Attack of the lame script

[B-LoVeD AssAsSiN]

Ok now that most of the wonder of the movie has worn off i can see it's actually crap.
Dooku was the only exceptionally awesome thing in the movie.
Although Yoda fighting is cool that just comprises of 2 minutes. i could just go download the trailer of that, and plus it's not something you'd feel like going back and watching endlessly like luke vs vader on hoth and DS2.
This is also the ONLY movie in the saga that is tedious and difficult to sit through. The romance is done real crap. Not like the Han and Leia one this is feels -DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR-. Combine that with the half assed attempts at trying to sound witty/sarcastic by annie and obi wan to attain eternal -DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR-tiness. "If you'll excuse me" "I don't like flying" "I hate it when he does that" and the finest, "No, not good".
And like EGM said anyone apart from someone who cant do better than to say " I HATE them!" when trying to put emotions into words would laugh at Padme saying she's dying a little each day. I hate sand, don't you?
And why does MAce Windu seem more like Shaft than a Jedi master? why don't key characters that we hven't seen get some characterization, like Bail Organa? btw when people say Mace gets deep characterization, talking BMF for 2 min. to dooku andcutting of someone's head doesn't really make him stand out. It might as well have been Obi Wan who did that.
Do droids dream? how come 3P0's head takes over a droids body while he can still be him when another droids head is stamped on him?
Why are Palpatine and Sidious hardly ever used? it's not like theres 6 more movies to portray/develop palpatine's interest in annie or give sidious some characterization. sure he's supposed to be mysterious but a 30 second-2 line appearance is just unfair. Hell, JAR JAR got more than him.
This is definitely the least rewatchable movie of them all and the only thing that makes it memorable was the last 15 minutes.
TPM might have been a bit stiff and it did have it's lame parts, namely jar jar and other kiddie stuff, but it wasnt hard to sit thru.i can bear to watch the beginning fights, the senate scenes and other stuff, and i can just about take the jar jar stealing frogs bits. but anakin trying to hit on padme in aotc packed in with lame dialogue is the dark side of the movies.

[JMK]

Holy bejesus that was hard to read! :p
I had a couple gripes with the script. One instance with the romance thing at Padme's getaway resort, and the number of times the word "politician" is used throughout the movie. I got sick of hearing that word really fast. Also, the number of times "my young apprentice/padawan" got to me a little as well. But otherwise I thought the script was alot better than TPM's.

[Figrin D'an]

I certainly don't feel that AOTC is perfect, by any means. It has some things that didn't work from my perspective, or that I just thought could have been done better. But, I don't think it's nearly as bad as you portray it to be. I would hardly call it tedious... the romance development, while not being tremendously exciting, is critical to the overall story. It had to be done at some point. I actually think that interlacing the Anakin/Padme sequences on Naboo with the Obi-Wan "detective story" was an effective way to keep the plot moving while still dealing with the necessities of the tale.

Anyway... it's all personal opinion. Most people I know feel that AOTC was much better that TPM, and there are a lot of fans around these boards that believe AOTC is the second best film of the saga, behind only ESB. Not that it means much, but just an observation.

[Doc Milo]

Everyone criticizes the script -- especially the love story. Agreed, there were some clunkers on the dialogue side, but the story itself, if viewed how I believe it is supposed to be viewed, is very good for what it is setting up.

If you view this "love story" (and I use those words loosely, because what I believe we have is not a "love story" but the set-up for a tragedy) as the perfect romance, then you are going to have problems with it.

But I submit to you what we have is not a love story. It is the set-up to a tragedy. Let us examine the characterization we have seen. Anakin: Anakin meets a girl when he is nine, knows her for what? A week? And becomes so obsessed with her that he can't get her out of his thoughts for ten years. When he meets her again, he is convinced he is totally in love with her. But, is he in love with her? Or is he just infatuated to the point of obsession? I submit that his character suggests the latter. Anakin does not really, truly love Padme. He can't. He barely even knows her. He can't be anymore in love with her than someone who meets a celebrity once, is totally taken with her beauty, and obsessively seeks out any information through the press and gossip pages about her. They know nothing about the person. How can they really, truly be in love with them? Attracted? Yes. Infatuated? Yes. But in love? I don't think so. Does Anakin care for Padme? Yes. No doubts. But I suggest what he feels is not true love -- it's infatuation and attraction to the point of obsession.

