Issue of Plagiarism

[Sanis Prent]

I'm not too sure on what the rules for plagiarism and taking intellectual property are here. I know there's a bit of idea stealage that goes on, but most if not all make changes to the story.

That in mind, take a look at this (http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23927>this</a>,). Its verbatim.

Any input on this would be appreciated.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Well...

I've ripped a paragraph or two from places to put into posts and modeled attitudes on other things, but entire post that is word for word? That is a breach of copyright. What we mainly do is fair use and we all do it. Going word for word unfortunatly however is a breach of law. Legally, the admins would have to delete that post if the copyright holder objected

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I would think that this needs to be stopped and that poster should have his post removed from the boards, with a PM explaining why.

I wouldn't want someone doing a search for Ninjai to find his post and then getting US sued for plagiarism.

If someone was ripping off my original work, I would be pissed. That poster needs to be told NO and get his hand hit with a ruler.

[Sanis Prent]

Ok, well should we get more input, or start drawing straws as to who should PM the guy?

[Admiral Lebron]

That is fairly blunt. Make the forum PM him.

[Levi Argon]

I agree completely. Not only is it illegal but to completely reproduce anothers creative work as your own is distasteful and I think it will be neccessary to raise this issue with the rest of the community. We can't have people breaching copyright law on SWForums as it puts the whole lot of us and our roleplaying haven in jeopardy.

A PM and a deletion of the post is definatelt in order, shortly followed by an announcement regarding copyright and related issues. Another interesting thought, if I were to find "Gav Mortis" being used in some sort of comic strip online or something of that ilk and the character was a complete duplicate of my own, what rights do I have when it comes to my own works here. I have noticed the following copyright statement in the past:

"Any and all writings contained at the SWFans.Net Forums are copyrighted to their respective authors. Please contact the involved parties if you are interested in reproducing any writing(s) on this site."

How much of a guarantee do we, the roleplayers have that our work is protected under copyright law? Or is that statement more of a deterant to would-be copyright-breachers?

[Marcus Telcontar]

Basically, a lot. If you can prove you published first, it's yours. Unique concepts and story in Dark Fury is 100% mine, it's fair use to extend the SW universe in your own fan fic. As your also not for profit, you get leniency. HOWEVER, someone ripping from you is frowned on.

What we do is a derivative work. The words and characters are ours, however the SW setting is not.

Copyright is an implied law - only if you do not defend it, does it lapse. That is why Lucas defends the copyrights of Star Wars fiercely - you dont defend, they lapse and become Public Domain. Now under law, the owner of SWForums.net (Nup) could claim copyright over our works as this is the point of publication. However, he has waived that and declared all work is owned, where appropriate back to the original author. Thence, Mortis is yours to defend as you will

[Sanis Prent]

Yikes...I need to get the ol legalese working on this. Very good questions all around.

[Levi Argon]

But don't professional/best-selling authors have to pay for copyright cover? A bit like we have to pay National Security and insurance?

[Marcus Telcontar]

But don't professional/best-selling authors have to pay for copyright cover? A bit like we have to pay National Security and insurance

No. Copyright is an implied law. When you write first, it's yours unless you dont defend. You dont have to put the C symbol even.

(Leanred too bloody much on copyright law when I was Editor of a magazine)

Copyright can be passed on and sold, or you can make conditions to it. But remember, you have to a) be able to prove first instance and b) that you defended yuour copyright as soon as you knew the breach occured

[Lilaena De'Ville]

We're technically not published writers here, but that isn't the point. This guy ripped from Ninjai, and we need to stop him/her. I haven't checked yet who it is.

[Marcus Telcontar]

We're technically not published writers

Not correct. You post a unique work, your a published writer.

[Levi Argon]

I feel safe now. Thanks for that, Marcus. I haven't read up on copyright law yet. :)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

*steals Gav's name and writes a book about him* >D

Yet, its even more interesting WHO Ninjai is.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Who?

Edit : Guess is Gue?

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
Yet, its even more interesting WHO Ninjai is. And no big surprise really. :x

[Admiral Lebron]

Should we notify the nice people at Ninjai about this? It's theirs to defend I s'pose.

[Levi Argon]

Oh Lord no! SWForums would then be a focal point for an investigation into breaching of copyright which could result in us losing our community. Let's solve this problem internally.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Cancel question, I went looking. Geez.

[Sanis Prent]

:x blarg I should have known it would be Gue

[Admiral Lebron]

Just ban him now.

[Levi Argon]

If it is Gue then he really must be a hybrid of that old guy from the Simpsons who is always in car crashes and the like, the guy from "Hey Arnold!" who is always falling down open manholes and whatnot and Kenny from South Park. How does he manage to attract so much trouble!?

[Lilaena De'Ville]

*hovers over the button*

Can't without an explaination. We aren't tyrannical leaders here, no matter how much people like to paint the Staff as such.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

:lol Gav!

[Admiral Lebron]

Copyright infringment/Plagarism.
Collective offenses.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Lets begin writing one.

Who's got enough disk capacity to make note of all the reasons?

[Levi Argon]

It has to get to the point when one must ask: "Can a grown man not realise he is attracting so much negative attention? That he is acting the goat and really getting on my tits!?"

For the love of God, why is it always him? Without fail?

[TheHolo.Net]

:lol

[Morgan Evanar]

Seriously, Gue has had at least two warnings recently. Just ban him already.

[Admiral Lebron]

Are we sure its gue?

[TheHolo.Net]

Technically there is nothing in the FAQ about plagarism, ......but.....come on its just common frelling sense for writing, something pounded into kid's brains in school as something not to do under any circumstance.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I think Gav needs to be warned not to watch Hey Arnold anymore... o_O

And...Gue makes me tired...its hard to keep up with his misadventures..

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Admiral Lebron
Are we sure its gue? Definatley, he reg'd it with his standard email address.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Lebron, there is an email and IP match..no doubt at all.

[Admiral Lebron]

Okay. Just didn't want to ban him for no reason and have to hear him bicker. Ban away.

[Admiral Lebron]

So are we going to ban him? If so can I do it?

