Quick observations....

[Marcus Telcontar]

Where in the five films we have seen so far, have the Sith acted out of outright hostility and pure anger?

Quote from an article I just read....


"The Jedi tell their trainees to reach out with their feelings to discover the force, but to repress their negative emotions, which would take them to the dark side. It's curious that we almost never see the Sith lords acting with fear, anger. They are cold and calculating, almost robotic -- in the standard Hollywood motif of offering audiences snidely-superior villains to hate. In fact it's almost silly the way they calmly keep telling Luke to give in to his anger, reminding him of what he's been warned about. But they don't seem to give into anger themselves."

Interesting point actually.... there isnt an lot of anger in the Sith seen so far. Cold blooded, absolutly. Disgust? Yes, Dooku at Obi wan's and Anakins failure to make a challenge and Palpatine when Luke throws his sabre away. Fact is Palpatine does seem to be sort of like "Oh well, *shrug* I kill you now" and gets his jollies from trying. Anger? I wonder.

And another quote ...

"His silly Yoda-philosophy was bearable in Empire Strikes Back (ESB), where it seemed a mild pseudo-eastern wisdom. Indeed, ESB conveyed something true -- getting angry CAN cloud your judgement. Calm can help a hero stay effective.

But then ROTJ and TPM went much farther, spreading an outright lie that tipped over into madness, claiming the following... that the mere act of getting angry AT evil will TURN you evil!

So, all the men who got mad at Adolf Hitler ran right out and joined the Nazi Party, right? Find one example where that happened. Even one. Yet, dig it, that IS what Lucasian force-dogma predicts."

I'd agree with that myself. Jedi certainly get angry, but point one of the quote was always in the back of my mind. Act effectively by being clearminded. But you can still get angry.

Hate Anger, suffering, is indeed a path to the Dark Side.... but is it necessary to use the Dark Side? Clearly not. Dooku doesnt seem to be acting out of true anger, fact is, he seems rather calm to me. More so than some Jedi.

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

Damn, finally some sense. I use to say exactly that, the way I RP using the force comes from 'Forcing' it to do my bidding. Hence, its a Master/Slave aspect. It comes fast, its easy.

THe Jedi, I see them being allies to the force, they coax it to help, ask it to help. Hence the reason it takes more effort, but in the long run, it has more power.

Which is why the Jedi, (in my view) claim to be weakening in AOTC, they have forgotten that they are allies and have become almost like a demanding landlord. In turn, the force is not 'Motivated' enough to help them, and they lack the Master/Slave aspect of the Dark Side.

[Kregain Richtien]

As I understand it; A jedi can get angry, but to act on that anger is a path that leads to the darkside

The force is the lifeforce that sorounds all beings, not an entity that grants power, nor a source from which to judge good against evil, the force simply is, the perception is one of sentients

[Marcus Telcontar]

Damn, finally some sense. I use to say exactly that, the way I RP using the force comes from 'Forcing' it to do my bidding. Hence, its a Master/Slave aspect. It comes fast, its easy.

THe Jedi, I see them being allies to the force, they coax it to help, ask it to help. Hence the reason it takes more effort, but in the long run, it has more power.

Which is why the Jedi, (in my view) claim to be weakening in AOTC, they have forgotten that they are allies and have become almost like a demanding landlord. In turn, the force is not 'Motivated' enough to help them, and they lack the Master/Slave aspect of the Dark Side.

That's an interesting way to view it. Much thought I'll have with that point, cause it does have an edge of probabilty to it

[Marcus Telcontar]

Link to the original article...

http://www.davidbrin.com/starwarsarticle3.html

Some good points, some that are wrong. But, it's thought provoking.

[Nupraptor]

Hate Anger, suffering, is indeed a path to the Dark SideI tend to agree with this: It is the path to the Dark Side. They are base, an anyone is succeptible to them. Even Jedi are succeptible to feelings such as anger, as is evident by Anakin's downfall.

However, once the Dark Side has consumed you... say, once you reach the rank of Sith Knight/Lord, simple Anger and Hatred are replaced by a deeper need: Most commonly, the need to inflict pain and suffering. Palpatine, for one, seems to take genuine pleasure in seeing others suffer.

But it can take on a multitude of forms. Megalomania, for one. The desire to take what you want by force. The "Might makes Right" mindset.

