Star Trek: Nemesis (some masked spoilers)

[Figrin D'an]

Pretty good movie overall. I'll take some time before fully judge it, but it's one of the better Trek films. Not as good as First Contact, but much better than Generations or Insurrection among the "Next Generation" films.

On a side note... you might be surprised to know there are a couple of scenes in this latest Trek film that give props to, of all things... Star Wars. You'll see exactly what I'm talking about if you see it.

Some other things are borrowed from the second Star Trek film, The Wrath of Kahn. But, it works, IMO. An effective, yet complex villian keeps things moving. The film is very much centered around Picard and Data, which is to be expected. Riker has a few good scenes. Troi plays a small, but important roll. Crusher, LaForge and Worf are essentially window dressing.

Some die-hard Trekkies will probably whine and complain about Data's death. But, in my opinion, it works if you think about his character, and the character had little room to grow anymore. It was time to shake things up and remove that sense of the good guys always surviving all but unscathed.

Anyway... if you enjoy Star Trek, you'll probably like the film. If you don't, you probably won't. There's a few pacing issues at times, but it isn't really a huge problem. Also, the CG effects surprised me. They were very well done, easily the best of any Trek film to date. This really shows when the Enterprise rams Shinzons massive ship, the Scimitar, and both become severely damaged.

So, it gets a solid rating from me. :)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Ooooh. I get to see it Sunday. :crack

[Shawn]

I just got back from seeing it. It was excellent! There was a good amount of humor, especially towards the beginning. The costume and general visual design was superb. When Picard rammed the Scimitar, everyone in the theater was practically cheering.

I've never been a huge Star Trek fan, although I've admittedly seen a good portion of it all. Still, I enjoyed Nemesis quite a lot. The only other Trek movie I thought was really good was FC, and this is definitely a close-call as to which is better.

[Figrin D'an]

I also have to admit, I was very skeptical when I first read about the character of B-4. It sounded kind of cheesy, especially after all of the stuff in the TV series about Lore. But, it was pulled off very well. The scene in which Data tells B-4 that he must be deactivated was actually moving in a sad way.

[JonathanLB]

It was good -- 3 stars, B.

Better than Insurrection BY FAR, and worse than First Contact, but not like by a long shot. I mean, I thought First Contact was noticeably better, but not "way better."

I don't know what you mean... Star Wars reference? Can you mask spoilers and mention it? I don't remember that. Perhaps I saw it and just forgot what it was.

My friend Ben thought Nemesis was one of the best movies ever, LOL, whatever... my god. I don't know what he was smoking -- oh wait, YES I DO! Weed.

There wasn't a lot there, IMO, I mean it had a few deeper themes that I enjoyed but it wasn't great or anything. I like the nature vs. nurture theme, but that isn't new.

Ben noticed an interesting connection, though, that probably most other people won't know.

I'm not going to spoil anything by pointing it out specifically -- if you've seen it, I'm going to let you think about it.

The villain is like Osama Bin Laden, basically, and not in a "kill everyone way," I'm talking about the way the U.S. built Osama up against the Soviet Union and then turned on him after we didn't care about communism anymore. The theme is pretty obvious if you think about it, I mean, it's definitely there. It doesn't make it a great film just for that reason, but it is interesting!

[Darth Viscera]

As good as First Contact? You people MUST be out of your gord. This was easily the best TNG movie to date. I daresay it's as good, or better, than Star Trek VI, the previous champion of trek films.

The audio and visual effects are utterly captivating. I loved the ship's intercom audio effect. The Romulan Senate scene reminds me of a powerful Roman Senate, and the film reflects that. Anyone catch the statues outside the senate? (another bit of info-the last Roman Emperor was Emperor Romulus) This was truly the kind of Romulan>Roman connection that Gene was trying to create, IMO.

With the resurrected Star Trek theme from the TOS movies, you'll cream yourself.

This was a powerful, enthralling film. Its style reminded me a lot of Gladiator. This was no cheesy B&B film like what has previously been vomited up (Generations, First Contact, Insurrection), this was genuinely a quality Trek movie. B&B must be looking for a rope to hang themselves with now that they've seen that without them, a good trek picture can be made in the regrettable absence of Gene. Heck, I'll FedEx them the rope and the sour apple tree.

If you're a Trek fan, this movie was simply astounding. Star Trek at its best!

[JonathanLB]

Ben is a huge Trek fan and he loved it.

I asked for the first 5 seasons of TNG on DVD this x-mas, I mean, I'm enough of a fan to want them let's put it that way. But I'm not a real fan, I just think TNG was a great show with amazing philosophical/political issues raised. It is so good it warrants my attention as a FILM critic to see the shows because I want to be a filmmaker and the issues raised are important to me and what I want to do.

As for Nemesis, it was good, it wasn't anything special, sorry. First Contact was just a well crafted film in general. Perhaps if you're a die hard fan, then Nemesis is better, but as a *movie* and a standalone entity, First Contact is hard to top.

[Princess Sunflower]

Ok...you guys got me jumping out of my seat. :crack

If I don't see it THIS weekend my husband will not be able to live with me. :grumble Looks like the weather will just be rain instead of snow so we can go thank goodness!

I am a HUGE Star Trek fan and have been waiting all year for this!
All the trailers really make it look like this is a real kick@ss movie. Everytime I see the trailers I get goosebumps especially the scene where the Enterprise is crashing.

Ohh....Jonathan...I am sooo jealous. I wish Santa Claus had those deep pockets in my house for all those DVD's. The only way I'm getting the shows is by doing it the old fashion way of taping it on VHS. I do have just about every episode from every series tho.

Speaking of the Star Wars connection...it's mentioned in the TV trailer by a movie critic (I think Gene Shalit) that it's as good as SW...that's a real rave because I've never heard ST movies being compared to SW in a positive way.

[ReaperFett]

Im not intrested enough to see it. The last one sent me to sleep on the plane I was on :)

I found 2 and 4 good, the original TV series fun in a campy way, TNG reasonably good, and the rest poor :)

[Darth Viscera]

And just FYI, when Riker first met Data, the android was lying back against a tree and trying to whistle "Pop goes the weasle". They got it half right :)

[Figrin D'an]

The Undiscovered Country was good, one of the better ones, but I wouldn't call it the champion of Trek films. Personally, I put First Contact and The Wrath of Kahn on the same level at the top, with Kahn being slightly better perhaps. Nemesis is probably just below those two, along with Undiscovered Country.