[Marcus Telcontar]

Get in line buddy, I'm banning him first

[Levi Argon]

Gue is becoming a hazard to this community. His misadventures, as have been called, are plentiful and frequent and he never is at a loss to find something new to do to cause trouble for the staff here. For a man his age I would think he has a fair idea of what exactly he is doing. I think he needs a warning and by that I mean a: "You are a liability to this community, continue as you are doing, upset the administration one more time and you are gone for good." That kind of warning. No sugar-coating, tell him straight that we are fed up of his antics and running around after him like some sort of child. Tell him how close he is to never posting here again. I say don't ban him now as no matter how utterly stupid this "Ninjai" fiasco is, we can't ban him on the grounds of plagiarism and breaching of copyright when rules about such acts are not in our rules or FAQ.

If there wasn't a law against murder, then one could kill and be completely untouchable by the law. In this instance, we aren't covered with regards to plagiarism but let it be the only time and lets get some rules and guidelines up there against such things. That way we can ban for the offense in the future.

[Admiral Lebron]

:(

Can I tell him then?

[Morgan Evanar]

Enough warnings. Please, just ban the moron.

[Marcus Telcontar]

He's been warned like that before Gav. Personally, he has worn out his welcome fully. I would vote for banning

[Levi Argon]

See my post above now updated. For this offense, the staff here have nothing to support themselves with for a banning, no rules are up there about copyright and plagiarism. No matter how much common sense it may be, it is still not featured in our rules and guidelines and as such a member of the community, even Gue, can't be banned for the offense.

[Admiral Lebron]

Most people I'm sure wouldn't disagree he was banned unjust for plagarism. There are like two or three fanatics though..

[Lilaena De'Ville]

*cough* The Shrine *cough*

I agree with Gav, and think that an amendment to our rules is in order. Plagiarism is a no no.

[Morgan Evanar]

Plagarism breaks most international laws. Including the one's of the nation which Gue resides in. It doesn't need to be in the goddamn rules.

[Marcus Telcontar]

I'd agree there. It's illegal.

Besides, this guy just will not stop. He's Itala all over again, he just never fugging quits. Nor takes hints. Or listens. He should have been banned some time ago. We do NOT need this latest incident as justification, hell, in the days of the Ezboard Fans, he was a bane of Admin life. Maybe this is not specifically in the rules, but others have been given a send off for less. It's long been past the time he should have been told to leave.

[Sanis Prent]

I agree. Legal rules > Swfans rules, and even without it being in our FAQ, there is an implied adherence to higher law.

I say to can him now.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I say we hold a Lottery every year...and the winner gets banned. >D *rigs it so Gue wins*

[TheHolo.Net]

Just the fact that the illegality of this issue is enough to cause our community great hardships and possibly closure, I am inclined to agree that this is a very serious offense that should probably warrant a banning considering how many limits he has pushed here before.

But ultimately the decision to do so is up to the staff of this community as a whole not just me and my opinions.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

:thumbdown

[Levi Argon]

In this cyberworld community, I, as well as the majority of posters here, have been on the receiving end of verbal abuse at one point or another and some of that abuse goes very personal in a number of instances. On the street, in real life, that person could be reported to the police and arrested for the actions and abuse. Many have gone unbanned for those offenses.

It has been said many times before, this internet community is very unlike real life and as such we should make it our duty as responsible members to ensure that the rules imposed here cover all areas and are adhered to but in this case the rules did not exist.

Another thought I have had is that Gue is not doing this for profit or any real personal gain, at least not from what evidence I have seen, so apart from that which he has done is unoriginal and in fact a blatant copy, he is not using it for personal gain but merely for recreational purposes.

If we are to condemn for this, then what about websites that have movie scripts, or even at SWForums, when we post song lyrics or use song titles for roleplays. It's all good and well shouting "Plagiarism" and "Ban him" but these things need to be defined. If we ban him for this then the staff will have to be very careful on what they call plagiarism in the future lest they, themselves be judged.

[Marcus Telcontar]

But ultimately the decision to do so is up to the staff of this community as a whole not just me and my opinions


I move that there be a vote to dismiss Gue from the comminuty.

Nor for the plagerism issue, but for thre fact he has, over a great period of time been abusive, broken SWFans posting rules, been warned and harassing of other posters. I would also note as before, others were marched for less. This is not unique incident, he has always systematically flaunted and broken the rules. Now I would agree that Gav has a point, but the fact is, he has continually gone so far beyond what is acceptible, he should already be gone.

[Morgan Evanar]

If we are to condemn for this, then what about websites that have movie scripts, or even at SWForums, when we post song lyrics or use song titles for roleplays. It's all good and well shouting "Plagiarism" and "Ban him" but these things need to be defined. If we ban him for this then the staff will have to be very careful on what they call plagiarism in the future lest they, themselves be judged.

Irellevant. We give credit to the authors when we post the lyrics. They are not passed off as our own.

Gue is passing this off as his own work.

[Levi Argon]

We cannot ban him for this offense. The internet is contraversial in itself with regards to the fudging of copyright rules. How can we ban someone for an offense which we, in our own community have not established our own rules and perameters. Who is to say that "Sick Cycle Carousel" or "Electrical Storm" are infringements of copyright law. We first, as a community must establish these perameters and look to ourselves first before acting holier-than-thou. Yes, Gue is a pain in the backside and he should've been banned long ago but we simply cannot ban him on this and he hasn't used this Ninjai character for profitable gain. Far too many factors play into this than to decide with a simple thumbs-up or thumbs-down.

[Sanis Prent]

Well...when other things of such a complete and verbatim nature have been used here, there has been at least mention to its source, and not a claim of ownership

[Marcus Telcontar]

We give credit to the authors when we post the lyrics. They are not passed off as our own

I would agree there - when I post lyrics, they are credited. Passing off work as your own is a different matter. Also, a lot of song writers encourage lyrics being posted - it helps for their work to be advertised. The differentiation is that the author is credited and duly noted and no claim is made to a unique work. While in law it is hazy at times, it is clearly not for profit and it is considered fair use.

