Dark Side / Light Side discussion

[Shawn]

I saw this mentioned elsewhere, but I didn't want to hijack the thread, so I'm bring it up here.

Very often, I see people referring to the 'Light Side' of the Force (which I don't think exists, as I will explain in a moment), and they refer to the Dark Side as if it were a tangible entity. Eg, "I commune with the Dark Side".

I don't think the Force has "Good" or "Evil" sides. It simply exists. It's how a person chooses to use it that determines whether it heals a wound or inflicts one. Like a knife, it can be used to protect or to harm.

When someone has "Fallen to the Dark Side" or "Let the Dark Side consume them", I imagine this as meaning that they have let their negative emotions, such as anger, hatred, etc, control their actions and how they use the Force. Not that they're using a different kind of Force.

Hence, I don't think there is a 'Light Side' of the Force. You can either use the Force for normal things (such as pulling something towards you), or use it to cause harm (such as flinging something dangerous at someone). Both are examples use the same ability, but it's the intent that changes whether or not these are Dark Side acts.

I think there's certain things a Darksider can't do, such as healing abilities. That doesn't make them "Light Side" abilities, per se: Just something which someone consumed by their hatred and anger cannot do.

Idealogically, the Jedi may refer to "leaving the Light" or "embracing the Light". But I think they're doing little more than lionizing their idea of "Enlightenment" by giving it an almost religious connontation.

Truth be told, it was probably the Jedi who developed the idea of the "Dark Side of the Force", making it a taboo subject. "He had a brush with the Dark Side of the Force and it nearly destroyed him".

But, ultimately, the Force is the energy field which surrounds all living things and binds them together. This encompasses both Life and Death, Creation and Destruction. But it is neither inherently good nor evil.

Discuss. Or ignore. :)

[imported_Grev Drasen]

Hm... I agreed with you almost entirely until the point where you said a Darksider could not use their Force ability for healing purposes. If there is no 'Good' or 'Evil', just the Force itself, I don't really see how healing could be limited to a Jedi only.

[Shawn]

Healing for one's self would be tenuous, and healing another person would be impossible, I think.

Simple explanation: Healing is a helpful attribute. You need to have feelings of compassion and empathy to heal another being. The Force seems to magnify and focus a person's emotions. This is why it's so dangerous for a Jedi to allow himself to feel anger or aggression, as it can easily overtake him. A Darksider who frequently healed other beings would be overtaken by a desire to do good, I think.

Healing yourself might still be possible because, let's say, you're determined to win a fight. But in my polar views, I don't think it really fits a Sith-type personality to be cater to 'weakness' like that.

I know my theory isn't 100% perfect, but I do think it's more of a solid reasoning than the classic Light Side/Dark Side idea, and is supported strongly by the movies.

[Severen]

I see where Nup is going with this and i to agree now. (Had to edit due to my question being the same as Grev). What about other force moved that jedi use, like the mind trick and such perhaps they could to be used by darksiders for there own personal gain?

[Shawn]

Basically, I don't think a person consumed by anger and hatred can muster the will to be charitable and help someone else. Healing themselves might be possible, but I think personality would play a big factor there.

Example: "Grrr! I'm going to kill you! Oh darn, you cut me. Can you give me a moment to heal that?"

Extreme example, I know. :)

I've heard of something called "Dark Side Healing". Basically, you can mend the flesh and bone, but it's painful and often leaves scars. This makes sense to me, since a Darksider wouldn't be concerned with alleviating pain, only fixing the wound so he can continue fighting. It's a quick-and-dirty fix.

Glad you brought up the point about Mind-Tricks: You see, in the books, there have been hints that using Mind Tricks may be flirting close to the Dark Side. Luke was hesitant to use them because of this. It's deceiving a person and, to a degree, taking away their free will, so it is harmful. But like a lie, it can sometimes help achieve a greater good.

I'm certain a Sith could use Mindtricks for their own gain. In fact, I'd bet money that that's exactly what Palpatine did. But again: Personality plays a role here. While it seems plausible and even likely that Palpatine used Mindtricks to get where he was, I doubt Maul would have bothered with such things. What Maul wanted, he would take by force. He was so consumed with anger that I doubt he would even consider trying to peacefully get what he wanted.

[Wei Wu Wei]

Ah, the good old Jedi mind trick. I remember in ATOC Obi-Wan used it to make a drug dealer stop selling drugs. In TPM, Qui-gon(sp?) used it for more or less personal gain.

[Shawn]

Qui Gon was trying to protect the Queen. That was his main concern when he attempted (and failed) to use a mindtrick on Watto.