I think First Contact is a bit better because of pacing. Nemesis did drag in a few spots, and I felt that the director used slow motion too much. To me, if slo-mo becomes noticable over the action of the scene, it's not effective and detracts from it.

The other reason is simply because, in First Contact, we saw a side of Picard that had never been shown before. He was vengeful in FC. He want to hurt the Borg. He wanted blood, and he was ready to kill himself and his crew to reach that end. The Moby<smallfont color={hovercolor}>-Censored-</smallfont> reference was such a great tie-in. The scene with Picard and Lily in the captian's ready room is one of the best in Trek lore.

Shinzon was a very well constructed villian, with a reasonable amount of depth and complexity... but it's hard to match the presence of an enemy like the Borg that has been built up through the TV series.

Jon, there were two major 'nods' to Star Wars that I saw...

- The initial escape of Data and Picard from Shinzon's ship. When Data was attempting to open the cargo bay door, and Picard was holding off the Reman troops, it very much reminded me of the the scene from ESB when R2 is opening the landing pad door at Cloud City. The banter between Picard and Data was analagous to that of Threepio and R2 (Data/R2 rambling on, Picard/Threepio saying "Just open the damn door.")

- The firefight aboard the Enterprise between the Remans and the Starfleet security team led by Riker and Worf developed a bit like the firefight in the detention area from ANH. It even culminated with two people (the Reman Viceroy and Riker) diving into a chute similar to the garbage chute in ANH.

[JonathanLB]

Well, now that you mention it, I can see that. I'm not sure it was totally intentional, but perhaps. It's definitely there.

As good as Star Wars? ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!! Now that is funny.

My god, what is wrong with people. You know you're smoking too much crack when you can't tell Star Wars from Star Trek, jesus. I enjoy Trek, but get real. It's all about quantity, not about quality. For SW, there is no quantity, just 5 movies, and it's all about the quality of each one.

Yes, I do look forward to getting these TNG seasons on DVD, though, I've not seen most episodes, to be honest just maybe like 10 total and I loved them all. Each one raised some sort of philosophical question or political one that I found interesting. TNG is one of the best shows ever made, I think. It's incredible. There are plenty of shows that are equally well crafted and just as well acted, but they're not even CLOSE to as thought-provoking. So I guess it depends on what you want out of television, but I enjoy thinking personally.

I'll need to complete my collection with the final few seasons of TNG, but for now this will do.

[Darth Viscera]

If that's your favorite part of TNG, then don't waste $700 on the upcoming DS9 sets-it all went downhill when Gene died in '91 (DS9 started in '92), and the philo'/poli' plots are all but gone :(

same with Voyager and Enterprise, I'm afraid. Sure, B&B try to emulate Gene at times, but it doesn't cut the muster.

Most people disagree with me on this, but IMO STFC went downhill a little while past the scene where the Sphere was destroyed. After that, it was like watching a 90 minute long monologue. Blah. With ST VI and the beginning of ST VII you have a delightful mix of Aaron Allston-esque dialogue which won't put you to sleep, and a balance between the scenes. I would hate it if the next Trek movie was Star Trek XI: Borg Hostage Crisis Part 2 (Now with less Cube!). Gaagh.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Originally posted by JonathanLB
It's all about quantity, not about quality. For SW, there is no quality, just 5 movies.

^
:lol:lol:lol I can't believe you typed that!!!


*runs off to see Nemesis, giggling all the way*

[imported_Eve]

It was gooooood... no great. I think better than FC. FC was awesome, but they had the Hue ("I, Borg" I think) episode, then the episode where the Borg were changed or more individualized) and under Lore. Then in FC, they were all collective-like again. I, we, I we...

Nonethless they're all superb. But then again, as you know, I'm more partial to ST than SW.


(And I just want to say... Tom Hardy is hhhhot.)

[Commander Zemil Vymes]

Wonderful, excellent movie. Not sure if I'm ready to put it among the lofty First Contact or Wrath of Khan, but its easily the 3rd best Trek film.

[JonathanLB]

I didn't type that! Look again you liar! :) Jesus, some people...

:lol

DS9 wasn't my thing. I gave it 10 episodes or so, that's all I watched, and 2 were actually really good, the other 8 were unbearably awful in a few cases, boring in the other cases.

Voyager, watched maybe 10 of those I suppose too and I wasn't that impressed except with how hot Jeri Ryan is -- heck yeah.

How anyone could like Star Trek more than Star Wars boggles the mind, unless it is a numbers game, like: "Well I like it better because there is more to watch," but nobody who knows anything about filmmaking would compare any Star Trek episode or any Star Trek movie to the Star Wars films. Ok, AT LEAST the original trilogy, if you hate the prequels, then at least the first 3 SW films all made the top 400 greatest movies of all time list from the AFI (ANH at #15). Needless to say, Star Trek isn't exactly a critical favorite. Granted TNG is really a great show, but is any one episode or two episodes combined as good as any SW film? No.

I'm not about the quantity of a show or how many of them they make. I may think that overall TNG has more great hours of, umm, "film," than Star Wars but I'm talking about a per-hour basis. Nothing beats Star Wars when compared like that, but sure, I gave more stars to all of the Bond films combined than all of the SW films combined because it's 20 vs. 5. (Some people might say there are 21 Bond movies; they would be wrong, though, as the studio and everyone else marketed this as the 20th and whatever film was the extra 1 isn't considered a true Bond film, so screw that).

[Sanis Prent]

Granted TNG is really a great show, but is any one episode or two episodes combined as good as any SW film?

Best of Both Worlds part 1 & 2, vs The Phantom Menace. I think I'll take TNG in that matchup.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I would agree with Sanis.

And you DID TOO type that!! :lol

[JonathanLB]

You would put two Star Trek episodes above a masterpiece like The Phantom Menace?! GOOD LORD, what is this world coming to?!?!

That is just... sad. I hope you don't seriously call yourselves die-hard Star Wars fans, otherwise our fan base is hurting worse than I thought.

*sigh* there can only be a few truly loyal fans, I guess. Well whatever. Your loss.

[Eluna Thals]

Oh get over yourself, really. There are at least a dozen movies on my A list ahead of the best Star Wars, much less the worst of the bunch. Doesn't make me any less of a fan.

