The Divine Secrets of the Ya Ya Sisterhood... [Archive]

JonathanLB

Jul 11th, 2002, 08:09:05 PM

WTF are you talking about?! MIB2 is good entertainment, a fun movie, great for a few laughs, and infinitely forgettable once you walk out of the theater. It's a solid three star movie.

Ya-Ya Sisterhood is VERY NEARLY the worst movie of the entire year and I've seen about 75 different movies this year. The ONLY movie worse than Ya-Ya STUPIDHOOD is The Sweetest Thing.

Ya-Ya is so painful that I wanted to walk out of the theater after every cringe-worthy line. I cannot believe how worthless, pitiful, and stupid that movie truly was. I expected it was going to be one of the worst films of the year and what I saw was one of the worst films ever, not just of this year.

I thought Lilo and Stitch and Like Mike would both suck, but both ended up being 3 star films. No such luck with Ya-Ya Idiocy though.

Charley

Jul 11th, 2002, 08:09:46 PM

Neither are that good

Ya Ya is alot like Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. They both rationalize very very insane people. I could appreciate it for that much. I never said it was noteworthy, but its better than the abysmally flat humor and the farce that is a romantic effect (hell, this made Anakin and Padme look GOOD) in MIB2.

ReaperFett

Jul 11th, 2002, 08:33:44 PM

Anakin and Padmé (ALT 0233:)) were good :)

Charley

Jul 11th, 2002, 08:46:43 PM

With the exception of a few moments, they were the polar opposite of good. The only part of AotC I cringed at, actually.

JonathanLB

Jul 11th, 2002, 08:51:59 PM

Yeah, ok whatever.

Padme and Anakin were awesome! You need to see the movie a few more times or something dude.

Charley

Jul 11th, 2002, 09:05:16 PM

I've seen the movie 15 times Jon. If it ain't happening now, it ain't gonna ever.

JMK

Jul 11th, 2002, 09:44:01 PM

The only moment between the 2 that really made me cringe was the scene at Padmé's place where Anakin begs her to get with him. The beginning of the scene is terrible IMO. It's deadly silent, they're both in an awkward position and then finally Anakin says something. Like, how long were they just staring at each other before that? It feels like the viewer is a parent and just walked in on their teenage daughter making out with her boyfriend and they're acting as if nothing happened. It's just super weird and I wish I could apologize to them for walking in on them. That scene was definetly strained.

Also her peck on Ani's cheek on the Reek's back was lame too. Of course, a Reek's back is no place for love, but still, her peck was nothing compared to the peck Leia dropped on Luke before swinging over the pit in the death star--and she didn't even love him yet! :lol

Marcus Telcontar

Jul 11th, 2002, 09:47:27 PM

Padme just makes me cringe. Personally, there just simply was not the on screen chemestry to sell me on the "romance" at all

JonathanLB

Jul 11th, 2002, 09:58:31 PM

Natalie Portman is one of the best young actresses around today. I think she is one of the best actresses period.

If you've seen AOTC 15 times and don't get the romance still, you definitely need some help from a veteran SW fan. lol.

"That scene was definetly strained."

Yes, it was. Good observation. Exactly as it was SUPPOSED to be. How many people have trouble understanding this very simple concept? You just explained the scene perfectly and that is EXACTLY what Lucas wanted to do!!! It was meant to seem strained! Their entire romance is strained and overly abrupt. I am sure Obi-Wan would feel exactly the same way. They rushed into love and they don't even really know what it is. The awkward moment of silence is there for a reason. You observe it like you noticed it, but SOMEHOW the maker of the film, the guy who has seen it 100 times, didn't. You act like only you know about this "secret" of the love story and Lucas never even noticed that the scene is awkward. Gee, of COURSE it is awkward! That is exactly how it was constructed.

If all of the love story flowed extremely well and they just seemed like natural lovers, then what the heck would that accomplish? It would look silly! Two people who don't even know each other act like they are in love, comfortably, throughout the movie. That would be absolutely ridiculous. The dialogue between them is always meant to be strained and awkward because that is exactly the nature of their relationship. Anakin's kisses are even awkward. He has never been in love before, never kissed a girl, he wouldn't even know what love is. Yet he thinks he does, and so does Padme, and that is big trouble for the entire galaxy really.

