Do you think EP2 should have been EP1?

[ReaperFett]

This was something someone said about at TF.N, thought I'd throw it at you.




What this means is, the setting (Palpatine as Chancellor, Anakin 18/20....) is where TPM begins. Had this happened, the romance could have moved along slower. Anakin could have actually been this "good man" that Obi Wan later speaks of, because he has another film to evolve.




What do you think? I'm personally torn. I like the idea a lot, but feel that TPM was a good start.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Geez..... what a question.

What a very good question.

It's a good suggestion actually. I rather like it.

[Sanis Prent]

TPM seems more like the Hobbit to the Star Wars saga. That is to say, a light introduction to the true story. So yeah...I think that the real start should be Episode 2

[Doc Milo]

One of the problems I see with it is the "attachment" theme. Not being able to break attachments seems to be a very strong theme in Anakin's fall to the dark side. An 18-20 year old man would not have the same conflict in him when he has to leave his mother that a nine year old does. Anakin's relationship with his mother and the attachment to her, and the fear of separation and losing her is a major part of his fall -- it makes him emotionally unstable, and sets up a conflict with the Jedi Way, the path he has to take, and the path his heart wants to take. There is, now, this constant fear in him, a fear that stems from leaving his mother at nine, leaving her in a life of slavery, and not ever knowing what happens to her until he starts dreaming of her, and goes to her, and is too late to save her. If he had left as a teenager, during it becomes almost a natural procession.

Unless, of course, all of what we saw in TPM becomes backstory to the prequels . . . otherwise a lot would have to be reworked.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don't think that would have worked to me, I liked TPM how it is it sets up 2 very well especially Palpatine's manipulations, plus how would they have explained where Anakin came from it would been harder to work IMO much like Doc said also the council would never have allowed an 18 year old to be trained.

[ReaperFett]

Anakin would already be in training, not just started.

[Jedi Master Carr]

But then that would lose the audience because we wouldn't have met his mother or Qui-Gon Jinn, some parts of the story wouldn't make anysense (his mother's death, Count Dooku and who he is etc) If Ep 2 would have Ep1 there would be so many plot holes it would be ridiculous.

[ReaperFett]

Dooku/Qui Gon is currently so minor a thing it almost doesnt matter. We can learn about his mother in other forms. Maybe give her more than "Annie, Annie.....". For a second, I thought she'd break out singing Smooth Criminal ;)


And besides, it works better than Padmé falling in love with this snappy arrogant and annoying 18 year old who has been fantacising about her since he met her as a kid :)

[Doc Milo]

Would they just drop the whole "Chosen One" and "Balance to the Force" theme? Because it would be difficult to introduce that aspect the way things stand right now with AotC.

[ReaperFett]

The idea ISNT to start from EP2. It's to start from that position. They could explain it in a hundred and one ways :)

[Live Wire]

hmmm I kinda like the idea.....I can see how it could be done well

[Ilyn Pyke]

How about Lucas just scrap EP.1 and re-design it with a more solid plotline. Instead of this "Darn we must land on Tatooine... and gee golly-gee willikers ... we have found the chosen one under a rock on this wasteland too" concept.

Young Anakin and his mother could have been introduced through a much stronger plot ploy. Instead of with this 'by incident' why didn't GL go with 'by design or by purpose'.

I am not that big of a fan of the TPM because of the directions GL could have chosen are infinite including those of which would have been absolutely brilliant. Think about it.. if you were called upon to write TPM. What storybuilding plot or device would you have used? How would you have introduced Anakin and his mother to the Jedi? How would you have introduced the return of the mysterious Sith?

Anyways, I hope this post hasn't offended any of my fellow fans. Just wanted to expand our vision of TPM.

[JMK]

No offence taken, as much as I love TPM, I too think it could have been done in numerous different ways. I got kind of annoyed at how everything seemed to happen "by chance" in TPM. Finding Anakin in a shop they just happened to be in, Jar Jar tripping over himself and knocking over half of the droid army, Anakin accidentally flying into the Droid control ship, and mistakenly destroying it. To me, it just seemed like a lazy way to tell a story, and fast.
That being said however, I agree with Doc and think it was vital to have Anakin leave home at an early stage of his life when he needs his mother. Yes, his attachment to his mother could have been laid out in other forms too, but face it, we NEED to see his love for his mother, and the heartbreak he felt over leaving her. Lucas left out enough things that we think we "needed" to see, such as the suffering of the people of Naboo, that if he had left out his separation from his mother, we would have complained about that too.

