A sensitive OOC topic: TSO

[Adm Garm Bel Iblis]

This is really, really long, but it's a subject that means a lot to me as a writer and contributor to the Star Wars community we are a part of...

As some of you guys may already know, I approached TSO a few weeks back with a proposal ... I wanted Corellia back. I had big plans in mind that would have incorporated fleets, NRSF, Intel, and Jedi in an epic on the scale of the original trilogy to gain back my character's homeworld, not to mention the most critical hyperspace lane junction in the galaxy.

The reason I took the approach of asking for consent is because IMO ... a campaign of that magnitude would be impossible without complete cooperation from beginning to end. Without consent it wasn't even worth doing. I was actually doing it out of respect ... Respect that no one ever bothered extending to the NR or GJO.

I expected to be met with hesitancy. I knew they wouldn't like it. But I was met with downright contempt. Viscera was the nicest, surprisingly. He said he didn't like the idea of the ending being scripted, but implied that he was willing to hear more. Lady Vader said flat out that she did not want to even risk the possibility of losing Corellia. Live Wire more or less told me to go to hell.

Now it wasn't like I wanted to do this for no reason or some adolescent power play. The Sith have been sitting on Corellia since day 1 of the boards and have never known defeat. I thought it would have made a great story and balanced the scales between good and evil for the first time ... well ever.

I am forced to somehow accept that the Jedi and NR were impotent enough to allow an evil, chaotic, dark-side worshipping cult to control the home of half the Rebellion. I refuse to accept that we have to just live with that same group holding military control over the sector, subjugating the people, and doubtless restricting trade, thereby creating a ripple effect on the entire galaxy.

But I'm not being given a choice. We try it, they'll pull out of fleets. Or ... Live Wire seems to think it's a foregone conclusion that we have no prayer of winning if we tried. But not even considering the opposition, she's basically letting me know that they will god-mode their asses off and ignore us as a threat.

Most likely they'll just pull out of fleets ... taking a page from TSE and claiming rights to Corellia by exploiting the rules. Now I got no complaint about TSE ... but that's because they are not sitting on such a significant piece of the Star Wars mythos. TSO on the other hand, is denying other players the ability to set their RP there and forcing my character to accept the impossible. It would be like Death Fleet putting a blockade on Tatooine. Luke would just let them? I don't think so.

But as shameless and pathetic as this blatent exploitation of a questionable rule would be, the mods will let them do it (at least one of them already said he would).

Here's what that long-winded spiel adds up to...

As far as I am personally concerned... I refuse to acknowledge that TSO is on Corellia. There is no reason I should have to be forced to accept something so utterly ridiculous. There is no way in hell my character would just sit back and cope with that, yet by the rules, I have to. Bull-DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR-.

The Corellian Sector is under the Diktat. Now granted, they aren't the most ideal replacement ... but at least they aren't SITH. As wierd as this might sound, even if it was TGE sitting on Corellia, from an OOC perspective, I'd be good with that. There wouldn't be this overriding NEED to save them from an evil-worshipping, power crazed cult.

On that note ... I have no OOC problem with TGE. They occupy Coruscant. The way they took it was questionable, but it was also like a year ago and it was RP'd. That's just the way it is, at least for now. This is not a broad statement about wanting to get my way or an attack on the board in general ... this is soley defiance of TSO.

I will not attack the home turf that TSO claims, because they simply are not there. I might engage them in the future (Kashykk is on my wish list), but I simply refuse to acknowledge their claim on -THAT- sector (Corellia). Their fleets operate out of Hutt space.

This is just my personal view. I would love to send a message to the mods by making this the official NR view, but I don't have the right to do that.

If someone else wants to waste their time with TSO in the future, feel free, but I won't participate. The group's spokesperson is beyond reason and not anyone I want to associate with, much less be forced to work with on a story. It's especially maddening with said spokesperson (Live Wire) doesn't even friggin DO anything on the boards except for chat (mostly bitch and rant) on the OOC board and the extremely rare post to a closed storytelling thread.

That's it ... finally. From this point on, if I am forced to make reference to Corellia in my RP ... it is an independent sector governed by a mini-dictatorship and a marginal ally of the NR. I won't go out of my way to mention them or advertise it, but that's where it stands.

