Film vs Digital Oscar debate

[JMK]

From the LA Times:

When director George Lucas made "Star Wars: Episode II Attack of the Clones," he recorded the action as a massive string of ones and zeroes, captured on digital cameras and augmented with special effects created on computer terminals. In some cases, it was shown in theaters with a digital projector.
"Star Wars" is undeniably a movie. But should the absence of actual film stock disqualify it from competing for a golden statue on Oscar night?

This distinction in language may seem insignificant, but these two little words -- "film" and "digital" -- stand at the center of a battle in Hollywood. The vocabulary shift is affecting everything from worker paychecks and union contracts to job definitions and distribution deals.

"It may be the most profound change that the entertainment industry has ever seen," said Jonathan Kuntz, an visiting associate professor in American movie history at UCLA's department of film, television and digital media.

The wordplay has been important enough to compel the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences' board of governors to vote on the so-called digital issue.

The summons went out last summer to the elite of the established film world, including actor Tom Hanks, director Michael Mann and cinematographer Conrad L. Hall. The governors gathered at the academy's plush offices in Beverly Hills and, when they reached the proper point on the agenda, began refining the technical definition of "digital" cinema.

What does it mean to be digital? Can an all-digital production be considered a film? What if the movie never touches celluloid, which is Lucas' goal for "Star Wars Episode III"?

The discussion, though engrossing, was brief. Raising his voice, Academy President Frank Pierson simply asked, "Who's going to call George Lucas and tell him his movie can't be nominated for an Oscar?"


Let the discussion begin! Is this just another way for the academy to shaft Lucas?

[CMJ]

This has nothing to do with Lucas. It's a reasonable thing to debate, but I'm sure all digital "movies" will be accepted as "films".

[Master Yoghurt]

I really hate the Oscars, but cant imagine they would implement it. Furthermore, it makes no sense. It is still a movie even though the media changed in nature. It is called the 'Academy of Motion Picture Arts'. AOTC contains moving images.

Radio, TV and rental video is also becoming more digital, but they are still the same media.

[JMK]

Good point. :)

[Roddy Two]

said Jonathan Kuntz

If I had that man's name, I would kill myself.

[Dae Jinn]

:lol

Could be worse, his first name could be Mike or something :\

And I don't see why it matters - a movie is a movie, no matter what the medium used.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Doesnt matter. A Movie is a movie, no matter it's medium.

[Darth Viscera]

A Movie is a movie, no matter its medium. And digital movies are better-more compressible.

[JediBoricua]

If you read the whole article (link at TF.net) you'll see that at the end the Board of Governors voted in favor of allowing digital films to be nominated, it is still a movie anyway.

[Jedieb]

I think the debate is rather absurd. Hell, film stock has been evolving ever since its inception. This is just another step in the process. I liken it to the transition from B&W to color.

[BUFFJEDI]

Originally posted by Marcus Q'Dunn
Doesnt matter. A Movie is a movie, no matter it's medium. I agree with Marcus.

Does anyone think AOTC will get any nod's. I personally think it will BUT get beat out for some trivial crap like TPM did by the MATRIX. That is almost the worst thing to happen in th oscar's next to Annie hall in 77

:x

[JMK]

That was part of my original point. What's the big freakin deal? It's a movie, just made differently? Will they say electric cars aren't really cars because they don't consume gas? Of course not. So what is the big argument against digital?

[Jedieb]

I think ATOC will get a few technical nods. It should win the FX award. Spidey looked good, but not THAT good. Actually, I think TTT may end up sneaking away with that award. AOTC may get completely shut out. :(

[JMK]

I have no doubt that it will. It beats Spider Man hands down, but TTT may be winner here. Not like I'll complain.

[Jedieb]

The more I watch my FOTR SE discs the more impressed I am with what Jackson was able to accomplish with FOTR. I've heard that TTT may be even better and that's a scary thought. A good kind of 'scary' though.

[JMK]

Totally scary in a good way. The extras really show how much they all achieved. I just can't wait for TTT!

[Jedieb]

In a way, I'm kind of envious of LOTR diehards. I think they're getting the kinds of movies some of us older SW fans we're expecting. Lucky bastards!!!

[JMK]

Yeah, I think I'm happy that the OT came out before either the PT or LotR.

[Marcus Telcontar]

:D

Mate, I'm not complaining in the slightest.

