"Shadow Jedi"?

[Ki-Adi Kindo]

What are the Sahdow Jedi and what do they believe?

[Marcus Telcontar]

Shadow Jedi are a conjecture that they can use both sides of the Force and basically Fence sit.

It's been discussed in the Roleplaying section and it's been pretty much decided Shadow Jedi would be impossible

[Densetsu Roninichi]

Is a Shadow Jedi the same thing as a Grey Jedi?
Those have been touched on briefly, I thought, in one of the books, but I can not remember which one.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Probably, cause the books every now and then bring in complete nonsense and pass it off.

[Daren Trevelan]

Actually the way Shadow Jedi work are they are "perfect balance" between the Force. They do not use too much of the Dark Side as they do not use too much of the Light Side.

They have of course been forced to create techniques that are quite draining that they must do once a day to cleanse themselves of "evil deeds" so to speak. They seek balance and justice above all else, in a way they are a lot like Kyp Durron except a bit more lawful.

[Marcus Telcontar]

No, the Force does not work like that. Balance is not between Dark and Light - Balance is soemthing else. What exactly seems to be more related to Good being called evil and evil done for the name of good. - the blurring of the clear distinction of good and evil if you will. Your either knowingly Light or dark, the only way you can be sort between either is if you are like Mara Jade, who was unknowing of the Force and was more of a puppet anyway. You will be either seduced deeper into the Dark Side or you will choose to go light side.

[imported_Lance Stormrider]

All I can say is that if there is a Shadow Jedi he has to be one hell of a freaking strong assed dude that has rped here for a good and a good while. Cause I mean that's almost god moding having a char that has the perfect balance which would make it an omni powered char`--->Kick Ass Char. But I do think it is possible................the force is like a religion one that is intelligent...will collect the good things of each side and rise powerfull in wisdom and power. Heh that's my opinion of course.

[Daren Trevelan]

Thing is Shadow Jedi don't try to wield this power into some uncanny mastery of destruction, it's nothing like that. Rather it's trying to balance out the Force as a whole, not just themselves.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Shadow Jedi are a fan fiction that hasnt been thought out very well. Ask the roleplayers here and you will get quite response - because most of them have a good understandign of what is intended by The Force and it's background in the mind of Mr Lucas.

There is NO balance between good and evil, forget that Ying Yang stuff, that is not the case with The Force. Nor is there Karma concepts. You either know the good and the bad and you know what side you should be on.

And as they say, Man who sit on fence, get butt full of splinters

[imported_Lance Stormrider]

What about Dark Jedis what the hell are they? I mean as soona s your dark uyour a Sith then what's up with Dark Jedis.

[Chase Starwalker]

and like they also say...

Man who sit on fence post, is just plain gay!

[Kar'h'tzen Shaed]

Wrong, Lance. Sith are Force-wielders who follow the ancient Sith teachings, like all the Darths of the movies did and the thousands of Sith before them.

Count Dooku was a Dark Jedi. He used to be a Jedi, but was cast out or just left of his own accord because he no longer believed in THEIR teachings. As of Ep II, of course, he's no longer a Dark Jedi and has actually become a Sith - but the Jedi don't know that yet.

Dark Jedi do not claim to be Jedi. They use the Dark Side. But they don't follow the rituals or teachings or beliefs or whatnot of the Sith. Think of it this way - Sith is a sort of culture. Liken it to being a nazi in this world. The Jedi are, oh, capitalists. But there are still communists and all sorts of other ists. These beliefs sometimes share the same ideals, but they certainly are not the same.

Dark Jedi, in this RPing universe, are Force-users who use the Dark Side, but claim that Sith behave like animals and that the Dark Jedi are far more refined and elegant in their ways. To a Dark Jedi, the Force is not an ally, it is not something that controls them. It is clay, for them to mold into a tool or a weapon or whatever they wish. They are like Jedi in the sense they wish to bring order to the galaxy. But they will use ANY means to achieve the sort of "order" they desire, including the Dark Side.