[Sanis Prent]

What? You mean Pope Jon excommunicated me? I have to turn in my shiny "Star Wars Fan" badge? So tragic...

Spare me, and listen to yourself for a change. Don't worry about ever getting trapped in a giant pumpkin, because you're out of your ever-loving gourd to begin with. When Lucasfilm makes you Viceroy of Fandom, let me know. Until then, here's a tissue...on me.

[Gitane Blesse]

--Ignores the rest of the thread, because she's tired--

I was dragged out to see Nemesis yesterday.. And I have to admit that I really liked it. I usually *hate* Star Trek.. x.x

[Live Wire]

Originally posted by Sanis Prent
Best of Both Worlds part 1 & 2, vs The Phantom Menace. I think I'll take TNG in that matchup.


I have to second that! Best of both worlds was surpreme writing and should go down in history as being one of the best cliffhangers ever. I would take the writing and acting in that over TPM. And Im a die hard SW fan. Im also a die hard trek fan!


I have to admit it I cried my eyes on when they killed data. Why couldn't they have killed worf. He could have went out in a blaze of glory but to kill data was cheap grandstanding. I remember where I was when I saw the first episode of TNG and I grew up as Data grew up. Hes the one character that has beloved standing.

other then that the writing was good. The acting was great. The special effects were kick <smallfont color={hovercolor}>-Censored-</smallfont>. It was as good as First contact but it had none of the feel good ending. I've talked to other trek fans and turnout is low at theatres. No one is applauding at the end of the movie. People just sit in stunned silence get up and walk out quietly. I think its proof that as a whole the trek francise is unfortunately dying. Enterprise sucks for many many reasons. Voyager was a sad sad thing. I hate to say it cause I grew up on trek but either fix the problems or dont make anymore cause Id rather see trek go out in a blaze of glory then suffer a slow agonizing pitiful death and that is where its heading. Gene would turn over in his grave......*sighs*

[Diego Van Derveld]

I too thought that Worf should have bit it rather than Data, but I disagree about Enterprise. I enjoy that show alot :)

[Live Wire]

Enterprise is just cheep sci fi entertainment. Its as if the writers have never watched star trek at all! THe whole idea of doing a prequel series was a bandwagon jump to the success of the sw prequels. I knew there was no way they could stay within the preestablished timeline. The writers were kidding themselves to think they could do it right.

Thats the thing with star trek its been around so long that the timeline is already there. They're not creating a new universe they're working within a preexisting one. Where did all these new alien species go in previous years?! The klingons don't exist as far as they know at that time. Klingons didn't look like the TNG klingons back then. There are too many problems timeline wise, character wise, and story wise.

[Diego Van Derveld]

Well...they at least poke fun at themselves. Remember that DS9 episode, when Worf says "We don't like to talk about it." :lol

[Live Wire]

lmao!!!! Yeah I loved that line! Cause its like the one thing that everyone wants to know about!! *hee hee*

[Figrin D'an]

"The Best of Both Worlds" was a great TNG episode (I'm counting both parts as one), one of the best to be sure. The best single episode though, IMO, was "The Inner Light." It had some of the best writing, acting and character development that I have ever witness on a TV show. That episode, along with DS9's "In the Pale Moonlight", are two of the finest moments not only in Star Trek history, but in TV history.


As for Data's death... yes, he was the most beloved character of the TNG cast, and he was the second most developed, next to Picard, but that development had reached an end. There really was no new direction to take the Data character. Once the emotion chip was brought into play, that essentially brought him as close to humanity as he could possibly be. A great character, and one my personal favorites among all TV characters, but I'd rather have Data meet his demise than for him to become monotonous and rehashed.


Enterprise is pretty good. It's been a little dull lately, but I'm giving it time to pick up steam. As for the "new" alien races thing... in the time of TNG, there are something like 120 member worlds in the Federation, and now many of those races do we actually see? Maybe 20-25, through out the course of all the films and TV shows. It's not a big deal, IMO. The Kingon thing is funny, IMO, and I'm glad their ignoring it in Enterprise, because it makes it even more hilarious when watching reruns of the original series.

[Jedieb]

I don't know if I'll be seeing Nemesis in theaters. There's no way I'd get the wife to go. I don't think I'll take the kids, they'd be bored to tears. I'm certainly not going solo. I have to agree with some of you on "Best of Both Worlds" V. TPM, to an extent. I'd say the overall quality of the two episodes (acting & writing) are better than TPM, but TPM reaches highs that BOBW never takes me to.

Does that mean I have to turn my secret fan badge to the master?:lol

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Seriously...you don't have time to be bored in Nemesis. That's an action rollercoaster.

[Jedieb]

Seriously...you don't have time to be bored in Nemesis. That's an action rollercoaster.
They're 4 years old and 20 months old. Trust me, they'd get BORED.I'm sure I'd like it, but I can't think of a single Trek movie that kids that young could get into. On a positive note, I don't either of them would realize how bad ST:V is. ;)

[Sanis Prent]

I was watching Wrath of Khan at 4 years of age. If I can do that, they can watch Nemesis. They're rather similar in scope :D

[Lilaena De'Ville]

My twins (niece and nephew) watched FotR (at home) and were enthralled.

I would highly reccomend NOT TAKING ANY CHILD BELOW the age of 5 to a movie theatre unless its G or PG. They're just annoying to you and everyone else around you. :)

[Jedieb]

Believe me Sanis, you don't know my boy. I love Khan, but it bores him to tears right now. There's nothing in it for him. He'd never make it through Nemesis. He did great with AOTC and he loves going to see animated movies. But he's not going to get anything out of a ST movie for the next few years. Lilaena De'Ville has a point. Taking him to see Ice Age was great because the theater was full of kids. The occasional noises were everywhere. But a showing of ST is going to have an older crowd and it's just not going to be as kid friendly.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Sanis Prent
Pope Jon

:lol

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by JonathanLB
Star Trek isn't exactly a critical favorite.

Since when do you value a critic's opinion?

[JonathanLB]

You know me, Dutchy, I only value opinions I agree with ;)

haha, j/k.

