What sends Anakin over the edge? [masked spoilers]

[Phantom]

What is the one defining moment that sends Anakin to the Dark Side besides the death of his Mother ? Something huge has to happen for him to turn and be the primary part in the Jedi purge, personally I think its the death of Padme and maybe the lack of emotion from the Council, plus the temptation of Palpatine.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I think part of it might be Palpatine's manipulation, as far as Padme, I don't see her dying until the end (or they could leave it murky and have Yoda say she will die soon) so it would be hard for it to happen that late in the story, now he might think she is dead that is possible. Or Palpatine might manipulate him into thinking using the darkside to save Padme and his friends like he tried with Luke in ROTJ.

[ReaperFett]

I dont think she'll die. Leia remembered her mother. THe last timeline we got put EP3 18 years before ANH, which is the birth time. I cant see her going

[BUFFJEDI]

NO but I bet padme goes into hiding (per jedi orders) when they find out the is with child.And palpy tells Anikin that she is dead.

[Jedieb]

Padme's death seems like too important an event to have happen off screen, doesn't it? I think there has to be some resolution of her fate. We just can't have her in EP3, then absent in ANH and ESB and then have her casually mentioned in Luke and Leia's Endor conversation. What answers did that provide? She's too important a character for her fate not to be shown on screen, or at least explained. If she is somehow alive at the end of EP3 then the audience will have to told what her fate will be. I just can't imagine leaving EP3 and not knowing how or when she dies.

[Doc Milo]

Yes, but Padme's death being what sends Anakin over the edge seems to be out of sequence. She will have had to have given birth already (obviously) and since Anakin will not have turned before that event (If it is Padme's death that is the final thing that drives him over the edge) then there would have been no need to hide the twins from him . . . he would have known that he had children. I don't believe he knew he had children at all, but even if it is argued that he knew he had at least a son, he definitely does not know that he had a daughter as well, we know that from RotJ. Why hide the kids from him before his fall? That's why I think Padme's death is not the turning point.

I think the seeds are sown in TPM and in AotC as to what will cause his ultimate fall. Namely, his impatience, especially his impatience with Obi-Wan. And the fact that he has tasted the power of the dark side in the tusken attack, as well as seen what Dooku can do. I believe that Palpatine has been corrupting Anakin for a while (much was made of Anakin talking to Palpatine about Palpy's previous "guidence") and will continue to do so. He might even pit Anakin against Dooku (Anakin may want revenge because Dooku took his arm. I think it is significant that Anakin has that heavy metal appendage rather than the cybornetic implant that Luke got in ESB. Anakin may have to learn to live with that thing for a while, and may feel like taking vengence on Dooku for taking his arm. Palpatine will provide that final showdown, a scene that mirrors Luke/Vader. Only Anakin will fail where Luke succeeded -- because he already gave into that anger and killed from that anger in AotC. Just my opinion though.

[JMK]

I agree, I don't think anything else will happen to Anakin, I can't imagine anything happening to Padme on screen, I think the seeds are planted, and he just spirals out of control from here. I think ultimately, Sidious will pit Anakin against Dooku, and Anakin will kill him and then Obi Wan will confront Anakin, that the rest will be history.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think we don't have to see her death, Yoda or maybe some deceased Jedi in spirt will tell Obi-Wan that she will die soon, I am guessing of a broken heart. The reason why I think that is Leia remembers her and there is no way she could remember her as a baby she had to be at least 2 years old I think or close to it. Otherwise that whole line in ROTJ won't make any sense.

[Jedieb]

I don't think that Padme's death will be the final straw, I was just commenting about her death and how it will be explained or shown. For all we know, Anakin may have already been pushed over the edge. The Dark Side was certainly with him when he massacred the Tusken Raiders. My god, he killed women and children! Palpy would have been proud of him. As for what will make him renounce the light and assume the name of Darth Vader, who knows. It may or may not happen before he puts on Vader's mask. I expect to see a duel with both Dooku and Obi-Wan. Either one could push him over the edge. Maybe Padme will leave Anakin because of the evil growing inside him. Her abandoning him could certainly push him over. And it would explain how he never knew about the twins. Whatever happens, darkness and evil will be more prevalent in EP3 than in any other SW movie.

