Democracy Has Failed. (Or: The Ugly Cycle)

[Morgan Evanar]

Its a well known fact that closed threads create rounds of crying, whining, instances of "dictatorship" and other stupid things.

This happens because such behavoir is tolerated here. Drama queens in other forums are dealt with, its a pretty simple matter there: those in charge are those in charge, and you follow the rules of sense and the rules that are posted. If you don't, you get banned when the administration tires of you, or the posters run you out.

This happens here because of the bizzarely tolerant administration, and whatever screwy basis it was founded on in the depths of time 3 years ago.

I feel that the facade of democracy be dropped, and start running this like a real forum, because right now, you all are failing.

I wouldn't make an announcement either. Just start using real, genuine tactics that work everywhere else, such as www.ttlg.com or Something Awful.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I agree, this is not a democracy. But if we change everything all at once, people will jump ship and we'll just be sitting here posting to ourselves. Maybe.

[Morgan Evanar]

Well, the change won't be announced, and after the issue currently on everyone's plates, it should be implimented. You don't need to annouce that you're banning someone. You do it. If the issue comes up, you talk about it then. Stuff like that. If there is discussion regarding banning, the general populace never sees it. Its just done.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

right. Understood.

[ReaperFett]

I prefer the friendly atmosphere over a dictatorship. Just needs refining.

[Morgan Evanar]

Its had 3 years to refine itself and has failed. Good forums are dictatorships, and you don't know they're there until they can someone, or slap a poster. Otherwise, people are free to go about their bussiness.

[Figrin D'an]

The major problem with trying to implement that new type of system is detachment... or lack thereof. The problem is, everyone here who is a mod is an active RPer and OOC poster. To run this like a "real board," you need to have at least part of your staff that is nearly completely removed from the general populous, and strictly running things from the background. Otherwise, you'll end up with people complaining of a conflict of interest, ever more so than now.

I have to agree with De'Ville's comment... people here are too used to the current system. We can tweak it some, but if a fundemental shift in philosophy occurs, a large number of people will leave. I'm not sure thats really fair to anyone involved.



I really feel that the best change we can make to the status quo is just get every staff member, for the main board and the group boards, on the same page... we need a punishment policy in writing, not just the "play-it-by-ear" approach that exists now. Draft something that every mod/admin needs to stick to for dealing with rule breakers, and post it for the general public to see. That's why people are whining so much... they have the perception that the staff is inept and can't make clear-cut decisions on how to deal with problems. Give them something concrete to change that perception, while still making it known that the staff is still approachable and a generally friendly bunch.

[Pierce Tondry]

I've always had a "point of no return" policy whenever I've had to deal with a dispute (which hasn't been much, I'll grant you, but it's worked where I have used it). But I know when things are going downhill, and I know that when the verbal fists start swinging, things need to be cut off and taken to PM, usually with a mediator.

[Morgan Evanar]

Oh yes, more writing, yay. Or, the staff could quit playing nice and start running things like every other good forum does.

Like I said, it wouldn't be immediately obvious. There have been "huge droves of people leaving before." These are almost always the troublemakers, such as people from TSE or TGC (gross generalization, although somewhat accurate), and its been for the betterment of the board.

[Figrin D'an]

Very well. I can see my opinion is going to be mocked, so I'm going to stop giving it.



Do what you will. I'm finished with this and all related discussions.

[Navaria Tarkin]

-_-

guys, this is exact reason that people are whining about us because right here proves it.

How the hell can the staff run the damn board with us acting like this in the forum?

This is to HELP us run the board better and work as a TEAM.

Now... unfortunately, we cant just become dictators. Doesnt work why? The reason that this place is successful on a certain level is because it is laxed.

We keep talking about writing up rules for punishment, as we are doing with the three strikes rule that Gav brought up. Considering the severity of gue, we need to add to the FAQ the policey when it comes to punishment. We hardly do punish someone which is why we don't have it. There is going to be that person, Gue ... that ruins it for the rest and now it is something that needs to be addressed.

Fig ... please, your constructive critisicm is what we need here.

Morg ... There are other options besides yours and I am willing to listen to them all.

Now .. can we get back to doing what needs to be done here?

[Morgan Evanar]

I mock it because I find the idea absurd. I'm not mocking you, or your opinion really, I'm mocking your proposal, because I think its absolutely doomed to failure.

You can't have guidlines that cover every possible instance, and troublemakers will always find loopholes. And because it wasn't "in the rules" they'd get away with it, which happens with very clever criminals in our current system of law in the US.

Fig: I'm sorry. I just see it as more of the status quo, and I hardly meant it as a personal attack. If that was done in person in casual conversation, I would have added some absurd accent and physical gestures, and instead I sounded really harsh. I still think its a bad idea, but I'm glad you brought it up so I could try to shoot it down.

[Pierce Tondry]

Wow, talk about timing. I was just talking about this kind of thing.

Morg: I'm positive you can find better ways to express yourself than the way you have been. Perhaps a little more forethought on your part could help you in that regard, eh?

Admitting you can be harsh and actively finding ways that aren't harsh are two different things.

