Amon Hen. On the other hand, "The Two Towers" has Edoras, Helm's Deep, the Dead Marsh and Osgiliath. But that can't be helped really.

On the whole though, an absolutely breath-taking piece of cinema. Favourite film of the year by far.

[Taylor Millard]

GRR You guy suck...TTT was sold out at hte theater near my house.

I'll just go tomorrow afternoon...Grrrrrrrrrrr

[ReaperFett]

(not becuase he was so gorgeous lookin on that horse, but because of everything else he participated in in the movie)!
I still dont get this Legolas thing. He was a 2D character in FOTR, all he did was all this fancy fighting. Yet he gets all the recognition? I feel sorry for Sean Bean, most seem to forget his great performance.

[Dae Jinn]

it's only cos Sean Bean isn't hot...I actually like him in FOTR, he did a great job as Boromir. But Mr Mortensen...:D

[Nathanial K'cansce]

Wasn't sold out at the theater I went to.. :D

All I have to say = wow. Loved it. Loved the portrayal of Gollum. Find that to actually be my favorite aspect of the movie.. besides the Ents. I was surprised at how deep that character really is.

Gimli was hilarious. Brought the comic relief throughout the entirety of the film. That, and his interaction with Legolas during the battle of Helm's Deep.

Stunning effects and beautiful story. Might have to go out and read the book(s) one day.

[Dae Jinn]

I just have to say.......I really hate you guys :)


j/k but you're making me wanna see this movie so much more :cry

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Ok I saw it at 11 am this morning. We arrived at a little after 10, and there was already about twenty people in line. ^_^; The theatre ended up being about 85-90% full. The seats in the front were free, as well as a few in between people.

I loved the movie. I was a little disappointed at how Gimli was reduced to mere comic relief, but, in the book, that is really what he was.... His contest with Legolas about who killed the most orcs was wonderfully entertaining in the book, and I was thrilled to see it on film. Also the "toss me" part was hilarious!

I was talking to Rognan, and I was trying to determine my favorite part of the movie. Helms Deep was...awesome. And I felt that the inclusion of the Elves was okay...but in the end, it appeared that all of the Elves had died in battle. How horrible! I almost cried when they showed up though...and then Haldir died... :\

The Dead Marshes were masterfully done. The Black Gates were...formiddable!! I loved the trolls that opened the gate...incredible, and really helped the massiveness of the gates to hit home.

Gollum was...easily the most impressive CG character I've ever seen. I loved the scene between Smeagol and Gollum....humorous, but slightly terrifying at the end, when Gollum talks about "We'll let her do it." So, no Shelob, but She'll be a nice addition to the beginning of RotK.

All in all I could go on and on about the Ringwraiths, the Oliphants, the men of Gondor, Gollum in the forbidden pool...blahblahblah...etc etc

In a nutshell...completely enjoyable. Different from the first, haven't decided which one is "better."

[Darth Viscera]

Wait a second-wasn't there supposed to be a Smeagol/Deagol flashback scene in this movie?

[Figrin D'an]

There was supposed to be a Boromir/Aragorn flashback as well, but it got cut. Hopefully, we'll see both on the EE DVD set

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Hooray for EE!! I finally saw the Fotr:EE and I LOVED IT!

Gollum/Smeagol reminded me a lot of the Green Goblin mirror scene in Spiderman. Or the animated short in front of a Bug's Life, of the old man playing chess against himself. It was great. :D

[Admiral Lebron]

HOLY MOLY!!!! I LOVE THAT FILM!!!

I must say, the gollum was truly a magnicifent character. He was so deep and funny. His simplicity at times was hilarious. I was disappointed in the fact they didn't show Gandalf going to Isengaurd and putting Saruman in his spot. Oh well. :\

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Lebron, that doesn't happen until RotK

[JediBoricua]

The Gollum/Smeagol scene blew the Green Goblin scene out of the water. I thought that scene in SM was one of the worst in the film, but the Gollum and Smeagol struggle was so well portrayed that thinking of it brings a smile to my face. (God I sound like such a fanboy...oh well)


Anyway something interesting I found.

http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/imageattack/2002/12/imageattack20021217.html

[Lilaena De'Ville]

No, I thought it blew it out of the water too, just it reminded me of it.

[Ryla Relvinian]

Oh yes, my prescious. I've seen TTT, and it is a beautiful thing. My Eowyn pics should be up sometime...

Anyone else seen it?

[Morgan Evanar]

Yus.

Pwn.

[Nathanial K'cansce]

Yes sis, I liked it.

[Jehova Eaven]

Curse you Xaxor, curse you DT. curse you Helenious. The entire time during the movie I was thinking about this place. Grr! :)

[Ryla Relvinian]

:lol yah, me too. Good thing we don't have any Ent-Jedi...

[Marcus Telcontar]

Lil, Lebron is correct. In the books, it's TTT. Who knows if it will be in ROTK yet. Hope it is, cause it's my favorite bit of TTT

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah but in the book isn't it Grimma Wormtounge that does him in?

[Marcus Telcontar]

Treebeard the Jedi??????

[Diego Van Derveld]

This is my take on things. I have not read the LotR books, unless you count getting bored 50 pages into FotR. I enjoyed the hobbit, but the amount of blah that Tolkien has to inject into the beginning of Fellowship makes getting into it a chore, so I shelved it and went to read more pressing things.

That being said, I thoroughly enjoyed both FotR and TTT. Comparing the two is a difficult manner, as both are incomplete portions of a larger story, that are not meant to stand on their own accords. For a watered down comparison, I'll suffice it to say that I enjoyed FotR quite a bit more than TTT. Sure, the action in TTT is jaw-dropping, and a lot of fun, but...I'm left wanting something more.

The Good:

Gollum: Wow...I'm impressed. Excellent work on the CG, though I won't go as far as some have in suggesting an academy award. The acting and character development here were true bright spots of the movie.

Gimli and Legolas: Good comedy support here. The kill counts were a good bit of laughs in a dark battle, and Gimli's grumbling is good for a lot of giggles.

Helm's Deep: For the most part, this was a very well done battle, and I was impressed with most elements of it. The Orcs using Roman shield interlocks was a moment of grins for me.

Opening scene with Gandalf and the Balrog: A very important scene to transition with, and done nicely.

Aragorn, Samwise, Frodo: the only characters in the movie with any real characterization to speak of.

The Bad:

Ents: Animated driftwood. The only way those things are walking is if they are tree zombies. The texture work is spot-on, but just their overall look is lacking, and not very impressive. If Pete has any aspiring botanists working for him, remind him that most living trees have leaves.

Arwen: Window dressing, and nothing more. I was really expecing her to be fleshed out.

Eowyn: Even WORSE window dressing. She was a glorified extra. If you sum up Eowyn and Arwen here, you might get Padme in AotC. Sure, her lines were bad, but...she had lines at least.

Gandalf, Faramir, Elrond, Galadriel, Pippin, Merri, and other good guys I'd rather not spell: Fluff. They were in the background and thats the best they could do.

Saruman: I really missed a focal-point villain here. The evil white wizard was little more than a cameo, and Saurron was far less than that. The Wraiths were in the backdrop, but that can be understood.

Various special effects blunders: The flying ring wraiths looked REALLY bad. The wyrms they rode were fine, but for some reason, the superimposed shot of them flying over Gondor looked like a B movie shot. The wargs looked like they could have had some work, but they weren't bad per se. I didn't like the explosion at Helm's deep, because it seemed a bit fake, and there is one really insignificant part where a ladder falls back into the orcish hordes. CG and AI driven as they are, I would have still expected them to react to a falling ladder, and attempt to move. They didn't...and it irked me a little.


So there's a non-fanboy review. Did I like it? Damn right. Very fun movie that was action packed from Point A to Point B. Was it the best I've seen this year? No. Was it better than Fellowship? No. Will I see it again? You're damn right I will. Enjoy it, its good.