I don't generally take much stock in what other critics say. I'm a critic now, too, I may not be on the same level as them (I am definitely not), but I have the right to my opinions and I think critically about every film I see. I see movies in much different ways than at least most moviegoers if not just because I see enough movies to make connections between what I see. I appreciate reading what other critics have to say about a movie, but if I disagree with them then I just move on and ignore them. That's that. I mean, they have the right to feel how they do and express their opinions, but likewise I have a right to think they didn't understand the point of said film and thus ignore their review. I respect their opinions and their right to express them, but I don't agree with them often times.

This year might actually be more ordinary because unlike last year, I think I am going to end up being in the majority on most of the major films. Spirited Away as best animated film, I agree, Bowling for Columbine as best documentary, absolutely, Gangs of New York a best picture nominee, eh, ok I really enjoyed it, The Two Towers, heck yeah, and I imagine I will enjoy Chicago, Catch Me If You Can (I can't wait), About Schmidt, Adaptation (looks odd, but good), and The Quiet American IF THEY EVER OPEN HERE! Grrr. I have checked and my theaters are not playing these movies when they are supposed to do so. It's frustrating. I guess you have to live in L.A. to get everything on time. Or New York.

My only major disagreement with critics this year is Y Tu Mama Tambien. It sucks. Nonetheless, it won't be winning any awards. I'd say odds of that film winning anything but a Razzie are about 10 to 1. Talk to Her is a favorite for Best Foreign Film, although it looks terrible too, my god it looks bad.

The year's best foreign film is clearly Hero, though. I cannot wait to see that, it is supposed to be a masterpiece, got a Golden Globe nomination for Best Foreign Film and Time's review is GLOWING. I understand many people feel it is better than Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Needless to say, I cannot wait. I think all of the best foreign films come from Hong Kong and Japan pretty much. I have little use for European film. I think the European film industry is lackluster and often pathetic, while Asian film is often wonderful and high quality. There are great movies from Europe, no question about that, especially the U.K., but wow, some of those countries have a lot of work to do before they are able to turn out good movies consistently. Ah well.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think I will never see it, because I am not Star Trek fan the last Star Trek movie was horrible and really Paramount needs to bury the series, its over, this one isn't even going to do 100 million WW, it shows that there is very few people interested in except the die hards which is a lot smaller number than Star Wars, LOTR or Harry Potter at the moment. Star Trek had a good run now its time for Paramount to go on to something else.

[Jedieb]

Harsh words from JMC, but I have to agree with him. As successful as ST has been, the movies have never been monsters at the B.O. You can bank on them for between $75M-$100, but not much more. They've made money because the budgets have been pretty low. But they've never brought in the kind of money that Potter, FOTR, or SW have. I think their day at the B.O. is done.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Its also bad that the even movies have done better than the odd numered films well this one (an even number) will do worse than the last one (an odd number). Also I think some of the originals adjusted for inflation would probably be over 100 especially 4 which was very popular maybe because it poked fun at so many things.

[Jinn Fizz]

I finally saw Nemesis last night, and I enjoyed it very much :). It was good Trek, something I've been missing ever since Voyager went bad about the fifth season or so. And I don't watch Enterprise, since I found the pilot episode to be very uninteresting.

But Nemesis reminded me why I've always been, and always will be, a Trek fan in general. Great story, terrific acting (Tom Hardy is a delicious find!), nifty special effects, just a really good time overall.

I'd heard rumors about Data's death for months, and although Data has always been my favorite TNG character, I had no qualms about the idea of his dying as long as it was a dignified and noble death. Like with Spock in TWOK, y'know? And that's exactly what we got...dignity and nobility. And I have to disagree somewhat with the comments about how it would have been more appropriate for Worf to be the one going out in a blaze of glory. Think about how Data's entire existence has been a quest of becoming more human...what he does at the end of Nemesis is the ultimate human gesture, self-sacrifice to save not only the crew of the Enterprise, but all of Earth as well. A very fine resolution for this character, I think.

And I would also be able to mention quite a few episodes of Trek that are better than TPM...sorry, but I don't believe that TPM is a "masterpiece." It's fun, it's entertaining, and it thoroughly accomplishes what it sets out to do, which is to get all the players in place for the rest of the prequel saga. But a masterpiece, it isn't. Trek put out some great stuff, like the aforementioned "Best of Both Worlds," "The Inner Light," and "In the Pale Moonlight." I also thought the entire final story arc of DS9 was terrific, with so many interwoven conflicts and story threads. It was very impressive stuff.

I proudly call myself a Trekkie as well as a big fan of the SW saga. :)

Now, back to Nemesis...I was left with only one nagging question: Now that Data is gone, who will take care of Spot?:lol :cry :lol

[Diego Van Derveld]

Alf :)

[Figrin D'an]

LOL... Alf...

:lol

[JonathanLB]

I agree with you on Nemesis, it is a good Trek movie, but TPM, it isn't.

All of the Star Wars films are absolute masterpieces and if a person claims to be a fan and does not think they are, then they aren't a fan, or not a very good one, at least. I don't go calling myself a Trek fan, yet I just got 5 seasons of TNG on DVD when I could have asked for hundreds of dollars in other DVDs. Instead, I really wanted TNG because I think it's a great show, but I'm not a Trek fan because, fact is, I don't think it is great. I think it has one great show, one really corny old one, and two mediocre ones (DS9 and Voyager) that occassionally had good episodes and sometimes had truly terrible ones. I make no judgment on Enterprise as I have not seen it, so it would be unfair. I watched one episode, which is not a fair judgment of any show. The episode I saw was, eh, mediocre. But I understand the show is good, from what Ben says. Then again, Ben loves everything Trek, I swear.

The fact is, there are only a small handful of films that have stories as strong as the Star Wars Saga, which is the greatest story ever told over film, and I believe ever, but that's besides the point because we're talking about movies. Now as for the filmmaking craft, it is excellent. I've seen almost every film now on the AFI list and there are not any that I think are better crafted than The Phantom Menace. None have costume design that amazing, none have effects that impressive, none are told in that same fashion because SW storytelling really is unique, even though it borrows from MANY influences (The Searchers, The Hidden Fortress, Seven Samurai, westerns, Saturday morning serials, etc.).