[Levi Argon]

Originally posted by Morgan Evanar
Irellevant. We give credit to the authors when we post the lyrics. They are not passed off as our own.

Gue is passing this off as his own work.

What about roleplay titles? Not all artists are given credit. I am guilty of using one or two song titles in the past and not giving credit, as are many I can think of right off the bat. After this banning are we going to sift through our archives and condemn others guilty of this offense too? If so I am guilty as charged and Gue has done no more than us except made an entire post of something that is not his. Like I said, to what degree is it excusable? We haven't established that here to protect our own community from it's members breaking the law, so how can we ban someone for it yet? We can't.

Simply because it is Gue does not warrant a banning otherwise we are all guilty of rank hypocrisy.

[Marcus Telcontar]

We cannot ban him for this offense. The internet is contraversial in itself with regards to the fudging of copyright rules. How can we ban someone for an offense which we, in our own community have not established our own rules and perameters. Who is to say that "Sick Cycle Carousel" or "Electrical Storm" are infringements of copyright law. We first, as a community must establish these perameters and look to ourselves first before acting holier-than-thou. Yes, Gue is a pain in the backside and he should've been banned long ago but we simply cannot ban him on this and he hasn't used this Ninjai character for profitable gain. Far too many factors play into this than to decide with a simple thumbs-up or thumbs-down.

Then dont ban him on this subject. All of us would agree that he should have been gone a long time ago - while this is one of his smaller offenses - and I might add, it would probably only gotten a small tap on the shoulder and a naughty naughty finger waggling if it was anyone else - it is part of the evidence of continued and sytematic contravening of the values and rules of the forum.

Look, quite blunty SWFans is bloody lenient on people. A t a lot of other forums Gue would have been marched on the first or second offence. Posters dont realise at times how easy going the staff are and how they pass up stuff that could be warnable or even bannable. We are not talking about isolated incidents either. He should have been dismissed in my time as an Admin. Now, thats a year ago and he has hardly changed. I believe in warnings and letting people have chances, but really, how many more do we need to decide?

[Morgan Evanar]

So the Cranberries infringe upon another band for using the song title "Zombie" which has surely been used by other bands as a song title.

Perfect exaple: Both Zebrahead and Nonpoint have a song called "Mindtrip".

AFAIK Zebrahead's version of a different song came out first. They didn't sue Nonpoint. Your arguement for this point isn't holding water against numerous real world examples.

[Sanis Prent]

Thats a good point to bring up...and its the recurring nature of these issues that has to be looked at. Is this alone worth banning? No, not by a long shot. If this were a first offense by someone, it would be wrapped up with a PM and serious talk...but Gue's shown precedence as to ignoring all such things.

[Levi Argon]

Yes, but the real world has clearly defined perameters of what is acceptable and what is not. This is not the real world. We have to establish a set of rules which comply with international law but also can apply to our own online community. I don't think there are copyright laws for roleplaying and online roleplaying communities; see what I mean by specifics? We have to have our rules clearly defined. We are responsible for ensuring international copyright laws are not infringed by establishing rules and laws which can apply to an online roleplaying community. Essentially, we have to make sure SWForums is "covered" and currently, it is not, at least from this new problem.

If we ban Gue for this then we will have to systematically go through every member of this community, check for copyright infringement and punish them appropriatly. Sure, Gue's example of plagiarism is definately the most blatant but we haven't objected to minor copyright infringements in the past so how can we suddenly stand up and condemn?

As has been said, Gue could only be banned today on the basis of previous offenses - not including this one today, lest we all are punished as I have said - but the staff cannot suddenly stand up whatever amount of time it has been since the last Gue ordeal and suddenly ban him out of the blue. There would be uproar.

Copyright and plagiarism at SWForums needs to be given clearly defined perameters, as I have said numerous times, before we begin banning anyone. There is both hypocrisy and bias in the banning of Gue on these grounds and evidence of a major flaw in the staff here, we are all humans and of course the escapades of Gue have taken their toll but lets not lose our cool and lower our standards now. We are only looking for an excuse to ban him now, a banning he has deserved but not on these grounds today.

[Levi Argon]

but Gue's shown precedence as to ignoring all such things.

Ignoring what? SWForums has no rules against plagiarism. He ignored nothing today.

I think it is clear we really need to re-evaluate the rules here and make sure everything is covered for the future.

[Sanis Prent]

Then you are at least willing to acknowledge the cumulative effect of his transgressions, and that this latest fiasco, however major or minor, adds to the sum of it all, and that Gue should be banned.

[Levi Argon]

Originally posted by Sanis Prent
Then you are at least willing to acknowledge the cumulative effect of his transgressions, and that this latest fiasco, however major or minor, adds to the sum of it all, and that Gue should be banned.

No, because we cannot call it a recognised offense that goes against the rules of SWForums because there are currently no rules about it established for this community.

Do we even have a rule that states: "Appreciation of international law should be recognised and adhered to, the failure to do so thereof would result in a banning."

If we have something along those lines that refers to the adherance of international law, then we can call this a recognised offense against SWForums.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I am under the disctinct impression he has already been banned. Why is this, as it is still being discussed?!

Warlord Gue: could u pass on a note to the staff for me?
HollieBelle2: sure
HollieBelle2: wait I AM the staff ;-)
HollieBelle2: whats teh note?
Warlord Gue: 2 things
HollieBelle2: ok
Warlord Gue: Its not nice to share info about characters that only staff members have access to to non staff members
Warlord Gue: and a staff issuied warning before banning is a nice thing to do
HollieBelle2: thanks I'll pass that on
HollieBelle2: is there more? I dont' want to miss any
Warlord Gue: and I guess Ill see ya around then, maybe Ill come back when im unbanned


I have edited out this middle section


HollieBelle2: I'm nto going to get into a childish "have to/have not" arguement with you
HollieBelle2: anything else you wish for me to pass on?
Warlord Gue: yeah, I hope they can stop being homophobic
Warlord Gue: good bye
HollieBelle2: oh good grief, no one cares if you like guys
Warlord Gue: I dont anymore
HollieBelle2: so whats your point?
HollieBelle2: anyway ok passing it on. Bye!
Warlord Gue: but none of this biased against me stuff started until that got out
HollieBelle2: bull

and then I blocked him, due to hightened emotional stress.