And Padme: I suggest that she can't possibly be "truly, deeply in love" with Anakin, either. From the novelization we learn about Padme's family, especially her sister, putting the thoughts in Pame's mind about how she has sacrificed her own life to politics and public service. Padme hears the "biological clock" ticking. And, as she's having these thoughts, in comes Anakin. Tall, dark, handsome. Someone she knew when she was younger. Someone who has impressed her with how much he has grown over that time. They are thrust into a situation that has their emotions running high. She is faced with death almost daily. What her sister has told her is in the forefront of her mind. Does she want to die without experiencing love? Does she want to die without children? Is her political legacy enough to leave behind? And here is Anakin. Does Padme care for Anakin? Yes, definitely. She has since she was fourteen. But does she "truly, deeply" love him? I think she confuses what she is really feeling with love. Both Anakin and Padme think they are in love with each other. But I don't think they are experiencing true love.

And I don't think the point of the story is to portray the perfect romance. It is a tragedy in the making. Think Romeo and Julliet. People like to point to it as the perfect love story. But it is not. It's not a love story at all. It's a tragedy. They fall in "love at first sight." Something, I submit, does not really occur. People can believe they are in love at first sight due to strong attraction. And after they get to know each other, they fall in love, truly and deeply, I have no doubts about that. But the love at first sight portion is not where love began, even if they believe it has. Romeo and Julliet experience this. They want to be together even though it is forbidden (something present in AotC as well) and the story focuses on the situations and people keeping them apart, until the tragic end. It is not a love story. It is a tragedy. The focus is never on developing their love. It is on developing the tragedy that occurs because of their need to be with each other.

The same is going on in AotC. The story is not a love story. It is a tragedy in the making. It is focusing not on their love, or the development of their love, but it is setting up and developing the portions of the story that are keeping them apart. First, the forbidden nature of their relationship, and their own apprehensions about breaking those laws that govern the Jedi and attachments; the politics; the situation in the galaxy. And, I submit, even Anakin's own obssessive personality. The fact that they are not truly in love, but only believe they are. And, of course, ultimately, Anakin's darkness. Sure, Padme overlooks that in AotC, but those little things, his anger, and obssessiveness, and the memory of what he told her he did to the Tuskens . . . will develop into fear of her husband. Soon she will not be able to overlook it. And the tragedy will hit full-force.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Great explanation Doc, and I agree with you completely about the Romeo Jullet thing, I have found similarities between the two and in both instances they are Star Crossed lovers, fate was not alligned for either couple, though in a way I guess it was as Romeo and Jullet's deaths ends the feuding of the Montague's and the Capulets and Anakin and Padme's romance produces the two seeds of the rebellion and evenutally redemtion for their Father.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Dont ask my wife's opinion of AOTC, for you will get a 10 minute tirade. While I'm okay with AOTC, she loathes it.

[Ryla Relvinian]

Doc, I totally agree with you... Unfortunately, when it takes you ten minutes to explain two lines of dialogue to a non-rabid fan, I think that classifies as a bad script. Yes, it was a setup for a tragedy, and yes, they are star-crossed lovers. HOWEVER: Hayden, while he was great in life as a house and higher ground, didn't shine at all in aotc. Natalie acts like keanu reeves *without* talent. Admit it, the script sucked. GL himself admits that he isn't a good writer, and that his movies should be looked more at the visuals and the score than the dialogue. Mark, I agree with your wife. I'll forever have a picture of SW as being the original trilogy, and treat the prequels as EU.

[Figrin D'an]

Don't get me wrong, for you know that I have the utmost respect for many, many people on around these forums... but, I tend to believe that anyone who would divulge a 10-minute tirade on "Why Movie-X is the crappiest thing ever put on film" had expectations far too high from the outset and really has done nothing but waste his/her own time and unnecessarily increased his/her stress levels.