It's like a drug addiction. You start off with the little things, then you slowly progress. In his fit of rage, Anakin slaughtered the Tusekn raiders. But he did indeed feel remorse for doing so (this was characterized much better in the novel / graphic novel). But once the Dark Side has consumed him, once he became Darth Vader... Anger gave way to ruthlessness. Hatred gave way to determination. And somewhere, undearneath all of it, both him and Palpatine felt that they were doing what needed to be done.

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

The force is the lifeforce that sorounds all beings, not an entity that grants power, nor a source from which to judge good against evil, the force simply is, the perception is one of sentients

You are correct, it is a life force... but how bout this:

A Software is niether good nor evil. It is what makes a computer a computer. Users use the programs, they follow the rules. In response, the Software and the computer itself works.
Hackers distrub that work. They take the software and change it, bend it to fit certain goals. Goals in which the Hackers want.

Lets change the Words to the Star Wars Style

The Force is niether good nor evil. It is just what makes life, Life.
Jedi use the force, they use it for good, to protect the people. In response, the force gives them power, gives them peace.
Sith distrub that peace. They take the force and change it.
They Force it to there will. The Sith Commands the force.

[Wei Wu Wei]

Deep. I approve.

[Marcus Telcontar]

But Hackers are not necessarily evil. Thats a very, very bad analogy - I'm a hacker in real life. Not as good as I once was, but I am. I am not an evil one either. Bending and shaping somethign to your command is not necessarily evil, just like a bend and shape networks to my command.

Now, saying the Sith deliberatly break the Force and go against the will of the Force, yes I can agree to that to a degree.

I think however that the difference comes in Selfishness. A Jedi uses the Force for unselfish means. A Sith is totally selfish. A Jedi does not use his / her power for themselves, but for others.

[Kar'h'tzen Shaed]

Darth Vader - just LISTEN to the malice in James Earl Jones' voice when he says "You don't know the power of the dark side", and of course in other places as well. You can't tell me you think Vader is super smooth calm on the inside just because the expression on his mask never changes. Read his body language - stalking about all the time. Listen to his voice.

Darth Maul - I'll admit it may be mostly the makeup, but he really seems evilly angry while fighting two Jedi in Episode I - and is also the one who confronts them. They don't hunt him down. I'd call that outright hostility. He intended to kill them both. He remains believably angry-like in his facial expressions (since he doesn't talk and is too busy fighting to convey much with body language) during his big scenes. Still, it could be the makeup. And after he **SPOILER** kills Qui-Gon, he still seems plenty full of malice for young Kenobi.

Darth Sidious - well, here the problems begin. You only really see him enraged when he's **SPOILER** toasting Luke. The rest of the time he manages to hide it all within - seemingly. Can someone plotting the deaths of millions really be that placid on the inside? Again, it's in the voice. His body language is very subdued when he's not in character as Palpatine, yet still can seem menacing. "So be it... Jedi."

Darth Tyrannus - sure, he bears the Darth title, but he seems more Dark Jedi to me. There's no telling if he's more Sith or more fallen Jedi other than that... he's like a Palpatine with way more panache and seeming good humour. Yet the good humour is still obviously underlaid with malice - observe his joking around with Mace right as he knows he's about to witness the murder of a hundred Jedi. Or his toying with Kenobi, or (so I'm told) Padme. Toying implies malice. Malice implies hatred.

That's all I've got going for now.

[Kregain Richtien]

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Now, saying the Sith deliberatly break the Force and go against the will of the Force, yes I can agree to that to a degree.
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How can one break, or go against the force? The force is an omnipresent, well... for lack of a better term, force that is everywhere. The force has no will of its own, it just is, again, its all in the interpretation of the thing.

An analogy, an incorrect analogy. To consider the force as a river, naturaly flowing towards good, while those sith and other darkside users being represented by trout swiming against the stream. Rather, the Force should be more like the ocean, massive, incomprehensible, yet there. Currents twisting and turning all about, under the surface and above the top. The force is all things, while being nothing specific....

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

Hmmm, sorry about that Marcus, In the original writing I wrote something along the lines as,

people fear hackers, and so label them as evil. People Fear Sith, and Label them as evil. Yet I belive not all of them see themselves as evil.

But it seemed to me it got off topic, so I rewrote my anology, and it wasn't added in.