[TheHolo.Net]

A moderator has banned him in the incorrect fashion. :x

If you want to do a group specific banning please use access masks.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

start of convo : Warlord Gue (8:29:47 PM): could u pass on a note to the staff for me?

[Morgan Evanar]

Mark and I used access masks. ??

[Lilaena De'Ville]

:x

[Levi Argon]

Did you ask permission to post that?

[Marcus Telcontar]

What you post IS in the Real World. Basically, if it were anyone else other than Gue, we could discuss this issue and issue a decree.

Or whatever.

Please note, I have not stated to ban Gue alone on these grounds. This is only the last of a very, very long line of abuses of SWFans he has committed.

I would point out SWFans has a policy about posting links to pirate material, or posting pirate material. Posts have in the past been deleted for posting copyright material as well. I would point out there was a thread not long ago where such references were deleted. I would also point out that in the past, I have warned Grand Admiral Thrawn about blatant Plagerism of another poster. Condemning plagerisn and piracy is something that SWFans has taken a stand on in the past. I even think Gue was guilty of such a thing as well and warned.... correct me other mods, but I think it was he posted pirated info?

[Lilaena De'Ville]

HollieBelle2: anything else you wish for me to pass on?

I took his entering into a convo with me, in which I said the above, and which he WANTED me to pass on stuff to mean I could post the entire thing.

And yes, Can I strangle Lebron? :D *smiles sweetly*

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Morgan Evanar
Mark and I used access masks. ?? My logs don't tell me who did it, but I am showing over 20 names of Gue's as "Banned by Moderators"

[Marcus Telcontar]

A moderator has banned him in the incorrect fashion.

Ohhhhh -DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR-

-DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR-

-DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR-

-DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR-

My apologies, it was me who pushed the wrong buttons. -DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR-. -DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR-. I didnt think I had the power to ban globally.

Sorry :x

[Levi Argon]

I'm off to bed. I'm really dissappointed by the way this situation has been/is being dealt with. :\

[TheHolo.Net]

Have a read of my crash course topic again please, it explains how to properly ban someone from a group forum, and it also explains that mods do have the power to ban boardwide via name and IP.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Levi Argon
I'm off to bed. I'm really dissappointed by the way this situation has been/is being dealt with. :\ No boardwide banning was approved and thus his access to the board as a whole has been restored due to the accident.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

if the posting of that convo is evil, then please, edit it out. I have no idea what is up or down right now... *head spins*

[Marcus Telcontar]

* Bows head *

I am a right turkey. I now wear an avatar of shame for a day


Have a read of my crash course topic again please, it explains how to properly ban someone from a group forum, and it also explains that mods do have the power to ban boardwide via name and IP.

I was under the impression I could only touch GJO stuff. :/

[Sanis Prent]

I agree...we really need more input before we can make a final decision on this.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Sanis Prent
I agree...we really need more input before we can make a final decision on this. I agree and have cast no official vote for banning to take place as of yet. I was reading the discussion and forming opinions, which I still am at this point. My previous post with an opinion to ban was not a final decision or a vote to ban, just my opinion at the time, which may or may not change.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Marcus Q'Dunn
* Bows head *

I am a right turkey. I now wear an avatar of shame for a day



I was under the impression I could only touch GJO stuff. :/ Please be sure to read my crash course topic located in the GJo admin forum which explains the mod functions well I believe.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Yes it does. Pity I have a memory as leaky as a Netscpe browser

[Sanis Prent]

If we don't ban him, I say we at least change his avatar to a picture of poo or something. If he needs a reminder that he's on thin ice, I think having to look at a turd every time he posts would do the trick, maybe?

[Marcus Telcontar]

:: Keyboards snorted onto count taday = 3 ::

[Taylor Millard]

No I don't think that's a good thing.

The problem is...Gue wants to be banned. He wants to have his post count taken away...he wants to have something happen to him so he can cry about.

The same goes for the avatar.

The only thing we should do is keep the Ninjai thread away and go from there.

If we think we need to set up rules for plagarism then let's do it. But since we do not have any rules on them, we cannot rightfully ban Gue this time.

But if he does continue to do stuff like this, then we should ban him.

IF that makes sense.

[Figrin D'an]

Plagerism is a pretty touchy subject. The line between "artistic license" and "blatant copyright infringement" is quite blury... even more so in the realm of the Internet.


That being said... from my view, the post in question clearly was plagerism. Considering that most of the text was directly copied from a website, the character name was identical, and there was no credit given to the author or publisher of the original work, those items combined make the offense rather obvious.

People on this board borrow stuff from other sources. Everyone has done it, and most still do. The very premise of the RP section of the board walks the razors edge of copyright infringement, in the strictest sense of the term. Is it plagerism? Well, to each his own, but I personally wouldn't call it that. The fact that Uncle George lets us all play in his really big backyard would seem to indicate that it we are guilty of nothing more than having fan obsession and overactive imaginations. Other sources have been "perused" for ideas as well... Tolkien, DragonBall Z, Terry Pratchett, Issac Asimov, Star Trek, various popular films... the list is enourmous. Is that plagerism? Again, to each his own, but I would say no. Ultimately, its about context. Borrowing a name, a plot point, a character trait or two... that falls under artistic license, IMO. This example is completely cliche by now, but as so many of us know, Lucas himself borrowed concepts from Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, and numerous other serials, as well as some concepts from the mythological interpretations Joseph Campbell. Plagerism? I wouldn't say so...

Back to the case at hand.., The compelling factor here, IMO, is the number of "borrowed" ideas, from a single source, contained in a single post. So many that, it is in essence, a carbon copy of a previously published work. The frequency and concentration of the "borrowed" traits seems to constitute plagerism... that is, in effect, the very definition of plagerism.