[ReaperFett]

Not had it been written ina good way :)

[Doc Milo]

I think that the separation has to be shown in order to have an emotional impact. The Star Wars movies have never had a flashback -- thus that technique would be out of place. To just have that information "told" to us would not be as powerful.

What I think is, there is so much information that had to be covered, perhaps he needed six more movies -- not for prequels and sequels, but prequels and pre-prequels.

The first three we see Anakin as a kid discovered by the Jedi and growing up -- movies that span the ten years. There wouldn't be that big a gap between movies. Maybe 2 years between each, in which we see various stages of him dealing with his Jedi training. Senator Palpatine becoming Chancellor, and securing his power, Darth Sidious continuing his manipulations, how Count Dooku was recruited. Anakin being "guided" by Palpatine. The Jedi slowly losing their connection to the Force, that type of stuff -- we'll call these episodes -2, -1, and 0. Then Episodes 1, 2, and 3, starting with Anakin as an 18-20 year old, and developing the love story between Anakin and Padme more slowly as suggested here.

That would work, IMO. There is enough stuff to write it that way, too...

[JMK]

Story wise, they would make sense. I think in that format, it would work better as a set of nine novels. I would much preferred to have seen GL take his time with the entire saga, pace it better, than to cram it all down our throats. But I also think that the pre-prequels, with Ani's growing up etc, would be poor decisions, business wise. And as much as GL says he doesn't care, those movies would not have made that much. GL is afterall, a very astute business man. In the SW movies now, something major happens in each of them, to make them a better draw.

But still, I wouldn't complain if there were to be 9 Star Wars movies, but something would have had to have been done about Jake Lloyd. I don't think I would be able to handle 3 movies with that crappy little brat.:p

[Ilyn Pyke]

Yes, Lucas does appear to be cramming four movies worth of material into two movies. I feel Anakin and mother's introduction could have been done much more intelligently and with a more sense of urgency. That Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have a directive to extract this young boy for the council had gain knowledge of his high midi-chloridian count. Darth Maul is set after Anakin or sent to destroy the Jedi's mission. Even include a powerful scene where either Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon in peril need young Anakin's valuable intervention. "Help me... Anakin ... help me." In which the young boy, completely terrified, reluctantly steps forward and gives the aid that is needed. The Trade Federation and Naboo storyline should remain but perhaps slightly altered. Along with Chancellor Veloram being ousted by Palpatine by majority vote. And no Gungans! This is just one example of a scenario and device.

As always there are many forms and versions floating around in my head. TPM, if Lucas would have taken more time, could have made a brilliant movie. A movie deserving of our 16 year wait.

[JMK]

I agree that TPM should have and could have been SO much better, but I stop short of bashing it.

[Doc Milo]

I agree that there are choices Lucas made that, had I been writing the film, would not have made. But that doesn't make my choices any better than his. I love TPM. I think it is an excellent movie. It's not perfect, but no movie is. It has its flaws. But to say it wasn't worth the 16 year wait? No. It was worth it. The choices he made were not mine, sure. But some of the choices -- like the Gungans, and the more slapstick humor, to name a few of the things that people rail about -- I can see why that decision was made. I can see where he is going with that decision, how he uses humor as a motiff to reflect the various stages of development in the galaxy, and to support his innocence/innocence lost metaphors. The bright colors and shining technology giving way to black, white, and gray to give us a visual of the stages of decline in the galaxy as the republic gives way to the Empire.

Yes, my movie would have been darker. My movie would have been a bit more complex. But my movie wouldn't include a lot of those elements that help us visualize the myth and metaphors hidden within the text. So, in that sense, my movie might have ended up being more shallow, and less of the tale Lucas wants to tell -- about the tragedy and redemption of Anakin.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I really enjoyed TPM and the only thing that I would change is taking out the fart jokes besides that there isn't really anything that I don't like about it.

