3 month rule...

[Liam Jinn]

Eh, instead of hijacking Ryla's thread, I figured I'd start my own. It's pointless to have it around, it's not like we're running on a set timeline anyway. Before the rule was around, we promoted when we felt they were ready. Why can't we just go back to doing that?

[Verse Dawnstrider]

I will agree. Some people are ready before three months. Others later. It is a case by case thing.

[Figrin D'an]

While that may be true, that different people progress at different rates, the 3 month limit does a couple of things...

1) Allows ample time for people to learn and show progress. Bursting out of the gates, and being gung-ho about RP is great... but there is always room to learn and improve... patience is so much a virtue in RP, this is a way to teach that.

2) It gives masters and the Council an adequate time frame over which to grade a padawans progress... monitor involvement, observe behaviors, make suggestions and provide council...

3) It's just plain easier from a logistics standpoint.


The rule emerged from a "quality over quantity" philosophy. It's easier to gauge a person's value to the group over a few months then over a few weeks, or less. Other groups, in the past, had less stringant regulations on promotion... the result being more people advancing quickly, but less long term involvement. We took the opposite stance... the results have been that our sheer recruiting numbers were lower, but we ended up with a higher number of long term, solid RPers. We always knew that some people would shy away from those more strict requirements, or would lose interest early on. But those that did fulfill the set program would have a better chance at staying around longer and being more involved.


These are, more or less, the arguments presented that caused the rule to be enacted. This isn't necessarily my personal opinion. If there is enough interest in reviewing the rule, I'm sure a council vote can be arranged.

[Oriadin]

Im of the opinion the rule should not stand. Ive been here around 6/7 months now (I think) as a padawan and I still feel im not ready. It should be the masters decision alone to decide if they think they are ready, then it is up to the council to decide whether the rank of Jedi knight should be given.

I have noticed that when some people get promoted, a series of links is given to prove how good they are. Perhaps this is something we should look at. Afterall, you could have 30 rubbish posts, and two good ones. Post the link of two good ones and everyone thinks your something special.

I think that the council should be aware of the person about to become a knight. Its the job of the padawan and the master to get known by all. Get involved in things. They should be a part of the Jedi Order, not just be here.

There is no need to have a three month ruling here. The Masters should just make sure their padawans are ready. If there was a test for every padawan to go through, even if it was just to answer questions in front of the council, this may help make sure the padawan has been taught thoughaly, and not rushed.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Aye, totally correct you are Oriadin. Sejah would nuke most roleplayers and I could put him up for promotion when I felt like it - but I know we have not done enough together to establish Sejah as a Jedi. Mainly my fault, I'm tardy to reply. If he was IC ready in two months, I'd put him up for promotion. I view the three month rule as a guideline. Hell, I got to Master in three months. But different standards and I was one hell of a lot more active.

Three months is a good guide, but if someone's ready before, why not.

The other two rules of thumb I have is that a promotion must not be asked for (That's a fatal misstep with me) and also that a promotion is self evident. It should be a case of "why the frell didnt we do this sooner?". That's just my view however.

[Oriadin]

Yeah, it should be obvious to all. Not a, who is this guy? Have we got proof he can RP.

[Sene Unty]

I think its just a good point of referance for new padawans in which to judge themselves. It gives us a set time frame in mind to graduate them. I don't think we should limit it to three months, but I think we should let it be known this is how long it might take.

[Oriadin]

Why? If they are patient, then they shouldnt need to know a time. This is the whole problem. After three months, if they havent been knighted they might start to think, well, whats wrong with me. If they ask how long it takes the reply should be simple. As long as needed for you to be ready.

[Ryla Relvinian]

I agree with all of the points here, and like I mentioned in the other thread, a promotion is not an entitlement, it is an obvious next step. Still, I feel that three months be the minimum... some people have had previous RP experience, can hit the ground running and write beautifully. Still, I say that it takes time being here, being around others, and learning to interact in this world for at least three months before someone is ready.

Patience is the problem with most Padawans... They cannot see that a large number of posts does not equal good quality posts. I do get a sick pleasure out of watching hotshot padawans come in, rack up the posts, then get impatient and leave... Why waste my time? Why waste yours? It's one thing to please ask nicely to say a good word for someone but it's totally different (and annoying, I might add) to constantly whine that all their friends are knights... blah blah blah... When someone acts like that it's a sure sign that I'm not going to ask for their promotion.