[Xylon Ranthra]

Blatant and intentional god-moding should be met with swift and harsh punishment; end of story. If the moderation continues with biased negligence, any potential war should ascend far above IC antics, as you appear to suggest. The administration, on the other hand, sits for the betterment of SWfans as a whole, and seems to grant vindication to any matter requiring such. Regulations mean nothing if not upheld, and I believe that the imperative hierarchy is decent enough to realize this. At the very least, our set of rules is of their doing anyway.

If any RP is convoked, plainly, to be scrutinized for purity given its magnitude, I doubt it will be denied. If the moderation acts with ignorance, the administration will always rest on the tier above.

Moreover, LW is clearly ranting raw arrogance, and in no liberty shall she receive the benefit of the doubt. The fate of Corellia is out of her hands, and a glimmer of faint reasoning is out of her heart. With her palpable scale of rationality, action is limpid. No...she will regret her obnoxiousness. If not by naval superiority, then by yet an alternative method: substitutes wait simply to be picked.

There is no such thing as a "perfect defense," and especially when concentration lies towards one technique: in this sense, fleet combat. Instead, we should be looking into these parallel methods. To subdue without resistance would be a mere surrender for the Republic...we may fail with or without a fight, but prevailing will only come with a fight.

[Morgan Evanar]

If you really want Corellia... I'd say talk to Gav. As much as I like LV and LW... they're fuccing irrational when it comes to Corellia.

You might get Gav to bend, and neither LW or LV can fleet RP for beans.

[Adm Garm Bel Iblis]

Already tried that. In fact I approached him last year when I wanted this the first time around. He agrees with me... they have no business on Corellia and should not be there.

He did what he could, but it didn't matter. Ah well.

[Morgan Evanar]

Well, I'd be more than happy to be part of the landing force. I really don't think they could do too much about a properly executed thread.

[Xylon Ranthra]

Is Corellia not one of the planets containing a gravitational repulsor, such as the one both Talus and Tralus combine to form at the Centerpoint? Unless they've been abolished, it may be useful to a strike party...

[Adm Garm Bel Iblis]

No, see ... the point is they are not giving us the option OOC to do this.

Yes, there are definitely ways we can do this properly and succeed in reclaiming the sector. They have allies who would back them up, but we have countermeasures against them as well. Trust me, I thought this out before I even considered going through with it. It would be a hell of a fight, but I am more than confident that we would win.

But they've made the point moot. It would cause a big OOC stink that I will not take part in. And they would pull out of fleets and exploit the rules before accepting the possibility of losing Corellia.

So my point is, if they refuse to acknowledge us and refuse to engage in an RP that we have every right to start ... I refuse to acknowledge them.

[Xylon Ranthra]

Which brings us back to both the moderation and administration. If the loopholes are there to exploit, and they assert themselves explicitly to do so, I doubt that the means would be very clandestine.

Would they truly push aside their obligations?

[Cmdr Lafeyette]

Whether we have OOC permission or not, I feel it would be best to strike and weaken TSO's allies first, leaving them with less support. It's always better to take out sections of one large force one at a time, rather than attacking someone as a whole all at once.

[AdmiralAckbar247]

The military point of view: I agree with Lafayette. Although TSO fleet is a catalyst for cobweb and mothballs, we might want to concentrate our efforts on a strategy to reduce or neutralise the level of threat from some of our greater opponents. The disadvantage of going for TSO is, although Corellia and some other planets are a tempting target, it would leave our backs vulnerable for attack from the Conclave or TGE. At least, we should wait until we have a clear defined plan for pulling it out and there is an opportunity to keep other hostile fractions in check (Example: Two enemy fractions attacks each other).

OOC point of view: While I fully understand TSO are protective about their group HQ, I disapprove the "we dont like it, so we can godmode our way out of this" attitude.

The Jedi did not like being forced to leave Dagobah or see the Jedi Temple at Coruscant blown to bits. The NR did not like to leave Coruscant. TSE did not like to have their HQ attacked, forcing them to flee to Monte Cudro. RSO did not like seeing Cloud City burst into flames.