As for punishment... Gue has been a problem for some time. He's been warned on multiple occasions about inappropriate behavior. On most other boards, he probably would have been banned by now. His "rap sheet" continues to grow, and he shows little sign of behavioral change. I'd be a bit concerned about banning him, though. He has a knack for stirring up trouble, then playing innocent, crying that the staff has personal grudges against him, and getting support from some board members, as ill-informed as they may be. Banning him, effective immediately, might serve to cause more headaches than it will solve at the moment.

The staff might want to consider given him an ultimatum. Clearly state that the latest "plagerism" incident has placed him on "board probation", or whatever you wish to call it. Make it clear that he has no more room for error. Any further violations of board policy, no matter how minor, will result in immediate banning from the entire SWFans network of boards. No questions asked.

For future reference, perhaps the board policy FAQ could be appended to include information on following international copyright law and incidents of plagerism. I know... 90% of the people on the board should know better, but it would be a prudent and safe measure for the board to put it into writing. Guilt of plagerism is subjective at best, so just include a clause stating that accusations of plagerism will be investigated by the staff, and final rulings on said accusations will be made by a concensus vote of the board mods and admins.


May my ramblings be of some use...

[Taylor Millard]

If we do ban him, I suggest we do NOT let him back.

You know the more I think about this the more I believe he may have done this on purpose so he could get banned or have something happen to him.

So he could complain.

Lord knows he's all ready told people he got banned. I've had two people say they've been told by him about the banning.

Who wants to draft a letter telling him he's on thin ice?

[Nupraptor]

Posters dont realise at times how easy going the staff are and how they pass up stuff that could be warnable or even bannableI'm very much inclined to agree. The very fact that this issue is in debate strengthens the point, I think. At any other board - any other one at all - he would have been banned, and not a single person would have objected. But.... that's not how things are done here.
Originally posted by Taylor Millard The problem is...Gue wants to be banned. He wants to have his post count taken away...he wants to have something happen to him so he can cry about.That's the impression I've gotten. Any time there's an inkling of something happening, he tells as many people as he can that he's been banned.

I know that this would, for a fact, cause too many headaches if we were to ban him now. Aside from arguments about hypocrisy, people would say that we're overreacting: "After all, he just posted a thread", I'm sure they'd say.

[Taylor Millard]

You know if we keep moving the threads Gue does as spam or rudeness or what not eventually people will be convinced by the evidence.

Gue can prattle all he wants.

I say we wait and see what happens. Gue continues this, then we save it and then ban him and present the evidence and say, "Look here's why we did this."

More people will accept that, than if we just ban him now.

[Master Yoghurt]

There is enough evidence to have Gue banned long time ago, however this should be handled professionally.

I would agree to Figrin's suggested approach. Give him a strict warning, saying that based on the past offences to board policy, no more margin for error will be tolerated. Any future violations of board policy, will result in immediate banning from the entire SWFans network of boards.

[Taylor Millard]

I agree...Should we have a mod write the letter or one of the admins?

[Ryla Relvinian]

*finishes reading this thread...* Egads.

Know what? I'm all for banning the creep. Yes, of course, we need to take proper courses of action, and handle this just like it were any other poster, but he needs to go, and soon. The longer he stays around, the more time he has to string up a little pitty party. I don't know how old he is but it sure looks incredibly immature to spam, plagarize, insult the staff, and then claim that we are picking on him. He can go ahead and think that as long as he wants... away from here.

And for a letter, I vote for a communal writing and being sent from the highest of the high... so there can be no claims of so-and-so doing such-and-such. This must be professional, curt, and conscise... a real CYA (that's 'cover your... um.. booty) just in case others try to pull the same shenanigans. I'm just sick of his blatant "victimology" mentality. Listen, bud, nobody made you copy that text, nobody made you have spam postings... it's all you.

[Taylor Millard]

btw did anyone tell Gue he was unbanned?

[TheHolo.Net]

LD said she was going to ask Charley to do it, not sure if it happened.

[Levi Argon]

Back to the case at hand.., The compelling factor here, IMO, is the number of "borrowed" ideas, from a single source, contained in a single post. So many that, it is in essence, a carbon copy of a previously published work. The frequency and concentration of the "borrowed" traits seems to constitute plagerism... that is, in effect, the very definition of plagerism.

I agree with more or less everything you've said but my point in this instance is that SWForums has no recognised rules that define what is acceptable and what is an offense when it comes to plagiarism. That being said, I agree with Ryla and that links in with what Taylor said; Gue needs to go soon and for good but if we are going to ban him it has to be for something concrete and against the SWForums rules. He can rally pity but if the decision to ban him is based on something not as contraversial as plagiarism then he was not a leg to stand on and cannot rally much if any sympathy.

Finally, my dissatisfaction with how this issue was being dealt with last night came about because the moment the words "Gue" and "ban" were up there, most of you guys were almost having a race to see who could ban the guy first. It was moderator bias, I think that part was unquestionable, having said that I am not suprised and I daresay Gue should just receive his just-desserts and get it over with.

Other things like LD posting the convo; she didn't exactly say: "Mind if I show this conversation to everyone in the Group Moderators forum?"

Her question near the start: "Is there more? I don't want to miss any." That can hardly be tied to the aforementioned question. I mean that conversation contained details about Gue's sexuality and insecurity. There is "Roleplaying Etiquette", now I think it is time for "Staff Etiquette". Gue found out about the banning before he was meant to and before it had been decided on, he had been banned by a moderator acting hastey and thus banning him from the rest of SWFans, he had a private conversation of his posted without consent, there is evidence of moderator bias here and the grounds upon which he was to be banned were flawed and hypocritical.

[Morgan Evanar]

Gue found out about the banning before he was meant to and before it had been decided on, he had been banned by a moderator acting hastey and thus banning him from the rest of SWFans, he had a private conversation of his posted without consent, there is evidence of moderator bias here and the grounds upon which he was to be banned were flawed and hypocritical.

Incorrect. Said moderator hit the wrong button. Big difference from acting hasty, Moral Crusader. Also, you have yet to prove this "hipocracy" you scream out about so steadily. No one else on this board has used a copyrighted work without crediting an author.