I don't think I've explained this very well, but please try to understand most who call themselves "Dark Jedi" in this RP universe are not fence-sitters. We are evil. We just aren't Sith. We use different methods, believe different things, and don't sit around all day trying to interpret ancient Sith texts and such. ;) I don't believe many people actually know exactly what it means to call themselves a Sith, but the Sith are users of the Dark Side who follow the Sith teachings. Sith teachings, I believe, can be followed even by those who cannot touch the Force in the stuff I've read. It's just a way of life, and the Sith of today follow it whether they think being Sith just means being an evil Jedi or not.

If this all confuses or terribly upsets anyone, please be sure to not let me know and to not bring it up ever again. Sorry. I tried.

[Marcus Telcontar]

I completely argee on what you said a Dark Jedi is - I always saw a Sith as more of a religious order. Which they probably are.

[imported_Lance Stormrider]

Hmm I get it now......I must say a Dark jedi char would be the best for me...I just can't stay all smiley and happy 100% of the time -.-.....It bores me to rp a char like that.

[Loki Ahmrah]

I disagree about Shadow Jedi, I think of it like this:

Spectrum of the Force:

Light ---------------------------|---------------------------- Dark
10--9--8--7--6--5--4--3--2--1--0--1--2--3--4--5--6--7--8--9--10

A Jedi can use the Force from 0 to 10 on the Light Side.

A Sith or Dark Jedi, 0-10 on the Dark Side.

A Shadow Jedi 5-5 from the Light Side to the Dark, no more.

In roleplaying terms this is fair and I really don't understand why it is so "impossible."

As for the conceot that Dark-Siders are always evil is as ridiculous as saying Light Siders are always good. People's opinions of whether a Dark-Sider can or cannot love varies but I'll be damned before any tries to pursuade me that my Dark-Side character can't feel hapiness.

As for Sith being a culture, I completely agree - hell, I've even composed my own ancient sith alphabet for roleplaying. :)

[Chance]

Originally posted by Chance
Theorotically speaking,

Would there, or rather, could there be a neutrality side to the force? Clarified, you got those evils over there, Good guys over there. Whois in the middle; The guy's who cant make up their damn mind correct?

Am I babling with terrrible spelling?

Er... Loki beat me to it!

[imported_Lance Stormrider]

Hmm 5-5 I like that idea.

[Marcus Telcontar]

I dont see anyone staying as a fence sitter for long. The only times I think it's possible to be neutral is being totally unlerned or in a transition phase. The Force has no shades of grey I think and the Dark Side would be a good deal more seductive and easier to use. Eventually, you wuld slip into full Dark Jedi.

Which is very much what Dooku did. He calls himself a Sith, but he is really more of a Dark Jedi. Now because he was a powerful Jedi to start with, he would actually be able to use his Jedi abilities - but he also has the Dark Side to augment his power. In some ways, this is the most powerful a Dark Sider could get. In a way, that is why Palpatine is so powerful - he took on Jedi techniques to accquire power as well as the Sith ones.

There is nothing that says a Dark Jedi cant use Jedi techniques and skills. Where a Jedi has the advantage in that is they are predisposed to the calm and peace to truly do them properly and powerfully.

[Loki Ahmrah]

I dont see anyone staying as a fence sitter for long.

That's fine but what I think has to be appreciated is that in the Star Wars universe, a fictional universe in which we are free to create, nothing is impossible and there may be certain people/characters with the increadible mental and emotional discipline to remain neutral. It's likely they would slip or flock over to the Light Side before they do fall but remaining neutral isn't impossible.

[Marcus Telcontar]

If you have that control, you would make one hell of a Jedi

[Loki Ahmrah]

Very true and in saying what I have said and in light of what you'd just it would make sense for said character to move to the Light Side which favours control whereas the Dark Side wouldn't be doing said individual any favours. It's all very exciting. :)

[Marcus Telcontar]

Which is pretty much why I see the neutral zone as a transition area. Your going to naturally move to the area that will suit you.

I never thought of it like this, but maybe the dark Side is also about lack of control, while the Light Side is about total control.

And in thinking about that, a person could possess limited control over themselves, with makes nominal use of the Dark or light side possibe. No real control, but no real ability to have a lack of it. Hmmm. Possible?

Such a person would also be quite limited in their use of The Force too.