[Estelle Russard]

Quote from ReaperFett:

"I feel sorry for Sean Bean, most seem to forget his great performance. "



Not me, Fett. Sean Bean is a great actor and I was more than dismayed at his loss in LOTR. Character actors like him are always such a boost to any story.

I have not yet read all the books and will get to see TTT on Saturday.

I DID however see the "Making of" special on TTT and the Gollum creating was amazing.

The guy actually acted all the parts and then the digital was imposed over him. He did so much work, yet not one snippet of the real man will be seen on film....Kinda reminds me of another great character - of course I mean Darth Vader.

Here are ppl that love their role and give so much to a movie, despite getting the glory they deserve.

[Dae Jinn]

That would be awesome...

*makes Ent noises*Hu Hoom... :)

[Live Wire]

well to make a long story short I saw it at midnight and I loved it. Im trying not to compare it to the first one becuase its not two seperate movies. Its books 3 and 4 of a continuing story. While I loved it and the action was great and it was a great experience there were a lot of issues I had with it.

The ents should have looked more like trees though I did enjoy seeing them tear up isengard. Eowyn was reduced to a background character when she is really the main female character of the movie.

The scenes with Aragorn and Arwen were a waste of time. While I loved what they did with the arwen character in the first one they really didn't need her in this movie and the time could have been better spent in putting something in there that was actually in the book. I mean come on now shes not even in the story until the last book!!

and what was with the whole eowyn wormtongue thing?~!?! that was just kind of gross. Legolas was amazing in the movie! Though his friendship with gimili is really downplayed. As well as the change that aragorn is starting to go through as far as accepting that he is the king. That needs to be emphasized more.

and how dare they kill haladir like that!!!!


Faramir was nothing like he was in the book!!!! That was just wrong. Gollum/smeagol was beautifully done but in creation and in rendition. He was exactly like he was in the book and I appreciated that.

The movie should have ended where the book ended. I think jackson was trying to go with a more uplifting ending but the bottom line is its not supposed to be. The end of TTT or books 3 and 4 however you look at it, is dark! Its depressing and its one hell of a cliffhanger and we didn't get that. I kind of felt like the movie didn't really start and didn't really end and I think its because of what they left out of the book and also the fact that its the middle of the story and not a seperate story.

All in all its a must see movie but watch the first one again before you go see it.

[Duncan B. Moore]

Haven't seen it yet but I have to disagree with the whole Sean Bean performance thing. I liked him as Boromir. Liked him better in Don't Say A Word though.

[Diego Van Derveld]

Good. Not as much as FotR though.

And somebody water the Ents, please...for their sake!

[Dae Jinn]

:cry

I loved the Ents in the book...*waters them all*

[imported_Terran Starek]

Excellente. :D That's all I have to say, and I said it in Spanish.

Everybody who has posted have all expressed interesting and equally entertaining positions. I am no critic and, refusing to be one, I just thought I would share what I liked. All of it was very well done, and I felt that it sustained the same dramatic storyline it was going for. The book, in a movie sense, would be difficult to make--I mean, it has so much battling and action that it is hard to keep up with.

Gandalf was portrayed beautifully. When The White Wizzard rode in on his horse (can't remember his name, Lord of all Horses) it brought such a great emotion out of the viewer. You can't help but love the guy. And the 'excercism' of King Theodin (sp?) was very cool.

Here's the million dollar question: what was my single favorite part? Well, after careful thought, I will definitely need 3 or 4 more theatre viewing before deciding. :) But, if I had to choose now, it would be Legolas' flowing mount onto his horse when Theodin and crew meet the wolf-riders. Not only was the move just super-cool, it looked great on film.

[Diego Van Derveld]

The White Wizzard rode in on his horse (can't remember his name, Lord of all Horses)

Shadowfax, I believe.

[Dae Jinn]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
Wait a second-wasn't there supposed to be a Smeagol/Deagol flashback scene in this movie?

I read Jackson has it included in the rough cut of ROTK...


And.....:cry I wanna seeeeeeeeeee it !

[Jeseth Cloak]

They were the coolest ones in the movie...

[Sanis Prent]

Now, shall I merge this with the TTT thread in the box office forum, to curb redundancy?

[Marcus Telcontar]

Shadowfax is correct.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

The only problem with merging threads is now I have no idea who is talking to who about what. >_<

[Helenias Evenstar]

I am so looking forward to seeing The Two Towers.

[Figrin D'an]

A few more thoughts....


- Aragorn started to seem a little more kingly in this one, but not as much as I expected. He does start to really think of himself as a member of the race of Men, though, rather than an exiled wanderer that was taken in by the Elves. I expect to see some even more significant changes to him in ROTK.

- The differences between Merry and Pippen start to become more apparent, and more indicative of Tolkien's text. Both are care-free in many ways, but while Pippen is quite naive, Merry has a healthy amount of common sense. It shows when they are with Treebeard and the other Ents.

- The Black Gates were very impressive. The trolls opening them was a nice touch. And finally, we get to see the camouflaging power sew into the Elven Cloaks given to the Fellowship. Very nice little addition.

- The "future" scene between Aragorn and Arwen, portraying Aragorn's death, the fading of Gondor and Arwen wandering to forest where Lothlorien once stood, was great. That was pulled directly from the Appendices, and presented all but verbatim. The voice-over from Elrond wasn't bad... it didn't get in the way, and it provided for the transition to Galadriel's VO (which was a little much, IMO). The other Aragorn/Arwen sequence was kind of pointless. I would have much rather heard Aragorn describe Arwen to Eowyn... it could have made for some more poignant dialogue between the two.

- I really wanted to see Gandalf casting down Saruman's staff, Wormtougue throwing the Palantir to the ground, and Pippen's subsequent fascination with it. I guess that will have to wait until ROTK.

- Thankfully, the Wargs didn't look completely like rabid hamsters. I always envisioned them as much more wolf-like, but they didn't look horrible, so I'm not going to complain too much.

- Absolutely loved the "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit" scene. It was perfect. The dialogue between Gollum and Sam was exactly like the book.

- Watching the charge of the White Rider and the Riders of Rohan into the Uruk-Hai lines was simply awesome. The whole "Eomer-banishment" thing bugged me a little, but it set up this scene very well. No huorns, but I'm not sure the main audience would have really understood them anyway.

- Eowyn's additions didn't detract from the rest of the story, which made me quite happy. They did an effective job of showing her fondness of Aragorn, and set up her character fairly well for her role in ROTK. It would have been difficult to accomplish this had the book been closely followed regarding her character development. A change, to be sure... but in the context of the film, it works well.

- Grima was very well-portrayed. The tear he shed upon seeing Saruman's army was a little cheesy, but this was made up for by his dialogue with Eowyn. A good demonstration of the power given to him by Saruman, but it also accentuates his desire for her. A nice addition, IMO.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I thought that the one sided romance between Eowyn and Aragorn was very well portrayed. It wasn't too much, and showed her growing infatuation with him perfectly.

[Diego Van Derveld]

Unfortunately, thats about all Eowyn was good for.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Just wait. :mischief

[Diego Van Derveld]

Thats what people said about Arwen, too :\

[Lilaena De'Ville]

They did? Eowyn seriously gets better in the next one. At least, she *should.* Arwen isn't even really mentioned in TTT as far as I recall, but its been a while since I've read it.

[Figrin D'an]

Eowyn has a much more active role in the remainder of the story than does Arwen. She will do some things to add some more depth to her character.

Had they gone strictly with the "book" character of Eowyn, she would have had all of 4 lines, only 2 with Aragorn, and she would not have been present at all once Edoras was evacuated. So, it's a noticable addition from my perspective, and a welcome one in the context of the film.

[Diego Van Derveld]

The problem is, they were showing practically every scene she was in during the preview...and it gave a false impression.