[JMK]

The big question is, are we ready for it? o_O
I don't know if I am yet, I really like Anakin and I don't know how I feel about the upcoming events of Episode 3!

[Live Wire]

I dont see padme's death being a factor either. Cause leia remembered her mother as being "very beautiful, but sad." No doubt she was sad over the fate of anakin. Episode two I think defined rather well why anakin goes to the dark side. Padme's death I think is a result of him becoming darth vader.

[Figrin D'an]

Pure speculation, but here's how I think things will play out:

Padme's death won't be shown... again, Leia's memory of her mother pretty much sets that up, since Leia was only about 18-19 in ANH, and Episode III will take place 18 years before ANH. Padme will, however, decide to leave Anakin, at the urging of Yoda and Obi-Wan, when she discovers that she is pregnant. At that point, I think Anakin will be so close to completely succumbing to the Dark Side that Padme will fear for her life and the lives of her unborn children. She leaves and goes into hiding, prehaps assisted by Bail Organa. Meanwhile, Palpatine/Sidious continues to manipulate Anakin's emotions, eventually pitting him against Dooku in a duel to the death. Anakin, having become much more powerful since his first encounter with Dooku, will defeat the Count, and Sidious will give Anakin the same choice he gives Luke in ROTJ... strike him down and take his place as Sidious' new apprentice. Anakin will do so.... he will kill Dooku and become a Sith at that point, just the opposite of Luke coming a Jedi when he casts away his sabre and refused to kill his father. Sidious/Palpatine will then convince Anakin that Padme's child (they assume only one child) could be a threat to the Sith, because that child would be the son/daughter of the Chosen One. Anakin attempts to track down Padme, but is intercepted by Obi-Wan, and the major duel that we have all been anticipating, between master and former apprentice, will ensue. Anakin will have surpassed Obi-Wan in shear ability by this time, but as his former master, Obi-Wan will still know Anakin's combat tendancies, and will defeat him. Anakin, in one manner or another, will be physcially maimed as a result (the popular theory seems to be that he will fall into a lava pool). The audience, at this point, will be made to believe that Anakin is dead. However, we will be shown a scene, near the end of the film, in which Sidious/Palpatine will provide an introduction of his new apprentice: Darth Vader. This way, the revelation in ESB, that Vader is Luke's father, will be maintain. (And the theoretical person that has never seen the original trilogy will gasp and say, "Oh my God, that's Anakin! He survived!"). We also won't actually see the birth of the twins... we may see a scene of Obi-Wan delivering a baby Luke to Owen and Beru, but that will be it... This preserves the revelation of Luke's & Leia's shared parentage.


'k... I think that is it... lol... :)

[Admiral Lebron]

I think that that is fairly good guess. I personally think that Padme will leave Anikan in fear of her unborn children. She runs off with Obi-wan on a ship and he takes her off to wherever. Anikan, trying to get Padme back follows her, sees her run go off with Obi-wan and gets angry. He gets angry but Palpatine interfers, and gets his mind focused on other stuff. Luke and Leia are born. Padme flees to Bail Organa and hides there until her death.

Meanwhile, Obi-Wan is delivering Luke to Owen and Beru on tatooine, when Anikan meets up with them. A nice saber battle ensues and Anikan falls into a vat of chemicals(or a lava pit), Obi-wan leaving him for dead runs off to finish getting Luke to Owen Larrs.

Anikan's last thoughts are of betrayal from his father-figure and his lover. Also he knows he has a son. Palpatine, not far behind rescues him. After Ani has been restored, Palpatine decides to take Ani/Vader on as his Apprentice. This enrages Dooku who goes after Palpatine.

Due to his failing health from the darkside's toll on his body, he is struck down hastily by dooku. Vader, feeling he owes his life to Palpatine attacks and another lightsaber battle follows. Vader kills dooku and learns that Palpatine is still an essance. He has a clone made for him and that is the possible end of Episode III.