[Sejah Haversh]

I personally don't have a problem with the three month rule. If nothing else, it shows new people that, yes, we do expect you to stick around. I have run several boards, and it is extremely frustrating when someone leaves two months into it. I mean, on my boards, if you were to join, I'd expect thay you'd be around for at least a year. Yeah, a year.

The three month rule might not have to be followed to a 'T', but, to at least have some idea of an expected timeline does help a lot of people, I think. That, and to really go from a walk-in-the-door know-nothing-about-the-Force type character to Knighhood would, in my opinion, take at least three monts in training. And that's if you have a speedy master to reply to you. Heck, took me two months to at least even GET a master (No, Marcus, I'm not complaining) and that, I believe is more of a test of whether or not a new person will stick around. When/if I become a knight, who I choose as a Padawan will have to stick it out and prove their patience before I pick them.

I believe that the three month rule helps in thatit establishes that, yes, we do expect you to be capable to being patient, and also obeying rules. Good, simple rules like that are also nice in that they promote the following of other rules.

Well, I'll step down off my soapbox now, hope I made sense.

[Morgan Evanar]

I feel that promoting anyone before three months is just borderline irresponsible. Sure, they may have a grasp of how things work, but there is no substitute for time. You need those three months to establish your character's personality, if nothing else.

[Sejah Haversh]

Very, very true. Personality is very important.

And, for a new character, sometimes three monts isn't even enough to develop a new personality in. Even if you do have a pre-conceived notion of how you want your character to be, given time and interaction you'll see your depth grow, and you'll become more believable. I have a character I created over two years ago, and had a good background for him then, but, over this time, his background and culture has flourished into half a world of history and mannerisms. Don't believe me, ask Loki.

To simply train is not enough, to become a Jedi one's character has to grow. And in three months, how much can you really grow, especially since IC time passes at about 1/10'th that of OOC time?

[Vega Van-Derveld]

I agree with Morg.

[Wei Wu Wei]

3 month rule? I never knew it existed until one of my friends got on AIM and was like, "my 3 months are up! promotion time!"

And I was like, "WTF?"

I personally have no problem with the 3 month rule, but as a padawan, you can only do so many RPs until you begin to run out of ideas. Most of my friends that RP padawans are impatient to get their 3 months over just so they can get padawans to teach and have something new to do.

[Liam Jinn]

I completely disagree with Morgan and Vega. People RP differently, so you really can't make that assumption. Well, you can, but it's not necessarily accurate.

[Marcus Telcontar]

One thing we do make clear is that people are promoted, not based on a time of stay. Okay, three months is a guideline, but the point MUST be made in no way shape and order is it "Okay three months is up, here's your promotion"

No, No, No.

Promotions are always done on merit. Always. Three months is a guide, but the fact is, if your not ready in a year, well there will still be no promotion and some Padawans can attest. The reason three months guide came in is that simply that almost no one is ready in three months. Unlike other groups (*coughTSETSCcough*) there is NO set formulas, nor is there a madness on quantity. It's quality. I'ld rather have 1 Sejah instead of 100 Darth Stone's.

It's not going too far to say GJO has always had a good core of indecently good roleplayers, which does raise the bar. Touch of eliteism? Mmmm.... if not careful, yes, but in the main it weeds out the Itala's and Stone's of the Internet.

Thinking about those two, three months isnt a bad idea - just to weed out ones like that -_-

[Navaria Tarkin]

If you really look at it, most people are promoted after three months anyway ...

to emphasize this once more .... IT IS A GUIDELINE as stated. Just because you been around and have done things doesn't mean you get promoted right away. Depending on how you play your character, especially if you like playing with fire aka the Dark Side, you're not going to get that promotion.

But if you are loyal and around, then you will get what you deserved. Otherwise the title of Knight will be thrown around like candy and mean nothing.

Pay your dues with time, not money people :)

[Oriadin]

Hmmm, ok. I take the point about haveing the three month thing to get rid of the people are arent willing to stick it out. I look at a few promotion requests and so many times one of the first things people ask is, 'have they been here for 3 months'. Now, this does imply that the three month thing rules all.

If its going to be there, then it should be an unwritten rule. As Wei Wu said, he had a friend that said to him, "my 3 months are up! promotion time!". This is the problem the 3 month thing has. Like I said above, I think someone should only be knighted when the council know who they are, rather than being told who they are. They should be aware of how good they are.