Oh well, I could type until I'm blue in the face telling you all of the wonderful symbolism and irony and dialogue and every other great aspect of TPM, but you still cannot appreciate great art when you see it, so there's no point. I certainly do know what great filmmaking is, though, and that is great filmmaking whether or not you appreciate it. That's really your loss because I'll continue to enjoy one of the greatest films of all time while you sit around and pretend to be a great fan who, obviously, doesn't understand the films you are a fan of in the first place. I think that's sad. But whatever. To each his or her won.

[Diego Van Derveld]

All of the Star Wars films are absolute masterpieces and if a person claims to be a fan and does not think they are, then they aren't a fan, or not a very good one, at least.

And who are you to quantify fandom?


The fact is, there are only a small handful of films that have stories as strong as the Star Wars Saga, which is the greatest story ever told over film, and I believe ever

The bold things don't go together in the same train of thought

I can think of about 30 movies off the top of my head that I prefer over TPM. Doesn't mean I'm not a SW fan though.

[Jinn Fizz]

Oh no, Pope Jon has excommunicated me too! :cry :cry :cry Well, Charley, I think you and I need to start a support group, 'cause I just don't think I can stand the pain alone! :cry :cry :cry

I'm not going to respond to the whole "true fan" argument again, because it's something I've had to listen to for over 3 years now, and it's gotten really really really old.

I stand by my previous statement...TPM is not a masterpiece. Like Charley, I can list lots of movies that I think were better than TPM. Doesn't mean I'm any less of a SW fan either, though. And thanks, but I don't need any lectures on the symbolism contained in TPM, or its history or influences. I know my Joseph Campbell quite well, thank you.

Or do I have to return all my toys to Hasbro? My posters, my books, all my Christmas ornaments that are hanging on my tree? Beg for refunds from theaters where I went to see all the movies? (Yes, all the movies, since I was actually around to see ANH, ESB, and ROJ on their initial releases?) Did I waste my time sitting in line for 4 hours in 1987 waiting to see George Lucas at the 10th anniversary SW con in LA? Should I burn all the fanzines that contain SW fan fiction I've had published over the years?

I think not. :p

[Dae Jinn]

yay! thank you Charley, and Jinn :lol. *scurries away*

[Jinn Fizz]

Oh, and as for the Original ST being "corny," I can name at least one episode that was, and still is, better than TPM.

City on the Edge of Forever.

"My God, Jim, do you know what you've just done?"
"He knows, Doctor, he knows."

[Jedieb]

I think some "fans" may have been preprogrammed into thinking TPM was the "greatest movie ever made" even before it opened. I say they're NOT real fans, just insecure lemmings trying to find a sense of worth in a series of movies and their box office earnings.

Man, that was harsh wasn't it? But, if the Pope can issue meaningless fan declarations then why can't I? :rolleyes

[imported_QuiGonJ]

Hi Jon.

Yes, Jinn Fizz showed me this thread.

I've been published in Cinescape defending TPM, and out of 150,000 applicants, this summer I was one of the first hundred people in the world picked to beta test Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided. During this past year, I've met Steve Sansweet twice, Mark Hamill, and both the exec producer and the community manager of SWG.

I think my credentials are solid as a fan of Star Wars.

But, while I still consider TPM the best film of '99 and think it's a fun movie, I dunno bout it being a masterpiece. If you watch the "The Beginning" on the TPM DVD, even Lucas himself thinks Jake Lloyd's performance was all over the place, and they had some pacing problems he thought they could only minimize but not eliminate.

[Dae Jinn]

I just find it amusing...I pop into a thread, and find Jons stepped in it again :\ Come on, Jon. You're a smart enough guy, why do you do this to yourself? I just saw TPM a little bit ago for the first time. It was good, but I've seen better.

[Jinn Fizz]

Originally posted by Sanis Prent
What? You mean Pope Jon excommunicated me? I have to turn in my shiny "Star Wars Fan" badge? So tragic...

Spare me, and listen to yourself for a change. Don't worry about ever getting trapped in a giant pumpkin, because you're out of your ever-loving gourd to begin with. When Lucasfilm makes you Viceroy of Fandom, let me know. Until then, here's a tissue...on me.

:lol :lol :lol

[Dae Jinn]

:lol

[Jedieb]

QuiGon and Lucas aren't true fans?! Off with their heads!!!! :lol

[Dae Jinn]

Oh no, not SW Nazis >_< :lol

Or have you just been reading too much Alice In Wonderland? :)

[Jedieb]

SW Nazis, "true" fans, what's the difference? :rolleyes

[Dae Jinn]

Bad hair-cuts and short pants? :)

[Jinn Fizz]

:lol

I love you guys!

:lol

[Jedieb]

Wait, which are the bad hair cuts the Jedi braids or the Nazi bowlcuts?:huh

[JMK]

Jon, I want to know, and I think everyone else here does too. Where the HELL do you get off issuing "true fan" badges?
TPM is a far cry from a masterpiece. It's good, and that's it. People will get different levels of enjoyment out of it, but that's not to say that it's a masterpiece. What a lousy statement you made.

You're like a blind sheep. You've already labeled Episode 3 as the best film of 2005, and they haven't even begun filming it yet! Hell, it's not even finished being written! That's sickening; I have high hopes for it, but I think I'll at least wait to see the trailer before I start handing out the oscars. And & please don't make me find the quote, you know, and everyone knows you said it.

Qui Gon, Jinn Fizz have made it clear that they are SW fans. They were into the movies before you, or even I were born. I've won SW trivia competitions, I've met many of the saga's stars, I've even dined with them and had a drink one on one with Jeremy Bulloch. We DO NOT need to hear you tell us that we are not real fans because we happen to think that TPM & AotC are not the pinnacle of filmmaking.

You may be the "KING of prequel viewings", and I would wager that Lucas hasn't seen TPM or AotC in its finished form as many times as you have. Does that mean you should go and proofread his script for Episode 3? No, because we know what you'd say "It's absolutely brilliant! Perfect! Don't change a syllable!"

So Jon, I want you to list the reasons why you think you're the greatest fan ever and why you deem yourself worthy of critisizing others.

[Jedieb]

All of you "fans" who've met SW personalities aren't "true" fans, YOU'RE STALKERS!!!! (I've got to come up with some criteria to make myself the one "true" fan. It's ALL I have!:rolleyes

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by JMK
So Jon, I want you to list the reasons why you think you're the greatest fan ever and why you deem yourself worthy of critisizing others.