I'll be the first to admit that AOTC has problems. I agree that the script is pretty clunky in spots, and some of the acting is really wooden throughout the film (a function more of GL's lack of direction than actual acting ability, IMO). I just don't think that AOTC, or TPM, are nearly as bad as some people believe. It's just because of the ridiculous 'holy pedestal of greatness' upon which we place the original trilogy that a skewed point of view on the latest additions to the story exists. I love the original trilogy... I think its a wonderful story with some fabulous paralleled themes from world mythology... but a healthy measure of calmed perspective is a good thing when looking at old vs. new.


Anyway... my half-assed opinion. Shred as you see fit. I'll go watch the films, enjoy and be happy...

[Ryla Relvinian]

Hm, I meant that when my friends (non-rabid fans) and I went and saw the movie, they would ask me things that we take for granted knowing, things like, "Why is luke kissing the queen?" and stuff like that, not like a ten minute tirade. What I guess I was trying to say is that the plot doesn't explain itself, doesn't stand on it's own, and that's what I don't like.

[Doc Milo]

The plot is not meant to stand on its own.

The original trilogy plots (aside from ANH for the reason that Lucas didn't know if he'd be allowed/able to finish the saga) don't stand on their own. If you watch ESB with the same expectation of a plot that stands on its own, you'll be sorely disappointed. The entire film is a second act. It is all middle. You need to know what happened in ANH in order to understand important plot points in ESB, and you need to see RotJ for ESB's conclusion.

Face it, people are judging these prequels in a manner not meant to be judged. These prequels, starting with TPM, were not meant to be judged as stand-alone movies. They are 1/6th of a saga.

Not to be rude, but if your "non-rabid" friends are wondering why "Luke is kissing the Queen" in AotC, they need to pay more attention and realize that that isn't Luke. If they watch the story that is being portrayed from episode i thru episode vi, the plot makes perfect sense and explains itself. That is the way it is meant to be judged. As a whole. These are not six separate stories, and they are not meant to be viewed as separate stories. If you were to judge the legitimacy of the love story of "Romeo and Juliett" after reading only the first act of the play, you would come to the same conclusion.

Does the script have some dialogue problems? Yes. So does every single SW movie. Why judge these two differently than the OT? The problem is, for many people, the OT was what got them into SW, and they see any criticism of them as blasphemous, and they hold those movies on such a high pedestal that they refuse to see that the same criticisms leveled at the prequels are just as legitimate criticisms of the OT.

[Ryla Relvinian]

I agree with you there, my friends do need to pay more attention. :lol

However, I don't agree with you with the comparison between shakestick's R&J... R&J *does* stand on it's own after reading the first act... You read it and want to read more, you are introduced to real, human characters who start off with a gang war, a long-standing feud between houses and a guy who is in love with a woman who is sworn to chastity. The first act of R&J is not just a setup for the downfal, it is more. It is the full, complete picture of the society, the implications for romance, and the nature of the two houses.

Not to say that I didn't like TPM or AOTC, becuase I did like them, but they are just not the same level of complete-ness as I would have liked to see in a movie. Just my opinion, of course, but I think that GL doesn't compare to Shakespeare in any writing world I've visited. Of course the movies are part of a series, but they should be able to be at least coherantly and realistically written... The same thing is true about the OT as well, except the dialogue is so much more realistic and believable.

BTW this isn't a criticism of you as a person, I'm just trying to clarify my point. :]

[Figrin D'an]

My comment was guided more towards Marcus' post... I probably should have clarified that with a quotation...

I agree that GL is not a very good dialogue writer, but that is evident throughout the entire Star Wars saga, not just the prequels. Again, it all goes back to that 'pedestal' view of the original trilogy. Because of that, nothing will live up to those three films in the minds of some people. So many pre-conceived notions have really fogged the view of many regarding these new films.

It's too bad really... deep down, it's a pretty darn good story.

[JMK]

The greatest story ever as far as I'm concerned!