[JMK]

I didn't think you would Marcus. :p

[Jedieb]

That 4 disc FOTR set is just awesome. I've had all 4 discs in my player for a week now. I've seen the movie 3 times and I've gotten my wife through the first disc. She can only take 45 minutes of the movie at a time, but I'm getting the job done. I'm half way through the 3rd disc and it's really fascinating. I'm enjoying the movie more each time I see it. Jackson and his crew really did Tolkien justice. It was impossible for them to film the story page by page, but you get the sense that their first priority was to do Tolkien justice and I think they achieved their goal. The supplemental discs show the massive amount of work that's going into these movies. This production rivals the time and work Lucasfilm is putting into the prequels. It's really rather stunning.

[Marcus Telcontar]

That 4 disc version Ihave to agree even surprised me and I was expectign somethign excellent. That is top notch work and I soooo wish the DVD version was the theatrical one. The whole moive just.... works.

But damn, it would be a bladder tester.....

AND BRING ON TTT!!!!! I CANT WAIT!!!!

[JMK]

You're right. Is there any dispute that this trilogy will be mentioned in the same sentences as Star Wars from now?

[Marcus Telcontar]

No dispute at all. And with TTT looking like it's delivering, man I hope ROTK keeps it going.

DEC 26!!! 12:01am! PLEASE GET HERE!!!

[JMK]

The last two movies should be nothing but 6 hours of war & orcs smashing!

[Jedieb]

I can't wait to see the Ents. They're going to be freakin' AWESOME.

[JMK]

I'm very curious to see how they will look onscreen. What a weird & unique creature...

[JediBoricua]

*DOUBLE POST SORRY*

[JediBoricua]

AOTC loosing the Oscar to TTT will not bother me at all. Both houses (ILM and WETA) developed and expanded new technologies for their films, and they are at the same level SFXwise.

On the other hand when the Matrix won...I mean GAP had been doing that crap for a year before! Just the reminder of it makes me mad!

[Darth23]

Originally posted by Jedieb
In a way, I'm kind of envious of LOTR diehards. I think they're getting the kinds of movies some of us older SW fans we're expecting. Lucky bastards!!!


The difference between LOTR fans ans (some) Star Wars fansis that the Lord ofthe Rings have read the books - so they know basically what to expect.

Star Wars fans, on the other hand HAVEN'T read the prequel books well in advance, beacuse the books didn't exist, but they THINK they know what to expect anyway.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Did we?

Before FOTR, I was scared that the movie version would be a steaming pile. What we got was debateably 2001's best movie. Oh we knew the story... but how would it be transposed to film? What we got was beyond expectations. Totally beyond. That is why fanboys are so rabidly enamoured about Jackson - he delivered in spades what we could only dare to hope for. For once, we had a blockbuster that deserved every single plundit it got.

I think Jedieb is suggesting we LOTR fanboys are getting an experience what Star Wars fans really wanted. This is the type of thing that Lucas should have delivered, somethign that would meet what SW fans wanted so badly.

Instead you got what in the end could only really be described as nit really up to expectations. Admittedly very high ones, but the two prequels have fallen short.

While instead LOTR fans are getting more than they expected. And with TTT reviews already showing the second part at the least matches th first, its a good time to be a Tolkein geek

[JMK]

I don't know what the percentage is, but there is a significant portion of SW fans that are being let down by the prequels. Not so much with AotC, but with TPM. I don't care what the reviews say, or how much money they made, there just isn't the type of gushing over the prequels that there is for LotR, a story that is already known in detail. With SW, we know where the story is going ultimately, but not in detail. That leaves Lucas with much more leeway to surprise, but alot feel empty with the prequels.

[Jedieb]

The thing is, all I ever hear from Tolkien fans is how much they love the films they're getting. I'm sure they're are some fans of the book that are dissapointed or outright hate the movies, but I haven't seen any of them. It doesn't take long on any SW board or casual gathering of fans before you hear some kind of B&M'ing. I'm as guilty of it as anyone. But I don't have a choice. I'd be lying if I said that I thought Jake Lyold was the greatest young thespian of our generation or that Jar Jar is pure comic genius.