[ReaperFett]

Charley, I think it's a conspiracy. All those that have read the book are trying to fool us :)

[Salem Ave]

Ah, I can't wait to see this on Saturday :) !


They did? Eowyn seriously gets better in the next one.

From what Miranda Otto said in an interview, she gets a lot more screen time in the third movie, with lot's of sword fighting. I've not read the books, so...

[Jackson DeWitt]

Its a good movie, I just wish they could've made it 30 minutes longer to squeeze in some more characterization. There's just too much stuff to do in it, even for a 3 hour movie. It didn't drag a bit, but I was really wanting to get into the characters more.

[JMK]

I just got back and all I can say is wow. Although what was the deal with Faramir dragging the hobbits and Gollum back to Osgiliath about? That bugged me quite a bit. And Aragorn falling off a cliff???? I understand that making little changes are necessary, but I didn't see the point of that one, especially since it lead to a pointless sequence with Arwen. Other than those 2 things, I LOVED the movie. Probably my favorite of the year so far. I do wish we did get to see more of Saruman and Sauron, but seeing the Ents trash Isengard was priceless!!

I think I may skip out of my staff party early to go watch it again!

[JonathanLB]

There is a lot of hoopla about Gollum/Smeagle, and yes he was a great, very well done CG character, but everything Lucasfilm has done in the last two Star Wars films is just as impressive if not more so because it was harder to do back in 1999 and they did it anyway.

Watto was every bit as impressive and realistic as Gollum, but yes, Gollum was well done. I was pleased with that.

I don't like seeing LOTR getting compared to Star Wars when such comparisons don't normally make a lot of sense because you can have both of them! You don't have to like one or the other. I heard E! Online say something idiotic like the Battle of Helm's Deep is better than the battle at the end of AOTC, and they mentioned something about how AOTC's battle was all CG, hahahaha, my god did they really think those orcs were REAL?! Those were not men in costumes in the pullback shots, those were computer generated creations just like anything in Star Wars, obviously. Anyone knows that. Plus, I much prefer the entire battle sequence at the end of AOTC as it climaxes with Yoda fighting and that's unbeatable. It's not as long, sure, but I prefer it. Give me sci-fi wars over sword and sandle battles any day, personally. Still I think The Battle of Helm's Deep is perhaps the most impressive pure fantasy or historical battle I have ever seen. It far surpasses, say, any World War II movie I've seen, hehe.

[ReaperFett]

What, they DIDNT hire 10,000 people, and dress them up as fantasy creatures? I REFUSE TO WATCH IT!



:)

[Sanis Prent]

Still I think The Battle of Helm's Deep is perhaps the most impressive pure fantasy or historical battle I have ever seen. It far surpasses, say, any World War II movie I've seen, hehe.

You are, once again, out of your ever-loving gourd.

Helms Deep, while extremely impressive in the FX department, and extremely action packed, is not one of the best battles I've seen. I mean, when you get down to it...its Whiskey Outpost on Tango Urilla, all over again (Starship Troopers). I mean...replace bugs with Orcs, and add some more eye candy.

But to say its better than any WW2 battle you've seen is really really out there. Normandy (SPR), Normandy (BoB), Carentan (BoB), and Bastogne (BoB) trump it, just off the top of my head. Beyond WW2, you could include the Ia Drang LZ X-Ray incursion from We Were Soldiers.

[Nathanial K'cansce]

But, if I had to choose now, it would be Legolas' flowing mount onto his horse when Theodin and crew meet the wolf-riders. Not only was the move just super-cool, it looked great on film.

Yes, that was very cool, and made me go.. "holy shnikies, batman" but.. i think it could have been done a bit more... realisticly. Don't ask me how, but that move did irk me just a tad.

[Sanis Prent]

I'm glad I'm not the only one, Snack. It looked cool as hell, but I think to do that, you'd have to put Mr. Newton and his laws on pause for about a split second...otherwise, the inertia of that horse's chest would easily surpass the 14 pounds of pressure needed to snap Legolas's elbow joint like a twig. After that, you can forget about shooting arrows.

[Sean Piett]

My favorite scene was the one with the Olliphants. Frodo and Sam just happened to stumble accross a battle - and for me, it showed how much scope this whole war had.

[Admiral Lebron]

You forgot Legolas is an Elf.

[Sanis Prent]

Silly me. I forgot the Elvish power of physics nullification. Thanks Lebron.

[Nathanial K'cansce]

Still though... even Elves need restrictions.

[Sanis Prent]

That must make Anakin Skywalker Elvish too...since by all sense of physical realism, him and his arm should have parted ways on Zam's speeder, or at the least, given the moron a dislocated shoulder.

[Nathanial K'cansce]

Naw, he had the Force to keep it in its socket. :p

[Sanis Prent]

Oh yeah I forgot :) silly me ;)

[JMK]

I think Gollum was far better than what Jar Jar is. Given the amount of time he had onscreen, there's a much greater chance for him to look fake, but he interacted with every person and environment perfectly throughout. Those guys at WETA should be really proud of themselves.

[Morgan Evanar]

Originally posted by JonathanLB
There is a lot of hoopla about Gollum/Smeagle, and yes he was a great, very well done CG character, but everything Lucasfilm has done in the last two Star Wars films is just as impressive if not more so because it was harder to do back in 1999 and they did it anyway.

Watto was every bit as impressive and realistic as Gollum, but yes, Gollum was well done. I was pleased with that.

No. No no no no no no no no. Turds on toast Jon, is that what you have been eating?

Watto pales to Gollum. You could tell he (Watto) was CGI. Easily. Your eyes very obviously aren't trained for it at all. It really comes down to light behavior, and Lucas doesn't do it very well at all. Things just look kinda plasticticy.

Whoever wrote the shaders for Gollum should be gettin a big raise, because the light playing off his skin was perfect.

[ReaperFett]

Watto was obviously CG because he flew ;)


I personally think Watto was great CG, and realistic looking. But there you go :)


its Whiskey Outpost on Tango Urilla, all over again (Starship Troopers).
I loved that scene :)

[JediBoricua]

I think what gives the edge to Gollum versus Jar Jar are his eyes. They were excellent.

Take Yoda for example, we could see him thinking, struggling, meditating. But with Gollum you could see him sad, happy, scared, furious. And the change from Smeagol/Gollum was excellent. The curve of the mouth, and the dillatation of the pupils, subtle moves that made a huge difference.

But Yoda has the edge when interacting with real actors, and I don't mean acting skills. Gollum's greatest scenes were when he had the screen all to himself, yet on Osgiliath and other places he look bad. Yoda on the other hand looks great when talking to real life actors and interacting with them.


I'll have to see the end of AOTC again to see how well the clones compare to the orcs.

[Nathanial K'cansce]

Originally posted by JMK
I think Gollum was far better than what Jar Jar is. Given the amount of time he had onscreen, there's a much greater chance for him to look fake, but he interacted with every person and environment perfectly throughout. Those guys at WETA should be really proud of themselves.

I think the main reason for that was because they actually had the guy who did his voice actually act out all the scenes that Gollum was in. Then, put the CG Gollum over the blue-clad voice Gollum. :)

[JMK]

Ahmed Best did that for Jar Jar too if I'm not mistaken...

[Sanis Prent]

As did I, Fett. Its great for "oohs" and "ahhs", but there aren't really any emotional bonds to it. Saying either is the end-all and be-all of best battles is a bit pretentious, IMO.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well Best was there too, I think the problem with Jar Jar is not that he looks fake, he looks pretty real to me, its the fact he is a bumbling idiot and stepping in dewback dung and the butt of fart jokes that is the problem that people have with him. If Gollum was doing that people would hate him too. I do think Yoda was the best of the CGI characters, but that is just my opinion.

[Nathanial K'cansce]

Yeah, what Carr said.

Best did act, too... but from what I remember.. all he did was stand, walk, and was there for the other characters to get an idea of where to look at when trying to look in his eyes.