[Jedieb]

This is a good time to go back and take a second look at AOTC. Now that the hype has died down and it's had some time to sit on the shelf. I still have to say that AOTC was an enjoyable SW movie. I still rank it behind Empire and ANH. Were there problems? Yes, as there have been with ALL SW movies. As bad as some of the dialogue was, was it any worse than some of the lines in ROTJ or TPM? Am I the only one that heard people giggling during the ROTJ:SE release whenever Vader talked about "feeling" Luke? By the time the Emperor was taunting Luke with his saber "Ah, you want this..." it seemed to many in the audience that he was coming on to Luke. Bottom line, I liked it more than TPM and I thought it was a solid movie overall. I gave up the expectation that the prequels were going to be 16 years better than the OT a LOOOONNNNNGGGG time ago.

Romance
I would argue that AOTC was an attempt at a romance, and not a tragedy like Romeo and Juliet. It just that for several reasons, the romance didn't play as well as it could. I would argue that the characters DO love each other. They just happen to be in the first stages of love. Before you reach the 'Attachment' phase of love, you have the heat and passion that first attracts you to your mate. That's where Padme and Anakin are right now. I think they BOTH are truly and deeply in love with each other. They'll just never get to be that old couple that celebrates their 50th wedding anniversary. Keep in mind that this love story has been told rather awkwardly and with a 12 year old audience in mind. By comparison, the love story in Moulin Rouge was MUCH more effective IMO. Even though that ended in tragedy, it was still a love story at heart. This is after all MOVIE LOVE we're talking about. It's not meant to reflect love in the real world, but in a fictional one. In a fantasy like SW, it's your basic boy/knight meets princess/queen and falls in love. It's an OLD story told with incredible effects. It's just that the acting and the dialogue don't always match the effects.

[Doc Milo]

Just my opinion, of course, but I think that GL doesn't compare to Shakespeare in any writing world I've visited.

I never meant to compare the writing ability of Shakespeare and Lucas. There is no comparison. My only objective in bringing up Romeo and Juliet was to show that the romance of Padme and Anakin is more akin to that than a typical love story that develops over time. The focus is on the things that keep them apart, and developing that nature of the story than it is on developing the love. I was making the comparison that, just like Romeo and Juliet isn't a love story, Padme and Anakin isn't either. Just like R&J's first act sets up the tragedy, shows us the society and the situations that exist that will keep them apart, so does A&P's story.

I wholeheartedly agree that R&J is written better, and achieves this goal much better.

But I still think, looking at it as a tragedy with a romance in it (both R&J and Padme/Anakin) rather than a romance that ends in tragedy is the more proper way to look at it. The focus of the story is weighed more heavily not on the development of their love but on the development of the things that will eventually lead to their downfall. That makes it a tragedy, not a love story.

On to Jedieb's comments:

I don't know about them both really being in love with each other. Maybe they are, maybe their not. But I do believe that their feelings for each other -- especially Anakin's toward Padme is based in obsession. Yes, they are attracted to each other; yes they are infatuated with each other; yes, they care for each other; and yes, maybe these feelings will eventually grow to that undying love. But I'm not so convinced that we are seeing two people that are right now, as of this moment, totally and deeply in love.

But I don't think the story depends on whether or not their love in convincing. All that matters is that their attraction, infatuation, caring, and need to be with one another is convincing for the story to work.

It is more tragedy, IMO, than romance. Because the elements of their relationship that have been focused on become elements that lead to Anakin's downfall, and eventually their own downfall. The focus of the story is on the tragedy of their love, the forbidden-ness of their love, not on developing their love.

[Ryla Relvinian]

Doc, I understand now and agree with you...

Of course, on a larger scale, the whole story isn't about Anakin, isn't about Luke, isn't about Padme, or Obi-Wan, or Yoda, or anyone else.... It's about Palpatine. Who he uses for his own gain, how he sets up things that make himself look better, how he takes control through secrecy. So really, the love story is just another fragment of a greater story...