Obi-Wan used a mindtrick to persuade the drug-dealer to not only stop causing harm to others, but to consider an alternate and more beneficial lifestyle for himself. IMO, it was a bit reckless to use a mindtrick for this purpose, as he could have discussed the matter with Sleazebaggano. But then, he was also pressed for time. :)

[Nathanial K'cansce]

I basically have the exact same thoughts on the force as you Nup. So yeah, I see where you are coming from and all that. And for the most part, that's how I play Snack out... there is no DarkSide or Lightside, only the Force and how you use it determines whether or not it's "dark" or "light".

Of course, one has to use Darkside or Lightside in describing things within RP's, only for lack of better terms.

[Taataani Meorrrei]

I see the Light Side / Dark Side issue as tenets of faith, rather than actual separate energy fields.

[Shawn]

Of course, one has to use Darkside or Lightside in describing things within RP's, only for lack of better terms. Exactly right. I was more addressing the context in which the terms are used, and the idealogies behind them.

As a funny footnote: I just got finished talking to Tondry. He asked me what I thought about the current trend in EU, about there being neither a Light Side nor Dark Side of the Force. :) I don't really read EU, so this came as a surprise. I find the timing interesting, though.

Edit for an interesting thought:

I've seen the SW Tabletop roleplaying game. If I remember correctly, Jedi can earn Dark Side Points for using violent powers or doing other un-Jedi-like things. This obviously represents them touching the Dark Side and risking being consumed by it. I think the same train of thought should be applied to Sith / Dark Jedi: If you consistently use your powers to help others (even other Sith), you should consider the possibility of your character having second thoughts about their lifestyle. In theory (and I do stress the word here), you get a good feeling from helping others.

Granted, it's much, much easier to fall to the Dark Side than to get out of it. The Dark Side is the easier path, and much more tempting. To use the Dark Side, all you have to do really is release your restraints, while absolving yourself of it requires implementing those restraints.

[imported_Akrabbim]

You're right about the Darkside Healing thing... it happened to Exar Kun, and Vader tried it on himself several times, but had trouble making it stick. As for using whatever for good or evil, I kinda agree. Look at Corran Horn. He used illusion all the time, and that specifically never tempted him to the dark side. He was tempted, but it was for completely separate reasons (i.e. going along with an evil female just to make things easier). Therefore, I don't believe any technique is good or bad. It's how you use it. I'd have no problem with a Jedi using Force Lightning. Basically, if you hit a person with Force Lightning, you can cause them to lose conciousness without leaving near as many wounds as you would with a saber. It's all how you use it.

[Shawn]

The thing with Force Lightning is that I remember recalling (possibly from the same tabletop RPG) that a Jedi is not supposed to use the Force to actually manifest energy. Back in his days as a padawan, Nupraptor had the ability to create a small defensive perimeter of flames. But after reading that, I ceased to have him use the ability.

It's very likely that it's just a part of their training to not do so, since I imagine the temptation to abuse the power would be great.

My main point, however, wasn't so much about who can or cannot use certain abilities (although that certainly becomes a topic of relevance), but about the connontations of the terms "Dark Side" and "Light Side".

I have no problem with, for example, a character saying "I forsake the Light". It's obvious that there's a religious connontation held there, and that they don't mean it literally. I do think it's strange, however, to say something like "I stopped using the Light Side of the Force", since I don't think it works like that.

[Severen]

I should imagine that the certain force powers that both the darkside and lightside have sole to themselves is because they were trained and taught those powers and not the perticuler ones that the other side has, if you get me meaning.

[Wei Wu Wei]

Force Lightning is considered a Darkside power. But do Jedi have a Force induced projectile attack too? Just wondering.

[Decon Wallace]

Although I am not the Star Wars enthusiast as some of this site, I don't believe the Jedi have any offensive abilities. Aside from abilities that could serve as distractions, and illusions.

Grev here, btw.

[Shawn]

I think the preferred method for a Jedi is to find something on the ground and use the Force to fling it at his opponent. Like hobbits throwing rocks. :)

Seriously, though... I think Jedi purposefully limit themselves as to what they're allowed to do so they're no tempted to misuse thier powers.

IC-wise, that's exactly what happened with my character; He limited himself and limited himself until he felt that he wasn't getting anything accomplished.

[imported_Grev Drasen]

Right, throwing objects that might divert their opponent's attention and serve as a distraction. But I don't think they have any Force ability that could be used as a direct offense, aside from Force push which is more of a distraction too.

[imported_Terran Starek]

Part of me totally agrees with you, Shawn. But the other part of me doesn't. I guess it stems from the fact that it always mentioned that the Force has a 'will.' Without some intelligence, a will could not exist. I mean an animal has no will--it only has instinct. It only has survival skills--eat, breathe, sleep. The Force must have some kind of intelligence behind it.