Furthermore: Moderator bias? Not really. The staff has been more than lienient, if anything, too lienient.

I think you miss the big picture here in your narrow focus. Behavoir such as this, which can result in financial loss, loss of this message board, doesn't need to be covered by the rules when its covered by law. INTERNATIONAL LAW. This is on the list of blatantly obvious DONT DO IT.

Rule one when you work in America, and I suspect this is also true elsewhere: You cover your -DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR-. If we don't cover our -DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR-, we can loose everything. That means the board, Levi. I don't screw around when I can loose something I just dropped 100 dollars into. I care a lot about this place, and I'm not going to let anyone's absurd moral crusade jepordise it.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Levi/Gav/whoever:

I do not believe that I incorrectly posted that conversation. I have also now edited out the middle part, where it was not specifically stated that he wanted me to pass it on.

It was a discussion relevant to this situation, and the incorrect banning that took place put me in a rough spot. I assumed that the banning was indeed correct, and that I had missed something. I didn't want to appear foolish. My bad. I have only been a moderator for a week or so now, and if you think that my offense is offensive enough, then you can have this job, mmkay?

If anyone else believes I posted that incorrectly, then they should have also spoken up.




I think its important to remember that we were focusing on this plagriarism issue before I went and found out who the poster's real identity was. Gue thinks we've singled him out, when in fact, the post drew attention due to the flagrant copying of another source. When it was found that it was him, then it is the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.

People expect us to be nicer than is possible.

And Lebron, DO NOT EVER talk about an issue with a poster that is posted in here. I don't know what you said to Gue but he was riled, and the "staff" (not the group mods) takes the brunt of it. I am under the impression that group mods can also run IP checks (Although as a group mod, I never tried)...so Gue's complaint that the Staff gave out private information to a non-Staff (Lebron who is a group mod) is not valid. Is that correct?

[Sanis Prent]

I think in order to weigh the "hipocrisy" here, we'd have to find a similar precedent of allowing such a blatant act of stealage to take place. Which, to my knowledge, hasn't occurred. Nodding homage to a song lyric or title is completely different from posting someone else's content in such a verbatim fashion, without even mentioning that it was someone else's work. If he'd mentioned where he got it from, or maybe changed the content around...I would be fine with that. But there is a line crossed in the scope of what he's done. There may not be precedent, and we may not outline it in the FAQ, but I think that seeing as it breaks rules in a higher court, there's plenty of justification to take action...which was done by deleting the thread in question. However...we can't in our right minds smile and pretend nothing happened. Gue knows he's breaking rules...he knows he's stirring the pot. He wants to be the martyr, and we gotta play this carefully. I think putting him on the spot, and calling the one strike and you're out (the same deal we gave Itala) is long overdue. If he so much as farts in church, he's outta here for good.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Also, Gav, the specific part about his sexuality was expressed by him that he wanted that shared. *shrug* I don't personally give a rats left behind what gender he prefers. It has nothing to do with the subject. We have several "alternative lifestyles" posting at swfans, and they don't cause trouble.

It is just another example of Gue trying to become a martyr. And if you want to crucify me as well, then thats your perrogative. no, I can't spell.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Levi Argon
I agree with more or less everything you've said but my point in this instance is that SWForums has no recognised rules that define what is acceptable and what is an offense when it comes to plagiarism. That being said, I agree with Ryla and that links in with what Taylor said; Gue needs to go soon and for good but if we are going to ban him it has to be for something concrete and against the SWForums rules. He can rally pity but if the decision to ban him is based on something not as contraversial as plagiarism then he was not a leg to stand on and cannot rally much if any sympathy.


I understand your point, but to make a clear-cut definition of plagerism as applied to this board is virtually impossible. If any rule is be included in the FAQ, it has to be something along the lines of "Posters must follow the conventions respecting international copyright law. Any cases of plagerism will be investigated, with the final ruling on said cases coming from a consensus vote of the board staff." It has to be very general and vague, allowing for it to be explored on a case-by-case basis. If you want to be strict about it, everyone here has plagerized at some point, and the entire board should be shut down. We can't legislate specifics on this. We can only enforce existing law. The very essence of defining plagerism is riddled with hypocracies. It's unavoidable. One just has to decide which is less hypocritical: Punishing someone for an extreme case of plagerism when we are all guilty of it in some form, or not punishing the offending party when we are supposed to be upholding certain laws that protect us from liability, and potentially put the future of the community at risk.


As I said... don't ban Gue now. Give him an ultimatum: One more incident of rule-breaking, no matter how minor, and he's gone for good. Make it clear that blatant plagerism will not be tolerated, and make it clear why. When Gue screws up again, there then will be no debate and no legitimate argument against his banning.

[TheHolo.Net]

I am inclined to agree that Gue should not be banned for “this incident”, but also must say that when he asked to be unbanned previously, I did give him an ultimatum, follow the rules or you are gone. I still have the email where he said he would comply, but he has continued to walk the edge on numerous occasions with many a warning issued when it should have just been a clear cut situation of bang you’re out of here.

The reasoning behind my initial opinion of wanting him banned has much to do with what I just said. He has walked the proverbial razor’s edge far to often and makes my job difficult, which is something that should not have to be put up with time and time again. Its frustrating that nearly every week, we have one issue or another with him and we have to discuss what to do. I think Ryla had a good thought when she said that an ultimatum should be written by no single person, but done so on a consensus type basis, with it being prepared here by everyone who wishes to take part.

As for Figrin’s idea of an addition to the FAQ, I rather like the what he defined as a possible copyright clause in our FAQ.

Originally posted by Figrin D'an
"Posters must follow the conventions respecting international copyright law. Any cases of plagerism will be investigated, with the final ruling on said cases coming from a consensus vote of the board staff."

[Taylor Millard]

Sounds good to me.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Add the clause, and let Gue know that no more warnings will be issued. <-my vote

[ReaperFett]

I was sure copyright had to be paid for. Like the guy who invented the Lightbulb, Elijah Grey I believe.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
I was sure copyright had to be paid for. Like the guy who invented the Lightbulb, Elijah Grey I believe. Mark Was correct regarding copyright being automatic. The deciding factor is in being able to prove without doubt who created it first.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

You have to pay for a patent, but that's different.