*sits down for a 38 paragraph Jonathan reply*

[Diego Van Derveld]

Somebody get the popcorn going :)!

[Jedieb]

We're all so mean. Again, signs of non fans. >D

[JMK]

I think we should all have our memberships revoked. We're not big enough fans to visit a site called "swforums". We're not loyal enough. If we don't adore every single thing that GL puts on screen, in every aspect, we should go on trial for treason.

[Jedieb]

Why have a trial? We're not worthy of a trial!!! "Wipe them out. All of them!"

[JMK]

Jedieb! You've struck gold with that one my friend! A timely quote with the perfect line from the perfect movie!

[Dae Jinn]

Originally posted by Jedieb
Wait, which are the bad hair cuts the Jedi braids or the Nazi bowlcuts?:huh

OH LORD NO! :eek!!! Don't make me pick....Jedi braids with the bowl cuts maybe? :x


Originally posted by JMKI think we should all have our memberships revoked. We're not big enough fans to visit a site called "swforums". We're not loyal enough. If we don't adore every single thing that GL puts on screen, in every aspect, we should go on trial for treason.

Wow, how many times have people asked me why I'm here if I haven't seen TPM and AOTC :rolleyes Why not just shut down the board, and start over fresh? :lol Have everyone take some huge test to see if they're worthy enough to post here and be called a "true" fan lol!

[Jedieb]

You can leave the board, but your avatar has to stay here! ;)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

o_O to this thread.

What happened to Nemesis? :)

Oh and I was just rewatching the "original trilogy" of Star Wars....and I just love them so much more than the prequels.

*huggles them, even though they are the special editions and not the real real original movies*

[Jedieb]

What, you don't consider the SE's the definitive or "real" versions?! NON FAN!!!!! Ex-communication for Lilaena!!!! ;)

[samantha]

Originally posted by Jedieb
You can leave the board, but your avatar has to stay here! ;)

Ummm, no. I go, so does the avatar. (this is dae btw) And I haven't seen the SE versions either ^_^; Oopsy....

[Jedieb]

Oh my goodness!! This is truly a place of shame now!!!! The Pope must step in and elimate all of these heretics!!:rolleyes

[Dae Jinn]

I think you're just being a <smallfont color={hovercolor}>-Censored-</smallfont> disturber now :lol

[Jedieb]

a what disturber? ;) little innocent me?:rolleyes

[Dae Jinn]

Yeah, innocent little you *steals your avatar.......again* ;)

We should be nice, you know, love for your fellow fan and all.

[Princess Sunflower]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diego Van Derveld
And who are you to quantify fandom?


That's exactly what I was thinking.

Hey...Isn't there a movie coming out soon called 'Jonathan Almighty" with Jim Carrey? hehe!


I am a Star Trek AND Star Wars fan and just because you don't like EVERY aspect that doesn't make you any less a fan as I see it.

Here we go again with Jonathan dissing people here and on another thread about football. Then you wonder why people jump down your throat. Not too long ago you made a major statement on 11/8 that you were signing off the board for awhile because you don't appreciate being insulted constantly...well it works both ways as you can see by the responses here. You offer a lot to this board. I enjoy reading your reviews but don't appreciate your "If you don't like SW 100% you're not a fan comments".

Jonathan....tell me how many Star Wars Conventions have you been to dude???? I've been to NO SW Conventions because I know of none in my area but I go to a ST Convention every year. I don't think that makes me any less of a fan of SW.





:\

[Jedieb]

Stop stealing my avatar!!!!!!! I stole it fair and square YEARS ago. Why should we be nice? They're are no "real" fans around here anyway. ;)

[Dae Jinn]

we wantsssssssss it though! :lol

and we should be nice, because........aw frell it, no reason to be nice to anyone anymore :x Being nice because it's polite gets you no where

[Princess Sunflower]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JMK

You've already labeled Episode 3 as the best film of 2005, and they haven't even begun filming it yet! Hell, it's not even finished being written! That's sickening;

:rolleyes you have to be kidding me.

And please don't make me find the quote, you know, and everyone knows you said it.

Hmm...not sure what you mean JMK...

Anyways.... I got the popcorn popped and the pillows fluffed so everyone pull up a chair..this should be a good 38 or so paragraph response read like Dutchy said! LOL!

[Lilaena De'Ville]

:\ But, I dun wanna be excommunicated! :cry

The facts of the matter are:

Everyone has an opinion.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Sometimes you can even share your opinions with others.

Some opinions will get you beat up.

If you present your opinion as fact, you will be laughed at. Hence how long this thread has gotten.

I see problems on both sides of the argument here. *gives everyone the evil eye, then thinks better of it and tries to get it back*

So, I'm declaring myself the True Fan of Star Wars, in my opinion. There can BE ONLY ONE! *draws a sword and lops off Jedieb's head* >D

[Dae Jinn]

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!! omg....LD has gone ebil on us! *locks her in the pink room full of fluffy cute bunnies* >D

[Jedieb]

*jedieb picks head up off the floor and carries it on his hip. The head cries;*
"Why you do me so wrong LD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" :crack

[Lilaena De'Ville]

You never did know how to get ahead in life. :rolleyes


:lol

[Jinn Fizz]

bwahahahahaha!!!!!!!! :lol :lol :lol

[ReaperFett]

WHo the heck are you, Roger Moore? :lol

[Diego Van Derveld]

lol

[Jedi Master Carr]

I agree with you LD I really don't like seeing arguing over stuff like this. Sure I love TPM, it was my favorite film from 99 and I feel it is a great SW movie but I don't think people are stupid who think otherwise, and I also don't think that people who like it should be put down either so I would hope we can't start this bickering.

[Jedieb]

Back to the topic at hand, Nemesis now looks like it won't even reach $50M. A 76% drop that came off an $18M opening just killed it. After another $4M weekend it's at $33.8M. This has got to be the worst B.O. performance for any Trek film ever made. Nemesis may not even match Shatner's horrific directorial effort. This has got to be the end of the series. I feel bad for die hard Trek fans.

[Figrin D'an]

That's just sad, especially considering that it was a very good Trek film... it came out at the wrong time, though... films like The Two Towers, Gangs of New York, Maid in Manhattan, etc. are just killing it. Normally, Trek films hit theatres around Thanksgiving, but it got pushed back.