I agree that Jarr Jarr was a wonderful creation from a CG standpoint, and the folks at ILM did a great job with how he looked, it's just his character was horrible and the voice annoying. And like i said, he just walked around and stood there.

The guy who played Gollum (can't remember his name) did all the moves that the CG Gollum did (IE: The fish scene(s))

[ReaperFett]

Ahmed Best did that for Jar Jar too if I'm not mistaken...

Yeah, but no reporters mention that. Strange that.

[Sean Piett]

I didn't like Gollum so much as most people. Enternaining, yes, but I didn't enjoy his monolouge.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

No one mentions anything about Jar Jar and Ahmed Best, because we're still trying to ignore the fact the character was so awful.

It doesn't matter who acted him, or how well he was portrayed, the Jar Jar character was a poor addition to TPM and distracted from the story, rather than moving it along.

Gollum, besides being well acted and completely CG, is an amazing character in and of himself. Two thumbs up for Tolkien for inventing him. :D

[ReaperFett]

My point is LD, that they make it out to be something amazing, when it was done three years ago :)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

My point is, this is today. Stop living in the past Fett. ;)

Besides, IMO they did Gollum better than Jar Jar was done. I agree with whoever said that bit about the lighting.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Compare the quality of jar Jar in AOTC to Gollum in TTT if you want a fair geek comparision.

[ReaperFett]

Well, I'd be picky and say it's unfair as one is clothed in a robe.

[Morgan Evanar]

Not really Fett. Light interaction with cloth isn't a simple thing either. After the first film, I found it very hard to pay attention to Jar Jar's character on terms of detail, simply because he's so goddamned annoying. I suppose I could go through AOTC again and look objectively at those scenes, but I've generally found Lucasfilms CG inferior to the stuff in FOTR and TTT.

[ReaperFett]

I am being more supportive of Gollum there btw :)



EP2's best CGI characters was the Kaminoans, IMO. THe cloth there was amazing, but we saw enough of the body to see "structure"

[Marcus Telcontar]

EP2's best CGI characters was the Kaminoans, IMO. THe cloth there was amazing, but we saw enough of the body to see "structure"

I might go with that.

Yoda was pretty good in the main - until the fight. Up to then, you could sell the CG Yoda, but in the fight for me the illusion shatters and it's just a blur of pixels and shaders. You just know this has to be fake.

cant comment further until I see TTT, but of the picture I've seen of Gollum smirking, it's one hell of a creation.

[ReaperFett]

CG Yoda in the fight was good for me because I know it's the force and all. I just feel they could have had him do the jumping occasionally to supplement his fighting rather than the jumping bean that he was.

[Figrin D'an]

Yeah, but Yoda fighting was just fun... :) I don't have a problem with it, even if it did make the CG a little less believable.

Gollum is very impressive... there really isn't anything else to say about it. The believability was amazing.

[Sanis Prent]

Gollum, as well done as he was, didn't have much in the way of nuance. Facial expressions were done in polar extremes, which one could argue is quite in character, and one could just as easily argue as "hamming it up".

Potato, Potatoe, eh...

[Figrin D'an]

I tend to think it's more so to show the differences between the Smeagol and the Gollum sides of his personality. In many ways, he contains polar extremes within him.

[Vega Van-Derveld]

I thought Gollum was excellent :) he had the whole cinema laughing virtually every time he was on screen

[CMJ]

In case anyone cares....

Roeper seemed to be in love with TTT. He didn't retract his review of FOTR but said that film set up TTT to be an great movie. He eagerly awaits ROTK.

Ebert's TV review seemed to be much more positive than his print review.

[JMK]

Yeah, his review of TTT was nothing short of glory personified.

[Jedieb]

I finally got a chance to see TTT this afternoon. I think I would have enjoyed it more if I HADN'T read the book. I found the differences from the novel to be a bit distracting. Aragon and the cliff, Faramir dragging Frodo and Sam along were changes that I didn't think worked that well. I didn't enjoy it as much as FOTR, but it was still a very good film. I think I was partly distracted because I thought it was running too long and I had to pick up the kids from day care. I was worried I was going to be late.

That's enough B&M'ing, this was a great movie. I was probably spoiled because I loved FOTR and I've been going over the 4 disc set since I got my hands on it. I thought the film looked magnificent. I was particulary impressed with the Ents. (I did notice leaves on Treebeard. :) The attack on Isenguard was awesome. Anyone else laugh when the flaming Ent used the rushing water to douse the flames?

Jar Jar, Yoda, and Gollum
All 3 are impressive CGI creations. Jar Jar is probably the least realistic looking of the 3 but that can be attributed to the advances in technology Yoda and Gollum had the benefit of. What makes Jar Jar's character weaker than the other two was Best's vomit inducing performance. Frank Oz is simply a brilliant performer. The guy was a muppet master for goodness's sake! Whoever portrayed Gollum did a great job. I really enjoyed the character and thought it was true to the novel. The character was never a distraction or an annoyance. A great job overall. Best was basically Barney in Star Wars. Great for 3 year olds, but pure torture for most people out of their preschool years. Yeah, I'm oversimplifying it a bit, but you get my point.

[Diego Van Derveld]

I just wish they gave the Ents more foliage. They looked malnourished. I cried :cry

[ReaperFett]

Maybe it was Autumn :)

[Diego Van Derveld]

But all the other trees were lush and green!

I was expecting Treebeard to talk to Merry and Pippin about Saruman and Agent Orange.

[ReaperFett]

Some were Decidious, some werent :)

[Diego Van Derveld]

All looked rather oakish to me.

[ReaperFett]

But this is a land of small people with hairy feet and agents trying to look like Elves :)

[Jedieb]

They looked exactly as I expected them to look. I expected more bark than leaves. Think of them as Ents proud enough to go bald. You can always spot the Ents with leaf pieces. They never look real.

[JediBoricua]

You don't understand, this is all a ploy made by the Rogaine people. Once TTT consolidates as a major worldwide hit, they will re-do Treebeard with lush green foliage and have him made 30 sec ads about Rogaine.

Treebeard showering and shampooing with Rogaine.
Treebeard passing his wooden branches through his newfound mutt.
Treebeard meeting that special she-ent in a fancy restaurant, looking all savy and self-assured, a bright smile on his face!


:rollin

[Diego Van Derveld]

Then I guess he'll...bust a nut ;)

Oh....I kill me sometimes.

[JediBoricua]

:lol

[Admiral Lebron]

They weren't all oak. One was willow. Cos he had dreadlocks. :D

[Sanis Prent]

That's right...there were some weeping willows too.

[Marcus Telcontar]

I found the differences from the novel to be a bit distracting

WHAT changes?!?!

I didnt really notice and I can now say, either do I care. I read TTT last night and today I have waded through the biggest lineups i have ever seen for any movie to see TTT.

Bloody Hell.

OMG.

AIE!

Absolutly gobsmacking brilliant.

I truly fail to see why a "purist" (another word for <smallfont color={hovercolor}>-Censored-</smallfont> I think) would make a fuss. I saw the Faramir of he books onscreen. I saw his expressions, his body language and it all was liek the written word in spirit - maybe not quite like spoken word, but in spirit, it was all there. Blame if you will the forced dumbing down and the hit over the head most moviegoers need to see the point that Faramir was not word for word.

Stuff the purists. Too frigging narrow minded and picky to expand their mind and look past the obvious and see the subtle.

All hail Peter Jackson for a truly gobsmacking moive that somehow was everything he promised and a whole lot more. Yes, I think TTT is a far btter movie that FOTR, I realyl dont know how he managed it, but it is. It's goign to take a few days and a few more screenings (If I can get into a damn theatre at all in the next two weeks) to really come to terms.... but Peter Jackson, thank you for what you have presented to the world.

Do I have any complaints?

No. execpt that I have to wait for ROTK to come. My wofehowever said she can wait - because she does not want it to be over. When ROTK arrives,t here will be no more. And will suck.