[CMJ]

For the record....Figrin's scenario kicks ass. :)

[Xazor Elessar]

Yes, I agree that Figrin's scenario is pretty awesome. That is basically what I think will happen also. After analzying all of the movies thus far, and piecing important details together, that is what I have come up with also. :) Very well said! :)

[JMK]

I think Figrin's scenario is cool too, but here's my twist to it:Padme will infact leave Anakin out of fear for her children, and at the urging of the council. She will flee with Obi-Wan to wherever, but Palpatine will tell Anakin that she and Obi Wan have betrayed her and are now in love. Of course this will set Anakin off, and he goes out after Obi Wan because he still loves Padme, and by extension, his children. To me, Anakin was never altogether pure evil, but rather insecure, and a control freak, and needs to feel powerful. Hence his hatred of Obi Wan and his compassion for his offspring.

[Doc Milo]

The only problem I see with Figrin's scenario is: I don't think Anakin will know that he has any children whatsoever. I don't think he will know that he has had children until some time between ANH and ESB, when he discovers the identity of the pilot that destroyed the Death Star. Putting 1 and 1 together -- the name of the pilot is Luke Skywalker, who he himself felt was strong in the Force, and all the other circumstances -- like having Obi-Wan appear on the Death Star onboard a ship that came out of Tatooine, etc... -- this causes Vader to realize the depth of Obi-Wan's deception. This is when he realizes he has a son. We see on screen when he finds out about his daughter.

I believe this because I don't see Anakin not being able to find Luke in the 18-20 years that take place between ep3 and ANH. Luke is hiding on Anakin's home planet, and he hasn't changed his name from Skywalker. I think this "hiding in plain sight" strategy can only be helpful if no one is looking for him. If Anakin knew he had a son, he would definitely have been searching for him in those 18-20 years....

[Live Wire]

I agree with figrin's speculation. That seems to make a lot of sense as well as doc's alteration. I'd love to see it play out that way. Oh man I've got to wait three years. Damn you george lucas!!!

[Figrin D'an]

That is a possibility, Doc... however, another slight twist could be this : Anakin knows that Padme is with child, but he is made to believe that Padme was killed before the child was born... that could be part of the deception when Padme goes into hiding... it could be a plan concocted by Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Bail Organa to keep Padme safe, but Obi-Wan decides that he must face Anakin on his own... perhaps he feels he must atone for allowing Anakin to fall to the Dark Side...

Obi-Wan's line in ROTJ does give support to your idea, though, Doc... "If Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him..."

Either way, I have to agree that Anakin won't know about his children until after the first Death Star is destroyed...

[Shawn]

I like the idea of keeping the whole Anakin/Vader thing a secret until ESB, but I don't think it'll happen. I mean, heck - just about every piece of AOTC merchandise announces how Anakin will one day become Darth Vader... even the potato chips!

[Jinn Fizz]

I do think that Anakin is going to lose Padme in some fashion in Episode III, with a lot of the speculation here being quite believable as to how it will play out.

The reason why I think losing Padme will help push Anakin even farther across to the Dark Side is Palpy's line early in AOTC, said to Padme..."To lose you would be unbearable."

[JMK]

Palpatine is SUCH a snake. I hope when all of this is done,3 years from now, he goes down as one of cinemas greatest villains, if he isn't already.

[Jinn Fizz]

I agree, watching Palpy manipulate everyone around him, without anyone even really understanding what he's doing, is one of the great joys of the prequels so far. Ian McDiarmid is a truly gifted actor who has created one of the most memorable villains in movie history.

i also love Palpy's final scene, where he's holding court over the whole clone army, with the ships that will become star destroyers taking off and the Imperial March playing on the soundtrack. Truly a goosebumpy moment. I also noticed one little detail in that scene on my third viewing that I had missed the first two times...Jimmy Smits as Bail Organa, looking grim, giving the balcony a slight punch with his fist and slightly shaking his head, as if to say, "I can't believe it came to this, this is just so bad...." A nice touch, I think.

[Shawn]

Didja notice the Royal Imperial Guards in that scene? They're rather hard to see, but they're there.