[imported_Lance Stormrider]

I get it.

[Kar'h'tzen Shaed]

As for the conceot that Dark-Siders are always evil is as ridiculous as saying Light Siders are always good. People's opinions of whether a Dark-Sider can or cannot love varies but I'll be damned before any tries to pursuade me that my Dark-Side character can't feel hapiness.

Right-o, happiness is one thing, peace and the deeper sense of "joy" (if this doesn't make sense, don't bother) are another. Love is of the Light Side, I guess you'd say, but if Jedi can slip up and hate, then I don't see why users of the Dark Side - Sith, Dark Jedi, and whatnot - cannot love.

By the by, the EU touches a bit on there being more than one possibility of Light Side Force user. In those wretched books where Luke meets some chick who follows "The Way", or something like that. I forget. Anyway, she had powers and she used them for good, but she was not a Jedi. I think the reason no one ever RPs a Light Side character who is not a Jedi is that there is, basically, no point to them not being Jedi. The Order isn't corrupt, and Jedi RPers have pretty much free rein over what they do. So nevermind on that.

And while I'm struggling to think of Dark Jedi, let's not forget that craaaaaazy Joruus C'Baoth! ;)

So, anyhoo.

Sith is a religion, one aspect, that a user of the Dark Side may be. They tend to not use Light Side powers as much as any other Dark Siders. They follow an ancient, mainly animalistic code of evil.

Dark Jedi are Dark Siders. Despite their seeming "fence-sitting", they are, nonetheless, steeped in the Dark Side and evil no matter how they try to disguise themselves with using the Light Side or smooth talking. Plus we all seem to be a little crazy, but that's definitely not a requirement for being a Dark Jedi. Dark Jedi are, to boil it down, in their own eyes far more cultured and wise Dark Siders than the Sith. Their other differences are debatable and there may not be many.

Jedi are Light Siders who also adhere to an ancient code, like the Sith. But their's is, in recent days, much more lax and gives the Jedi more freedom of choice - though whether this will hurt the Jedi or help them in the end is still unclear.

There are no real other groups of Light Siders; there is no need for there to be. The Jedi completely embody the Light Side, or they used to. Still, there is the choice to not be a Jedi and still be good.

The Dark Side leads to evil, pleasing yourself, and the desire for domination and destruction.

The Light Side leads to good, helping others, and the desire to serve and help make things whole.

[Loki Ahmrah]

Sith is a religion, one aspect, that a user of the Dark Side may be. They tend to not use Light Side powers as much as any other Dark Siders. They follow an ancient, mainly animalistic code of evil.

Sith are an acient species that were wiped out. Dark Jedi used their powers to manipulate and corrupt them as they were rather primitive. That way the Sith became Dark Siders although in some of their rituals there was the presence of the Dark Side occasionally. I really hate the way the definitions of Dark Jedi and Sith have been mixed and blended.

Dark Jedi are meant to be the ones verging on insanity with a lust for power whilst Sith are just out for revenge after the race was purged. When and why along the line did these DarK Jedi invaders become Sith - it drives me mad and is so frustrating.

[Marcus Telcontar]

I tend to think that the Sith are a specialised branch of the Dark Jedi - Dark Jedi dont have the rituals and "majics" the Sith are supposed to do (Which I will add in my opinion is a compete load of EU BS).

Palpatine calls himself a Sith, but I think he is more of a Dark Jedi, as are all the so called Sith from Darth Bane. And that is what Dooku is as well, he is a Dark Jedi, not a Sith.

I'd also agree that power lust is high on the agenda for any Dark Jedi and insanity is likely to be a touch of a problem

[Loki Ahmrah]

You say the Sith rituals and sorcery is a completel load of BS but I think you're overlooking the fact that the Sith were a primitive species that carried out rituals, sacrifices and whatnot for their Gods and in doing so tapped into the Force unknowingly and the Dark Jedi took advantage of this and built their own army with them.

I agree, Darth Sidious is deinately more Dark Jedi than Sith, I think a Sith is something very specific and defined as opposed to some footloose Dark Side organisation which is the general interpretation these days.