But we'll also see the completion of one of the greatest movies of all time. I await Dec 26 2003 with much anticipation.

[JMK]

Just the guy I was waiting to question. Glad you liked it. :)

What was the deal with bringing the ring back to Osgiliath? And Aragorn falling off that cliff? Neither of those were in the book if I remember correctly. And the Elves showing up at Helm's Deep? Marcus, please clarify!

[Jedi Master Carr]

The Purist are mad about the elves the most because they never showed up in the novel. Really the novel is different mostly about Helm's Deep, most of those changes are necessary, but I can see how a purist could get mad because the changes are more radical than the first movie.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Correct, bigger changes in the first moive by far!

Okay, to answer JMK's questions....



a) Ring to Osigilath - I think it's to really make it seen to Sauron that the ring is indeed goignt o Gondor and not be destroyed. You may not pick it up, but in the books, the ring is taken to Ithilien, which is in the outskirts of Gondor. So, you might say the idea or concept of tricking Sauron becomes far more obvious. It also shows Faramir's thought that he would want the ring to go to his father. Interestign Faramir never takes the ring for himself. Really, it's a bit of moive explaination for those who have not read the books or have no deep love or understanding - which is most fo the audience.

b) Aragorn falling off the cliff - well that was interesting. Drama I guess. Hard to believe that the audience at the showing I went to actually thought Aragorn died. Now, I think it had one other benifit - it showed Arwen's love for Aragorn, even after he had basically told her to leave in a previous scene - and now i think of it, it also is a nod to the words of Tolkien about Arwen - how she watched over him from afar with her mind and helped protect him.

Ohhh, now that I consider that scene, that's a rather good way of showing the Farsight of Arwen.

c) The Elves - well I guess we aint goign to see Lorien fight orcs liek they were in the books, so this would be a nod to Lorien fighting against the armies of Darkness too. I rather liked this change myself.

Really, the pruist should accept that this is not the books and certain bits and pieces, hinted at or explained in subsections can not show up directly, but can be included or nodded at with changes like this. No, there were no Elves at Helm's Deep, but how else can you show that Elves were troubled as well and not just left the shores of Middle Earth, seemingly like cowards? And what would you rather, the Lorien elves or Arwen fighting as it was originally rumoured?

Hope to see the Sons fo Elrond in ROTK - and I am now thinking that their arrival will also bring Narsil and close a pretty bloody big plot hole and one of the biggest changes of the books of all. WTF aint there howls about that?!?!?

[Figrin D'an]

I have to disagree...

The differences between the Ring going to the refuge at the Ithilien falls and taking the Ring to Osgiliath are pretty significant, mainly because of the way Faramir behaves in the book as opposed to the film. In the book, he takes the hobbits into his refuge, but there is significant dialogue about the differences between Faramir and Boromir. Once it is discovered that Frodo is in posession of Isildur's Bane, Faramir, while part of him still desires the Ring to help Gondor, makes a conscious decision to not seccumb to that temptation. This is all set up by Sam's comments about Boromir's incessant desire for the Ring. Faramir realizes that the Ring essentially destroyed the Fellowship, and that he must let Frodo continue on his quest.

In the film, once the Ring is discovered on Frodo, Faramir insists on taking the Ring, the hobbits and Gollum to his father. Like his brother, he blindly follows the belief that the Ring can help Gondor defeat the Dark Lord. It isn't until later dialogue, and following the interesting litttle scene in which Frodo nearly hands the Ring to a Nazgul, that Faramir has a change heart and lets the halflings and Gollum go.

The same eventually decision is made, but the path taken to get there really changed Faramir's character development. Instead of Faramir "showing his quality" by resisting the temptation to claim the Ring, he ends up acting very much like Boromir (perhaps a bit less selfish). Faramir is described as being far more reserved and contemplative than his brother. That really didn't show up, IMO, except in the scene at the Forbidden Pool. Perhaps, in ROTK, we will see that side of Faramir emerge (one would hope). But, it wasn't really present in TTT... and that bugged me a little.


Keep in mind... I am far from a purist on these matters. Many of the changes in FOTR, as well as TTT, I felt were very well done. I guess I felt that the Osgiliath scenes were added mainly for action battle purposes, kind of taking the place of Shelob and Frodo's "death" as a closing event for this part of the story. Sam's little pep-talk was a nice touch, but beyond that... Osgiliath just didn't really work for me.

[Marcus Telcontar]

I really have to disagree for to me...

Faramir WAS a contemplative character in TTT. To me, he really didnt seem all that tempted - he was more driven by duty to his father. Even then, I got the impression he was seriously thinking about letting Frodo go before Osigalith. I just dont see the huge differences - and I might add, the discourses between Frodo and Faramir are staggeringly boring in TTT. I always remember page 674 of a early edition LOTR, because it always put me to sleep.

I'll add somethign else - you have this ring that tempts the hell out of everyone and Faramir would just put it aside? Wouldnt that seem out of place that Faramir is resistant to it, when even Gandalf gets tempted?

So, I do see the Faramir from the book of TTT and I can really understand why the chages were done. In a lot of ways, it makes for superior storytellign on screen - remember, yu cant expouse for minutes with discourse, its boring. Osigalith replaces a lot of that discourse in a fairly easily understood bit of film. How can you possibly explain without the pages that Tolkein worte, why Faramir lets the ring go? If the ring seems to have no hold on him, you realyl have a bit of a problem when everyone else seems to be tempted by it.

Hmph. I'm not writing this well. Anyway, point is, I see why, i saw the Faramir of TTT and I believe the changes served to explain the story as well as fill in bits that were forced to be left out. I didnt really see anything outside of Tolkein in Faramir or Osigalith - but I saw little details everywhere that harked back to book 4 constantly. I have to admit, I preferred the movie version over the book.

[ReaperFett]

No, there were no Elves at Helm's Deep, but how else can you show that Elves were troubled as well and not just left the shores of Middle Earth, seemingly like cowards?
Sounds very Elf-y to me though. "Let's let the pathetic humans do this themselves. Reeks of an arrogance we saw in FOTR, where The Agent Elf (Have to find his real name out:)) character said how the human king was the reason the ring got away after HE had led him there, not mentioning the fact that HE could have killed him and done the job himself

[Marcus Telcontar]

No, no, no, no and again NO. You just dont understand the Elves and the sorrow they have. Isildur is the direct male desendant of Elrond's broher, who chose to be human for one. Two, elves in the Dark Times did kill each other and they found out just what that lead to. That is one reason the elves are leaving the shores of Middle Eath, they want peace, they are weary of wars. Most of the Elves who survive took arms in previous Middle Earth wars - they weary of war and want no more of it.

Dont be blaming Agent Elf. Isildur still was the one who kept the ring. And as for killing him, well, you sure Elrond could have done that anyway? Definantly sure? Maybe that slaying would have caused a war between Men and Elves?

No. What you say is not Elf like in the slightest

[ReaperFett]

How would anyone know he killed him? Say an Orc attacked. Say he fell. If the ring is so important, Im sure the sacrific would be worth it.

But I wont bother continuing to argue, as apparently I know nothing, while you are all-knowing and wise.

[Sanis Prent]

Its all well and good to have these explanations in the books, and the essential guide to middle earth and whatnot, but we're actually reviewing the film. I'd say Fett's comments have plenty of merit in that respect. Its like somebody saying that David Lynch's Dune is a masterpiece, because Frank Herbert's Dune was.

[Darth23]

The movie's been out for a week.

Most people who are going to see it and read about it have seen it already, I think.

[Darth Viscera]

Given that TTT doesn't cover everything that it did in the books, I'd say that PJ has a heck of a job to do for ROTK. Let's see:


From the parley with Saruman, to the Sammath Naur, to the coronation at Minas Anor, to the Scouring of the Shire, to some sort of potential epilogue where King Elessar dies and Arwen goes to the forest of Lorien to grieve and die...how can all this fit in a 3 hour movie?