Of course, even with a Thanksgiving release, it would have gotten killed by Die Another Day and the second Harry Potter film. Poor Trek... the movie franchise really is going to be dead after this one.

[Jedieb]

I never really saw anything in the ads that I thought would get casual movie goers excited. Coming off that last odd numbered film I would have thought they would have tried something to create a buzz about the film. It might have been a major mistake to not play up Data's death. I think that may have gotten a few heads turned.

[Marcus Telcontar]

I just think Nemisis would have done a good deal better released at a different time. A week before TTT was B.O. suicide.

Oh and to being a "True Fan"....

OT is excellent. NT is okay. But so far LOTR takes a dump on the NT and could well beat out the OT. Does that make me any less of a Star Wars fan if I think that?

If anything, Lucas stuffed up the NT so far and left the door open for LOTR to sweep in and steal hearts and minds. the NT should have been what LOTR is turning out to be. Evnen in the field of effects, LOTR is proving the equal or even better to the NT - who would have hought that?!?! Your likely to see TTT in one of it's "weaker" markets beat out AOTC in one of it's strongest. It's no contest elsewhere, TTT has grabbed the minds fo the movie going public liek few movies before it has across the globe.

Face it, Star Wars OT still stands up against what is emerging as possibly the best trilogy of all time. But NT does not by any stretch. Only TPM's Box Office might be the only thing TTT does not beat. And right now, that's not certain. What's ROTK goignt o do? All those arguments used to "prove" the NT's brilliance or whatever are being demolished by the first two LOTR movies, exceeded in all measures by notible margins.

In less than a month, TTT coud beat AOTC TOTAL world wide. That spells volumes in what the public now think. Oh, I'm still a fan of Star Wars, I dearly love the OT. I just happen to think LOTR is emerging as something better.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Lets not get into a comparison crap I despise that there is no need to compare these films that is just stupid and wrong, I like both of them why go through the pain to try and say well this series is better because, whatever, I would rather just enjoy both of them lets not get into a pissing contest. About Trek well I think it just isn't popular as it once was and the casual moviegoer doesn't care about it really, the only way they could have created a buzz was if they brought an original Star Trek character back like Spock then maybe it would have done better, but I guess they didn't want to do that.

[Jedieb]

There's an idea. They easily could have brought Nemoy into the film and that would have created the buzz I was referring to. After this B.O. debacle there's no where for the franchise to turn to. Where are they going to go, Deep Space 9 the movie? I know the series has its fans, but it never really crossed over to the general public. I just don't see where Paramount could go next.

[JMK]

Stick a fork in it.
It's dead Jim.

[Princess Sunflower]

I really liked Nemesis. It lived up to most of my expectations. I feel they could have taken the storyline a little further with more overall depth and action scenes. I thought the storyline was very original. I was pleasantly surprised with the opening scene. It brought the series full circle for me. I did not expect to have the movie end the way it did though. Patrick Stewart did a superb job. I read somewhere that his role as Picard is really just an extension of himself. You can tell he really enjoys playing this character.

I did not like the grainy effect that was used in the desert scene at all..it seemed out of place.

I would say that The Wrath of Khan is still my #1 with Nemesis as #2 and First Contact as #3. The Wrath of Khan has one of the most memorable lines spoken by Khan himself. "Revenge is a dish best served cold". I absolutely LOVE that line and use it irl alot! hehe!

I can't wait for the Convention this weekend. It's a 3 day event that includes a dinner with the stars. Scheduled to appear are Robert Picardo and Ethan Phillips from Voyager, Armin Shimmerman, JG Hertzler and Robert O'Reilly, Mary Kay Adams, Max Grodenchik, Aron Eisenberg, Casey Biggs from DS9. Robin Curtis from STIII. Jerry Doyle from B5 is one of the guest speakers. His segment is actually for "adults only" so that should be interesting. Last year I got to meet Marina Sirtis and Michael Dorn which was really cool! They wouldn't allow you to take pictures with them that sucked but at least I got their autographs. Marina is really short and tiny where Michael is very tall and urrr...a hottie! Nana Visitor and Alexander Siddig <another major babe> was there too. I had no idea they WERE married IRL at the time. I heard they broke up tho.


It's very sad to see these B.O. totals indeedy but you are right ST does not have as wide appeal as SW does. I rather doubt that there will be another film because of the slaughter it has received and I don't find the characters from DS9 to be as strong as TNG characters to carry a film. I am sure there will be alot of buzz at the convention so I'll be curious to hear what other fans are saying.

[imported_Eve]

I think it's a bit arrogant to state to several people of sound mind that they have no appreciation for art. "Art is in the eye of the beholder." Even implying to people that their intellgence is lesser because they can't see what you see in a peice of art is... stupid.

Furthermore, a fan is someone who supports something. The level of support isn't defined. I don't have to submit to commercialism or attend Star Wars "church" to be a fan. I won't go to Star Wars hell if I enjoy another form of art that has nothing to do with Star Wars.

I'm pretty sure that Lucas wouldn't be proud that someone insults many of his other fan's intellects and generally inspires negativity with his words of fandom on a fan-based community, in the name of being a "true fan".

Now to Trek -

The grainy effect was likely to relay a sense of a brighter sun. Some planets will be brighter and darker, depending on their system's sun(s) distance and size.

Even though the Trek films may not make as much as, say AOTC, they still make money. As long as they make some money, they're still a profitable enterprise for Paramount.

I don't think DS9 or Voyager will work as movies, but perhaps Enterprise will someday.

[Princess Sunflower]

Eve,

That's an interesting thought about the grainy look. Never thought of it that way. But if that's the effect they were trying to get then it works for me.

Development of the Enterprise characters has a ways to go I feel. The first Season did not really dealve too much into their personal lives or even any personal relationships with the crew like TNG and DS9 did. I'm hoping we will see more development as the show continues. With this in mind it's too early for me to say whether Enterprise crew would be a good choice for the big screen.

[Jedieb]

I think Enterprise has another major hurdle against it; it's network. Where is it again, UPN, WB, PAX? I know I NEVER seem to be able to find it. It's never going to get exposed enough to make an imprint outside of its fan base. Without that I just don't see it being made into a feature. Paramount will still be able to make some cash, but it's going to take overseas money and videos/DVD's. They'll make far less on this movie than they have on any other. I just don't think they're going to go to this well again.