[Morgan Evanar]

You already issued an ultimatium. To leave him alone further proves the administration here can be walked on.

[Levi Argon]

As I said... don't ban Gue now. Give him an ultimatum: One more incident of rule-breaking, no matter how minor, and he's gone for good. Make it clear that blatant plagerism will not be tolerated, and make it clear why. When Gue screws up again, there then will be no debate and no legitimate argument against his banning.

I agree completely and as for the clause, it's perfect and works.

[ReaperFett]

So basically, people are saying ban him for taking a name from another site?


So, who'll be first to point out noone ever banned the UPS Delivery Guy? And is not one of the Mods the one who had General Ceel and Ltala?

[Levi Argon]

No, the entire content of his thread is basically a word for word transcript form another website.

[TheHolo.Net]

It is not just about a name, it is about a verbatim story he ripped associated with the name.

[ReaperFett]

Oooh, I see. I didnt really check the other website that well.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

;) Ltala isn't anyone else's name. And that was stopped, as well, was it not? Anyway I don't really remember.

[TheHolo.Net]

Yes it was.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I figured, as no one posts with that nick. anymore. Specific Ceel is the name that sticks out in my mind at the moment, but that just cracks me up, and it wasn't used in a harmful way towards the General Ceel poster/former poster. IIRC

[Master Yoghurt]

Its frustrating that nearly every week, we have one issue or another with him and we have to discuss what to do.

I would agree on that. It gets rather tiresome, and it is a waste of our time as well as being a nuisance for the board in general :\

[imported_Eve]

Well - I'm glad that this staff choses to condone the ripping of my work, and all people's work for that matter. Why even post with your own name, if its a free-for-all? I mean, you can't get banned for it, can ya?

The staff fails, IMO, to act because they're afraid of what people will think. We let things get this far with Gue. Our negligence in acting allowed this issue to even occur here. SWForums would bear responsibility if the original owner of the content sued because Gue had a history of breaking the rules, and we condoned it. By doing this, we neglect the other members of this community, BIG TIME. We leave them vulnerable. How can we justify banning anyone in the future now? We let Gue get away with it.

What does it take? What do I have to do, before someone can't justify it with some PC BS?

Do you agree that we don't condone anything illegal? I hope so! You're arguments here, which justify Gue's actions, wouldn't stand up at all in court.

If you don't take action NOW, it sets a precedent (sp?).

Lili - Hey TOLD you to pass it on, you're clear.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

^_^; thank you for adressing that, Eve, everyone else ignored it.

And I agree. We've been far to lenient. If people *imo the Shrine will be the one who complains* want to RP with Gue, he has characters in almost all of the major SW RPG boards, IIRC.

Its like telling a child "one more time..." and then they do it one more time, and you tell them "One more time, and THIS time I mean it!" He won't change, and he'll continue to play the martyr, because this is obviously how he likes to be.

[Admiral Lebron]

I agree. Time to send him to the corner, metaphorically speaking.

[Marcus Telcontar]

I think if Gue is banned, GJO will have the biggest probelm - a lot of The Shrine are also Jedi. Actually, I think all of them have Jedi characters and have formed a noticable clique inside it with other players as well. Probably about 10 strong. This has been on my mind somewhat, because Soth is within a hairbreath of a GJO banning. As no doubt last night's administrative blunder no doubt shws, we have bitten the bullet and banned Gue from GJO. I think it really gets down to the point that sometimes you just have to act.

And I also read SWFans.net comments about a prior last warning with concern. Clearly, the warning has been issued and you now have the justification to act, even without this incident. He promised to clean up his act and he has clearly not done so. You have alrady issued the last warning, I would ay you are free to act and a further last warning sends the wrong message.

[Ryla Relvinian]

So, the point then becomes not "if" but rather a "why"... meaning, IMO, we need to compile a list of the reasons he is being banned, the offenses as well as the general lack of respect for people who put their time and money into this community. Then comes the "when." I say we add this list to something like this:

"Due to the fact that you have repeatedly broken or bent the rules, insulted the staff and generally contributed to the downfall of society as we know it, you are being banned, hanged by your thumbs and beaten with old hot dogs" or whatever.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Eve
Well - I'm glad that this staff choses to condone the ripping of my work, and all people's work for that matter. Why even post with your own name, if its a free-for-all? I mean, you can't get banned for it, can ya?


No one is condoning plagerism. From the conversation here, it seems pretty clear that everyone agrees that is a major problem that must be addressed. How to address it has been the major sticking point.

Yes, Gue has been given too much leeway, and he has taken advantage of that fact more than once. Should he have been dealt with more harshly some time ago? Probably. But, it's useless to dwell on that now with the benefit of clear hindsight. Just deal with the problem at hand, and amend the FAQ to cover this if future problems should crop up.


People are already getting too worked up about this. Just have a vote, or have the admin make a decision and get it over with. Personally, I think Gue needs to be sent packing. My more political side says to document his wrong doings and give him a zero-tolerance ultimatum. But, I'm also not staff for the board proper, so my opinion means little.

End this, and end it soon.

[Morgan Evanar]

He's already had many ultimatums and never lived up to it.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Morgan Evanar
He's already had many ultimatums and never lived up to it.


Have they been ultimatums, or warnings? And who gave them? A RP mod, or the board admin(s) speaking for the staff? I'm not questioning the legitimacy of what the staff has done, but some hard proof would be beneficial.


Herein lies another issue... documentation. Saying, "Yeah, this guy has been warned like 10 times" is all well and good, but to really make informed decisions on this stuff, the staff needs to have all of the evidence in one place. The mods/admins need to start making copies of questionable/offending posts and placing them here, or archiving them with links so it is easier to keep track of who has done what and with what frequency.

[Navaria Tarkin]

Tough call, sorry for my jumping in late but I am going to have to go along with Fig.

