An extremely interesting debate

[Daren Trevelan]

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/248ipzbt.asp

I found this while surfing for star wars maps, lol.

[Admiral Lebron]

I saw that a while ago. It's a good article.

[Marcus Telcontar]

CORUSCANT -- Presiding over a memorial service commemorating the victims of the attack on the Death Star, the Emperor declared that while recent victories over the Rebel Alliance were "encouraging, the War on Terror is not over yet."

"We will continue to fight these terrorists, and the rogue governments who harbor them, until the universe is safe, once and for all, and the security of the Neo-New Cosmik Order ensured."

It was one year ago today that the Death Star, perhaps the greatest symbol of the Empire's might, was destroyed in an attack by fanatic Rebels, who used small, single-person crafts to infiltrate seemingly impenetrable defenses. Thousands of mourners were on hand to remember and pay tribute to the victims and their families.

"We lost our innocence that day," reflected one mourner. "I guess we thought we were immune from the kind of violence that happens in other galaxies. We were wrong."

"I lost hundreds of buddies that day," said one teary-eyed Stormtrooper. "Guys whose only crime was trying make the Universe a safer place."

Although the day was colored by sadness, the mourners found some relief in the news of a decisive victory over the Rebels.

In an attack led by Darth Vader, Empire forces were able to rout hundreds of Rebels from a network of caves underneath the surface of the planet Hoth. "We're not sure we got them all," says a Vader spokesman. "There are a lot of places to hide in those caves. But we've delivered powerful blow to the terrorist's infrastructure, that's for sure. Today, the Empire has struck back."

Initial reports are unclear as to the fate of Luke Skywalker, a hero among the Rebels, who is rumored to have delivered the fatal blow to the Death Star. Skywalker, a former desert-dweller from the planet Tattooine, became a part of the Rebellion after family members were killed. Skywalker was trained by a militant wing of the Rebels, known as "Jedi Knights." Fanatical in their religious beliefs, the Jedi Knights claim to derive their power from the mystical "Force."

It's believed that Skywalker was specifically trained by infamous terrorist O bin Wankanobi. Wankanobi, occasionally called "Ben" and easily recognized by his bearded visage and long, flowing robes, achieved near-martyr status among the Rebels after his death last year during a spy mission. His more fervent followers believe that Wankanobi lives on within them today, some even claiming to hear his voice during times of duress.

The attack on the Death Star came shortly after the Empire's destruction of Alderstaan, a planet whose government was known to harbor terrorists. Responding to criticism over the total annihilation of the planet, Vader stated, "There is no middle ground in the War on Terror. Those who harbor terrorists are terrorists themselves. Alderaan was issued ample warning. The fight for continuing Freedom is often burdened by terrible cost."

The cost of this war can still be seen today in the continuing efforts to build a coalition government on Tattooine. Longstanding animosities among the planets various ethnic groups, including the Jawas, Tusken Raiders and scattered human settlers, have been an impediment to the peace process. The Empire continues to maintain a small peace keeping force until a provisional government is finally in place.

Much of the difficulty in fighting the Rebel forces stems from their lack of a central organizing structure. "They don't play by the traditional rules of war," complained one spokesman. "They come in all shapes and sizes, united only by their single-minded desire to destroy the Empire before it destroys them."

The Emperor closed his comments today by stating that "the cowardly attack on the Death Star left a deep scar on the Empire. However, we will not stop fighting until every last evildoer has been brought to justice." He paused for several moments, wiping away a tear and then added with determination, "We will never forget."

"I wish we could all just get along," said one of the mourners. "But it's hard to offer an olive branch to a cult of religious fanatics whose main tool is violence and who insist on calling us the Dark Side."

[Chase Starwalker]

aye, aye - i'll take the empire as well!

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

That sure puts things in prespective

[Azhure Darkstone]

only fools go out on wars to kill other fools.

Thats a qoute I once heard and it struck me maybe not as completely correct but it has a bit of turth in it. In the end everyone loses somehow.
In every side there are people who are ignorant of what the higher powers in their group/ country are doing and are the ones who get punished.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Somedays I just wish the haters and warmongers were all crammed into a stadium with clubs. They can then go kill each other and leave everyone who simply wants to live peacefully, to do so

[Dr. Strangelove]

vhat! Varmongers iz bad?!? Var iz terrible I must say, but, if the var iz justified, like, gaining indepeendence, thenz itz ok in mie book...
Evan God almighty sent people to Var, and it vas total Var! slaughtering Men, Vomen, babies and evan the animalz!!! Vhen the ruler did bad, God struck the peoplez, notz just the rular

So, if you still insizt on giving varmongers giants clubs, then yous better think about who you goings to give em too

[Oriadin]

This is a very interesting debate indeed. Looking at whats been written its easy enough to say that the Empire is in actual fact the good side.