To me that just seems so obvious, I fail to see how any Star Wars fan could not get it after seeing the movie even two times. That's like saying, "Oh my god, the battle on Geonosis seems SO confusing! It's so chaotic!!!" Yes, very good, you just described war. Now here is a sticker. Run off and play. Jesus, lol.

Shawn

Jul 11th, 2002, 10:15:50 PM

The scene that made me cringe was the whole "I don't like sand," thing. :x Ug, that has to be the worst line in any movie, ever. Right up there with some of the stuff from Plan 9. :lol

JonathanLB

Jul 11th, 2002, 10:54:40 PM

Again, you just have to realize the point of that scene. If you don't get it after a substantial number of viewings and me trying to explain it too, though, I guess there is little hope. Here you are on a Star Wars message board making fun of Star Wars. I mean, that absolutely should not be acceptable. It's just very rude behavior in general given that some of us are actually REAL fans here and don't appreciate hearing that.

Anakin comes from a planet that is made up entirely of sand, and some rock (sand is massively corroded rock anyway), so it's only natural he really would HATE sand! He has seen way, way too much of it. I hate rain and I grew up with it pouring down on me way too much, lol. He is just trying to think of something to say, and he comes up with this lame line about how he hates sand and turns that into a way to compliment Padme. That is what REAL teenagers do! They don't have a script that tells them the best possible, sappy line to deliver. That is what I love about Lucas's dialogue; it always feel so real. I know many other people who feel exactly as I do, even my friend Ben who is not a SW fan, but loves the movies. It's supposed to be an awkward line because Anakin obviously just pulled it right out of his butt. It's perfect.

Gav Mortis

Jul 11th, 2002, 11:00:47 PM

Again, you just have to realize the point of that scene. If you don't get it after a substantial number of viewings and me trying to explain it too, though, I guess there is little hope. Here you are on a Star Wars message board making fun of Star Wars. I mean, that absolutely should not be acceptable. It's just very rude behavior in general given that some of us are actually REAL fans here and don't appreciate hearing that.

A real fan would not accept everything at face value as being pure gold. I too don't see anything wrong with the Anakin/Padmé relationship however I am willing to listen to peoples criticizms. There is a line to be drawn between loyalty and sheer arrogance, it would be a terrible world to live in if we all agreed on everything.

Being critical does not equate to making fun of something. Real SW fans want the best and in this case you believe you have recieved the best from the Anakin and Padmé scenes, as do I, but those that think that the love story could've been improved are not only entitled to their opinion but as fans are entitled to want more.

Shawn

Jul 11th, 2002, 11:09:43 PM

It's just very rude behavior in general given that some of us are actually REAL fans here and don't appreciate hearing that. Hi. I'm the person that shelled out over $300 so you can post on this board. I think that qualifies me as a "real" Star Wars fan. :p

I also travelled to the complete opposite side of the country and waited in line for 20 hours to see the midnight showing of AOTC: A big leap from the 8 hours I spent in line for TPM. Which, incidentally, I saw 4 times opening day. Just because I am able to recognize flaws in the series doesn't mean I don't love it.

Anyway...

It wasn't just Anakin's line that bothered me, but the delivery of it. It just didn't sit well with me, and I felt it could have been done better.

Admiral Lebron

Jul 11th, 2002, 11:32:07 PM

Shush! :)

JonathanLB

Jul 12th, 2002, 12:41:51 AM

It is not recognizing flaws, it is pointing out flaws that do not exist. You won't even listen to what I had to say or try to realize WHY the scenes were done that way, you are just absolutely dead-set on calling them bad lines and bad scenes, when in reality if you just paused to examine why they are that way, then you will realize that it is YOU who missed the point, not Lucas who missed the scene!

"it would be a terrible world to live in if we all agreed on everything."

Yes, I agree. I would personally love to go on a Star Wars forum where everyone could agree the SW films ruled all, though. Then MAYBE I could have some intelligent discussions that were not interupted by idiots saying, "OMGWTF JAR JAR SUX D00DS! Lucas has LOST it! The love story blows!" I'd rather have no negativity whatsoever on a Star Wars forum. Just one. If there were ONE forum like that, aka one for the REAL, TRUE fans of the saga, then that would be a wonderful place to discuss the mythology of the movies and learn more about them so we could all enjoy them more. Criticisms of the film do not ultimately lead anywhere but into negativity from both sides about each other or the film or whatever else.