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

I'm trying to add George Lucuses little... midi-cloriahan (sp?) crap into it. If you take in account the midi's, then my view of the force almost fits to perfection.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Malice does not imply hatred. Malice can be the torturing of a insect or the denying of water to a hobo when they are dying. True evil is to me cold-blooded acts that make no sense. Not out of anger, but with a wave of the hand - "Execute him!" "But he has done nothing wrong!" "Do I care?" Now that is evil and that to me is what Palpatine and Dooku are. Cold blooded people acting in cold blood and deliberatly. Dooku is basically shrugging his shoulders and saying "Okay, you all die now. Bye Bye". That does not take malice or even anger. Toying also does not imply hatred. It could imply a degranged mind, who takes pleasure out of perverse acts. "Hey, I dont hate you, but I want to see you suffer!"

Have you been in a fight Shaed? A real one or even in a martial arts one? Whne the adrenaline is pumping and all you want to do is grind your opponent to red goo? Well, I look look f'king mad, but inside I'm cold and calculating. The best fighters are. Maul is to me gritting his teeth and is detirmined to win. No anger needed. It's normally anger that sucks you into a misstep and then you lose. So he's out to kill Jedi. Well, that's his orders and that is what he is goign to do.

Vader is the only one who seems to work out of anger at all, that no denying. But is it used with The Force? That I am not so sure.

Palpatine is to me being "Oh, so you go against me? Fine, you die". And in zapping Luke, he seems to be more sadistic than angry, getting his jollies out of causing as much pain as possible. You dont have to be angry to do that. Just deranged.

[Marcus Telcontar]

I'm trying to add George Lucuses little... midi-cloriahan (sp?) crap into it. If you take in account the midi's, then my view of the force almost fits to perfection

*chokes*

I hated how Lucas did that... makes the Force like a disease. midi-chlorines. Yuck.

Well, most hackers are kids with too much curiousity. Real Evil Dudes are very few and far between. Hacking is not in itself an evil, but Sith in itself is an evil. However, Plapatine in the TPM novel genuinely thinks he is doing the right thing.

[Kregain Richtien]

I think a quick clarification probobaly needs to be made, the sith (ancient break away dark jedi) are evil. Sith race is not inherently evil for all intensive porpouses

[Wei Wu Wei]

The Sith are ambitious. They know what they want and they take steps to get it.

The Jedi have no wishes. They are like mountains, immovable because they have no weaknesses to exploit. Anakin had desires. He had weaknesses. And those ambitions are what got him comsumed by the darkside.

[Kar'h'tzen Shaed]

Well, it all depends upon your point of view, I suppose. Saying malice implies anger does not neccessarily mean it really DOES mean anger is behind the malice. But the two can still often go along.

Excellent points about Maul, though. But of course his actions ARE born out of an underlying hostility. Possibly. No one ever says for sure.

But I'd say that wanting Jedi dead implies hostility towards those Jedi.

[Marcus Telcontar]

But I'd say that wanting Jedi dead implies hostility towards those Jedi.

Maybe. But hostility is not necessarily anger wither.

[Kar'h'tzen Shaed]

Yes, yes. Hostility = malice, more or less. There, that's cleared up! :)

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

I say, Sith are not evil per say, they just belive in the Strong survive. And will do anything to become the most powerful. I belive Sith can have other feelings. I know some of you think that Sith have to be angry all the time. But I think thats just crap.
The Sith are more of Warrior Race. They use the Dark Side, because it is easier. But is the Dark Side wrong? Using Anger, hate, and such does not make you evil. It is using in the wrong way which makes it evil. Killing just to kill.

[Wei Wu Wei]

Hostility is when someone rubs you the wrong way. Like when one animal trespasses into another animal's territory. The animal doesn;t really hate the trespasser, it just wants its territory to itself. Like when your parents/siblings/sons and daughters come barging into your room...you love those family members, but you still don;t want them in your room.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Righteous anger (ex. in the Bible - Jesus clearing out the temple) is most certainly permissible for a Jedi.

Vengeful anger? Negative! Path to the Darkside this is!

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

Ah, but in the Bible it says our God, is a Vengeful, and Jealous God.

See, here is our biggest problem, mixing Christian beliefs into Star Wars. The Crusaders belived they where doing good, and invaded the middle east. The witchburnings of old, the people thought they where doing God's work and toasted the women.

Its all in your point of view.

[Korik Bannor]

:: Shakes his head ::





History is full of examples of erroneous interpretations concerning beliefs. :(