But, they put up with it

There are other examples too. Talus and Tralus were taken by TSO on a time while I was absent, but I 100% accepted that. Why? Because it was roleplayed out.

Corellia was IC location of New Republic Central Command, yet we (NR), accepted the fact Corellia had also been anexed by TSC (it was not properly roleplayed). To avoid OOC dispute with TSO, we kept our mouths shut. Itala on the other hand could only watch as TSC revolted and TSO claimed Corellia in posession. He may be regarded the biggest God-moder of all time, but he had to put up with that.

Some people forget what roleplay is about. It it is about interacting with others, using your imagination to craft stories and events that excites and entertains all of us. But it is also about giving and taking. Some times you lose, some times you win. If you take some, you better be prepared to give some in return. Admitting defeat, when you are clearly beaten instead of god-moding your way out of it, is sportsmanship.

One of the things I like about Gav is the open mind he has about RP proposals. He does not say "no, that is impossible" or "you cant do that", instead he would say, "lets work together on making this story and see what happens". If someone from TSE approaches me, proposing TSE attacks Yavin IV, I would not refuse, but say, "lets talk about it" or "go ahead, we will give you one heck of a fight!". What we definitely would not want to do is God-moding. That is falling to the lowest level. Either you play better than your opponent, or you dont.

The problem is (and this is a sad thing), despite the fact Corellia is an important planet in the SW universe, if no one except Gav is willing to discuss the idea, there is little point trying. I doubt it is going to be worth the OOC arguing. :(

[End of rant]

[Morgan Evanar]

Well, I'm a pro at OOC discussions, and maybe this would bring to light how irrational both LV and LW are about Correllia. They can bitch OOC all they like, but if we do everything legally, they can't really do to much about it but whine.

I don't know about you, but irrational whining can be pretty easy to ignore from my side. If we want it, lets get it.

Sure we didn't like giving up Dagobah, but I'd have to say we did so pretty gracefully.

It certainly won't make us look bad, we have tons of solid IC reasons to do it.

[Cmdr Lafeyette]

Right, they're no different from anyone else. If we do it, what are they going to say, "We're ignoring your god-moding because we didn't say you could do this." ?

And, before defecting, I overheard conversation about TGE and Death Fleet willing to assist TSO at a second's notice. Triple the threat and triple the complaints.

[Adm Garm Bel Iblis]

Re: The Conclave ... Adirmal Ackbar, please (re-)read or skim through the Conclave Sage intro thread (http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11745), then please check your email. I have information you will be very interested in.

Re: TGE ... It has always been assumed that TGE would back up TSO in a war. Viscera is a member of both. I also learned that Death Fleet will involve themselves as well. Like I said, it would be a hell of a fight ... but we have allies of our own to counteract that.

On a note in TSO's defense, they have not come out and said, quote: "We will god-mode to keep the planet" ...That's my interpretation of LW's obstinance on the issue. Viscera's only problem was the scripted ending I proposed ... but he did not reply when I changed the question to "Would you consider it if we tried it". Vader is behind me to the same point (he'd be willing, but not for a scripted ending). Gav no longer participates in fleet RPs because they got so stupid.

But LW -did- say flat out, quote: "TSO will pull out of fleets to avoid losing Corellia if it comes to that." Lounge-dude keeps telling me that the group is in agreement with LW. But, I'm sorry ... I won't believe that until I hear it from them directly without LW being online to persuade them. I think there's just too many people not wanting to deal with it and kissing her ass.

We have a choice, then. We could start the campaign, and see if they will come to their senses and allow it ... or we could make the public statement that we disavow their presence on Corellia because of their unwillingness to RP. I still feel that no matter how well we play it out, it will eventually come down to CONSENT that they will not grant and OOC bickering over pointless minutia. But we can try.

If we do, we have to consider what we will do if they punk out and exploit the "no fleet no plantary takeover" rule. Personally I don't think this rule should apply to a system as significant as Corellia.

I want to close by pointing out that I never intended to strike Corellia directly up front. That would be suicide. The basic strategy is this:

1) Drop a sleeper team onto Corellia sector holdings over the course of several months. I already have fleet mod consent for that as long as I RP out the "infiltrations" and give the character's some background. This sleepter team might be ideal for Tondry's Tau team.