Anyway that's off topic because I realize this is not that type of forum, which is fine, duh, I love this forum. Shawn you do us all a great service, but I'm just saying, instead of criticizing without any possibility of you changing your minds, you could attempt to see why the film was made that way.

It's one thing for someone to say, "Well for me, the love story did not work that well," and it's another when someone says, "The love story just sucked." No actually, it RULED, no ifs, ands or buts, but some people just cannot appreciate it. That's life. It does rule, though, can't change that. It's already made. The film rules in every way imaginable and could have been made differently had Lucas wanted. He didn't want that. That's why it's perfect. The artist had total control over the product and that is why you get such a finely crafted movie.

When I first saw AOTC, like the first few times, there were a few lines that bothered me at first and instead of just immediately jumping to judgment I said, "Well now wait, why exactly is this scene like that? Why do these characters say these lines?" It's better to QUESTION than to criticize immediately. I agree that questioning is always important, just like religious people are supposed to question their faith because it makes it stronger. Well same goes with Star Wars. Once I looked at those scenes again a few times and sat down and really thought about them and studied them, then I was like, "Well yeah, duh, now that makes sense! I get it!" But I didn't get A LOT of stuff after seeing AOTC just once. I mean, there is just so much to absorb that you have to spend some time on it all.

Some people are like, "Dude, you know that line about Tosche's power station in ANH, man that is so corny! It SUX!" No, actually, it's a great line. It is perfectly logical. Just as someone here in the US might be like, "Oh man I was going to go to the mall and pick up some new Michael Jordan sneakers," well in the SW universe, for Luke anyway, going to Tosche's Station to pick up some Power Converters is just what he wants to do. It's like hot-rodding. If you are racing a car, you might need some extra parts, well Tosche's Station has those parts, only for his Incom T-16 Skyhopper, not his Mustang or Celica or WRX or whatever. :)

If you work to understand why each line is written as it is, you not only become a more appreciate Star Wars fan but a more knowledgable one. Every line is there for a reason, otherwise it would have been edited out completely. So understanding each line is important to me, at least, not trying to look for something to criticize.

I just think a more positive mindset is necessary.

Gav Mortis

Jul 12th, 2002, 01:54:55 AM

One thing you are failing to realise is because you believe something is "perfect" doesn't make it perfect at all. To you, yes, but in reality, not neccessarily. Personally, I'd hate it if this was a place were everyone agreed on everything about Star Wars. Diversity and difference of opinion is the key.

You can't say that just because you don't think there are any flaws in AOTC means that there aren't any - that would be plain arrogance. Star Wars films are far from perfect, they are cheesy, flawed with all kinds of problems, bad acting occasionally but that is what makes it Star Wars. The imperfection is neccessary otherwise if it were perfect it wouldn't be interesting enough to hold our attention for so long.

JonathanLB

Jul 12th, 2002, 02:30:13 AM

The Star Wars films are as close to perfection as is humanly possible. THAT is why I love them so much. If they were as flawed as you claim they are, I'd view them as nothing more than entertaining effects showcases with little real value.

The dialogue is fantastic, not corny at all. Nothing in Star Wars is corny and I have no idea how a fan could say otherwise. Absolutely no idea. Ugg, some people just do not get it. The acting is mostly excellent! By all of the leads, anyway. There are a few minor actors who I think could probably use a brush up on their abilities, LOL, but the main ones are fantastic. Ian McDiarmid, Mark Hamill puts in three of the best performances I've ever seen and I've seen a lot of movies, Harrison Ford is always great, Carrie Fischer rocks, Anthony Daniels is classic, Hayden Christensen is just perfect, Natalie is a really great actress, Ewan McGregor is also extremely acclaimed and he's great, and Christopher Lee as Dooku, well obviously.

I am sorry but I wouldn't like Star Wars if the acting were shoddy. That would suck. I couldn't even believe the characters if I saw horrible acting. Thankfully, the acting is top notch throughout the saga.