[Lion El' Jonson]

I agree with MOST of the points here, though I'm too lazy to list them all...^_^;

Anyway, I've been here for, like, four months, and I still don't think that I'm ready. I've seen the way that most of the Masters, and most of the Knights, RP, and it's still beyond what I could do on my own. A lot of the padawans (<--me included...remember the dance thread?) have been raising their post count like it was strapped to a rocket. I USED to do that, before I realised that there were some knights with 500 posts, or something.

So, the three month thing is more like a limit. If somebody is ready before that, I say that they should wait until they pass the three months. Besides being a helluva lot easier to keep track of, some people will complain if "Mr. T" gets promoted in 2 1/2 months, and they've been there for 4 months and haven't been considered...I pity the fool....:lol

[Wei Wu Wei]

Yeah, I have noticed that, and have heard others complain about post counts, etc, etc. My post count is so high because I am on RPing all the time. And participating in alot of thread hijackings. I RP in order to better write books, and by RPing like this, it makes character development alot easier to do, etc etc.

[Salemn Lysce]

Well, I've been here long before Xazor came, and even so I just got promoted. Now, it's not like I mind, but I think that we should at least have a time limit for when a Padawan's promotion can come up.

Why ? It also helps us see how patient they are.

Wei, I think I know who you're talking about, but if someone goes "My 3 months are up! promotion time!" they've got another thing coming. Just because of the time you've spent here at GJO doesn't automatically qualify you to rise in status. Heck, I'm living proof. It also depends on the quality, not the quantity. Most of the Padawans here have way more posts than me, but it doesn't mean that their number of posts will help them out in the End. What will, however, is how they play their character(s), if they god-mode, etc.

So, I think we should still keep the 3 month rule, but I'm sad to see that now it's being interpreted that as soon as that time is up it's an automatic promotion.

[Oriadin]

Seems like the majority want to keep the three month rule and I can understand why but if we are to keep it we need to find a way to stop people thinking that after three months is up, they should be knighted.

Now, ive been over and taken a look at what it says in the recruitments FAQ. In there it says

"Promotions - don't ask. Roleplay at http://www.swforums.net . 3 months is the shortest time we have promoted someone from Padawan to Knight."

Now, to me that does not imply that when three months is up, you get promoted. So somewhere along the line they are getting the impression that 3 months entitles knighthood. Its my opinion that they are getting this from when somone suggests a padawan is ready, and then someone else comes along and asks if they have been here three months?

To be honest, I really dont think we need the three month ruling. Why is it here? If somone is ready IC and OOC then why not knight them? Its doesnt make any sense. The only people that should be knighted are the ones who have proven that they have the ability, the knowledge, the patience and the RPing skills. Time should have no relevence.

I think that it has got to be almost impossible to prove to everyone that you have the ability to be a Jedi in under 3 months anyway. When someone is ready, then it should be obvious to all, so what point is there in holding things up? Id be very very suprised to see many become ready in under 3 months anyway. If padawans are made to make themselves known to all before knighthood then this is going to take time. You shouldnt have to post links of how good someone is, the council should be aware and if they are not, you need more time.

[Wei Wu Wei]

Whoa, are we seriously going to judge whether or not a person is ready for Knighthood using OOC material? I thought promotions were considered IC only. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

[Oriadin]

Sorry, I wasnt clear enough. By OOC I meant writting ability. Not god moding. Things like that. Sorry.

[Lion El' Jonson]

Ick...God Moding...

One person comes to mind when I think of god moding....:lol


So, anyways...I guess people just conclude that "Hell, I've been here three months! I'm hardcore!", and that's where they're getting the idea for the 3 month promotion...erm, thingy...

[Liam Jinn]

"3 months is the shortest time we have promoted someone from Padawan to Knight."

BS :p

Back in the day, me and my RP bro were promoted in something like 27 days :)

[Wei Wu Wei]

Cool. So, what is the general consensus on this 3 month rule? Can we get people to vote, and someone keep a running tally?

[Kelt Simoson]

I dont see the needto change the rules once again, i like them how they are to be perfectly honest.

[Oriadin]

I still feel it needs to be discused further.

[Navaria Tarkin]

Honestly, I still don't see the problem. Three months is just a referance for a new person Rping... if the Master doesn't feel they are ready, then don't promote them ... continue with the training.

Sometimes special consideration is taken into account like with Soolin and Helenias ... which is debated and then voted on. So once again I fail to see the point here :p

[Marcus Telcontar]

<------------------ points to Nav.

