About Boba Fett

[Nupraptor]

A thought just occured to me: If we go by Timothy Zahn's explanation of the eventual insanity that befell clones, it had to do with the fact that two identical beings existed in the Force at the same time. This symmetry would eventually drive them insane. Hence why there are hardly any clones in the present SWU. Grand Admiral Thrawn figured out a way to circumvent this, by using the Ysalamiri to block out the Force while he was growing his clones. He was the first person to do so.

Nearly all of the clones made of Jango Fett eventually were either killed, or they went insane. Except one: Boba Fett. Why? If he spent the first 10-12 years of his life growing up around his genetic template, shouldn't that have driven him insane, as well?

[Abel Kannan]

I thought Boba was born by a woman...I can;t remember all the details.

[Chaos Alexander]

I was wondering what ever happened to the clones. Now I know.


My guess: It may be one of the many things in SW that contridicts itself. Like at the end of ATOC. They had teh plans for teh Death Star, but in teh books, it was said that teh research cent in the Maw Cluster made teh plans and created the Death Star. Tis a good question though,

[Wei Wu Wei]

I never knew that they had already had the plans for the Death Star in Episode II...

[Nupraptor]

Have you watched episode II?

[Chaos Alexander]

yep. That Genoian guy handed teh dount that Data Pad....and a hologram of teh Death Star came. I just watched that part again to make sure.

[JMK]

Lucas doesn't write the movies based on what's been established in the EU. He has no problems contradicting it if it makes sense for the movies. I don't know if the clones insanity theory is his idea, but if it isn't, then I doubt he'd pay any attention to it.

[Nupraptor]

I'm pretty sure it was his idea, but his explanation as to what causes it may be different.

Still, every other clone made of Jango was supposed to go insane, regardless of explanation. Why not Boba?

[JMK]

Perhaps the growth acceleration doesn't allow the mind to grow an mature at the normal human rate.

[Chaos Alexander]

Maybe he needed to be around the Template longer than he was. We grew just liek a normal person, I don't know much about the clones of Thrawn, but i am willing to bet they were aged some. It may be that the insanity starts at a later age, and Jango died before lil' Boba's brain matured enough.

[Nupraptor]

When Luke was cloned by Joruus C'Baoth (not sure if I'm spelling his name right), he started to feel the effects of being around his clone within a couple of minutes. He got headaches from being in such close proximity to an identical Force signature.

[Tyreal Dalarsco]

Here is what I think of it to balance UE and movies:
Only Jedi and Sith clones go insane because they are the only ones that can sense thier duplicate Force siganture.
The plans for the Death Star were only refined at the Maw Installation, but originaly developed by the Geonosinians.

[Nupraptor]

Only Jedi and Sith clones go insane because they are the only ones that can sense thier duplicate Force siganture.But all of Jango's clones were supposed to go insane, as well. That's why most everyone ceased to use clones after the Clone Wars. At least, that's my understanding of events.

The only Jedi clones that I'm aware of are Joruus C'baoth and Luuke Skywalker.

Edit ~

Whoever said the Death Star plans were developed on Geonosis? It looked to me as if they were just stored there. Dooku probably only kept one copy of them and, since he was on Geonosis, he would have them with him there.

[Morgan Evanar]

Jango's clones, as far as I know, were grown pretty slowly. The whole Army had been ordered at least 10 years prior, right?

Zahn, as far as I could tell, basically said that fast cloning was nearly impossible without insanity. Extra-specially for Force users.

[JMK]

Whoever said the Death Star plans were developed on Geonosis?
Because the head of the Geonosians said "If the Jedi discover what were planning to build we're doomed."
I interpret that as the plans being developed there, unless they're outsourcing. :)

[Nupraptor]

His statement implies they developed them there, but doesn't set it in stone.

If we go with the theory that he and the rest of his clones didn't go insane because they were grown slowly, then why did everyone discontinue use of them?

[Morgan Evanar]

Maybe the next film will explain it?

[Chaos Alexander]

Hopefully it will explain all.

[Nupraptor]

Well, that's a long way away. :) Until then, I'm going to speculate on the subject.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

The headaches Luke had was because he was Force Sensitive. Boba and Jango wouldn't have had that problem.