A better question, I suppose, would be "What are they going to cut out?"

I hope they don't cut out the scouring of the shire, or anything pertaining to saruman. I want to see him feeling defeated.

[Marcus Telcontar]

The Scouring is a definate out

[ReaperFett]

Not true Darth, I havent been able to see it yet.

[Darth Viscera]

So we don't get to see Saruman die?

[Marcus Telcontar]

We do see that. How, Dont it will be done

[Darth23]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
Not true Darth, I havent been able to see it yet.

WELL WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?????!!!!!!!!

:crack

[ReaperFett]

I was waiting for my Grandad to be ina better condition. He is now, so Im going tommorow I hope.

[JonathanLB]

It is too late for me to butt in, but...

Sanis, you do not think Dune, the movie, is a masterpiece? I certainly do. It's one of the greatest sci-fi films ever made and has only somewhat recently gotten its acclaim, I think, after a lot of idiotic critics trashed it. The effects in Dune are some of the most impressive I've ever seen for a film of that time period. But it's not the effects that impress me, of course, it's the story. It's awesome.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

In ROTK does Sauruman die after the scouring of the shire? I thought he was just exiled out to wander with Grima again.

Oh! Never mind, just remembered that one of the Hobbits killed him, didn't they? One of the ones that had been imprisoned...or no? A Sacksville-Baggins? Am I right or am I left? Ugh, must buy my own copy of the books...

Anyway, I'm saddened and dismayed that the Scouring of the Shire will not be in RotK :cry

[Marcus Telcontar]

I'm not. I can leave Scourign behind without a worry.

Saruman is killed in the books by Grima Wormtongue, who is then killed by three unnamed hobbits with bows

Oh, and the movie version of Dune blows chunks

[Sanis Prent]

David Lynch's Dune is NOT very good at all. It has some good points here and there...but on the whole...its really not anything to be impressed with. The only thing I really batted an eye at was the use of internal monologues, and the H. R. Gieger designs for the Harkonnens.

I prefer the Sci-Fi version much more than the David Lynch one.

[Darth23]

Originally posted by JonathanLB
It is too late for me to butt in, but...

Sanis, you do not think Dune, the movie, is a masterpiece? I certainly do. It's one of the greatest sci-fi films ever made and has only somewhat recently gotten its acclaim, I think, after a lot of idiotic critics trashed it. The effects in Dune are some of the most impressive I've ever seen for a film of that time period. But it's not the effects that impress me, of course, it's the story. It's awesome.

:: Stabs himself repeatedly in the eyes ::

:x :x :x


I think David Lynch did a GREAT job.......


With the Elephant Man.



He totally butchered Herbert's book, though, if I had to sit through one more frickin voice-over" ( "....the worm.... the spice.... are they related...?") I think I would have exploded.

Dune is a great example of how NOT to make a movie version of a book. I always thought that it LOOKED really good, for the most part, but that was about it.

A movie would have to be at least 6 hours long in order to do the story justice. Plus most of the crap Lynch added fro the film was pretty unneccesary AND fairly dumb. Like the sonic weapon or having Kyle McLachlan play a character who starts out as 13 year old and ends up as a 16 year old at the end.

I thought the Dune mini-series on the Sci-fi channel was much more true to the book, even with the added elements (such as Queen Amidala - er Princess Irulan's Expanded role, )

[Darth Viscera]

Well, they must be doing SOME Shire scenes at the end. They've cast Alexandra Astin (Elanor Gamgee) and Sarah McLeod II (Rosie Cotton) for ROTK. Alexandra Astin would have been about 4-5 years old when they shot her, so we're talking post-departure to Valinor by a couple of years.

[ReaperFett]

Rather than a review, I'll just say what I didn't like. ANything else I probably like to some degree :)


Score - Thought it was bad in FOTR, and this is the same.

SFX - In two places. First, Gandalf falling just looked daft to me. Something about it didnt look realistic. Also, The Hobbits on Treebeard did at times look quite obvious that they werent really there.

Gandalf - His return was ruined to me by the trailer. Everyone else was careful about it, and then the trailer tells me. How dumb. Later, I thought "Maybe they had to show him, he might be in a lot". Was he heck. They could have EASILY kept that out the trailer.

Frodo plot - For this, I count anything involving Frodo/Sam/Gollum. And aside from the Sam/Gollum dialogue, I found it quite dull. Not bad, but dull. I didnt particuarly feel Elijah Wood was that great either. ALso, Faramir and Gondor was wasted. Why couldnt they expand the battle taking place? Nothing better than a bit of street fighting. And Why not actually have Faramir do more than fire one arrow? Feels a waste.

Elves - I love Elves ;)

Oh wait, silly me. I hate Elves, and little in this film endeared them to me. Hugo Weaving and Cate Blachett just gave bad performances for me. Weaving in particular was almost as bad as Jeremy Irons in Dungeons & Dragons, and appears to have picked up Roger Moore's thing of raising an eyebrow for ALL emotions. Liv Tyler is trying hard, but the character just isnt very good IMO. The Elf Leader at Helm's Deep was reasonable enough though, almost likable.

Now we get to Legolas. Well, he wasnt as bad as in FOTR. Indeed, his dialogue with Gimli was excellent. But he still had his scene-ruining abilities. I mean, sliding down stairs firing arrows, then jumping off sending the shield into an orc's throat? I really cant think of a worse scene in recent history.

Lack of combat I like - Not a film fault, as it couldn't be done. But I like the hack and slash or Aragorn and Boromir in FOTR. In TTT, there was little of this, as you cant do much in a siege. More a shame than a bad point

Lack of Boromir - Or to be precise, a hero like him. I warmed to the Boromir character, giving a bleep about what happened to him. Of the characters in TTT, I rarely felt this. Only really Gimli for his jokes.

The deaths - All the Elves died. Judging by who was in the keep, all the children and I believe all the commoners died. Of the ten or so we saw, we had our three heroes and then the King and his two close guards. Isnt that a bit convenient? Spread the death out! To me, it would be more likely the brave armoured soldiers would die over the young kids who would probably run at times. And I dont believe ALL the Elves would be wiped out. If only just kept their leader.

Overview - With FOTR, I felt that without Boromir, it was a decent film, but no more. TTT loses him, but removes the bad camera shots from FOTR, and a lovely little siege. Overall, I'd say this is as good as FOTR. Remove the Frodo parts, and it is probably better.


FINAL SCORE - 8


And as a final word. When Gandalf applied to be a Wizard, how did he send his form?

Shadowfax.

Sometimes, I crack myself up. But not this time :)

[ReaperFett]

Oh, and Marcus, one of the cut scenes was • Legolas scolding the stupidity of the Elves not to assist the race of Men with their fight against Sauron . I dont deem not wanting to fight as stupidity, I see it more what I was saying.

[Alpha]

That's a bad joke Fett...:)

[ReaperFett]

Thanks :)


As an aside btw, the deleted scenes indicate to me that Faramir wont be a problem in the extended edition :)

[Dae Jinn]

ha ha, nice Fett nice.

Just got back from the theatre (yay for my sister, who is wonderful and paid for my ticket ;)) and holy <smallfont color={hovercolor}>-Censored-</smallfont>. Loved it :D

[Marcus Telcontar]

:D

[Dae Jinn]

You can still send me money so I can see it again though Marcus ;) :lol

[Marcus Telcontar]

But... but... that will reduce the amountof money I can u to see TTT again and again!

[Dae Jinn]

:(

*sniffles*

:cry wah!!!