[ReaperFett]

I like it, but it forced too much into EP2. The Han/Leia romance started in ANH, went thorugh as a major plot in ESB, and ended in ROTJ. EP2 had nearly all of it, and went beyond

[JMK]

I think the problem is that Lucas is having a hard time about which choice is actually better for the saga. In TPM, he wanted us to know that Anakin was this kind, giving child that everyone loved. I can see why that's necessary. BUT in AotC, all of that kindness is gone, and it's replaced with impatience, and irrational behavior and a wicked temper. If his name wasn't Anakin, I wouldn't have known it was the same kid. I think GL should have showed a little bit of a mean streak in Anakin, like that scene where he pounds Greedo. But there aren't my decisions, and when all is said and done, I will have seen TPM way more in theater than I will any other SW movie, so that has to mean something. :)

[ReaperFett]

By having Anakin how he is in EP2, it goes back on the "He was a good man" line by Obi Wan

[Jedi Master Carr]

First there was no Han-Leia romance in ANH, all it was Han saying smart things to Leia, if anything it looked like there would be a Luke-Leia romance which of course was impossible but nobody knew that at the time. As far as having Anakin looking mean in TPM well it wouldn't have worked for me because than if he was mean I couldn't see how he could possibly redeem himself because he would be rotten to the core. Also, I don't see him as a bad person in AOTC except he made some wrong choices and some of it also has to do with bad training by Obi-Wan who I think just was not ready to train Anakin, he himself is arrogant (watch TPM he says some Arrogant stuff) so I kind of blame him for Anakin's fall and I think Obi-wan blames himself as is evident in OT.

[ReaperFett]

He disagrees with everyone, and is VERY arrogant. And when does he follow the council? When he knows Obi Wan is going to die! Yeah, lovely fellow

[Jedi Master Carr]

Qui-Gon Jinn was the same way actually, but I also think he was very depressed realized his mother had just died and he went and took out a whole camp of Tuskens, so I am sure he had a lot on his mind.

[ReaperFett]

Did he have a lot on his mind every time he was acting like he should be the one running the show? :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well at that point he had witnessed his mother's death nor did had he massacred a whole Tusken Tribe and those are both big things, I really think he didn't want to go because he would probably get Padme and maybe even Obi-Wan killed.

[ReaperFett]

Obi Wan was dead anyway. He could have eft Padmé there. Like he said earlier, they are good people

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I doubt Padme would have willingly stayed behind. Also I have to admit that he was a little angry at Obi-Wan at the time that could have clouded his judgement but to me it shows how easy it is for somebody to become evil or commit evil deeds. I have had thoughts like that about people I was mad at (Oh I wish he would die) and I am sure most people have and it shows that we are all are capable of evil it is in our very souls. As far as Anakin he did redeem himself towards the end of the movie, by saving Obi-Wan's life.

[ReaperFett]

Doesnt matter if he's already dead. And I dont believe if someone thought "I wish he was dead", and then actually knew he was going to would just sit around.


That must be why the OT DVDs are out after EP3. To digitally make Alec Guinness' lines fit in with the PT :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Unfortuntely that is not true, I am sure there are cases of it happening couldn't point on particulars on your scenerio but there have been cases of people doing nothing while somebody was getting killed I can think of several one was in New York back in the 70's in this aparment building somebody was raping and killing this girl in the hallway all the tenates heard her screams and not one did a thing, they didn't even call the police. There was also a case recently where somebody threw some girl off a bridge and there were about 20 people around and not one tried to stop him. To me it shows how easy it is to do nothing.

[ReaperFett]

But Anakin is "a good man" :)

[Sanis Prent]

He wanted to go from the start. He needed an excuse other than "Obiwan's there". After all, his defiance of the council the first time had got him nothing except seeing his mother die in his arms. So second time around, sure there's reluctance.

Just cause he isn't Sir freakin' Gallahad, doesn't mean he's not a "good friend" (not "man", misquoter)

[ReaperFett]

(not "man", misquoter)
It's attitudes like that that annoy me. Throw in the insult why dont we? I made a mistake, and you're not perfect.


And what proof is there he is this "Good friend" then?

[Sanis Prent]

Jeebus, I'm being humorous, hardass.