[Admiral Lebron]

I didn't notice the Crimson gaurds there... if thats what your talking about, but I did notice them when they were in his office one of the times.

[JMK]

As soon as I saw those Imperial Guards I thought "This is Star Wars baby!" I love those guys, but I guess it rules out them being clones if they're already in service.

[Rama]

Alright here is mine. Ok.....I think Anakin has to think his children have died. Cause he never goes looking for them. I mean it wouldn't be much of a Strech to check your Step Brothers place if your Pregant wife ran off. I think the only reason he never found look is cause he wasn't looking for him.


Ok here is my take on how things will unfold.....I think Palpatine will tell Anakin that Padme has died while pregant and that either Obi-Wan killed her or she died as a result of his actions. I think he also blames the Jedi, but Obi-Wan is his main Target. Anakin knows he cannot best his Master in battle...so Palpatine offers him a way to do so. To follow the Dark Path and unlock his true power. And in a kinda an Anti-ESB we see really what it is like to be trained as a Sith.


Meanwhile the Tension is building in the Clone Wars and it's all leading to one big battle. Troops are gathering and what not. But the Republic has a new weapon that will put this battle to an end once and for all. Now im not thinking will see the Death Star....I was more thinking a Prototype Super Laser mounted on a Ship or something. Obi-Wan begins to worry about Anakin....then The Spirt of Qui-Gon comes to him with a Revaltion(Following the ROTJ pattern) that Anakin has turned to the darkside and that Padme and himself are in danger.


Back with Palpatine Anakin has been trained and must face one final trial .....he must kill Dooku. Anakin now with his new Dark Side skills does this easly. Palpatine is very please. Anakin takes Dooku's place and leads the Droid Armies across the Star System towards Courscant.


What is left of the Jedi are Gathered together to help fight in this one last battle, even Obi-Wan. They do not know that Dooku has been replace an assume he is still leading the troops. Most of the Senators leave Courscant to escape the coming battle. Padme cannot go back to Naboo as it is to dangerous so she escapes with Bail Organa.


The Republic decided to cut them off before they reach Courscant and to attack the gathering armies. This would be on some kind of Volcanic planet. The Battle breaks out on the surface and in space....as the new Mass Produced Republic TIE fighters flown by clone pilots make quick work of the Droid fighters and the new Superweapon makes short work of the Trade Federation Battle cruisers. Below the same is happening, the Droid as being easly beaten. But the Jedi are not faring as well.......A lone Sith is killing Jedi left and Right. MAce Windu and Obi-Wan go to contront this new Sith. IN a Darth Maul/OBi-Wan/Qui-Gon like battle Mace and Obi fight Anakin. Anakin kills Mace and moves in for the kill on Obi, the battle moves underground to caves cut out from Lava. Obi-Wan beats Anakin and Anakin falls into the lava....Obi tries to save him, but cannot get to him in time. Obi-Wan thinks Anakin is dead. He quickly returns to the battle which is drawing to close.


Later on Anakin is found by Clone tropper and Rushed to Palptines awaiting Startship.


Yoda and Obi-Wan, now the last 2 Jedi know that they survial of the Jedi depends on Padme's Children. So they seperate them to increase their chances of Survial. Obi-Wan takes Luke to his Step Uncle and Yoda gives leaves Leia in the care of Bail Organa. Yoda and Obi-wan agree that when the time it right the twins will be brought to Yoda and trained in the Jedi arts.


Meanwhile......Palpatine declares himself Emperor to ensure the Unity of the Republic, and that now that the Clone Wars are over that they will raise a great Empire from the Ashes of the Old Republic.


The last scene we see is Palpatine returning from this speech to a lab of some sort and then a great Oxygen Chamber opens(like the one in ESB only bigger) and Vader comes out with his mask on. A Royal Guard comes forward with the back part of the helment and gives it to Palpatine. ANd it goes something like this:

Palptine: Anakin Skywalker is no more........Kneel

Anakin: Yes my master(in full James Earl Jones goodness)

Palpatine: and Arise Darth Vader.


and then he places the Helment on him and Vader stands up and we get a good sound of him breathing.