Many say that this exists soley in the midichlorians--you know, the theory of the light vs. dark powers. One identifying with the light would ask a midichlorian to do a task. One identifying with the dark would command it. I think this is true--this is the basis of communication.

I have to wonder, what is behind the hole thing? Men--or beings, rather? Or some kind of intelligence that powers this will? I don't know. Just something I was thinking about. Of course, I think no one is wrong. Afterall, this is the beauty of Star Wars--it is limited only by our own imaginations.

[Shawn]

I guess it stems from the fact that it always mentioned that the Force has a 'will.'That's what the Jedi say. "It is the will of the Force". It sounds like a figure of speech, to me.

[imported_Terran Starek]

Very true, it could be. Like that thing has a 'mind of its own.' We know it really doesn't have a mind, it's just a figure of speech. It could just be my need to find a mind behind the madness, I guess. I always think that there is one force behind the chaos. Maybe, in the case of the Force, it is soley up to interpretation, as you mentioned.

These discussions are fun and very intellectually arousing. Thanks for introducing the topic. :D

[Jeseth Cloak]

It's easy to describe the characteristics that make the Force "Light" or "Dark," but to actually speculate on things that haven't been covered by EU or the movies would be a bit pointless. While we could come to a mutual conclusion about the Force, it could be changed with the publication of a single book, or the release of one more movie.

I'd agree with Nup on most points he's made thought. I mostly use the terms "Light" or "Dark" for lack of having a better way of describing a characters alignment.

[Shawn]

but to actually speculate on things that haven't been covered by EU or the movies would be a bit pointlessIt wouldn't be speculation if it had been covered. :)

[Pierce Tondry]

*Raises a fan like a referee.* Point, Shawn!

A part of this angle has been covered, though. In recent EU novels, the concept of a "No-sided" Force has been put forth. At best, they've just covered the "Light and Dark depend on the wielder" idea, but haven't really gone into any other details.

Edit: I hate these computers. They always post before I'm ready and it pisses me off.

Anyway, I was about to continue by theorizing that an energy field can have a collective consciousness, drawn from those that are part of it. Although parts of the consciousness may go rogue and seek destruction, on the whole the field will seek to better itself and harmonize those that compose it unless there's a major majority seeking destruction and disunity. So in that fashion, the Force could have a "will", and individual feedback can affect that "will." And, from the point of view of a Light Jedi, their way is "listening to the will of the Force."

:)

[Jeseth Cloak]

I was reffering to the Force and if it had a will, or intelligence. :) I should have been a bit more specific, sorry.

[DarthHERA]

Somehow the force becomes a tangible thing though with a life of its own - it takes over and possesses - the darkside anyway. Vader kept saying it was too late for him, it was like he had become the darksides slave. He felt it was bigger than his own free will.

[Pierce Tondry]

But at the end, he admitted to Luke that he was right. :)

"Tell your sister- you were right." :)

[imported_Terran Starek]

Luke was right in the fact that there was good in him. He believed in the fact that Vader still had that Jedi spirit, that good soul inside. It was true.

However, coupled with the Emporer's constant deception and his own fear and anger, Vader--for those many years--was a slave to the Dark side. Untill Luke came and saved him by literally bringing out the good that remained in him.

That would be my own interpretation. :)

[imported_Jackson Mcgraves]

I like the way the RPG books explain it. lets say you where a jedi and you slowly begin to change and your action seem edge and you slowly drifted to the side of what people would consider evil. In the RPG books they call it Taint basically as a jedi you can do bad things but you will slowly be tainted into using the wrong means to suceed and become evil.

The difrence is that a Dark side person can do the same slow start doing good deeds and then slowly and progressively become good or what people would consider to be good anyway.

Dark siders can use Healing on other people but they begin to be change by the light and the Light sider (for lack of a better word) can use evil means to get what they need but will be tainted by the dark.

I don't think it should be wrong for any Jedi or Sith or Dark Jedi to walk the lines of what is considered good or evil.

The force is everything yet nothing.

[Silus Xilarian]

One thing about Vader saying it was too late for him......Sith is a religion just like Jedi...As in, they are taught to let the force consume them. It makes sense to me that it goes both ways. Vader couldnt turn away from the darkside because he actually believed he couldnt. Also you have to consider that he'd be giving up alot of power, and the greedy side of him may not have allowed it.....

On a side note also, this is just an opinion, but it seems like the Dark Jedi (on this board at least) seem to have adopted this idea to a degree. Wargrave taught Silus in this manner, and this is how Silus believes as far as the nature of the force goes.......

Hope that made sense :)

[Sean Piett]

Sounds realistic, but it doesn't take empathy to heal someone. It could be simply practical.