I would consider breaking the law, risking your neck, and the neck of your girl all to save your bud would make you a good friend.

[ReaperFett]

No, I'd consider it what the Jedi do. So, are all 200 Jedi Obi Wans friends too? :)

[Doc Milo]

There are ten years between TPM and AotC. That's a lot of time that we have missed. There is that scene in the elevator at the beginning of the movie that shows their closeness as friends. Yes, Obi-Wan is a tough master, and Anakin is a bratty apprentice. But there is definitely enough in the movie to show that they are good friends. Just because they argue doesn't mean they're not friends.

Plus . . . Obi-Wan, during that specific conversation with Luke was telling things from that "certain point of view." It's not like that is the most reliable of quotes to go by in the SW movies.

[ReaperFett]

But when Obi Wan says it, he trails off. As if it is real

And also, aside from the lift scene, I never feel they are friends. Father-son, but not friends. Obi Wan seemed to act like they were friends, but NEVER from Anakin, IMO. It only needs a few sentences, maybe one or two extra scenes. Instead, it just looks as if Lucas just plum forgot about the Luke/Obi convo on Tatooine (years-generations too).

[Sanis Prent]

So the witty banter in the coruscant speeder was....? Just elevator chat? No.

[ReaperFett]

not overly witty, and generally Obi Wan lecturing? :)

[Jedieb]

Do I think EP2 should have been EP1? Yes and no. Some elements and plot points of TPM needed to be introduced. We needed to meet a young Anakin and Amidala. What I would have done differently was to have closed the gap between them. I think a younger Padme (13-14) and an 11 or 12 year old Anakin would have worked a bit better. You would have gotten a more mature character, but one young enough that separation from his mother was still a painful break. Remember, even though you have an older child leaving his mother, he's still leaving her in the hands of slavery. That's painful enough to cause incredible guilt, regardless of Anakin's age.

Making Padme younger may have streched the credibility of her being an elected Queen, but I found that to be rather fantastic to begin with. A child monarch is one thing, but an ELECTED one is just fantasy. But that's what SW is so you buy it. I may have just tanked the whole "Queen" bit and found another way to get Padme, Qui-Gon, & Obi-Wan on Tatooine.

I also would have show SOME kind of attraction between Anakin and Padme. Even if it's just a childhood crush, it's something to build on. But a 9 year old going gaga for a 15 year old just doesn't work for me.

Then we get to Jar Jar. The most reviled and abused character in the history of SW. Whether you hate him or love him, you can't deny that no one besides the Ewoks has taken more abuse than Jar Jar. What would I have done? I would have kicked Ahmed Best off the lot after his first audition. My biggest problem with Jar Jar was never the character as much the horrendous performance Best delievered. He wasn't helped by all the "Meesa" jargon, but his voice was just grating and annoying to me, and many others. He's the freakin' Barney of Star Wars. Kids giggle, but many adults writhe in agony and reach for a nearby handgun. So I'd keep the character, rework his dialogue, and hire an actor that could make both kids and adults laugh.

Obi-Wan & Anakin
Yes, lines from the OT gave us all the impression that Anakin and Obi-Wan were good friend and maybe a bit close in age. But we always knew that Obi-Wan was older. He was the teacher after all. But virtually all of what we're seeing did not exist when the OT was being filmed so it's amazing that it fits together as well as it does.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Wasn't Padme suppose to be 14? That was what I gathered from the film Lucas said she was 14, I guess the problem is there that Natalie was 16 at the time so she does look older than 14. I guess its a meaningless point there. Second about the elective monarchs techinically there were some way back in Ancient Rome, the Roman Repulic elected consuls which were basically dictator (Julius Ceasar was one) I think there were a few cases of elected kings in Ancient Greece and elected dictators in the case of Pereclies. So I can buy an elected monarchy in a different world so I have no problem with that notion in the film. Personally I was fine with the story and really wouldn't change anything, Jar Jar could be a different matter, I would have removed those fart jokes for sure but other than I really didn't have a problem, with him and I know some people who like him mostly girls, I think its mostly the adult SW fans that hate him that seems to be what I can gather from talking to people.