I'll be going again, thank god I get paid for holidays this time of year ^_^; Makes me wonder about the exchange rate though :lol

[ReaperFett]

I would go again were it not three hours and so Frodo filled at first :)

[Dae Jinn]

:lol

I think I could sit through the whole thing again...it didn't seem like three hours, but I'd like to go to an earlier show next time >_<

[ReaperFett]

I went for an 11AM showing

[Dae Jinn]

I went for the 8:30 showing, but we couldn't find the damn theatre. We got there at 8:20 ^_^; I thought we might have to wait for the 9:00 show :x

[Jedieb]

Since one of my quotes sparked a lot of this...

I don't consider myself a purist, but how I can I be wrong when I say that the differences from book to film distracted me? They either did or didn't, there's no debate there. For ME, Faromir's character was quite different from the novel. I would have liked to have seen him make his decision concerning the ring without a pep talk from Rudy. Overall, TTT was still a good movie but I think I'll enjoy it more on DVD. Especially if I get the same extended edition that I did with FOTR.

[ReaperFett]

I'll go find you the cut scenes :)

[ReaperFett]

Arwen running up to Elrond's veranda in Rivendell in fear, saying 'You have the gift of foresight...'
• Gandalf the White telling Aragorn at night before Helm's Deep that Sauron 'fears what you may become'
• Faramir discovering Boromir's horn cloven in two as it washes ashore
• Arwen walking up towards the shards of Narsil while wearing a cloak similar to the one which she wears while leaving Rivendell
• Further shots of Merry and Pippin being guarded by the Uruk-hai at night
• Further shots of Eowyn standing outside the Golden Hall of Edoras
• Elrond stating the alliance of Elves and Men 'is over'
• Sam making greater use of the Elven rope given to him by Galadriel while travelling to Mordor with Frodo
• Further shots of Arwen and Aragorn together in the past
• The storyline of Arwen taking part in Helm's Deep, including shots of the Rivendell Elves arriving at Lothlorien and Arwen sleeping under falling leaves, was completely scrapped
• Further shots of Eomer's travels in the hunt of orcs or after being banished from Rohan
• Bilbo discussing the departure of Rivendell with Elrond and Arwen
• Saruman claiming he will soon become 'more powerful than the Lord of the Rings himself'
• Several scenes involving the two hobbits and Treebeard, including Merry and Pippin drinking the Ent Draught
• A beautiful soliloquy from Faramir post-battle with the Haradrim, where he asks rethorically 'I wonder what his name was, where his home is, his family. Was he really evil at heart, or did the Dark Lord deceive him, as he has deceived so many others? What lies or threats led him on the long march from his home?'

• More scuffling amongst the Uruk-hai and Orcs whilst in possession of the Hobbits
• Faramir showing Frodo and Sam a way out of Osgiliath through the sewers
• Saruman's speech that begins 'So Gandalf Greyhame thinks...'
• Ents participating in the battle of Helm's Deep
• Flashbacks to Boromir, Faramir and Denethor together
• Further footage of Frodo's scuffle with Sam
• The Uruk-hai invasion of the caves in Helm's Deep
• Eomer pulling Theodred out of some mud post-battle
• Aragorn releasing Theodred's horse Brego, the horse that would save him later, from it's stable
• A flashback to Boromir's death in FotR
• A council of Elves debating whether or not an alliance with Men is feasible
• Legolas scolding the stupidity of the Elves not to assist the race of Men with their fight against Sauron
• Eowyn about to slay an Orc in the caves - may appear in RotK
• Gimli smoking a pipe while resting on a dead orc - may appear in RotK
• Further shots of Gollum travelling to Mordor with the hobbits, including him ordering not to stop on a certain road and extensions to the cooked rabbit scene
• Flashback to Smeagol killing Deagol over the One Ring while fishing on the River Anduin - will appear in RotK
• Merry and Pippin discussing what will happen to them when the Uruk-hai find out they don't bear the One Ring
• Sam discussing the changes occuring to Frodo with Gollum while the Ringbearer is asleep
• Gimli exploring the beautiful caves under Helm's Deep with Legolas
• The Orcs of Mordor joining the band of Uruk-hai
• Aragorn conversing with someone at night while lying down in a Rohan camp

[ReaperFett]

The ones I wish had been left in:

SPOILERS











• Faramir discovering Boromir's horn cloven in two as it washes ashore

• A beautiful soliloquy from Faramir post-battle with the Haradrim, where he asks rethorically 'I wonder what his name was, where his home is, his family. Was he really evil at heart, or did the Dark Lord deceive him, as he has deceived so many others? What lies or threats led him on the long march from his home?'

• Faramir showing Frodo and Sam a way out of Osgiliath through the sewers


• Flashbacks to Boromir, Faramir and Denethor together

• A flashback to Boromir's death in FotR

These all make both Faramir and Boromir to be more important in the series, IMO


• Further shots of Eomer's travels in the hunt of orcs or after being banished from Rohan
Sounds good


Eowyn about to slay an Orc in the caves - may appear in RotK
It better! She was quite undeveloped for me


Gimli exploring the beautiful caves under Helm's Deep with Legolas
I want more Gimli scenes :)
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[Marcus Telcontar]

SPOILERS FETT! COVER SPOILERS!

[ReaperFett]

Im spacing them, as it takes an age to spoiler tag quotes. I vill get back to it.



Good you said though, I didnt know VBulletin removes spaces at the end.

[Figrin D'an]

The "soliloquy" of Faramir originally belonged to Sam in the book... I was looking for that when I saw the film and was disappointed that it wasn't there... that could have been a great scene. :(

[CMJ]

I finally saw it today. I was kinda critical of FOTR if you remember(even though I did enjoy it), but I was really impressed with TTT. The film has been discussed to death(reading this whole thread just took me at least 25 minutes), so I don't really have anything to add to the conversation.

A huge improvement over FOTR IMHO. I did have several quibbles with the film, but when it was good...it was gold, pure gold.

[Ishiva Ruell]

Originally posted by CMJ
I finally saw it today. I was kinda critical of FOTR if you remember(even though I did enjoy it), but I was really impressed with TTT. The film has been discussed to death(reading this whole thread just took me at leat 25 minutes), so I don't really have anything to add to the conversation.

A huge improvement over FOTR IMHO. I did have several quibbles with the film, but when it was good...it was gold, pure gold.

I agree, when PJ decided to produce movies of the LOTR trilogy he definitely had a great vision and TTT is yet another testimony to this truth. I love it! Though, as I have said in another thread this movie is not as faithful to the book as was FOTR. Most namely replacing the thirty rangers present amongst whom was Elrond's two sons, being rangers themselves.

PJ, instead went with the lothlorian elves, led by Haldir, sent from a very concerned Galadriel. How does the book state it, one of these rangers are worth a hundred or a thousand men? Haldir, BTW, is a character added to the movies that was not in books at all.

Another change was the "death" Aragorn which I assume PJ added for dramatic effect for one of the leading characters. The true character who is supposed to suffer a "Death" is Gimli. In Helm's Deep no less, where it is presumed the missing Gimli died during the destruction of the walls which allowed the armies of Saruman to flood in. Later it is discovered he had retreated and was protecting the women and children in the caverns of beyond the walled keep. There are other changes as well but none of them remove the fact that this is the best movie of the year. Only the most committed Tolkien-scholars may find fault or controversy. I am much more forgivin than that. Great, great movie!

[Marcus Telcontar]

The fact to me is, if you remove the source material and dont compare, you realyl do have an incredible movie. If you compare to source... well... you could argue a few ways. I personally look at the source and I see it absolutly everywhere in just about every scene. Me, I realise you could not possibly put book word ofr word to screen, so if the changes lea to a better movie... so be it. I sure as hell am not arguing and it annoys me no end so called purists cant get over changes. Enough! Accept it and just look at what a work of art TTT is!

I do have one bug, but its a continuatity bug. How does Arago possibly have both his sword an his dagger after he falls from the cliff? Where were they resheathed? It's really annoying me that soemthign this glaring was left unattended. Absolutly, no way could he possibly have sword and dagger! Apart from that.... heh, no complaints

[Ishiva Ruell]

Just read the whole thread and have a few comments.... the gollum cgi makes all other cgi characters blow pretty hard. Yet the wargs and Ents could have possibly been more refined, maybe?