I think Boba Fett will be in here as well.......After all that clones have Accelrated Growth. So I figure he'll be aroun 17 or 18 and will have doned his fathers Armor.

[JMK]

Not bad Rama! There are endless possibilities for what can happen, and I'm sure that what we've come up with here will be in some way correct. I hope George manages to surprise us though.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I like some of it Rama but I would rather have Mace killed by the Emperor maybe have Boba Rat him out and Palpatine kills him showing off his full power so that way we know just how powerfully he is. I also think that Anakin knew nothing about children and he believes Padme is dead, now as far as when Padme actually dies, I don't know it happen off screen and we get some words from Yoda or Qui-Gon that she will not live long.

[Figrin D'an]

I still think that the secret of Vader's true identity will be preserved until ESB... Lucas said that he wanted those surprises in ESB and ROTJ to be maintained for someone watching the complete story, all 6 episodes, in chronological order. If it isn't done, it really takes the wind out of those scenes in which Luke learns of his parentage, and finds out Leia is his sister.

So, I really don't see there being a clear cut scene in which Anakin is "rescued" after his big battle with Obi-Wan... it will be critical that the audience believe that Anakin is dead, and then have a seperate introduction of Darth Vader... perhaps with a little hint as to Vader's origin (ie. the breathing that is heard in certain scenes of Anakin's throughout the prequels).

Also... Obi-Wan and Yoda will have to find out, at some point, that Anakin survived, because they both know Vader's true identity during the time of the original trilogy. That's something that will probably be dismissed as happening "off-screen", at some point during the 18 year gap between Episode III and ANH.

I have a feeling that we could end up with a whole new realm of EU books that cover the years between Episodes III & IV, because there will be a lot of unanswered questions, like what I mentioned above...

[JMK]

I don't think it's critical that audiences believe that Anakin is dead and gone. I think he should go the ESB route when he reveals to Luke that he's his father. I can picture Lucas giving the impression that Anakin has died, but leaving the audience saying, well, did he die? He will want us to debate something...

[Jedieb]

These are all great scenarios (I really like yours Firgrin.) This is going to be part of the fun/torture of the next few years. Wondering how this is all going to finally play out. It's pretty amazing that a story that we basically already know the ending to can still have so many surprises for us. Here are a few things I expect to see;


The Lake of Lava
I think we are DEFINITELY going to see this. It's a location that Lucas wanted to use in ROTJ, but it just didn't work out. There was even a reference to it in the ROTJ novelization. I think we may see it as some kind of underground lair that Palpy has on Coruscant. That's where I think we'll see the confrontation between Obi-Wan and Anakin. At first I thought that the only way Obi-Wan could emerge victorious was by sheer luck. Some accident that luckily gives him a narrow victory after Anakin thoroughly trashes him. Because if Anakin is powerful enough to defeat Dooku in EP3, then that means his power and skills rival Yoda. That's a level of power I don't think Obi-Wan will ever reach.
Leia's memory of her mother
This is far fetched, but what if Leia's memory isn't of her mother, but of one of her handmaidens? That could be something Lucas could use if he felt it necessary to kill Padme off. I still think we need to see or know that Padme death is coming. It just can't be left to ROTJ for us to hear her death mentioned.


The big question is, are we ready for it?
I don't know if I am yet, I really like Anakin and I don't know how I feel about the upcoming events of Episode 3!
I never thought I'd feel that way, but after seeing Hayden's Anakin, I feel the same way JMK does. I was always kind of dissapointed whenever I would hear rumors that James Earl Jones was only going to be doing Vader for the last 15 minutes of EP3. I wanted to see Vader for half, if not most of the movie. But after seeing Hayden's Anakin, I really want to see him as Anakin for the majority of the movie. I would even like to see him assume the name of Darth Vader BEFORE he's forced to don the armor. Nevertheless, his transformation has begun. He didn't just lose a wrist, he lost a good chunk of that arm. He is slowly starting to become "more machine than man, twisted and evil."
MAN, I AM SOOOOOOO LOVING THIS MOVIE!!!!