There are no problems in any Star Wars movies except the occassional technical error that only a die-hard would notice and normal audiences just do not see. Fact is, most of those flaws are perceived, not real. I saw a list of something like 150 errors in ANH. Yeah, well about FIVE of them were real. The rest were just the idiocy of the writer who had no idea what he was talking about. Like someone on ROTJ wrote, "Luke and Leia swing from nothing! The cable is attached to midair." Nope, sorry dumb@$$, nice try, but the cable it clearly attached to the sail barge. You ARE the weakest link. Goodbye.

The Star Wars Saga is as close to flawless as possible. AOTC and TPM, for instance, are basically entirely perfect. Even less technical errors than the OT and maybe Lucas can go back and even fix some of those minor technical errors. It'd be easy.

Marcus Telcontar

Jul 12th, 2002, 07:15:59 AM

To you maybe. Honesty, top notch acting? Wha...? Mate, I sure as hell dont watch Star Wars for the stellar acting, cause it sure aint got it. It sure aint go the the best dialogues either.

Aint the charm of Star Wars the corny stuff? Hacked plot and big bangs, mixed in with some excellent music an dvisuals, special effects and a simple story to tie it all together? And it's just something you can just love and hug? I rather like the Star Wars saga cause it AINT Lord Of The Rings, which so far has beaten TPM and AOTC hands down. That is my opinion, but I suggest that very, very few people can look me straight in the face and say LOTR is not a better movie, almost all round that AOTC. Now compared to ANH, well, that be a different situation.

I class AOTC as a good movie. I would love to see someone less wooden than Portman play Padme and I would love to see Lucas lose the focus on effects and stop with the blue screens. There were times the music grated with the flow of the movie. There were times that if I hadnt read the novel I would have been "Wha....?"

No, AOTC is not as close to humanly perfect as possible, it is far, far from it. And to be honest, thats fine by me. It's supposed to be a hokey Space Opera and that is cool by me.

Charley

Jul 12th, 2002, 07:36:24 AM

As your so-called perfect actress Natalie Portman might say..."We live in a real world....come back to it!"

Jon, the only way the stuff that flies out of your mouth can become absolute truth is if we're in that one episode of the twilight zone, and you're that kid who's taken his town hostage with his omnipotent mind-powers. Since I'm still here (and the TPM Basher board, to boot :lol), this disproves that theory.

Unlike you, I don't discount absolutely the possibility of the converse. Albeit, the chance that all the corny dialogue in Star Wars is just "brilliant" stuff that none of us have "gotten yet" is about the same as the chance that Earth will be invaded on a leap year by the upside-down antimatter universe of Kwaad. But I won't think you the lesser man because of your viewpoints. (Hint, WRITE THAT DOWN, there's a test on it later).

You're looking for a filet mignon....and Star Wars is a cheeseburger. Hell, I like cheeseburgers! They don't cost much, and thus, anybody can appreciate them. Doesn't mean its bad, it means that you don't have to be in the hoi palloi to know when you've got a good thing.

My best advice I can give is not to confuse a good movie with a critically acclaimed one. They are often not one and the same.

JMK

Jul 12th, 2002, 08:43:54 AM

Brilliant! 2 great posts in a row.

Daiquiri Van-Derveld

Jul 12th, 2002, 02:43:58 PM

I like Nat Portman as an actress but Ive not been happy with her as a choice for SW. In EP 1 & 2, Ive found her stiff and not for one moment do I "believe" that shes a Princess or a Senator. What I see on the screen is an actress payed to portray a Princess and a Senator.

I understand that the "love scenes" are between two young people and that the situation is strained. Anakin has had a rough life as a slave and Padme hasnt had much time to be a kid, either. Regardless, thier acting goes beyond stiff and strained. Its just poorly done.

By disagreeing, it doesnt mean that we're not true fans or real fans. It means that we're honest enough to see the flaws and speak of them openly.

ReaperFett

Jul 12th, 2002, 02:46:02 PM

When I watch the Queen talk, she seems stiff. Hmm, royalty, stiff........coincidence? :)

Sanis Prent

Jul 12th, 2002, 03:15:27 PM

then account for when she's not royalty :)

ReaperFett

Jul 12th, 2002, 03:30:11 PM

When you leave school? Will you immediately change? Nope. And she went straght into another position of a similar ilk.