[Jedi Master Carr]

First off Doc you are great at explaning everything about SW, I think you do a better job at than any of us here really can. Okay as far as the film I have to wait for the DVD but I think it is my second favorite SW movie after TESB at this moment, viewing it a few times on DVD will clarify that for me. Also as far as comparing SW to Shakespear, I think in overall scale SW is similar to Shakespear Works, story, plot these things, I think Shakespear was a lot better with dialogue no question there but Lucas is very good with plot and storytelling but to me all the SW movies have bad dialogue and I actually like it, stuff like, "Laugh it up Fuzzball" and " I don't know where you get your dilousions, laserbrain, neither line is great dialouge really, most would call it lousy but I love it there are a lot of lines like that in all the movies its just part of the SW lore.

[Kar'h'tzen Shaed]

I am a rabid fan of the movie. Go back to jerk-land, jerks!

Seriously, though, the lines had weak writing that detracted from the movie a few times. "I wish I could wish..." being the most noticeable one, I guess. But when comparing the romances of Padme+Anakin and Leia+Han, try to keep in mind that they are completely different characters (well, Leia and Padme aren't that far apart) in completely different circumstances. I would agree that Ford and Fisher played their roles with more feeling (okay... a LOT more), but not that they always had better lines. Basically, I don't like Portman's performance - in either movie. Sure, she's pretty, woo. But she's way too deadpan in her acting for me to believe she's really been dying little bit, on the inside, every day. :p

[Doc Milo]

Oh, writing-wise, I don't think "I wish I could wish" is as bad as the kiss/scar line. Sure, it's repetitive, but I thought it was delivered well enough not to detract from the scene.

But the "I'm haunted by the kiss you should never have given me . . . hoping that kiss will not become a scar . . ."

That's a mixed metaphor right there, and one that had me cringing when I first heard it. Some mixed-metaphors I don't notice right away, but this one....

First, the kiss is "haunting him" so it's being compared to a ghost, a spirit, constantly haunting him. Then, he's hoping the kiss does not become a scar -- now it's a wound that he hopes will heal without leaving a scar. The two don't flow together.... Maybe: "I'm pained by the kiss you should never have given me . . . hoping that kiss will not become a scar . . . "

Doesn't that sound a little better?

[JMK]

It does Doc.

This line doesn't sit well with me either:
"You're going to pay for all the Jedi you killed today Dooku".
The line reminds me of this exchange between Shooter McGavin and Happy Gilmore:
Shooter McGavin: Stay out of my way, or you'll pay. Listen to what I say.
Happy Gilmore: Yeah, why don't I go eat some hay. I can make things out of clay, or lay by the bay, I just may. Whaddya say?

Too much needless rhyming. :\

[Jedieb]

I actually liked that line. I thought it was perfect for Anakin. It set up his foolish and reckless charge quite well. But, comparing it with classic Adam Sandler dialogue is unfair. I mean, who CAN hold their ground against Sandler? :rolleyes

Remember that other great line about what McGavin eats for breakfast? Silly movie, but damn if it didn't have parts that made you laugh out loud. The Barker fight is alone worth the price of admission.
"By the way, who won that fight?" :lol

[JMK]

I loved Anakin's reckless charge, but I think the line would have sounded much better if the word "today" had been left out.

"You're going to pay for all the Jedi you've killed Dooku..."
Dooku doesn't need to be reminded of when he did it, heck, it had only been minutes earlier when they were in the arena...

[Jedi Master Carr]

I really didn't have a problem with that line but that was just me. And Jedieb about the Barker fight, Bob won, which made it even more hilarious. I loved the line he gave to Barker, "The Price is wrong Bob."

[Jedieb]

I know Bob won JMC, I was quoting Shooter. Remember when they meet and Happy gets suspended? That's what Shooter says to Happy to rag on him.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Sorry, I didn't realize you were quoting from the movie. I agree with you that scene is hilarious. I also like Ben Stiller in there he is running a sweat shop out of the Nursing home that Happy's grandmother is at those scenes are hilarious.

[JMK]

Ben Stiller with the Handlebar mustache is priceless. Everyone in that movie is perfectly cast. It took me & my friend about 3 hours to watch Happy Gilmore in its entirety the first time because we were laughing so much!:lol