[CMJ]

I agree...the more I think about, the better it gets. Truly a treat....

[JMK]

As much as I love seeing SW in the theater, I can't wait to have the DVD in my hand to watch at my leisure. With all the commentary...whoo...I gotta cool off....

[Jedieb]

Guys, we have to dig up this thread 3 years from now. Just to see how close some of us came to figuring out how EP3 turned out. :D

[JMK]

:lol
I wish we could go back a couple years, because I remeber predicting that Stormtroopers are clones. Now this isn't a fact yet, but it's pretty damn close. I don't know how many other people predicted that, but I remember that there weren't that many.

I also said that Shmi was going to die but I think everyone knew that anyway. Hopefully this thread can be dug up in 3 years.

[Jedi Master Carr]

As far as Padme I think it would be fine if Yoda reveals that he sees her dying in the near future because of a broken heart, I guess she could also get some kind of illness that will kill her soon too, because if he went the handimand approach than what was the point of having Leia's answer to Luke about her real mother. That is just my feeling on it though, there are several ways he can go with that, maybe the film encompas more than a year of time and in that case it would be possible.

[JMK]

A couple years back I said that we would not see Padme die onscreen, but that she would continue to have assasination attempts on her life. Maybe she is poisoned and dies a slow slow death, slow enough that Leia does remember her. I could also accept Yoda saying that she will die in the near future. He's always right. ;)

Plus let's remember what we're already in store for in Episode 3;
-Anakin's final turn to the dark side.

-The death of all the Jedi that we love. Mace, Ki Adi Mundi, Plo Koon, all of them.

-The rise of the Empire, the end of democracy.

-Not to mention the deaths of many other characters.

The death of Padme may be too much for some of us to handle!

[Shawn]

Jedieb: Please remember to put the spoiler tags inside the quote tags. Nothing major there, but I just thought I'd remind you. :)

[Marcus Telcontar]

Interesting discussion :)



Well, not a spoiler as such, but who knows. Personally, I would think somewhere along the line Yoda reveals he knows exactly who Palpatine is and I would think they will fight. Actually, That's wishful thinking! Yoda and Palpatine having a Force battle would be really something, wouldnt it?

I dont think Padme will die offscreen. I also think that Anakin will be tricked into thinking any offspring of Padme's is not his. Which of course would spark off the anger.... Definantly agree Dooku will be bought down by Anakin, who then faces Obi Wan.

Also remember that Lucas says Ep III will be dark and a tragety. So I think be prepared for a lot of death and I bet Padme will be one who does die. I dunno how, but I think she will.

[JMK]

I don't know if I'd be able to sit through that. If they do, then they better explain the fact that Leia remembers her. And not trying to make us think that the force kept her memories, even though she was less than a year old or something. Maybe a handmaiden could look after her, and that I might be able to swallow.

[Doc Milo]

I still think that the secret of Vader's true identity will be preserved until ESB... Lucas said that he wanted those surprises in ESB and ROTJ to be maintained for someone watching the complete story, all 6 episodes, in chronological order. If it isn't done, it really takes the wind out of those scenes in which Luke learns of his parentage, and finds out Leia is his sister.

I hope Lucas finds a way to do it, but I think it is going to be more difficult than merely never showing Anakin get rescued, and then the appearance of Vader. It's going to have to take Obi-Wan taking on a second pupil that shows dark tendencies -- the having Obi-Wan lose that pupil in an ambiguous way.

Why do I say this? One line from ANH: "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, help the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father."

So . . . not only will we need to see Obi-Wan with another pupil aside from Anakin, we will have to see this pupil betray the Jedi, and the duel that leaves Anakin for dead will have to be one between Obi-Wan's pupil and Anakin, not between Obi-Wan and Anakin, in order for anyone watching 1-6 to not suspect something suspicious when Obi-Wan tells Luke about how his father "died."