Edit: Wow, I hate this computer. The mouse cursor is going all over the frickin' place, and I'm hitting all kinds of buttons by accident.

Anyway.... back to the topic at hand.

I'm thinking it would be a good idea to make "official" actions pretty much dependant on the discretion of the responding party. I also think it would be a wise idea to make staff accountable to one another, where a majority vote of... I dunno, Admins and RP mods, maybe?... can overrule the statements by an individual Mod.

[Marcus Telcontar]

I think there as to be a mix. It's always been my opinion that GJO (for example) gets run as a dictatorship. But it's a benvelolent one. I've personally strived to make GJO a friendly, open and welcoming place where everyone can RP, regardless of where they have been, come and gone. It's also a place of second chances. And people learn that the scary monster Marcus is actually a very considerate an plesant guy.

I've always told the staff of GJO that they can act without asking and unless it is something so compltey unfair and wrong, I'd always back their calls. I dont think it's ever gotten out of hand this system, it to me has worked quite well, also because I hold myself answerable to Yog at all times.

That's really the best way a forum to be run - a good set oof admins who are accountible to someone. Not the posters I might add, someone resonable and fair.


Now, I would say that Chris and co. do a fantastic job with SWFans and have for a long time, I dont believe there can be any real complaints, but certain people over time have made out Chris to be a nasty dictactor, which undermines his authority. The way I have dealt with this at GJO is simply say "Yes, I am"

Plus we do have the "good cop, bad cop".

I'lll have to end this quicky cause I have to go out... but SWFans Admins need to assert authority at times more and also at times in no uncertain manner. I can well understand how accusations of bias and dictactor can be wearing when you know your not, but sometimes you really do need to forget democracy and simply act. When it's all said an d done your the one who runs the show on behalf of the board owers and sometimes you word must be law.

But not too often. HAve to strike a balance somewhere.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Oh, one more thing...

Chris (SWFans, you are to be commended for proving time after time that SWFans is not a dictactorship. You hold votes on everything, you consult and only when there is consensus you act.

However, I would say that I for one would not mind you simply biting back when someone accuses you of being a total dictactor or gets out of line and other manners.

[imported_Eve]

Our methods don't work. And Gue is your perfect example. How much time have we spent on Gue? How many threads have been dedicated to him? How many warnings has he had?

You're not going to lose people if he gets banned, trust me. If people leave over that, then ask yourself if you want people who condone behavior like that here in the first place. TSE left, and people generally liked them more than Gue, and I don't think it hurt us. In fact, the only bad element since their departure, is Gue.

Leadership - and this is something I happen to have lots of experience in - doesn't "rule: (can't think of a better word) (1) based on the worry of what people think of them, (2) is consistent, (3)abides by rules and laws, (4) and is strong.

So how are we doing?

(1) We worry so much about backlash, that we don't act. I heard it already a few times here, and in several other threads. Is a good leader scared? We don't play games. We're not here to be buddies. We're here to make sure this place runs in accordance with the rules and regulations. And we don't explain ourselves for the mere fact of making people feel all warm and fuzzy inside. If mods were feel-good agents, they'd be named "Buddy".

(2) We're not consistent, because we have warned him (as far as I know) several times about being permanently banned NEXT TIME... a couple times. Next time someone plaigerizes, they'll get banned immediately. Know what that person will say? "But Gue got ONE MORE CHANCE! This is unfair!"

(3) Abides by rules and laws? Nope. Plaigerizer is allowed to stay.

(4) Strong? Nope. We're scared and inconsistent. This is where backlash comes from, not because we ban someone for breaking a law that exists in most places of the world.

They say people that feel guilty are guilty. If you're doing the right thing, and adhereing to rules and laws, what can anyone possibly say to you?

I mentioned being more professional. We talked about it, but nothing is done. When we do reprimand someone for a post, often times the mod is emotional and ourbursts with a personal remark. We call some threads spam, and yet spam ourselves. We wear the same name when we mod, as when we make a remark in some OOC issue.

THIS is why the people yell and scream when we do something. What do you expect? The staff is emotional and inconsistent. Most of you are a personal friends to me, and I'm even losing faith.

We start being consistent, revise a great set of rules and regs, and abide by them, you'll see a difference here.

We're anything but sensitive if we can't see that Gue got this far ONLY because of us. This is our chance to start being good and respected leaders.

Side note: I hardly know Gue. I have no emotional bias here. I saw the situation as an outsider. Please take it for what its worth, and by gawds don't take this personal. It isn't meant that way. I just mean to help.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I agree with..I can't remember who now. BUT: having a clearly written set of regulations for staff members that is posted somewhere (a link on the Portal page?) that tells the procedure we use when dealing with spammers, plagriarsierssdklkfsd, trolls, and flame wars.

That way the staff can be unified and on the same page. RPing mods won't have to run to someone and say "If it ok if...?" We'll just know. I'm a n00b to being an RPing mod, but I don't want to be stuck in the same situation as I was two nights ago, when the fiasco with Gue being improperly banned occured. As a side note, Charley did communicate with him about the accidental banning. So he knows he is not banned right now, but I haven't seen him post since then.

For group mods: your rules are your rules, and thats fine.