As far as the old friend thing again, I watched it again today and I must add that there was the conservation in Padme's apartment where Obi-Wan was asking Anakin about his dreams that seemed very friendlike or father like to me. Also I think Obi-wan considered him his friend similarly that he considered Qui-Gon and him were friends. Anakin may have saw him more like father but I feel that was because he never had a father which would have been why he would have felt that way.

[ReaperFett]

yes, 14 is what I heard

[JMK]

The only arguable attration between Anakin and Padme was on the ship to Coruscant when Ani gives Padme that carving.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well he did ask if she was an angel, and they looked at each other a few times with Padme smiling at him at the end, so there were a few hints.

[AZDaizy]

Anakin DID look happy when Padme "forced" him to go to Geonosis...

And why doesn't Padme wear the necklace in this movie? It would have been a nice sentiment. Or perhaps that's the hopeless romantic in me speaking.

[Jedieb]

Would you have elected a 14 year old monarch? That's just plain ridiculous. The only way that passes is if there's some kind of blood line issue, which TPM or the EP2 novelization never suggests. It's just plain silly. So even though AOTC suggests that electing young Queens is a kind of tradition, the fact that Amidala replaced an older King contradicts that. I just would have liked to have seen two characters that could have interacted with each other on a more even plane. If he's 11 and she's 13, then you've got something to work with. But 9 and 14 just doesn't work. Especially when all the audience sees is a girl that obviously looks 16-17. They never saw her age on screen so what's the audience to think? The characters were too far apart in age to have any kind of chemistry.

[Jedi Master Carr]

There were cultures with young rulers though none of them were elected. The only argument I can make though it wasn't in the film was that Palpatine had Padme elected because she was easy to manipulate, or so he thought, he probably rigged the election, that would be my guess. As far as your other point, well that was difficult though, I think the average moviegoer probably didn't even pay attention to it, mostly because there was no budding romance and there relationship didn't matter to the plot of TPM.

[Jedieb]

Their relationship SHOULD have mattered to the plot IMO. It's a MAJOR plot point of AOTC. It's something Anakin ends up obssessing about for almost 10 years. There should have been some hint of that in TPM. It would have made the AOTC romance that much more credible. How many times have we heard something along these lines about AOTC;"Why did Padme suddenly fall in love with Anakin?" If there's a hint that their feelings have been mutual for all those years then their relationship works that much better in AOTC.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I saw the romance similar to that of Shakespear plays like Romeo and Julliet and Midsummer's Night dream in both of those plays the characters quickly fall in love. Like Julliet she fell in love with Romeo the minute she saw him and in Midsummers night dream Helena (I might be confusing the characters its been a while) who loved Lisander at the end of the play changes and realizes she love Demitrieus. So it is nothing new I think Lucas copied the bard there.

[JMK]

I think that GL could have done better to set up the love story than what he did. At the beginning of AotC, Padme's constantly reminding Anakin that he will always be that little boy, and asking him not to grow up too fast. Girls don't fall in love with little boys, except their own children. For her to blurt out that she loved him all of a sudden was a little too much for me to believe, but I'll eat it up because it's SW.;)

[AZDaizy]

Oh c'mon...they spent a little while on Naboo alone together...you saw Naboo...it's a very romantic place ;)

Plus...who wouldn't fall in love with Hayden Christensen? :D

In the scene where Anakin talks about the Tusken Raiders, they cut out the part where he expresses remorse for what he's done, and Padme says "You're only human" I think Padme thinks she can "change" him.

[Doc Milo]

I think if they left in the parts on Naboo where they meet Padme's parents and family, it would have helped the love story along. They could have used that to gradually have her see the man and not the boy.

I, unlike other posts I have read, really have no problem with Padme being supportive of Anakin after the Tusken revelation scene. I always saw it as her at first being disgusted at what Anakin was telling her -- she cringes while he's revealing what he's done -- and then, seeing him break down after slumping to the ground, realizes that what he did was out of the rage of the moment, caused by the grief of losing his mother. I don't think she'd automatically assume he's some kind of monster for acting in such a way. She'd think his actions were monstrous, but that they were comitted in a rage of temporary insanity. That he breaks down and has trouble dealing with his actions, suggests to her that he is remorseful, and she comforts him.