But, as with everything there are two sides to every story. Lets not forget that it was the Emperor that started the whole war. He formed the seperatists in order for himself to produce a grand army. He effectivly started the war single handedly playing both sides. The seperatist movement was an excuse to put the galaxy under the thumb and be under the rule of one being. Everyone should have a voice and the only way to do this is to have the senate.

All through history, right from the very begining the right, and the will to be free has remained. People will never stand for others telling them what they can and cant do. What do we have if we dont have freedom? I always relate the Star Wars story to the Romans. The Roman empire was in control of most of Europe. As a race they were extreamly intelligent and brought order to the places they took control over. They even brought people things like roads and central heating plus other things. At the end of the day people do not like to be rulled over so they fought back and won thier freedom.

Parliments, senates, democracies and whatever anyone else wants to call it may not always work but the people have the power. They have the vote at the end of the day and for me that is far better than a dictatorship.

Im with the rebels.

[Saharia]

lets take Nazi Germany for example.
Fear made people shut up, those who did not agree. Hitler brainwashed the children so parents feared their own offspring would turn them in. Yes, fear is a very strong tool, mixed with propaganda. Some do yes, but it takes someone to come out of the woodwork first before the rest do.

people have the power, and people can freely and unknowingly give thier power away before they even realize it and it is too late. There will be times people will fight back but that can take a very very long time and the damage is usually already done.

people always fight back yes, but there is always a price to pay before hand, and that is what makes war so horrible.
I dont agree with war, in fact I hate it. But because of warmongers it has to be made, because of warmongers war comes about.

Im not with either. if I had to choose it would probably depend on what circumstance I'm in, and who I'm allied with or who I care about. Theres no easy answer with this one.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Geez Stranelove, what language did you just type in? I didnt understand word :huh

I guess what I think is that I have no real faith in democracy. You have a bunch of clods in power and none of them are really interested in the common good. Personally, the best governemt is a Monachy, but geez, you better hope the person who rules is not a halfwit.

That probaly where democracies have the advantage - they have a higher probability of stopping looines getting into power. However, Hitler was elected Chancellor and I think it was a resonably fair election. Sometimes loonies will get to leadership if the timing is wrong.

I always think the men who should rule truly dont want to and the ones that do genuinely are not capable of it. It's a catch 22.

I also think that as governemetn get bigger, they stagnate and do less with more resources. A small highly powerful group will get things done much faster and better if done right, but what are the chances of that?

Geez, aint a I cynical bugger?

[Oriadin]

I agree with some of what your saying. The fact that 'You have a bunch of clods in power and none of them are really interested in the common good' is a fair point to make.

If you dont have a democracy though, if a loony becomes top dog he is going to be there for a very long time. In a democracy, if you get an idiot in, chances are they wont be there all that long. Only problem is one idiot is usually followed by another!

We, as a race have not really come up with a suitable solution to please everyone and I doubt we ever will. With a democracy there is some choice. There is more power to the people. The problem is, as Amidala stated, not everyone agrees. With a sole person in charge you are only going to get his views on things. There are no discussions about what might be best, its what that one person thinks is best. That to me is a worrying thought.

[Marcus Telcontar]

The fact is, all man made systems are like us - flawed. Some systems tho, like Communism aint too bad - if they were not run by people. A genuine Republic like Rome had before it corrupted might be okay too. The solution in the end is that there isnt one. Any system run by people will be open to abuse.

[Oriadin]

ACTION: Taps head while thinking.

A system run by people has got to be better than one by gungans!

Prime Minister Jar Jar (shudders at the thought)

[Khan Surak]

heh, while I was reading this thread, the Imperial March began playing on my winamp playlist.

Palpatine was slightly obsessed with super-weapons, but I still think the main reason they built the DS was to quell the meager resistance that was popping up around the galaxy through Tarkin's doctrine: Rule through fear of force, rather than force itself. The Empire did what it had to do, they just did it in a very ineffective way. The Rebels also did what they had to do. The Galaxy being a dictatorship, they couldn't just go up and ask Palpatine to stop doing what he was doing. Still, their major actions would not have been tolerated were it to have happened in an arena where the majority of rebel groups are looked upon with disdain.

I side with the Galactic Empire.

[Oriadin]

Yeah but Palpatine was the one that began the resistance in the first place! His plan was to begin a seperatist movement in order to allow him to build a huge army, capable of defeating these upstarts. He wanted war, and thats exactly what he got.

It was the rebels that fought back and gave freedom to the galaxy.