When my character, Gav, performs these rituals they are very primitive and simplistic and I use the alphabet I created to compose the ancient Sith language for my character when I do it. Also I keep record of each ritual and spell used with appropriate translation to maintain consistency.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Which is quite fair. I've also always played out Dark Siders as Dark Jedi, who were slightly or a lot crazy.

Now I agree with your interpetation of the Sith, what I am saying is that the WEG definition and a lot of the EU's simply is pure stupidity.

[Kar'h'tzen Shaed]

Yub yub. :)

[Adm Garm Bel Iblis]

Is this concept an extrapolation of the force users introduced in Stackpole's, I, Jedi? I thought it was intruiging, but I have a hard time seeing it work, too.

[Kar'h'tzen Shaed]

Hm, I don't think so. You mean the Jensaari, I think they called themselves. Basically they were Force users who THOUGHT they were light siders, but they were taught Sith principles and whatnot, whatever that entailed. I was never really clear on if they even used the Dark Side, but I guess they must have.

It is, in effect, just a group of Force users who trained with no one to teach them Light from Dark, just memories and some handy Sith manuals.

Anyway, they didn't seem to have a problem turning from the Dark Side in the end, when they saw it was actually evil.

It would be hard to RP someone who is truly unaware of what "Light" and "Dark" entails around here, methinks. Not with so many Sith and Jedi, all happy to explain their ideals. Thus, no, I don't believe this concept-throwing-around of ours has anything to do with the Jensaari. :)

[Sanis Prent]

Loki's explanation of a possible "shadow" existing isn't too bad...though I think such an existence would be transitionary (either coming or going to one end), because even though you have this flexibility, you have very little potency in either. Your ambition would naturally pull you to one end or the other.

[Doc Milo]

To back up what Marcus has been saying about the Force and Balance, and the Balance to the Force not meaning the ability to use both Dark and Lightside in "symetry" (to not use the word balance) I present the words of George Lucas in CUT magazine, way back in August, 1999. Link: http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/tfn.cgi?storyID=3899



CUT: In Episode 1 Qui-Gon Jinn said Anakin would bring balance to The Force. What does that mean?

GL: Let me explain briefly. If good and evil are mixed, things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have to balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this.

CUT: I see....

GL: In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred tostates someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces. All of this shall be explained in Episode 2, so I can't say any more!


Well, not much of it was really "explained" in Ep2, but we were starting to see the explanation. Good and Evil becoming mixed. A blurring of the line between the two is a sign of imbalance, not balance. So, this so-called Shadow Jedi would not be practicing balance as it is defined by the Flanneled One. The Shadow Jedi, as defined earlier, would be practicing imbalance. Balance occurs when the focal point is replaced, the line between good and evil restored so that it is clear cut.

What we see in Dooku, I believe, is an illustration of this imbalance. I see Dooku as joining the dark side because he believes he can destroy it from within. But, once he tried, he was consumed by it. As more corruption filters through the SW universe, as the line between what is right and what is wrong becomes more and more blurred, the Dark Side grows in power, and the Light Side diminishes. Balance is only achieved when the corruptor -- the Sith -- are destroyed.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

OOoh, excellent points, all. :)

[Figrin D'an]

Agree with Doc, I do.


I think it's important to remember that, according to the EU, the definition of 'Sith' has changed over the 10,000 year span before the Battle of Yavin. Originally, the Sith were the powerful, yet primative, civilization that came to be ruled by the outcast Jedi after the Great Schism. These Jedi, using they're own Force abilities with the "sorcery" of the Sith, became the first Sith Lords. By the time of Darth Bane, and the 'new' Sith that he established after the battle at the Valley of the Jedi, the Sith were more like 'Dark Jedi', in the sense that they less used the ancient magics and focused more on the traditional Jedi skills and sabre combat. The name 'Sith', originally the ancient peoples controled by the first "Dark Jedi", eventually comes to refer to a cult of Dark Side users.

So, in that sense, Sidious, Maul, Dooku, Vader... they are all Sith in name, but are more so "Dark Jedi" in a fundamental sense. They may still employ certain ancient Sith techniques, but not like those wielded by Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, etc...

So... similar on some levels, quite different on others.