We need to make a decision now. From what I have read, and I have read ALOT O_O, I think the debate is over and a decision to vote is needed. Vote to ban and list all the reasons why or give gue one last chance and tell him why.

[Ryla Relvinian]

I agree, Nav. This whole thing is distasteful and not representitive of the rest of this great community. I feel that y'all (I dunno if I count here... I's just a wee modlette) need to vote and get this thing carried forward.

[TheHolo.Net]

On an issue such as a SWFans.Net RP forum banning, it is traditional for group moderators to vote as well, since it does affect their communities also.

[ReaperFett]

Have they been ultimatums, or warnings?
That does matter I'd think. Ive "slapped the hand" of a poster before, and said dont do that. If they did it again and I banned them, it would be a tad harsh.

[Sanis Prent]

I don't think its that harsh at all. I mean, we tell them not to do something, and they do it...they obviously have a problem dealing with authority here.

[Ryla Relvinian]

I think the distinction is do you think you did anything wrong. I can't honestly believe that we would not take into account someone's honest apology, or look at it as an accident, kind of a "Oh my gosh I am an idiot" thing, which, of course, is not what Gue is doing.

[Evil Hobgoblin]

Simply put, we have dealt with Gue one too many times. The very fact that this debate is extant proves exactly how deep Gue's flagrancy of rule violation goes.

This instance of plagarism IS the last straw. Direct theft of intellectual property is wrong- I do not, under any circumstances directly take ideas from other writers and pass them off as my own work. I borrow lliberally from songs when I write, because they provide me with a great deal of inspiration, but in no way have I ever claimed those songs as my own intellectual property, regardless of their inclusion in any roleplays of mine, and usage is far different from ownership. Had anyone taken something I have written and handed it in for a grade or otherwise attempted to publicly claim ownership of it, I would bury that person in lawsuits and red tape.

There comes a time when the immaturity of a child warrants a spanking. Publicly and privately, Gue has shown himself to be that child, and further toleration of his acts is unnecessary and could be damaging as far as establishment of precedents.

I recall not too long ago that Gue was banned from SWFans at his own request. Back then, we proved his cries of tyranny wrong by reinstating him at his request. This time it is not our conduct that is in question, but his own. Why is he here now if conditions are so bad? However many decent points he may have made over the duration of his stay, they have been far outweighed by the negative consequences of his continued membership.

Gue should immediately and unilaterally be banned, and that is the opinion of someone with no particular grudge against him.

[Figrin D'an]

While that may be true, there is something else to consider...

Gue wants to be banned. He wants the controversy, he wants people rallying to his side, he wants the criticism of the staff that it will bring. The main reason I suggested a detailed ultimatum is simply that, if all of his offenses are clearly cataloged and he is told "One more screw up and you are gone," the next time tries to pull something, there will be little to no debate on the issue. Everyone will know that he has been a plague to the community as it has been documented, that he was clearly warned, and that the staffs of all of the community boards would be in agreement on his removal.

Perhaps it is my vengeful speaking, but I want to break any support this guy has before we send him packing. Expose him for what he is... a troll.

[Taylor Millard]

Yeah but who would rally at his side?

The Shrine? Okay let them.

If we present clear and precise evidence...then people will understand why we're doing this.

Let's use evidence where people will not say, "Oh we just hate him" I have nothing against him personally. I think he's an okay guy. He just has no common sense...and he's got to learn that bitching and moaning will NOT get him anywhere. At all.

[Pierce Tondry]

Figgy: Well, I would counter that by questioning why he continues to come to a board where he feels oppressed.

Normally, I would agree with you on the ultimatum thing. I'm a fairly lenient guy, after all. But without resurrecting all the evidence, I think Gue has simply presented a host of small problems that, when analyzed in their cumulative effect, have had a disrupting influence on the harmony of the board. I think to offer a chance yet again on this continually recurring issue is pointless.

The short form of that is that, whatever you want to try, has been done, and he just hasn't gotten it.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

The point is, Gue has had ultimatum/s in the past. At least, thats what has been said. I have not personally delivered any ultimatum to him.

[DarthHERA]

Those links in Charleys first post dont work for me.

The first Eve gave me; the second opens a page, but I have no idea where to find the peice of writing in question.

Can someone help with this?

[Sanis Prent]

I don't know why they don't...but if you must know, its a flash movie.

[ReaperFett]

Taylor, the problem is this. Gue gets banned, some disagree. They convince others it is wrong. THey....


What Im saying is, you cant really just assume right now that only one group will care.

[Morgan Evanar]

You guys need to buckle down and do whats right instead of worrying about other people's reactions.

[Taylor Millard]

Originally posted by ReaperFett
Taylor, the problem is this. Gue gets banned, some disagree. They convince others it is wrong. THey....


What Im saying is, you cant really just assume right now that only one group will care.


Fett you're being too pessimistic. You think that just because Gue gets banned and complains, we'll lose membership.

I disagree. You can't convince everyone that banning Gue is the right thing to do. It's a fact of life.

And remember, not everyone will think the right course of action is the most prudent.

Gue has broken the rules plenty of time. He's been warned...plenty of times. And still he does it.

Ban him and get it over with it. We present the case and people'll go, "Okay we see."

And if they don't...their loss. Not ours.

We won't have a major upheaval here at SWFans.

[ReaperFett]

You guys need to buckle down and do whats right instead of worrying about other people's reactions.
But if everyone reacted bad, then we didnt do whats right, surely?

[Morgan Evanar]

But if everyone reacted bad, then we didnt do whats right, surely?


The popular thing isn't always right.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Gue hasn't even posted here that I've seen in a few days. :huh

[ReaperFett]

He said bye.

[Taylor Millard]

Yeah but he also said he was coming back.

[Navaria Tarkin]

anyway, isn't gue's banning or not being decided by a vote? And we are going to explain to everyone why he is being banned ?

Fett, people aren't going to be happy but what are you going to do? If we warn him or ban him some are going to complain that what we are doing is wrong and gloss over the fact that what gue IS doing is wrong. can't win |I

[Ryla Relvinian]

Just ban the little weasel.