About the possible death of Padme. What if the final few scenes take place two years after Anakin's final fall. What if, for the sake of keeping the secret that she had children, Padme tries to bring down Palpatine, and Palpatine kills her in front of Anakin using Force lightning? So then, when Vader sees Luke writhing in pain in the throes of the Emperor's force lightning, he is not only seeing Sidious frying his son, but remembering what was done to his wife...just a thought. I think that her death will be off-screen. I think we may discover that she spends the rest of her days on Alderaan with Bail Organa and his family. So when Alderaan is destroyed in ANH, most everyone assumes Padme died with it...

[JMK]

I thought about this a little more, and I'm thinking the line "I wasn't strong enough to save you Mom, but I promise you I won't fail you again". is very telling. Anakin feels that he has the power to do whatever he pleases, and will screw the rules in order to keep his promise, and in effect, he will descend to the dark side because of his lack of control over his power. His need to control the outcome of everything, and his fear of failing will be his undoing.

[Ilsid Rector]

Doc...

I don't think Obi Wan is going to take on a 'second apprentice' after Anakin leaves him.

Remember, right now, the Jedi start off as Padawan with a Master pretty young.

Obi Wan's story is just a way of telling the truth without telling the truth.

Darth Vader will be a young jedi who turned to evil, and when he emerges, Anakin will be betrayed and 'dead.'

[Doc Milo]

I understand what Obi-Wan's tale to Luke is. That wasn't the question we were discussing.

The question was whether or not Lucas can write episode iii in a way that preserves the surprise that Darth Vader and Anakin are one and the same. One of the problems Lucas will run into when doing this is that line in ANH, where Obi-Wan tells Luke that Darth Vader was a pupil of his, until he turned to evil. When the audience hears that, they will say, "Wait a minute. Obi-Wan is lying. He never had any other pupil aside from Anakin..." and then it will hit them, and the surprise will be lost...

[JMK]

Yup, George's got some explaining to do!!!

[CMJ]

Actually Doc...I think that statement COULD have be construed by the audience as Kenobi being like "I don't wanna tell this kid I killed his father."

The reason why it can't...is Vader ALSO makes reference to the fact that ObiWan is his old master. Now it'll be impossible to mantain this secret.

[JMK]

True, I'm sure Obi Wan wouldn't want Luke to hate him even before he starts training him. Luke seems to have a soft spot for the father he never met, and to be face to face with his "killer" wouldn't make for glad tidings...

[CMJ]

Exactly...so the only thing that can't be explained away is Vader calling Kenobi "My old Master." Lucas is in an impossible situation there.

[Jedieb]

I really see no way to preserve the shock of "Vader's Revelation." It just can't be done. There are going to be signs all over the prequels that point to Anakin becoming Darth Vader. When Lucas cranked out the OT, all he had was an outline of a backstory. He didn't have any of the details we take for granted fleshed out. He can tie all 6 movies together, but I think it's going to be impossible for things like Vader's identity and Leia's parentage to be kept as surprises. From everything I've read, Lucas didn't even finalize the decision to make Leia the 'other' Skywalker until the script writing process for Jedi was well under way. We had 2 death stars at one point, the Final Duel taking place on Coruscant, Obi-Wan coming back from the dead and taking on a material form and fighting Vader once again. The story could have taken a VERY different turn from what we know. If the OT was in such a state of flux, you can imagine where the prequel backstory was.

[JMK]

I hope that Lucas realizes that this is going to be so hard for him to tie together realistically. I hope that he doesn't go ahead and try to conceal everything and make it so prone to plot holes and doubt that everyone, fans included find it hard to watch.

[CMJ]

Yeah...no kidding Jedieb. I mean remember when I posted the original intent of epidodes 4-9? Lucas seemed to be mixing and matching story ideas until the last second.

I do think Leia's parentage can be kept a secret...just not Luke's. But that's another debate. :)

[Doc Milo]

Plus, I think preserving that secret might have an adverse affect on the power of the tragedy of Anakin's fall, and thus end up having an adverse affect on the power and emotion in his redemption...

[JMK]

Good point, aren't we supposed to know that Anakin becomes Vader? So that we feel sorrow for him and pity his fall from grace? If that's kept a secret and then dropped upon us on ESB, then that puts a whole different spin on the saga.