As for knowing what to expect, that's not really it. Whether you read the books in advance or not, you have an idea where the story is going. You've been in the universe for years now. Both groups of fans had HIGH expectations. It still comes down to how lines are delivered on screen, the quality of the writing. Part of me just expected the the prequels to grow up along with me. I got that growth with ANH and ESB. But ever since ROTJ the films have gone back to being made and delivered to 12 year olds. I'm still reveling in great moments (Yoda V. Dooku, hanger doors opening to reveal Maul, Coruscant city scapes, etc...). But I'm also getting scenes and dialogue that just don't go over that well. Meanwhile, I watch FOTR and I can't get over how much I'm enjoying the movie. There's no B&M'ing. Probably because I'm not holding it to the same standards that I hold SW. But what about the Tolkien guys? They've got high standards as well. Which leads me back to my original point. I think they're getting more of what they wanted than some of us.

Still, Yoda pulling back on his robe and drawing out his saber still gets me going everytime and it always will.

[JMK]

Obi Wan recklessly jumping through Padme's window gets me going everytime. What if he missed the droid?

It's all about credibility. Peter Jackson went to enormous lengths to ensure that he gave these fantasy movies a feeling that they actually did happen here on Earth. He also recognized the magnitude of a project like this and realized that above and beyond the grandeur of it all, characterisation and performance means much more than having great special effects. Maybe Lucas has taken on too much with the writing/directing/overseeing of effects. It is a real possibility, and I don't think anyone will argue that his main focus has been on the effects. Just watch the extras, listen to the commentaries. It was all about the digital characters, digital stunt doubles, perfecting water on Kamino. I understand that he's pioneering a new age in digital cinema, I get that, but there's a feeling that he's using the prequels as guinea pigs and forgetting about what truly makes a GREAT movie. A great movie is driven by it's characters, not the settings & effects. Jackson certainly hasn't forgotten that, and it shows.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I would rather not get into a debate about which film series is better to me they are both great and I have no complaints, not really anything major at least. I feel the same way BTTF and I will probably rank LOTR with SW and BTTF as my favorite films. Still I don't like comparing them because I can't they are different films, IMO and I enjoyed all of them so to me it silly to try to bash either one of them. Its like comparring HP and LOTR its a silly comparrison because they are so different, the only similarities they have is the fight between good and evil.

[Sene Unty]

I was really pissed last year when LOTR was beaten out of the best picture award by Beautiful Mind. Why'll I thought BM was a good movie, LOTR was just spectacullar. It deserved to win everything it was nominated for and I was really pissed when it didn't!!!!!!!!!! THIS YEAR TTT BETTER SWEEP OR I AM GOING TO OPEN A CAN OF WHOOP.....well you know! :D

That is all thank you! :)

[Jedieb]

I don't know if TTT will get a best pic nod this time around. It's going to have sequalitis to contend with. Godfather 2 is the only sequel to ever win a best picture award. I don't think any other sequel has ever even been nominated. Just getting a nomination would be an accomplishment.

[JMK]

I think it will, I saw a few clips of TTT (non-action sequences) and it looks like we can look for more great performances.

[JediBoricua]

I think it has a shot. This year has not seen many likely best movie candidates, so I guess a nom is not that farfetched.

What really pissed me off was giving Best Director to Ron Howard. Nothing against the guy, I really enjoyed his movie, but you cannot compare what Jackson accomplished with Fellowship. The mammoth task only deserves him Best Director for the next three years. I HAVE SPOKEN.

[JMK]

So you have spoken, so it shall be. :)

I hope.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Dang it I wanted to say that. :cry

:D

That, and I agree with 90% of this thread. :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

I personally don't think TTT will get a best picture nod because of the reasons Jedieb pointed out, mostly. If FOTR had won I think that would have helped better but a lot of the members of the academy will say well it got its nods last year. That is the way it will be plus there were people, won't name names here, that complained that it shouldn't have been nominated so that won't help it either.

[CMJ]

You ca name me, I don't care. :P

I enjoyed FOTR, but I found it *vastly* overrated.

[JMK]

Dang it I wanted to say that

Don't cry LD, you can say it too! Infact it'll sound much more believable if you do say it!

[Sene Unty]

:lol at JMK

I agree that Jackson should have gotten the best director oscar. He sure as hell deserved it! 3 years making three films with no break?!?!?! I MEAN COME ON!!!!!!!!! I saw the behind the scenes preview of TTT last night on the WB....man this movie looks awesome!!!!!!!!!

[Jedi Master Carr]

LOL CMJ you were one. There were some big critics too, Ebert and Roeper both come to mind, there were others, I remember watching CNN and there were big wigs complaining about it.