Also, ever stop to think that Boba might indeed BE INSANE?! He never talks. Hmmm... :p

[Figrin D'an]

The only explanation I can offer about Boba is simply that Growth Acceleration may be part of the problem, and since Boba wasn't subjected to that (no genetic alterations or growth acceleration, according to Lama Su in AOTC), he is more "stable" than the other Jango clones.


I have a feeling that this is simply a film/EU conflict... I mean, if you invoke the new Lucas revamped definition of the Force, including midichlorians, the clones that Thrawn created should go insane eventually anyway, unless they plan on carrying ysalamiri around on their backs forever. Growing them in the presence of ysalamiri wouldn't really matter.

[Sene Unty]

I thought the clones only went insane if they were grown quicker. If they were allowed to mature normally then they wouldn't be driven insane by the force........

[Evil Hobgoblin]

The explanatory theory that Leia puts forth in "The Last Command" deals with the rate at which growth acceleration is increased. Growing a clone sets up a natural symmetry in the Force, and growing a clone fast cuts the time the mind of the clone has to adjust to that pressure. Since the mind can't adjust, it breaks, causing clone insanity. With the ysalamiri in the picture some crucial aspect of the Force or the symmetry was supposed to have been blocked, thus allowing Thrawn to grow stable adult clones in a few short weeks.

The way Boba Fett was grown was much different from other clones. He was unaltered and not accelerated: brought presumably to 9 months of maturity and then "born", to be raised by Jango Fett the rest of the way. Thrawn theorized in "Last Command" that cloning Joruus C'Baoth and bringing him to childhood, then raising him the rest of the way would eliminate whatever insanity C'Baoth picked up as a result of being cloned and Boba Fett's case seems to vindicate this idea.

What will well and truly explain what happens once and for all is the end of the Clone Wars that we see in Ep III. If he confirms that fast-grown clones go insane, then it will vindicate this line of questioning. If he goes on a different path, say that the super-obedient clones can't psychologically handle taking every order that comes their way, or if the orders coming their way are divergent, then it leaves some room for compromise but for the most part, dispells the idea.

Either way, Zahn's stuff is still a good read.

[Sean Piett]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
The headaches Luke had was because he was Force Sensitive. Boba and Jango wouldn't have had that problem.

Also, ever stop to think that Boba might indeed BE INSANE?! He never talks. Hmmm... :p

Plus, he hits on women with hooves.


But why did people discontinue use of clones? Time for one, I'd say. Also, a million troops is hardly enough to enforce the Empire throughout a galaxy. The Kaminos probably didn't have the resources to produce as many men as were needed, and for some reason Palpatine didn't replicate their technology. Maybe Kamino was destroyed, and the technology lost.

[Wei Wu Wei]

I got a question. how long did it take for the clones to go insane?

[Jedi Master Carr]

First interesting theory but we must say that it may not work with the films, Lucas has said that the stormtroopers are Clones and this has been revealed in other sources, since this is now the case the clones would not go insane. So then there are two possibilities either the Kaminos were very good and this problem never happend with them and there were other cloners( Dexter did mention they were the best which would imply there were others) that Palpatine used that developed the ones that went insane. Secondly this may also only imply to Jedi/Sith Clones, showing why there aren't thousands of clones of Darth Maul running around.

[Jamel Croko'yn]

I dont know if certain if anyone else has noticed this, but George Lucas doesn't like following the book, he does it his own way for the movie that is. He isn't into the Expanded Universe so he wont differ his plans on one object because of a theory from the book.

:angel

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I doubt that this will come up in Episode 3 either. I am thinking that part of this will be explained in the new Zahn novel about Thrawn and the Outland Project coming out next year I think.

[Jedieb]

Oh it's been noticed by some, believe me. ;)

[Marcus Telcontar]

Zahn's doing another book? Ooh, EU worth reading!

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah actually I think he is writting two, I was wrong about the dates though they come out in 2004. One deals with Mara and Luke and they discover something involving Thrawn the second deals with Thrawn and the Outland Project. They should be good, and should help fill in some gap in the EU. I think he will clear up this whole EU mess involving Clones and the Clone Wars.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Most of the EU is just a plain mess and beyond help anyway. Me, I just like reading Zahn. He;s good.