[Khan Surak]

He wanted power and order, and the only way he could get that in a crumbling government with as much bureaucracy as that was through war. Well, I suppose he also could've been patient and campaigned to become Chancellor in the next election, but he wanted himself to look like a hero and it was all very shrewdly planned out.

[Oriadin]

A hero? I dont think so...

In exchange for power and HIS order, he went on and killed millions of innocent people. People have a right to freedom, not to be rulled over. A democracy at least gives people some choice. If you disagree with a democracy then its ok, everyones entitled to thier opinion. If you disagree with a dictatorship, you die. I know which I prefer.

[Khendon Sevon]

*mumbles something about the vong never would've been able to handle the Empire*

[imported_QuiGonJ]

My Imperial in SWG uses logic bout like that standard article to justify being in the Empire.

And Marcus, did you write that anti-American thing? I get the pseudo-parallels with September 11th, but it's making me ill just reading that.

The WTC didn't go hurt to anyone in Al-Qaida or Afghanistan first. The WTC was a bombing target prior, back in '93, and the US government did some sill retaliation that didn't make the news for it, with long range missiles. The Pentagon makes a little sense, but...

on the SW side, Luke showed up in a fighter marked with the Rebellion colors, he didn't steal a loaded civilian transport to crash into it and destroy it. That was cowardly, and wrong.

[Oriadin]

Im sorry, but ive got no idea what youve just said there QuiGonJ. Sure youve posted under the right topic?

[Khendon Sevon]

I understand what he's trying to say, and actually agree it comes out that way. But I don't feel that anyone on this board could be so inconsiderate for those who have strong emotions towards the subject so I believe we're just reading too much into it.

Therefore I say we simply ignore what out minds are telling us and cut off that secondary meaning from our thoughts.

[imported_QuiGonJ]

It comes across as a parody of the US after September 11th, but I will defer to Khendon's interpretation. :)

[Sanis Prent]

Originally posted by Marcus Q'Dunn
Geez Stranelove, what language did you just type in? I didnt understand word :huh

Uncultured barbarian!

[Sean Piett]

I haven't read the whole post, but I scanned. Someone said Hitler was elected chancellor. Well, I heard that someone with a higher position than chancellor gave the post to Hitler without an election. Then that higher up either stepped down or died, leaving Hitler next in line. Correct me if I'm wrong, and forgive me if someone already said this.

[Mr Wednesdaydale]

Hindenberg appointed him as Chancellor...and when the next election came around, Hitler's stormtroopers ensured a landslide in his favor.


...I think :)

[Marcus Telcontar]

The point is that Hitler came to power by resonably democratic means. His election victory wasnt all that rigged, he was at that point genuinely popular and he had the ideas to get a still struggling Germany back on it;s feet. Remember, he was a very charismatic man and Germany did suffer quite badly during the depression. They were ready for someone with his message and hungry men and women, with no jobs and no future dont listen to the usual political dribble. They wanted answers and Hitler gave them. The average German was angry at the rest of the world and angry at what they saw as the betrayl of it's own goverment at the end of WWI.

Hitler came and declared he would give Germans jobs and he would put right the percieved injustice that the Germans had. And when he became Chancellor in 1933, he proved he wasnt all talk, he acted.

Okay, we now know what that lead to. But the point is, deserate people take desperate measures. Germany saw no way out of it's poverty and it took the chance Hitler offered.

Of course, the Allies didnt make the same mistake the second time around.They helped rebuild and make Germany prosper. The marshall Plan was brilliant and it gave us the Europe we have today, which you have to say, it would be incredulous to think another huge war could break out there.

The lesson unleant was that a hungry man will do anything, but a prosperous one will be content.

[Sean Piett]

Did some research, have you?

It's pretty standard for someone who's already been in office to be re-elected. The point stands that he was given the position originally, and used that power to secure re-election. He basically used his limited power to make laws saying that he couldn't be pulled from office, which is by no means kosher. From what I've heard, he was horribly slaughtered in his early attempts at office by larger parties, and didn't get decent ratings until after he was given a position out of fear/good will. So... There's no way to know for a fact how honest the votes really were. Though if the Germans didn't like Hitler off the bat, they certainly learned to

:x

[Marcus Telcontar]

He was given the role originally because he was seen to be the safe option when the governemt of the day collapsed under the pressure of the Depression and German inflation. In 1934, he was re-elected resonably fairly. Not totally of course, but the point was, he won in a resonably democratic way. After that he did pass laws to make himself a dictactor, but by then the German people didnt care. They had food, they had jobs and the German economy turned around awfully fast. He gave them what they wanted and in turn gave him what he wanted.