Jedi Master Carr

Jul 12th, 2002, 05:51:56 PM

I liked Natalie in both AOTC and TPM she is very good IMO, of course that is just my opinion, if somebody else has a different opinion that is fine with me and I could care less. As far as the romance I didn't cringe once I liked all of it, it reminded me heavily of Romeo and Julliet which had the same unexplainable romance angle of love at first sight and also the whole star crossed lovers thing. And hey there is only one thing that I did not like about AOTC and that was the fact that they didn't say who Jimmy Smits was. Sure most of the fans knew he was Bail Organa but I would have liked someone say this is Senator Bail Organa from Alderraan that would have made it easier to understand who he was.

Marcus Telcontar

Jul 12th, 2002, 05:54:46 PM

Well, there are all these people that claim she is really talented and does well in other movies. Okay, so why is she a board of wood in Star Wars? I could be the directing style of Lucas does not suit her or she does have a lot of difficulty acting with blue screen. She's just not.... human. Or it could be her voice diesnt convey the emotions well. Her face can, but the voice is too flat and monotone most of the time?

I dunno. Maybe she's just plain the wrong actress for the role.

Jedi Master Carr

Jul 12th, 2002, 10:23:31 PM

You see I disagree I thought she did a good job in the movie, but of course that is just my opinion, it doesn't bother me that you feel that way about her performance, I think she did a good job in the role about as good as Carrie Fisher did in the OT at least.

Nupraptor

Jul 12th, 2002, 11:51:10 PM

Well, there are all these people that claim she is really talented and does well in other moviesI didn't like how she acted in "The Professional". But then, she was much younger then, too.

imported_QuiGonJ

Jul 13th, 2002, 12:31:17 AM

Hmm, agreeing with Jon... not in the "who is a fan" thing, but I honestly, truly enjoyed AOTC.

FotR was good, but I felt it was slow in parts, and that Hugo Weaving, while a fine and talented actor, was painfully miscast. I also saw bits of CGI that made Ani riding the Reek look like Oscar material.

I agree Jedi Master Carr. The romance was meant to be flawed, forced and something we know will end badly. If you were going home to Nat Portman every night, would you have become the Lord of the Sith? I think not.

As for Nat's acting, I thought it was fine.

I dunno about "a hokey Space Opera", but as Stephen King said, who ever has decided that the films are to go against the standards of Truffaut is nuts. Yes, they are popcorn movies, but I find all sorts of themes about responsibility, interdependence, working together, natural harmony. It's in there.

Those are the things that draw me to Star Wars. Not the neato costumes and flashy artwork on the spacecraft, but because I find things in the film that are soothing.

If you work at it, anyone's work can come up flawed. Almost any film will have a bad effects shot, or some line of dialogue that could have gone better, whatever. Sometimes you just have to say, screw that.. I just want to have fun. With AOTC, I left the theater jazzed, and I've enjoyed all the screenings since the first one.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Nupraptor

Jul 13th, 2002, 12:45:58 AM

Almost any film will have a bad effects shot, or some line of dialogue that could have gone better, whatever. Sometimes you just have to say, screw that.. I just want to have fun.Exactly right! I enjoyed AOTC immensely... it's easily right up there with ESB, in my book. But that doesn't mean that it's flawless, IMO.

Sanis Prent

Jul 13th, 2002, 01:01:22 AM

Ditto. AotC's splitting hairs with ESB on the issue of my favorite SW episode. ESB is still my fave, but by the slimmest of all possible margins.

Daiquiri Van-Derveld

Jul 13th, 2002, 03:42:53 AM

ESB is still the best out of all of them! As much as I liked AOTC, I thought the chase with Anakin and Zam over the city was boring. It seemed that GL felt he had to reiterate the fact that Anakin is a good pilot...like we didnt "find" that out in TPM. The best part of the movie imo is from Jango on...thats when it starts hopping! :)

I cant recall the exact name of the movie...something about "the heart" or "Where the Heart Is"....whatever the title, Portman was execellent in that and I enjoyed watching it...twice! :)

Jen

Jul 13th, 2002, 09:07:22 AM

Portman was pretty good in 'Leon' too.