Responding to an earlier post, the orcs in the tight phalanx-like battle array that they were in would not have provided enough ample space nor the siege ladders and other falling debri ample time to dodge. Also, anyone going to see the movie, watch carefully when the orcs are rushing the battering ram up the bridge leading to the gates of Helm's Deep, they are literally pushing their own troops off to reach the great doors. Sacrifice is a given when achieving greater purposes. But truly it gives some insight on Urak-hai mental state of being.



I really dig the deleted scenes listed by ReaperFett. Greatly anticipating the acquisition of the DVD Collector's Edition of the TTT when it becomes available.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Just read the whole thread and have a few comments.... the gollum cgi makes all other cgi characters blow pretty hard. Yet the wargs and Ents could have possibly been more refined, maybe?



Ents were fine by me. Wargs.... CG was blatant at times. I guess they are very hard to render. Look for an improvement by the time the DVD arrives - FOTR quite obviously is rendered much better for the DVD and better again in the EE. Looks like WETA ran out of time for TTT and had to deliver as is. Gollum and Helm's Deep however..... only once could I spot CG at Helm's Deep, and Gollum is just flat out the best damn thing ever produced by computer, full stop. It's goignt o be a crime if TTT doesnt win at least one or two technicals this year.

[Ishiva Ruell]

Originally posted by Marcus Elessar
The fact to me is, if you remove the source material and dont compare, you realyl do have an incredible movie. If you compare to source... well... you could argue a few ways. I personally look at the source and I see it absolutly everywhere in just about every scene. Me, I realise you could not possibly put book word ofr word to screen, so if the changes lea to a better movie... so be it. I sure as hell am not arguing and it annoys me no end so called purists cant get over changes. Enough! Accept it and just look at what a work of art TTT is!


That's absolutely true but I understand the purist's opinion. Because they feel Tolkien's classic work has been adulterated. But these LOTR movies are simply cinematic wonders. Personally, I don't care enough about the changes.

[ReaperFett]

The entire Warg scene had moments of bad CGI. The part when Legolas first attacks, something looks wrong about his colour, IMO. You always get SOME bad CGI in a movie, and that was TTT's


And IMO, Gollum is hard to compare. Watto and Yoda were just as good, but were a different style. Rather than trying to be near-human, these were just flat-out alien.


I sure as hell am not arguing and it annoys me no end so called purists cant get over changes. Enough! Accept it and just look at what a work of art TTT is!
I actually find more of these people use the fact it's an adaptation as an excuse. I was talking about how I feel the Elvish Rope should be explained, and their all harping on about how Jackson had such a hard task, and couldnt explain anything. Im sorry, but how is that an excuse? If you dont have the time, remove all trace.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Actually, the rope is explained in TTT - listen closely.

Gollum says it's Elven. It's not easy to make out, but he does

No, Gollum and Yoda can be compared. For one, the textures and lighting of Gollum are better done. Second, Gollum interacts with the enviroment. Yoda and Watto do not. Third, Gollum is an extraordinary creation, for it's difficult to believe Gollum is anythign other than real at times. Certainly when Gollum is arguning with Smeagol, that is flat out the most astonishing computer effect ever seen. Bar none.

[JMK]

Gollum was based on Andy Serkis' acting, Yoda was entirely cg, which is a huge difference. Usually when Yoda was onscreen, he was interacting with other pixels, I can't say for certain with Gollum, but it looked like he was really skidding through the sand and rocks and the branches etc...

The 2 will be compared based on the fact that their final representation is done by cg. But the work that went into getting both of those characters there is totally different.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
The entire Warg scene had moments of bad CGI. The part when Legolas first attacks, something looks wrong about his colour, IMO. You always get SOME bad CGI in a movie, and that was TTT's


I definately agree... Legolas attacking on the run, killing the "scout" looked really bad, IMO. The lighting on him didn't match the surrounding environment... I really hope that gets cleaned up for the DVD. For the most part, the Wargs looked okay, but yeah, the "worst" CG sequences were during that span of scenes. The rest of the major CG... Gollum, the Ents, Helm's Deep, the "Nazgul on Wings," the Black Gates... it all looked really good.

Comparing Gollum to Yoda... Gollum's skin textures looked more realistic. That's really what seperates them in my mind. The interactivity with the environment was very impressive as well.

[JMK]

I really didn't dig Gollum's lips on the real close up shots.

[ReaperFett]

Actually, the rope is explained in TTT - listen closely.

Yeah, something so few seem to have heard. And it doesnt EXPLAIN :)


Second, Gollum interacts with the enviroment. Yoda and Watto do not.
They didnt have to. They interacting with what was important.

[JMK]

You don't think interacting with the environment is important?
I think it gives any character a physical, real-world basing if the things around them are affected by their presence, not just the people they're talking to.

[ReaperFett]

JMK, if CGI Yoda is getting off a CGI Gunship while talking to CGI Clionetrooper ina CGI command post, how can you compare it to Gollum? He interacting by talking and fighting, and this was all great, except possibly a tad over the top in the fight. But interact he did.

[JMK]

Granted, but I think that Gollum's interacting with the surroundings was a little more intricate and detailed, therefore a little more believable real life.

[ReaperFett]

But my point is that Gollums character was interactive, Yoda wasnt.

Treebeard was good CGI, but interacted little.

[Diego Van Derveld]

Are you kidding? The Nazgul looked horrid this go around! The flying scene looked like something out of an ed wood movie.

I disagree about Gollum being that innovative. I've seen the same technology used in other movies to the same effect. TPM, Signs, etc. Looked sharp, but didn't really seem revolutionary in the sense that you had a guy act in place and CG over it. Also, not really sure what the fuss is over the Gollum/Smeagol argument. Its hammed up at worst. expressive at best. But nothing really stood out there.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Diego Van Derveld
Are you kidding? The Nazgul looked horrid this go around! The flying scene looked like something out of an ed wood movie.


In what way? Those sequences looked fine to me.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Then if Yoda didnt interact with the enviroment, as a character it fails. It's just becomes not much more than a cartoon. And MOst of Treebeard is animatronic.

[ReaperFett]

If there is no need to interact, then it hasnt failed.

[Marcus Telcontar]

:rolleyes

Then what was the bloody point of Yod then????? Pretty scenery????

[Marcus Telcontar]

TORN have some interesting pics up at the moment. To quote...

"Seems some strange things are going bump in the night. Folks from The Council of Elrond Message Board have an interesting theory into the possibility that Liv Tyler (Arwen) was indeed at Helms Deep, and later digitally removed - and even transformed into Legolas! However...some compelling (albeit fuzzy) pictures show that they may not have been able to remove her entirely...."

[Figrin D'an]

Yeah, I saw those pics earlier today... pretty compelling evidence that the Helm's Deep sequences went through at least one major rewrite. The number of white horses is interesting, and given that there were some promo pics floating around the net about 8 months ago showing Arwen somewhat battle-scared, I won't be surprised at all if indeed this theory has a lot of truth to it.

[ReaperFett]

Then what was the bloody point of Yod then????? Pretty scenery????
Try reading my earlier comment about CGI Yoda walking down the CGI...

It HAS no scenery to interact with, aside from talking and the fight. Gollum had to interact with the ground and so forth for the entire film.

And Marcus, the Arwen thing was in the deleted scene list I showed in this thread ;)

[Marcus Telcontar]

My point remains uncontened then, because not everything Yoda was next to or was supposed to interact with was CG.

[ReaperFett]

Well, you said he didnt originally :)

[Diego Van Derveld]

Fig...I mean the heads-up shots as the Nazgul is flying over whatever the city's name is. It looks mind-blowingly fake...like the old days when car chases had a screen of things going by in the rear view.