[Jedieb]

I think Zahn will clear things up from an EU perspective. But, non EU readers are probably going to get the idea that Stormtroopers are Jango clones. The EU could go on and take it in a multitude of directions.

[JMK]

Isn't that basically what Lucas said in the AotC documentary?

[ReaperFett]

One book is Mara and Luke go off into the land of Zahn creations. The other is most likely the outboard flight project. He isnt touching this "mess" that doesnt exist :)



Remember what Dexter said about Kamino "They're cloners, Damn good ones". So, there has to be others. The ones that made insane clones? Damn bad ones :)

[Darq Kaznor]

yeah, jumping in at the tail end on this discussion but i just want to clarify that Jorus C'Baoth was the original and Joruus was the clone. this clone was grown too fast and was thus affected by the whole insanity deal

[Jedi Master Carr]

Palpatine must have got desperate and needed more so he went elsewhere. Also I think most stormtroopers are clones of Jango, now I am thinking they may have started making clones of clones which is why they are terrible shots :p

[ReaperFett]

I still see it like this. Some Stormtroppers are clones, not all Jango, and some are human. Too many things in the movies make me think that they're not all clones.

[JMK]

I don't mind the "clones of clones" explanation that JMC put out there.

[Jedi Master Carr]

They all seem like clones in the movie the whole thing where they are called by a number instead of by a name is just really odd, it really dehumanizes them. As far as the books well I guess there are a couple of examples of normal people who became Stormtroopers, maybe the Empire became desperate during the fight with the Rebels.

[ReaperFett]

- Why arent officers clones?

- Why the different voices from Jango?

- Why did they clone such a bad shot?

- Why did the pilot in the TIE pull SIDEWAYS! No good clone would do that.

- Why did they not use voice recognition equipment?

- Why didnt they have jobs open using DNA, fignerprints or similar?

- WHy did noone notice the "troopers" in the detention cell had different voices?

- What academy are Luke and Biggs going to?

- Why does Biggs talk about the EMpire drafting him into service?



Answer all of these you must have for me to listen to if you want me to think all STs are clones Mr Lucas, yesss, mmm :)

[Darq Kaznor]

most of you questions i don't know and most likely no one but lucas does, howver....

- Why arent officers clones?
it takes much more training and intelligence to command than to point and shoot a blaster. however there are kindof officers in ep.2, denoted by colors.

- WHy did noone notice the "troopers" in the detention cell had different voices?
if you're talking ep 4. ANH, its because not all stormtroopers are clones at that time. individual troopers are introduced in the books, eg. Davin Felth

- What academy are Luke and Biggs going to?
um....luke never went to an academy, He and Biggs wanted to attend the Imperial Space Acadamy together. biggs got accepted but luke never went cause of the Lars'

[ReaperFett]

um....luke never went to an academy, He and Biggs wanted to attend the Imperial Space Acadamy together. biggs got accepted but luke never went cause of the Lars'
Well, I meant Luke is going as in the farrrrrrr future :)

[JMK]

- Why arent officers clones?
As stated above, it takes alot of intanglibles to command rather than point and shoot.

- Why the different voices from Jango?
Because Temuera's voice was probably much different 25 years ago. This is something I wouldn't be surprised to see changed in the next SW movie.

- Why did they clone such a bad shot?
Suspension of disbelief. If thousands of stormtroopers were good shots, then the movies would be pretty short. Besides, they were pretty decent shots when the main characters weren't involved.

- Why did the pilot in the TIE pull SIDEWAYS! No good clone would do that.
Huh?

- Why did they not use voice recognition equipment?
In Episode 4? Wha???

- Why didnt they have jobs open using DNA, fignerprints or similar?
Because nothing in movies is completely tight and not prone to plot holes. My take? The Empire figured that the Death Star was probably secure enough not to need those kinds of measures.

- WHy did noone notice the "troopers" in the detention cell had different voices? See above

- What academy are Luke and Biggs going to?
The same academy that trains officers.

- Why does Biggs talk about the EMpire drafting him into service?
:huh To get off Tatooine, get some military training and then defect? Like Solo? Possibly?

[ReaperFett]

- Why did they clone such a bad shot?
Suspension of disbelief. If thousands of stormtroopers were good shots, then the movies would be pretty short. Besides, they were pretty decent shots when the main characters weren't involved.
Yeah, but the Clonetroopers were excellent shots. So why suddenly use incompetents?