[Princess Sunflower]

Jedieb, I don't totally agree with you on the network hurdle. The original Star Trek series is the only series that was on a major network, NBC. TNG, Voyager and Enterprise are either on WB or UPN. Reruns of TNG are now shown on TNN and the original series is sometimes rerun on the Sci Fi Channel so the franchise is thriving thru what I consider the secondary channels.

I think Paramount purposely uses the secondary channels because of NBC's cancelling of the original series. NBC is probably kicking themselves in the foot for all the lost revenues due to its premature cancellation.

FYI....Enterprise is aired every Wednesday at 8:00 and repeated on Sunday nite at 7:00 on UPN. These timeslots are solid unlike some shows where they keep moving the shows around from week to week it seems.

[Jedieb]

NBC really didn't have a choice, they had to cancel Trek. The ratings were very low. That show took off in syndication. That's where it made its mark. It was one of the best shows on local networks thoughout the 70's. Back then you had the big 3, PBS, and your local station. You were sure to catch a Trek episode at least once a week and that's where the show really grew. Years later, TNG had a lot of hype going around it and a lot of publicity. It produced great ratings. But no Trek series has been able to generate that much excitement since. I'm sure many of those who watch it love it, but these new series just have not made the mark that that original show or TNG did. Captain Kirk is an American icon, but who the heck is the latest captain of the Enterprise? Most people have NO clue. Scott Bakula is going to be more well known for Quantum Leap than this new series. That's not a knock on the new show. I haven't even seen a whole episode. But it's never going to get the kinds of numbers to make it as popular as those first 2 series. The last episode of Enterprise ranked 94 out of 115 shows. Even for a rerun, that's low. Those numbers aren't going to propel you to a movie franchise.

I just really don't see a new Trek movie being made for years to come. Sorry. :(

[Princess Sunflower]

I agree with you on Enterprise. This show is just not strong enough to carry a movie nor do the current ratings help matters. I personally would not have chosen Scott Bakula for that role because of his role in Quantum Leap. If you had a choice who would you have chosen?

I feel the only hope would be another movie with the TNG crew and yea...that is not looking too good at the moment.

[Figrin D'an]

TNG was a syndicated show from the very start, so it showed on a rather large number of stations. That's part of the reason why it was so successful. Mass exposure. That and, like Jedieb mentioned, it was "new Trek", so there was hype. DS9 got resonably good ratings as well, but really was never embraced by the general public like TNG and TOS were. I really think that non Trek fans just got sick of new Trek shows cropping up. It really started to show after Voyager started it's run, and it's the same with Enterprise now.

Paramount and Rick Berman have been milking Roddenberry's creation for all it's worth, and people are kind of getting sick of it. I mean, when a TNG movie (a very good Trek film, IMO) does that poorly at the box office, it sends a pretty strong message.

I love the TNG and DS9 series, and I have enjoyed the films... but it's time for a hiatus.

[Jinn Fizz]

Oh, I totally agree, Figrin...the biggest mistake that Berman and Braga and company made was creating Enterprise. I don't hate the show, but I don't watch it because I found the pilot episode to be so incredibly dull. More or the same, nothing new. Plus I resent how I've heard stories about lots of episodes that have completely negated the original series, which makes me feel like Berman and Braga have, in essence, thumbed their noses at the original series. That makes me very unhappy. :(

It was the biggest mistake they could have made because the franchise is most definitely getting old and tired. They should have put the franchise to bed for about 5 years or so, then tried another series, not jumped right in. And it doesn't help that I've heard a rumor that they're already trying to come up with yet another series. :x

[Jedi Master Carr]

If they do that they will kill the franchise. Also, I read a report on yahoo, nemesis is currently 20 million behind the worst Star Trek movie ever, V, I guess that is the one Shattner directed right? I am not sure it will get any better overseas for it or with DVD (It could turn a very small profit) but I think it would be best if they just stopped it for at least a while keep trying to milk it will just make it worse.

[Jedieb]

Who would I have picked as the new skipper? I actually like Bakula and think he's a great choice. I don't know who's out there that would have been available and right for the role. Like some, I question the timeline they chose. I think they should have gone farther into the future. Going back to the past isn't a bad idea, but they should have taken more care not to trample on the OT. Sure, you're not going to have Klingons looing like they did in the OT, but there are certain instances in which they should have made sure not to contradict the old series.

[JMK]

Why on Earth would they do that? Its not like the movies are separate from the TV shows like SW, are they?

[Pilot Akito]

Accutally no they aren't. The Borg Queen is a perfect example, seen both in First Contact and in Voyager, is considered cannon for both. Unlike Star Wars where George Lucas says what stays and goes Star Trek has more of a mainstream corprate cannon these days since Gene is not at the Con. Now it seems that everything is not about a good story, but about making the bottom dollar bigger. Nemisis will not do that, I feel like it's being advertized like this...


GO SEE STAR TREK MOVIE! GO NOW! YOU JUST CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF STAR TREK.

I guess thats the kind of subliminal message that you have to manually say about 2001 times! And quite frankly Star Trek these days is nothing new. No wagon train in space like TOS, no high brow meets wagon train like TNG, no "lets throw everything out a wormhole" like DS9. No these days we get things like Voyager, good crew, bad premise, bad stories, and finally a forgettable ending.

God help me I used to be a Trekkie in High School, and now I see Star Trek as a dry sponge which everything has been wrung out of.

OK YOU CAN BLINK NOW.

[imported_QuiGonJ]

I just realized I didn't say anything about Nemesis... it's gotten a pretty good bounce this past weekend, and it's at $38 million. It could bounce back and beat Trek V in the end.

And to give my opinion, Nemesis was good, and the most fun I've had in a few films, and I did think the ending was effective. Saw it twice, something I don't normally do on any film in it's theatrical run, cept for Star Wars films.

I find Enterprise embarrassing with the constant efforts of Bannon and Braga to disrobe Hoshi and T'Pol in the supposed name of ratings. I guess they buy into the "nerdy male with no clue bout women" stereotype, instead of picking up that women like the show also.

And yes, I heard they want to go back to the well again with yet another series, but I hope they only do that with other producers, ones that might look for writing talent and stories to tell instead of just how to make another set of cool ships and how to pour some other chick into her outfit, and how to pour new scripts into old molds.