The real lesson Hitler is that even in a democracy, tyrants can come at the wrong time and be voted in. Once the Germans saw that they had a leader who was willing to defy France and Britain, who were much hated, they gave their support, their youth and their lives. Hitler wasnt actually in it for the power, he geniunely believed in his cause and he was willing to do anything to achieve his aims. He wanted to humble Britain and France and he wanted Germany to rule as he believed it should have after WWI and he wanted to get back at those he believed betreayed the Reich. Quite a few parallels can be drawn between Hitler and Palpatine in fact. Both believed in their cause. Both were willing to do anything to achieve their aims.

One of the things that is becoming clearer is that Palpatine genuinely thought the Republic needed to be swept aside, not for his own aims but because it was corrupt and it had failed. There was a fair bit of truth in that, but his methods leave a lot to be desired.

[Darth Viscera]

No, the votes really were honest. What many people fail to realize is how different the situation was from the 1920's to the 1930's.

1920's-You have a defeated government, but the people are still reasonably fine. Currency changes by the day, so the ride on the trolley that may cost you 50 billion weimar deutschmarks today will cost you 100 billion weimar deutschmarks tomorrow. That's fine, because people have jobs and are paid those billions of deutschmarks. Even if the treasury is depleted, the average Fritz still has money in his pockets...errr...wheelbarrow. The time is not yet ripe for political revolution. The people are in diar straights, yes, but not enough so. He tries to take power in 1923 by storming the main govt. building in Bavaria, and ~20 of his party stalwarts die in the attempt, and he's put in jail for 9 months. The government is broke, not the people.

early 1930s-The Government has now paid off most of its reparations to France, but the stock market has crashed. Bourgeouis men and women in fine suites in London, Berlin, France and New York are picking up nearly spent cigarettes from the street and trying to smoke the butts. Unemployment. If you do have a job, you won't be able to hold it. However, a ride on that trolley costs you 10 pfennig, not 100 billion deutschmarks. The people are broke, not the government. The time is right for Hitler's ascent.

[Sean Piett]

Can't say I wasn't waiting for him to post.

[Daren Trevelan]

Personally if you look at it the Empire probably had a better political structure, meanwhile the Republic or Rebellion had a better military structure. No I'm not saying Rebels are better than Imperials at strategy and tactics, I'm saying the Empire had some bad leaders, and the Rebellion had some moral leaders.

Grand Moff Tarkin was your every day Colonel Tabbington. Did you notice that after ANH not a single terror strike occured? Everything had a military purpose. However as is seen in EU the warlords committed their own atrocities, hence the name warlords.

The Republic had a very good military structure, with tacticians who weren't as great as the Empire's, but could win the people's support. This was seen with Grand Admiral Thrawn, he won the support of the people, very rarely did he need to force someone through fear and that is where many power hungry humans had their issues.

However, the Republic in the end turned out just as evil as the Empire ever was. Borsk Fey'lya hid the Caamas Documents, the senate simply refused to condone the war against the Yuuzhan Vong until they hit Hutt Space, and then they backed Bothawui, everyone was ME ME ME ME. So instead of one power hungry idiot you had a thousand power hungry idiots with a tiny fleet trying to distribute it to thousands of planets.

The emperor would have simply said, "We cannot tolerate them, crush them." And thus bye bye Yuuzhan Vong, no debates, no questions.

So it really is a matter of circumstance in the end. And a matter of, as a civilian, who do you want deciding your fate?

[Khendon Sevon]

I agree with Telan.

I can't say it better than he did.

[Lord Gue]

So it really is a matter of circumstance in the end. And a matter of, as a civilian, who do you want deciding your fate?

Trotsky

[Sanis Prent]

A corpse rotting in Mexico? He'd make a GREAT leader :rolleyes

[Lord Gue]

why not, your following the ideas of a corpse yourself...

[Sanis Prent]

Ideas carried on by people who are actually alive.

[Darth Viscera]

Speaking of leaders, I firmly believe that the Shaw was a great leader who was unfortunate in that he led his country during a time of religious rebelliousness. Every move he made, he was criticized by the Muslim clerics, who each toted their own private armies of foreigners and arabs, guys who were pissed off at Israel. I've seen the Shaw's son a couple of times because he lives just off in Potomac, and he goes to Moby Dick just like all the other Iranians in Maryland and orders kabob-e-chengeh, just like me. He's one kosher cat. Now if we could send him over with a double handful of rifle-totin' CIA agents, we could undermine the sucktastic ayatollah and place a real man in power in Iran. A man who likes his chengeh, and is one heck of a kosher cat. Say, he'd get that country back on the trolley in no time, and within a week the KFC would open back up, and people would drink coca-cola again, and women wouldn't have to get nose jobs so often because the only part of their body which shows is their nose.