Dead right. Three months is a guide, not a be all and end all. The prime factors in promotion are...

1) Adherence to the GJO
2) Adherence to your Master
3) Roleplay - the more the better
4) Dont ask for promotion, it's fatal to your chances
5) PATIENCE!!! HAVE PATIENCE!!!
6) See point 4
7) I 'm totally serious about point 4. Dont ask. Earn it If that means you take longer, then so be it.

And if special consideration needs to be given, it is.

[Figrin D'an]

Honestly, I really don't think a lot of additional discussion on this is needed. At this point, everyone is basically rehashing the same arguments, just wording them slightly differently.

We might as well set up a vote and decide this. If there is a need to reword or append the FAQ to make the "3 month guideline rule," we can discuss that one the vote is taken on whether or not to maintain the rule.

[Marcus Telcontar]

I really dont think a vote is needed. To me the FAQ says that three months is but a guideline and not an expectation, only change would be to make it clearer, that is all

[Oriadin]

Originally posted by Navaria Tarkin
Honestly, I still don't see the problem. Three months is just a referance for a new person Rping... if the Master doesn't feel they are ready, then don't promote them ... continue with the training.

Sometimes special consideration is taken into account like with Soolin and Helenias ... which is debated and then voted on. So once again I fail to see the point here :p

If we are going to have a three month rule, then I dont think there should be any exceptions. We either have the rule or we dont.

[Helenias Evenstar]

We have a three month rule? I always thought it was just when you believed the padawan was ready....?

[Hrolthar Benatoer]

Oriadin to be honest mate i dont see how thee can be any exceptions...you said it yourself we ether have ityournot...i vote we keep it...

[Estelle Russard]

Guidline, not rule. Its difficult to have absolutes. People rp at varying degree's of ability, so to base promotion soley on time isnt the best solution.

I think maybe people worry they cant advance their character if they remain a padawan (NOT saying that Oriadin, you feel this, but just in general terms). But this isnt true.

Your character should be growing and expanding in ability constantly - it doesnt necessarily HAVE to have a title to operate at a certain level, as long as the transition has been roleplayed and developed realistically, and the character evolves gradually. Not suddenly a padawan can do everything a knight can for example. I know that this might be a dangerous way to look at things and maybe there is a list somewhere that says - a padawan abosultely wont be able to do such and such. ?

Beside all that, I think sometimes its too easy to be hung up on title rather than just who the character is.

Again let me say, this is not directed at anyone in particular - its just my observation and actually, my experience in the evolution of Estelle.

Roleplay successes and failures for your character, and just enjoy the game. Promotions, Titles will come sooner than you expect. :)

[Wei Wu Wei]

If the 3 month rule is a guidline, then why was Zeke denied his promotion because his first 3 months had not passed?

Maia thought he was qualified, and they both got chewed out because 3 months were not up. I sense a double standard...

[Gurney Devries]

Guidelines are meant to be adhered to. The reason why it's not a rule is to avoid having people say things like "Well, I've been here for 3 months already, how come I'm not a Knight yet??". That's just not how it works. A guideline means that, as a general rule of thumb, they don't promote people before they've been here for at least three months. Personally, I think that's pretty generous: It used to take much longer for people to make it to Knight.

[Estelle Russard]

Based on my previous comment - I dont see the hurry..?


3 months really isnt so long ya know.

[Wei Wu Wei]

I know. Points well made. I just thought I'd bring that up. So our 3 month guideline is an unofficial rule, eh? But bear in mind that if any new person is promoted in less than 3 months, someone WILL get mad and will start accusing people of playing favorites. We all know what will happen after that....

[Navaria Tarkin]

But no one gets promoted, since I have been here, before three months because most feel it is too short a time.

I think we should be listening to more of estelle anyway. The point about being here isnt about promotions, being on the council or anything else that you can get through RPing. Granted, they are nice bonuses. Remember, it is about creating life out of something in your mind and having fun around these parts.

As i have seen while I am sick, hasn't been fun here for various reasons .... most know what I am talking about ... not pointing any fingers since the thread is closed and I am not rehashing anything ... just, sometimes we loose sight why we are here. See above first two paragraphs.... :)

That statement works for both OOC yuck and the IC promotions etc. Sit down, drink a beverage and enjoy being on the computer. When it isn't fun anymore ... then walk away till it is again. Seriously, this promotion thing really isn't that important :)

:: knows Wei is eying her :: :mischief

[Oriadin]

Originally posted by Wei Wu Wei
If the 3 month rule is a guidline, then why was Zeke denied his promotion because his first 3 months had not passed?