- Why did the pilot in the TIE pull SIDEWAYS! No good clone would do that.
Huh?
ANH? End? Reason Vader spirals off? A prime example of a bad pilot. As in, not one you'd clone :)


- Why did they not use voice recognition equipment?
In Episode 4? Wha???
If youre entire army are clones (And to stop this problem, officers as well), surely your security would be simple to make almost impregnable?


- Why didnt they have jobs open using DNA, fignerprints or similar?
Because nothing in movies is completely tight and not prone to plot holes. My take? The Empire figured that the Death Star was probably secure enough not to need those kinds of measures.

And the ROTJ Bunker. And the Imperial shuttles :)


- What academy are Luke and Biggs going to?
The same academy that trains officers.
So why did Biggs become a pilot?


- Why does Biggs talk about the EMpire drafting him into service?
To get off Tatooine, get some military training and then defect? Like Solo? Possibly?
No no, you dont follow. If the Empire is entirely clones, why would they draft him?



Just to reclarify, these are arguments to why ALL Stormtroopers cant be clones, as some claim. TF.N purists mainly ;)

It's hilarious at times. Because Luke was a little short to be a Stormtrooper, this means all Stormtroopers must be clones, and that is conclusive evidence. They should do standup :lol

[JMK]

Yeah, but the Clonetroopers were excellent shots. So why suddenly use incompetents?
They had alot more targets to shoot at than stormtroopers



So why did Biggs become a pilot? The rebellion was desperate for pilots.



If the Empire is entirely clones, why would they draft him?
The Empire does not consist entirely of stormtroopers IMO.

[ReaperFett]

The rebellion was desperate for pilots.
"Ahh mr Darklighter. Officer training eh? Well, we have just the spot for you" ;)


The Empire does not consist entirely of stormtroopers IMO.
Nor me. And thats a reason why :)

[JMK]

Well I look at it this way: Lucas strongly hinted in the AotC commentary that all stormtroopers are clones, even from the OT. It may be hard to defend at the moment, but it's his story, not the EU's, so what he says goes. If he wants to make further changes to the OT in the future to clarify that, then so be it. The way it is now this debate will go on forever. Lucas has left a million holes for punching into this theory, then again he did state his thoughts. Now its up to him plug up those holes.

[ReaperFett]

Well, it's best to follow my way of thinking, IMO. Lucas' word is the lowest form of "officiality" that there is. The prequel books he does take more of a hand in than before, so there is a chance he is suggesting things that he is planning to use later on. Wheras what he says changes over time (He did once say Sebulba would be in EP2. He wasnt :))

[JMK]

Lucas' word is the lowest form of "officiality" that there is. I'm not quite sure I get what you mean. Surely you can't be suggesting that Lucas' word on the SW universe---what he created carries less weight that an EU theory or even an EU author?o_O

[ReaperFett]

his WORD is a long way from his WRITINGS. Wheras the EU has the chance of Lucas asking them to add something, or NOT add something, for what he is planning. This is different from if he says something spur of the moment in an interview. So while they are both not a touch on the big top level, I feel that if the guy is watching over the prequel novels as has been said, he would never be spur of the moment. Follow?

[Jedieb]

Lucas' word is the lowest form of "officiality" that there is.
Hmmm, Lucas' lowest form of officiality or reaper's EU imagined "best" way of thinking of things... I wonder which carries more wweight in the SW universe? ;)

I wonder if anyone walks around the set of the prequels telling George he CAN'T do something because if doesn't quite jibe with the EU?

[Jedieb]

- Why did they clone such a bad shot?

- Why did the pilot in the TIE pull SIDEWAYS! No good clone would do that.


Simple, Fetts are notoriously clumsly buffoons. They bang their heads into half the doors they walk into. They're incapable of using their jetpacks in any kind of battle without destroying them. They get their heads lopped off by Jedi with girlish purple lightsabers. They get defeated by half blind disoriented smugglers. Finally, they flail their arms and scream like women whenever they fall to their deaths. Again, they're buffoons! :lol

[ReaperFett]

It appears you are bashing me over actually reading what I said. You see, I said the EU prequel novels apparently get a close watchover by Lucas, more than the other novels. This is so they "gel". Hence, it's HIS word that he wants to happen over HIS word that he says in interviews. You know, like Sebulba being in EP2?