[Taylor Millard]

I'd give more, but I'm pretty sick right now.

All I can say right now is. I agree with Eve.

If I feel better tomorrow I'll explain more then.

[Nupraptor]

I agree in that I think this place should be run more like a normal messageboard. This is the only board I know of where posters throw a temper tantrum when a thread gets closed or a post gets edited. BUT... that's how people have grown accustomed to the place being run. If we up and change it, we do stand a good chance of driving people away.

I don't think it's because the staff interacts with the posters: That happens at most boards. In fact, you want your moderators to be someone who is well-known in the community, so people will afford them a little more respect.

[ReaperFett]

Nup, you think this is the only place? Go TF.N :)


But if theres such a big problem, why are we not always in the bleep, so to speak? Remove the Gue situation, and the last major problem was......god knows, but ages ago.


The problem with Gue is he does nothing that major. If he was at TF.N doing all this, he wouldnt be perma-banned. It'd be a lot of 24hr spanks and the like.



You want to change it? Fine. But dont expect all the people who post here due to the friendly atmosphere to stay.

[Morgan Evanar]

I don't see how removing someone who harrasses and spams the board throwing the friendly atmosphere out the window.

What makes the atmosphere so friendly? An administration that seems to have all the spine of a doormat? I don't follow you where this "friendly atmosphere" has to dissapear because the administration bans a few people who deserve it.

[ReaperFett]

Okay then, what would be your criteria for "deserves it"

[Morgan Evanar]

Continous spam over the course of more than three months. Plagarism.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Gue has also stopped spamming. To be honest my head spins every time I think about this.

I like the atmosphere here. I think that our guidelines and reasons to perma-ban people should be clarified, and put somewhere so people KNOW, and don't have the excuse "Well...no one told me not to." Put it in the terms of service that they have to agree to....so we can say "Yes, you agreed to this when you became a poster."

Then the offenders cannot wriggle through a loophole, and we'll know exactly what to do with them.

Not all offenses deserve banning.

[Sanis Prent]

I don't know why we don't add a loophole-killing clause into the FAQ, empowering "actions deemed necessary", which something like this would fall under. I mean, jeez we all know the plagiarism thing was wrong, but the only reason we didn't drop the hammer was due to precedent.

Putting the loophole killing clause in would give us the ability to snag those that try to squeeze in between the rules.

[ReaperFett]

What, you mean like people who have used swear words but changed a letter?

[Xazor Elessar]

I have been so confused about that rule, Fett......if you want to say something, and you change a few letters so it's edited, is that against the rules? Like.....frell.....that's the combination of a few words, actually. Or if you go f**k? Is that wrong? No one has been terribly clear and I haven't checked the FAQ's or whatever recently to remind myself. I think I knew once but don't anymore. Bah....

Anywayz....I agree with Eve, but I'm a bit too tired to explain myself right now......

[Nupraptor]

"Frell" is a word from the TV show, Farscape. Saying "f**k" is not appreciated. Saying "sh-it" is definitely a no-no.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

shiit falls into that as well, as does @$$ correct? Basically, circumventing the swear filter is a no-no, and no one should be able to get away with it.

On private boards (i.e. the group boards) then I guess you guys can implement whatever rule about that you like. Do it on MY boards and you're gonna get slapped down. >D

[TheHolo.Net]

The circumvention rule for things such as ***** ***** a$$ and stuff has been added to the FAQ.

[Sanis Prent]

what about shltake mushrooms? I know I've tried posting recipes before, and circumvented the filter because thats a real word.

[Nupraptor]

You should be able to say "shitake". It should be set to only censor the exact word, I believe. This should avoid the "cockpit" problem we had back on ezboard.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

UGh hated the cockpit problem...so glad that isn't an issue here.

[Sanis Prent]

Reminds me of austin powers 3 lol

[DarthHERA]

Im not sure if I should post here as Im only a Mod of my own little SFF world, but the problem as I see it comes from the fact that SWFans has always been run "FOR THE COMMUNITY." Other boards are run for their OWN space.

What I mean is - its easier to bring the hammer down at GJO or say ShadowFaene casue - heck thats our own places and what we say goes. But SWFans has always been considered "everymans" place. That is why everyone gets to vote in new mods, or gets to discuss new rules or implementations such as the 'welcome wagon" idea, for example. Therefore, the Staff are more hesitant to be stricter because they feel they are serving the posting community, and just cant kind of overlord.

This is what has to be defined.

Do the Staff serve according to the people and the myriads of varying opinions.

OR

Do they serve the SWFans board and make decions that are BEST for the board.


This would make the whole "do we ban, do we close" quandries much more cut and dried.

I dont think you can do it both ways and not constantly have the headaches and back-and-forth threads that seem to go on. I think if you keep it as "serve the community" you just have to accept there will be the neverending "do we, dont we's"

May I just say, I also think part of the charm of SWFans is the fact that ppl feel they get to have a say. But other forums are successful without this being a major factor.





ps) delete this if my first sentence is a fact and I have no place here. thanks.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

*huggles Hera* you belong here!

[Sanis Prent]

Yes you belong :mneh