Jedi vs Sith (masked spoiler)

[Patrick]

I was thinking, and I found this very interesting...

TPM - Maul (Apprentice) kills Qui Gon (Experienced Jedi Knight), and Obi (Padawan) uses his anger (dark side) to defeat Maul.

AotC - Dooku (Apprentice) beats the living crap out of Obi (Experienced Jedi Knight) and Ani (Padawan, CHOSEN ONE), and puts up a very good fight with Yoda (Master).

ANH - Vader (Apprentice) kills Obi (Jedi Knight/Master, depends on Ep3)

ESB - Vader (Apprentice) beats up Luke (Jedi Trainee)

RotJ - Luke (Jedi Trainee) kills Vader (Lord by now)

The Sith come out on top in all of those situations where they are the lesser rank, until you get to RotJ, where Luke kills Vader, and he only trained for a few weeks/months under Yoda, who could barely walk. What is with this?!?

[JMK]

Despite the fact that Dooku and Vader were "apprentices" to Sidious, I think they could be considered masters. It's all part of Lucas' story. The up and coming Sith knock off the comfy, overconfident Jedi until the Sith are comfy and overconfident and the Jedi knock them off.

[Patrick]

ok, guess you have a point. And I know Vader/Dooku were higher ranked, I just wanted them to sound less experienced lol

[darth_mcbain]

Vader and Dooku were both Dark Lords of the Sith, the highest rank in their order. I consider their apprenticeship to Sidious to be in name only -- true, they were apprentices to Sidious, but I think their structure is "higher" than the Jedis. Since there are only 2 Sith at a time, there is only one apprentice, and he'd better be pretty good as all of the Master's influence is put on that one apprentice. Contrast that to the Jedi, where there are hundreds of apprentices (true, they are paired one on one with a Master), but it seems that a Jedi apprentice is so much more common than a Sith apprentice.

Two other things:

AotC - Dooku (Apprentice) beats the living crap out of Obi (Experienced Jedi Knight) and Ani (Padawan, CHOSEN ONE), and puts up a very good fight with Yoda (Master).

When did we ever see Anakin fight Yoda? You mean't Dooku, right?


ANH - Vader (Apprentice) kills Obi (Jedi Knight/Master, depends on Ep3)

According to the official site, Obi-Wan never attains the rank of Master. Now I wonder if it is because of lack of skills - or because the Jedi had more important things to worry about than granting titles in their waning days of Ep. III?

[Darth_Ytnom]

Obi Wan is a Master... Yoda even adresses him as Master Kenobi in AOTC.

[Doc Milo]

I remember reading in the novelization of AotC a scene where Anakin is contemplating things, and reveals that Obi-Wan, while he is Anakin's Master, is not a Jedi Master. So, when Obi-Wan is referred to as "Master" it is because he is training a Padawan; it is not the rank of "Jedi Master." Of course, that's the novelization, so it could be wrong.

And in TPM, Obi-Wan did not use the dark side to defeat Maul. He briefly gave into his anger and skirted on the edge of darkness during his fight with Maul, but that is when he was temporarily defeated by Maul. It is only after he lets go of his anger while hanging in that shaft that he is able to use the light side of the Force to defeat Maul.

If Obi-Wan had used the darkside to defeat Maul, he would have failed his trials, and not have attained the level of Jedi Knight.

[darth_mcbain]

Originally posted by Darth_Ytnom
Obi Wan is a Master... Yoda even adresses him as Master Kenobi in AOTC.

From the official site:

http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc/jocasta/askjc20020606.html


Q. Why was Obi-Wan always referred to as 'Master Kenobi' in Episode II? Doesn't he have only Jedi Knight status?

A. The term "Master" is occasionally used as an honorific to a teaching Knight -- especially by non-Jedi -- even if he has not yet achieved the status of Jedi Master. Obi-Wan Kenobi never achieves the formal rank of Jedi Master.

[JMK]

Good timing on that JC question eh Mcbain?

[darth_mcbain]

Yeah - Madame Jocasta comes in handy here and there - if you can put up with her attitude... ;)