But feel free to ignore that. Hey, dont let me get in the way of your bashing :rolleyes

[JMK]

No one's bashing. We're strongly disagreeing.

I hardly call an AotC commentary a "spur" of the moment interview. They even went through the effort of smacking Jango's head on the door just as with the Stormtroopers in the OT. A clear visual link IMO. Not to mention a confirmation.

Besides, what part of the prequel EU novels relate to the stormtrooper argument? I haven't been reading EU trash for years.

[ReaperFett]

Yes, and he even went thorugh the effort of knowing Jay and Silent Bob mentioned the Death Star workers ;)

And none relate to the argument yet as no Clone War novels have been released yet.

[JMK]

Dear lord, now you're counting Randall's musings as canon? :lol

[ReaperFett]

lol :)


No, my point is that youre saying it is hardly spur of the moment. I disagree, I feel that is what makes them so fun. Doesnt mean theyre always accurate though :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think I can answer you questions

- Why arent officers clones?

Simple the clones are stupid there is no way they would be allowed to be in a position of power

- Why the different voices from Jango?

Just a mess up by Lucas's part really I bet you they will fix that with the next release

- Why did they clone such a bad shot?
Like JMK said remember Obi-Wan's line to Luke, "Only Stormtroopers are this accurate." So it shows that they are good shots maybe the force was on Luke, Han and Leia's side all that time.

- Why did the pilot in the TIE pull SIDEWAYS! No good clone would do that.


Okay here is my theory I think the Empire decided that Clones were no good as pilots, I mean think about Pilots are a more difficult position, they would want a pilot to accidently take down and Imperial Star Destroyer because the officers feel they are incompent so they set up an academy to train pilots.
- Why did they not use voice recognition equipment?

- Why didnt they have jobs open using DNA, fignerprints or similar?
Simple the Empire was way overconfindent, which was their downfall
- WHy did noone notice the "troopers" in the detention cell had different voices?
Same as above


- What academy are Luke and Biggs going to?
The Naval academy as I said for pilots
- Why does Biggs talk about the EMpire drafting him into service?
The same as above

I think this answers them, to me 99% of stormtroopers are clones (of either Jango or clones of clones) now the pilots don't count they aren't stormtroopers, Stormtroopers are the grunts like the Army, so they wouldn't be doing the flying. Not because they aren't capable, but because of arrogance on the part of Emperial heirarchy they would feel that clones are only good to do the ground fighting and the rest needs to be done by people with more intelligence.

[ReaperFett]

Simple the clones are stupid there is no way they would be allowed to be in a position of power
What about the Squad leaders?


Okay here is my theory I think the Empire decided that Clones were no good as pilots, I mean think about Pilots are a more difficult position, they would want a pilot to accidently take down and Imperial Star Destroyer because the officers feel they are incompent so they set up an academy to train pilots.
If we see this, then thats a good answer. AS OF NOW, Clones are pliots according to EP2. But I like that, fixes the Biggs and Luke problems too.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think they can be pilots, Jango was a good pilot afterall, it is likely though that the Imperial brass decided that Clones weren't smart enough to be pilots or weren't dependable enough (maybe one of them did something to help prove that point). As for Squad leaders well, I don't think they are in a position of authority like officers are I doubt a Squad leader could ever move up, maybe a certain percentage of the clones are given better reasoning skills and that is the one who is Squad leader other than that, I really don't have an answer.

[JMK]

It doesn't matter that some of the clones are squad leaders. They are TOTALLY obedient. If you tell 1000 clones that clone #1001 is their boss, then that's it. They listen to that person because they have been bred they way. They may (or may not) be trained the same way, but some of them get a stripe on their armor making them a leader of sorts. That's all a totally obedient clone needs.

[Pierce Tondry]

One thing I feel I should mention...

The clone army in Ep. 2 was bred to destroy droids. Humans are not droids, and I would think that the difference between the two is large enough that a particularly innovative group of people in an unusual situation could outperform the clones in spite of their natural skill and training, even adapated as it probably is over the intervening twenty years between Eps 3 and 4. In out and out military action, the clones would probably perform much better, especially if they had non-clone officers directing them.