Though apart from TPM and AOTC, that's the only other thing I've seen her in. |I

Jedi Master Carr

Jul 13th, 2002, 11:34:51 AM

Exactly I bet you could find flaws even in the great work of William Shakespear if you really look hard but only someone overly critical would do such a thing. No film, book, play whatever is perfect and I am not sure if anything really comes close and I don't judge books, movies, plays by that standard because its absurd, I judge it either by entertainment value or if I can something out of it like a moral, a lesson or it just tells a compelling story.

JonathanLB

Jul 13th, 2002, 03:09:54 PM

Yeah I could find a lot of errors in Shakespeare, like every single line he ever wrote, for instance. :)

Nah, I like some Shakespeare, but it's very weird writing. He writes like Yoda talks. If I wrote like Shakespeare I'd consider myself a lousy writer. It's a very odd style and not grammatically correct now. It is his own style, though, and his work is famous. I like the themes of his work and I like the stories he told. I don't like the manner in which they were written. Too hard to understand and takes a great deal of studying, line by line, with experts, just to get it. If he wrote it clearly and simply, he could have achieved a better effect so that people could really understand what it is all about. I love the stories, though, that's what mainly counts.

"Ani riding the Reek look like Oscar material."

Do you mean you didn't like that...? I've never heard anyone mention that. The CG there is fantastic. It's the same stuff they used in Starship Troopers, where it looked great too back in 1997. It's much older technology than a lot of the stuff in AOTC, so therefore even more perfected than, say, Watto or Jar Jar. Then again, they also look perfect, but that's because ILM is amazingly good.

The chase on Coruscant BORING?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?! WTF? That is a new one. Did you find the podrace boring? Was the Battle of Hoth boring? Was the Battle of Yavin boring? The speeder bike chase on Endor? Jesus, the chase on Coruscant was one of the most exhilirating scenes in any movie ever, let alone just Star Wars! It is second only to the podrace for film's most awesome sequences. It's just incredible. That city does not even exist and they raced through it for like 10 minutes.

Not to mention you MIGHT want to see the movie again because that scene was totally necessary as part of the plot. There was no way around it. If you wanted to have that taken out somehow, and therefore make the first half of the movie FILLED with way too much exposition and not enough action (I would know, I've seen the movie 35 times and ALL talk, NO action gets boring if you already know what the characters are going to say!), it would be incredibly hard. First, you could not have Obi-Wan jump out the window after that droid. So... that means Anakin and Obi-Wan could not chase Zam. If they cannot chase and find Zam, they cannot have Zam be killed by a KAMINO saberdart that leads Obi-Wan to, duh, Kamino, which means Kenobi never discovers the clones or follows Jango Fett to Geonosis and the entire plot is wiped out.

If you hadn't thought of that, I suggest you do a little more watching and a little less typing. That is the beauty of Star Wars: EVERYTHING exists for a reason. There is no wasted film. That entire sequence was absolutely necessary, also to re-inforce Anakin's arrogance (the way he flies is not safe or effective but reckless and showy; he thinks he is all that, and he may be, but Jedi do not need egos like that).

Jedi Master Carr

Jul 13th, 2002, 03:21:47 PM

About Shakespear sure it looks weird today but that is the way they wrote and talked back then for the most part (though not the commoners I guess) so it really didn't sound wierd to the ones who saw his plays. As far as grammatically well they were meant to be heard not read that is the reason why some people don't understand Shakespear (I blame schools for this) is that they read it and not say out aloud where it makes more sense. I love Shakespear and I think he was the greatest writer ever IMO. Now at least Shakespear is readable, try to read Chaucer or Beoweolf, in the later I doubt you could understand two words, Chaucer is hard to read to I struggled with that in a class I took and hated it because it was so hard to read.

ReaperFett

Jul 13th, 2002, 03:25:53 PM

I like some Shakespeare, but it's very weird writing. He writes like Yoda talks
Nahhhh, Yoda was more understandable :)

Loki Ahmrah

Jul 13th, 2002, 05:14:21 PM

I disagree on the whole Shakespeare points rasied. Even back then no-one talked like that, although would've found it a little easier to understand than people these days without probing the language. I think Shakespearian language is pure gold, it is an art form and only an extremely talented and skilled writer could pull it off today. Although I'd be interested to see what the audience's reaction to a modern day Shakespearian drama as it were - Romeo and Juliet is something along those lines but I wonder how successful the work would be if it wasn't one already known like Baz Lurhman's "Romeo and Juliet."