But, I think that the depth of her understanding of him, and her feelings for him, could have been better served by leaving in the scene with Padme's family. That would have helped that later scene, and the scene where she reveals her love for him more natural.

[Jedieb]

I, unlike other posts I have read, really have no problem with Padme being supportive of Anakin after the Tusken revelation scene.
I did have a problem with that scene. I think the plot would have been better served if Anakin would have lied about his actions. He could have admitted to killing the males, but omitting the deaths of the women and children. My wife commented to me the other day, "Why would she want anything to do with him after he killed those women and children?" Think about it, are you going to go out for that second date after your date admits to killing a tribe full of women and children? Probably not. Is this how Padme talked things over with one of her girlfriends?
"So he killed a bunch of women and kids?"
"Yeah, but he was REALLY broken up about it. He even cried!"
"Oh girlfriend, you really need to give it up to that boy!"

If Anakin lies then you have something that Padmen could learn in EP3 that would serve as part of the reason for her leaving him and hiding the kids. I do think the family scenes would have helped the romance a great deal. In the novel, Padme and her sister discuss both Anakin's obvious attraction and Padme's future. When will she settle down, does she want to have kids, etc.?

[JMK]

So much was made of the fact that Padme's family was cast and we were going to meet them. Then finally not having them in the final movie was a drag. It totally would have made the romance more believable.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am thinking the scenes would have dragged the movie down, your talking 10-15 minutes there and it would have made it 2 and half hours by far the longest SW movie, that is my guess why they were cut, really I had no problem with them falling in love, because I feel she fell in love with him the minute she saw him again, much like Julliet fell in love with Romeo, I think that is the model that Lucas was using so I really had no problem with it nobody complains today about Julliet falling in love with Romeo so fast, is it realistic, not really buts its fiction and I can deal with it.

As far as the tusken stuff, I have been wondering about that, I bet there are a lot of people today that would have agreed with his actions, think about it on 9/11 there were a lot of people who said lets nuke the middle east, people back then were willing to kill women and children and to me its a similar thing. Really this shows how easy it is to turn to evil because it is in us all we all can go over the edge and commit evil acts.

[ReaperFett]

Romeo wasn't a mass murderer who is arrogant, snappy and even then still immature :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Romeo did kill the man (can't remember his name right now) who murdered his best friend and that act was out of revenge sure he is not a mass murderer. He is slightly immature but all guys are at that age ;) As far as the mass murderer bit as I said there would be people today that would condone his actions, actually that scene reminds me of the movie the Searchers where, John Wayne's characters kills Indians calling them nothing better than animals.

[Roddy Two]

Tybalt, who slew Mercutio.

[AZDaizy]

Yes! And Juliet cried for Romeo rather than Tybalt! Good show! :)

And like *I* said...Padme probably thinks she can change him...but no one listens to me so it's okay :(

[JMK]

I believe you AZ! Girls think they can change any guy! :lol

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yes and not only did she cry for Romeo she also quickly married him and had sex with him, I guess she really carred for her cousin :rolleyes Is just me or did Shakespear have a problem with women, in all of his tragedies they have a terrible end, Ophelia, never gets Hamlet goes nuts and kills herself. Julliet sees that Romeo just killed himself and that shoves a knife in her breasts, Lady Macbeth first pushes her husband to kill Duncan, then later on kills herself, then there is Macduff's wife who meets a tragic end and Desdemona is murdered by her Husband, Othello, then in the play Titus Andronicus (the grossest of all Shakespear's plays) the wife of the Emperor is pure evil, she has her sons kill the Emperor's brother and lets her sons rape Titus' daughter Lavinia, they then cut off her hands and tare out her tongue, at the end of the play Titus kills his daughter (I guess he didn't want here to suffer) and he kills the Emperor's sons and puts there bodies into a pie and feeds it to the Emperor and his wife (I told you it gets gross) I can't think of any others off hand, I think King Lear's daughters meet a tragic end too, but just can't remember what happens to them.

[AZDaizy]

It's not that she didn't care for her cousin...it's that she loved Romeo so much. So THERE!

And yeah...he had a problem with women, but Shakespeare was a genius.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I agree I love Shakespear I think it shows that I do since I know so much about his work. I think he is the greatest writer ever.