Maia thought he was qualified, and they both got chewed out because 3 months were not up. I sense a double standard...

This is exactly the problem this rule causes. Im not saying that Wei was unhappy at not being given the rank of knight. I expect he went aways saying thats fair enough, I'll just keep my head down and keep going for now then.

In Nav's earlier post she said that Helenias and Soolin had been knighted before the three months were up. Now, this to me is double standard. If there is a rule, then it should be stuck to. Everyone should abide by it. Otherwise people get the feeling of favoritism. If its just a guidline, then if Wei was ready IC then there shouldnt have been any reason not to knight him. If the case was that the council didnt feel he was ready then that should have been said, not 'has he been here three months'.

A couple of comments have been aimed in my direction so far in this thread, I dont mind that but I just want to stress the fact that Im completely happy being a padawan at the moment. I really feel that IC, Oriadin is not ready yet. Im just trying to put forth my comments to ensure things are fair for all and that we all understand. :)

[Marcus Telcontar]

I'ld point out that Helenias could have gotten any rank she wanted and so could Soolin - the reason being "special circumstance". Both are mind blowingly good roleplayers and both have been around, literally for years.

(Actually, I know that Helenias didnt even want a rank and refused one at first, but eventually thought it best as she wanted to help train others)

Personally, I have no idea what the situation withZeke is, have not read that, so I can not comment. But as I said, to me it's a guideline. But to me, it would take someone pretty special to deserve Knighthood without reservations before three months is up!

[Oriadin]

Thats fair enough. Ive never really come into contact with Soolin but as you are aware, Helenias is my master. She is indeed a very good roleplayer and she always get me interested in her posts. Im glad she is my master as I feel im always learning from her. I dont doubt the fact that Helenias should be a knight. That is the reason I think knighthood should be soley based on the ability to roleplay and after the character has been developed enough. Helenias and Soolin both became knights because they were good enough. Not because of time or anything but because they were good. This should go for everyone else.

I too would be very suprised if many people make knight before three months. Its the job of the master to make sure they are not rushing through things and to know when the person is ready. At the moment, three months isnt a guidline, it is being used as a rule. How many times has someone been denied the rank of knight simply because they havent been here three months? That sounds like a rule to me.

[Lion El' Jonson]

Ya, Helenias is one helluva RPer...except I almost passed out when I read this one paragraph she wrote...It was like a page long...

Anyways, I don't really know the situation with Zeke. If he was denied the position of Knight because of the 3 month rule, there was only one reason: because "3 months" is a rule, not a guideline. If he was denied it for other reasons, like he wasn't considered ready (though Maia thought he was), or that it was unrealistic...well, then...it kinda depends on the situation.

[Navaria Tarkin]

I said that special circumstances were taken into account about Soolin and Helenias... and also, like to point about that Soolin was never knighted here. She was a Jedi by herself and her situation with the Order never was clear. So the only official player to be given Knight was Helenias.

Once again... guideline here folks unless there are special circumstances that ALL agree with. ALL means everyone here in the GJO

[Diego Van Derveld]

Yes speaking of that (takes a giant mallet and thwacks every council member back to that thread)

[Wei Wu Wei]

This is exactly the problem this rule causes. Im not saying that Wei was unhappy at not being given the rank of knight.

I do not RP Zeke. Zeke is my brother, and when he told me of his promotion, I went to see the thread and found people chewing him and Maia out for the 3 month thing. This is why I mentioned it. I don't want my brothers discriminated against.

[Oriadin]

agh, sorry mate, I did mean to say Zeke there, not Wei.

[Navaria Tarkin]

what are you talking about sanis? o_O

[Lion El' Jonson]

...I dunno...Sanis bumbles on about a lot of things...:lol

Anyway, I'd like to see that "chew out" thread. I'd go look for it, but I'm too lazy. Anyways, we need to decide if 3 months is a rule or a suggestion.

[Zeke]

Lion, I'd REALLY rather not ressurect that thing. You can do without seeing it.

[Lion El' Jonson]

wait, hold on, I found it...it wasn't that bad...

...well, not as bad as most of the other stuff...but you're right, I could see that somebody was itching to turn off the filter and let loose...:lol