Marcus Telcontar

Jul 13th, 2002, 05:15:10 PM

That really shows how much the language has changed in 400 years. He wrote for the people of his day - I am sure if some of our writings lived for 400 years, they would seem incomprehesible too cause languages change

Jedi Master Carr

Jul 13th, 2002, 06:38:05 PM

Well that is how people wrote back then both Bacon and Raleigh's writings are similar is was the writing of the day, I think the aristocrats of the day spoke that way as I recall, can't remember if they were trying to copy Shakespear's writing or what. Now the commoners did not speak that way I would admit that, only Chaucer's Cantebury's Tales would be similar to how the people of the day spoke, since the people of the court spoke only French.

Marcus Telcontar

Jul 13th, 2002, 07:21:10 PM

The thing is, we hardly would know hw they spoke now and the only real wayo would be to go there ourselves.

Jedi Master Carr

Jul 13th, 2002, 09:10:19 PM

Well the Cantebury Tales gives some hints, but we have no way to know for certain about accents a lot it his educated guess work. I think its easier to speculate about Shakespear's time because the accents would be closer to modern time.

JonathanLB

Jul 13th, 2002, 09:20:14 PM

I went to quite a good school and I doubt the teachers would just lie to us, so that being said...

I have heard that nobody talked like Shakespeare wrote this plays. NOBODY talked like that. It's a special type of writing, as was already said. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate Shakespeare and I thought Macbeth just rocked, and he is a great writer, assuming he actually wrote his plays, which I kind of doubt, but whatever. Doesn't matter, WHOEVER wrote them was good.

"try to read Chaucer or Beoweolf"

I have read Chaucer and I have read Beowulf. I loved both actually. You thought Beowulf was hard to understand...? I thought it was really pretty easy, but Macbeth was much more challenging. Actually it's not so much that it is HARD to understand, but it's really cool because it's kind of like Star Wars, it's easy enough to understand the general idea, but if you want to know all of the hidden details, you have to study it in depth and you keep on coming up with all of these great symbolisms and whatnot. That's why Shakespeare rocks. Not because of his weird way of writing, but because of the depth of writing and the themes that he tackles are absolutely awesome. There is a lot to be discovered in each of his plays if you really look closer, which is something we did with Macbeth because we spent FREAKIN' FOREVER on it. Our teacher made us read it aloud in class, actually (a good idea) and then we'd discuss it and she'd stop us whenever there was an important point to make. Then we had to write a quite detailed paper on it too. I think I did quite well on that, but I always did.

It got to the point where an "A" was not at all acceptable for me. I had to set the curve or I'd just be steaming pissed off. I set the curve on every paper in every English class I attended from the end of junior year (the junior paper, #1 out of 90) through my senior year, EXCEPT for a satirical paper senior year that I just did ok at. I got like a B+ and I was fine with that because satire is not my thing. Actually it was HILARIOUS because my teacher wrote, "Jon, beautiful writing -- but satire is not your thing =)" I kind of just laughed and thought, "Yup, hehe, that's true it sure isn't." But at least she recognized the great writing, bah, oh well I suck at satire. It was like an action director trying a romance movie and because he's such a good director, he still ends up making a good product, but compared to anyone with any skill in romance movies, his movie kinda blows. I felt that way about my paper. It blew. lol.

Nupraptor

Jul 13th, 2002, 09:23:42 PM

The Cantebury Tales, in it's original form, was darn near impossible to decipher. Most English books either have it in "Modern English", or a mixed version thereof.

Jedi Master Carr

Jul 13th, 2002, 09:48:10 PM

Yeah The Canterbury Tales were written in Middle English which is hard to read I took a course in it, in College and had to read the whole thing in that form believe me it was difficult. Beowolf is worse because it was written in old English which is impossible to read at all, today its like another language, I am sure you probably read the translated version of that.