2) During this time, we harrass the bottlenecks in TSO's holdings. They have a big cluster in the Corellian Sector, a big cluster in Hutt Space, and handful of smaller holdings in the surrounding areas (Kashyyk) and some between (planets I can't find on the published SW maps).

3) TSO will either spread its fleet out to defend these middle holdings, or give them up and cluster themselves even more and give up those planets. Either way, once the sleeper team is in place, we liberate Tynna as a launch site for the final operation in their back yard. TGE and TSO are the same force as far as I'm concerned. We'll end up fighting both in the end anyway.

4) Nibble away at the Corellian Sector, starting with the twin asteroids. For story purposes ... I have always assumed that Centerpoint Station is not the superweapon-level threat that it was in the Corellian Trilogy. I'm thinking of it just as a place where Corellian citizens work and live.

5) Jump into the Corellian sector and give them a chance to leave the planet peacefully. I have no problem letting them worship the Dark Side from Hutt Space.

6) This part will require consent ... I would love to get Jedi to infiltrate Titan. This would force that big mother ship to divide it's attentoin between stopping the Jedi and fighting the fleets outside. Ideally if they could make it to the bridge and take them out of the fight completely.

7) Another part that will require consent is that I want to get a slicer to tap into the holonet system surrounding Corellia to a) cut them off and b) allow us to broadcast that the time for revolt is now.

8 ) Yet another part that would require consent is that I honestly can't see how EVERY pilot is completely blind loyal to TSO. A good percentage of them have to be Corellian by birth. Pardon me a moment of ego here ... but how much of their fleet would defect of the legendary war heros Garm Bel Iblis, Wedge Antilles, and Corran Horn showed up in force ready to free them?

9) The sleeper team we planted on Corellia takes down the planetary shield. Through that hole we drop a starfighter and airspeeder task force to keep the surface defense units busy while the Peregrine reduces the TSO temple to rubble from orbit. Yeah that's pretty Imperial, but these are evil-worshipping Sith we're talking about.

There are a million variables and a bunch of smaller points that will need to be addressed in between, but it's very doable. And it will require the resources of the ENTIRE NR. While 1 or 2 of our fleets are engaging, we'll need the others ready to deploy for the expected counterattacks on other NR member worlds.

This campaign will go the whole 9 meters and take everything we have. I'll need Lafayette to keep us a step ahead of Death Fleet. We'll need a diplomat to coordinate with our allies (secret and otherwise). There will be room for Jedi, Intel, and NRSF in this as well as ship movements.

Either way, this operation will not even begin for quite some time. We have to be 100% organized and ready to roll as a single team. A key ally also needs to be in position to engage in a war of this magnitude.

But again I have to come back to ... if during or at the end of all this, TSO tries to punk out on us, what do we do?

[Cmdr Lafeyette]

9) The sleeper team we planted on Corellia takes down the planetary shield. Through that hole we drop a starfighter and airspeeder task force to keep the surface defense units busy

I'd be willing to have the GTTF be that sleeper team/starfighter force. It fits our job description, though we'll need weeks of training and experiance before hand(smaller & less important operations).


I'll need Lafayette to keep us a step ahead of Death Fleet.

I'm one step ahead of you, too. Already planning a roleplay involving Lafeyette with them.

[Morgan Evanar]

NRSF would never qualify as a sleeper team.. I'm glad someone else is already set up for this. =p

[Cmdr Lafeyette]

NRSF, sleep? lol

[Marcus QDunn]

Ay Ay Ay....

Lemme try to get my head around this.....


No I cant. I think I have a headache.


Look, if TSO have NOT withdrawn from fleets at the time of an attack then it's SOL.

I feel uncomfortable that a major SW planet could be claimed anyway. I have no problem with something of no real importance claimed (Arcan IV, Mortu Cordu, Vjun), but Corellia?!?! That's like annexing Coruscant, cant be done, it's too major.

Agh. Head hurts.

Vis is actually a resonable person, especially if your willing to discuss with an open mind.