As far as Shakespear I read somewhere that some aristocrats did start to mimic Shakespear's language, sure it was not common because the commoners defintely did not speak like that, I am no linguist so I am not completely certain about all of this so I would have to do a lot of research to really know. On to that dumb theory about Shakespear not writing his plays, IMO is full of crap, I have no clue who started it but there is no proff, all repeditable historians scoff at that theory because it has no basis in fact, especially the belief that Roger Bacon actually wrote them, sure Bacon had some talent as a writer but his writings was not on par with Shakespear and the same with Raleigh he wrote some and was a better writer than Bacon but he was more interested in exploring and settling colonies (including the one that vanished in North Carolina), he also spent a good deal of time in prision so there is no way he could have written so many plays.
Shakespear is genius IMO, and Macbeth is one of his better plays, still my favorite will always be Hamlet that play is pure brillance.

Taataani Meorrrei

Jul 14th, 2002, 12:11:06 AM

I read the Middle English version of the Canterbury Tales. Besides Macchiavelli's "The Prince" and Hawthorne's "Scarlet Letter", it was the hardest read I've ever had. But once deciphered, comedy gold :)

As for Shakespeare, I see him more like an Eminem of his day. If you listen to Eminem's lyrics (apart from the attempt to offend every living soul on earth), its a lyrical playground. Say what you will about him, he's talented beyond words, and when you can get points across simply by alliteration, or indirect literary effects, you are using words the way that artists use paint.

Nupraptor

Jul 14th, 2002, 02:07:27 AM

Hardest read I had was when I tried to read the Divine Comedy in the 7th grade. Took me almost a week to get through all three books.

JonathanLB

Jul 14th, 2002, 02:11:28 AM

Crikey! I can't believe you like that bloke. Eminem is like a vicious Crocodile with the foul mouth of one of those venemous snakes we have here in the outback. I wish one of those poachers would leave my territory and chase after that bloke. His music is bloody awful mate!

Darth Vader

Jul 14th, 2002, 10:46:26 AM

Whether you like what he has to say or not, the presence of his talent is undeniable.

BUFFJEDI

Jul 14th, 2002, 11:04:03 AM

Whether you like what he has to say or not, the presence of his talent is undeniable. Talent ??

by no means am I a critic nor do I know Half the knowledge you guy's have BUT M&M :D has no talent. he has people in the background pulling his strings writing his stuff....... oh I'm not going into it
O_o

but remember that's just my opinion :)

ReaperFett

Jul 14th, 2002, 01:11:23 PM

Wow, talking abuse to a repetetive track takes SO much talent.

Oh sorry, I appear to be in sarcasm mode :)

Marcus Telcontar

Jul 14th, 2002, 04:09:51 PM

Talent or whatever, if you ignore the profanities, what he raps about is actually more often than not quite true and needs to be said.

No, I dont think he has talent - other than being able to string a set of words together in a semi rythym that is for the most part half decent. It always surprises me that I agree with what he says, especially when he is bashing the music industry itself. The spray he had on Britney Spears is a classic :)

ReaperFett

Jul 14th, 2002, 04:12:35 PM

Funny how he had a go at her after she turned him down, eh? :)

JMK

Jul 14th, 2002, 05:24:13 PM

Did anyone see him on SNL last night? The guy's a joke. Sure he can "rap", but he's got no stage presence whatsoever.

Darth Vader

Jul 14th, 2002, 11:57:37 PM

Give me somebody with musical talent and no stage talent over some syrupy teen band who manufactures horsecrap on disc but can deliver a well-choreographed prance at halftime for the Super Bowl (N'Sync, for the laymen)

ReaperFett

Jul 15th, 2002, 02:56:40 AM

Give me neither thanks :)

Loki Ahmrah

Jul 15th, 2002, 04:30:06 AM

It irritates me when people say people like Eminem have no talent because I don't mean to be rude but have to, it just shows how little they understand musical talent. I'm not a fan of rap but even I like Eminem's stuff, he is a breath of fresh air and putting the insults and profanity aside what he has to say is intelligent and is pretty deep stuff. Most people don't appreciate that sort of stuff because there aren't many people ballsy enough to say it.

He is remarkably talented; I find with the singles he's released that I can't help but move to it in some way, it is catchy but there is a distinct difference between liking someone's music and appreciating their musical talent. His talent is shown through his intelligence, his ability to manipulate the press, his business know-how, his career moves and his music. People really need to learn to put personal opinions to one side when they decide if a person has talent or not.