Elections in the Netherlands

[Jedi Master Carr]

What is this about Europe, first France and now the Netherlands, some right wing group, the name escapes me, won like 26 seats in the Dutch parliament. I haven't read much else but maybe Dutchy can fill us in since he has the most knowledge living in The Netherlands. Still this really scares me is there a rise in Fascist beliefs happening in Europe? I know Neo-Fascism is on the rise in Austria, popularity of the extreme right is risen in France, and now the Netherlands. Surprisingly Germany hasn't been hit yet, though give it time I guess. I wonder if it is in part because of the whole EU and also because of the rise in immigration. Still, I am hopeful that this is just a temporary thing.

[CMJ]

I think we all do Carr...remember the past.

[Jedi Master Carr]

As a scholar of history I don't believe that history repeats itself, I do believe that people can make similar mistakes in the past. Really though what concerns me the most is that the Netherlands is the most liberal country in Europe (light drug laws, legalized prostitution) and plus the economy has been pretty good according to the news reports and then something like this happens. What really worries me is what if the economy goes bust in Europe or here could Fascism be on the rise again in the World. It is just something that concerns me a lot because I can't see why anybody would want to vote for the idology that helped to kill millions in WW II. With this in mind I just thought of an interview that I heard Lucas say that democracies become dictatorships because the people let it, they give the power to the dictator, and in that regard I think he is right.

[ReaperFett]

From how I see it, the problem is people are getting a bit annoyed about Asylum Seekers, so some are looking to the ones saying they wont be letting them in

[Jedieb]

From what I've read and heard, immigration seems to be a major problem in Europe. Refugees and immigrants from Africa and the Middle East have been pouring into Europe in the last decade or so. Some of the countries are having problems with the economic and social strain associated with a large influx of immigrants. Many extreme right candidates have been exploiting the problems and gaining momentum and popularity.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
haven't read much else but maybe Dutchy can fill us in since he has the most knowledge living in The Netherlands.

Definitely, and you know what? Other countries know jack schitt about us. Grrr... it makes me mad reading all the BS in this topic.

Well, let me first explain something about our political landscape. We have 150 seats in our parliament and like 15 parties, 3 major ones, 4 middle and the rest is small. Our 3 biggest parties are the Socialists (PvdA) who had 45 seats, the Liberals (VVD) who had 38 seats and the Christian Democrates party (CDA) who had 29 seats. Our government was made up by the PvdA, VVD and the democrates D66 (14 seats). Parties always have to form a coalition to make a majority in the government. After 8 years of ruling the voters were fed up with them and it was time for a change. This was especially filled in by newcomer Pim Fortuyn, who in like 3 months out of the blue was about to become the biggest party of our country. A very charasmatic man and an excellent debater. His 4 biggest themes were health care, safety, education and immigration. About immigration, on which all the fuss is about, he said that he wanted to minimize the amount of immigrants. So let's say 50% of the current amount. Did he want to close the border? No. And, most important, did he want to send people out of the country? NO. Actually, he even wanted to give illegal immigrants who've been here for more than 5 years a legal residence permit.

At all means he was NOT a racist and NOT an extreme right politician. Actually, he was extremely far from that. Do people even KNOW what extreme right IS? That's racism and saying that native inhabitants come before immigrants and all that crap. That was SO not him. It's truly amazing that NO foreign country was able to retrieve true information about him.

Anyway, I'm talking about Mr. Fortuyn in the paste tense, because on May 6th, now 10 days ago, he got KILLED by some lame ass environmentalist coward. A very, very sad day and a true loss of a very interesting man who was about to cause a political landslide. It's safe to say that 5/6 is our 9/11, so to speak. A true shock and the first policital killing in the Netherlands in 400 years, so in modern history it has never happened. Anyway, because it was so close before the elections, which were held yesterday, he couldn't be removed from the list, so he went into the elections as a dead policital leader of his party, which is called List Pim Fortuyn or LPF, completely called after him, coz he WAS his party.

So yesterday the election caused a political landslide anyway. The Socialists lost 22 of their 45 seats, the Liberals lost 15 of their 38 seats, the Christians won 14 seats and newcomer LPF won, out of nowhere, 26 seats, with a leader who got shot dead 9 days before. Speaking of historical elections.

So because of this it's definitely a political swing to the right, but NOT to extreme right, fascism or any crap like that. And then this line:


I can't see why anybody would want to vote for the idology that helped to kill millions in WW II.

WW II are the blackest pages of Holland's history and, no, we would NEVER vote for any awful stuff like that. It's really sad even reading that line.

So forget anything you've read and remember everything I wrote. We can't be compared to France. It's a big insult to compare Fortuyn with Le Penn.

Yes, we are the most liberal country in Europe and one of the most liberal countries in the world and we still are. Immigrants are becoming a problem here, and EVERY party acknowledges that (we are one of the most densely populated countries in the world; 16 million people living on the surface of about the state of Maryland). Just because 1 party (and at least the Liberal party says so too, even more than LPF, heck, even the Socialists agree!) suggests that less immigrants should be allowed to enter our country doesn't mean we've become a fascist country. Geez, what is wrong with this world? Journalists apparantly rather exaggerate and write what they like instead of the truth, which, to them, is not as interesting.

Ugg, it really makes me sad to read all this BS about my country.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I apologize because I was mostly repeating what I heard on the News and that is why I asked because I didn't know much about except that the Netherland are a very tolerant nation, I Know plenty of the historical about the Netherlands but recent political events I haven't kept up with. Still from what it looks like, it appears the other western nations have made it way worse than what it is. In one paper I read I think it was an LA paper they made comparisons to France which is a little more embarassing I think because Le Pen is easily a racist. I would have read more papers but I only heard this morning, and had no time to keep looking, so I decided to post that thread and see what you said one way or the other. I hope there is no hard feelings I have nothing against the Netherlands in fact I think its a very nice country, and I would have been shocked to see anything happen there similar to France (the French have a history with dictators and anti-semitism) the Netherlands do not. So I am glad to see the press has just blown things out of proportion.

[ReaperFett]

Grrr... it makes me mad reading all the BS in this topic.
Hope that wasn't directed at me there

[Jedieb]

Great post Dutchy! I heard about that assasination a few days ago. That was unbelievable. With all the talk of the extreme right how ironic was it that Fortuyn was killed by someone who could be characterized as being on the extreme left? I guess many are quick to spot a trend in one European nation and quickly apply it to others. Sorry if anything I said got you riled up. Thanks again for the post.

[Marcus Telcontar]

It amazes me racial themes are cropping up in elections all over the world.

In australia, the Liberal Govt stank. It was going to be voted out by a huge margin in all likelihood. The opposition (Labour) was looking good.

Last august, a ship called The Tampa picked up 400 illegal immargants from a sinking boat about 1000 km off Australia. They were refused entry to Australian waters, full stop. Other boat immargants were detained and turned around. The Government held firm and made sur ethe illegals were not alloed onto Australian soil, to the point of paying Narau, a poor pacific nation millions to house them. This was the singlemost popular decision the Govt did - their election chances improved out of sight and with the help of Sept 11 FUD and also what is now called the Children Overboard affair (Three days before the election was called, photos of illegals throwing their children overboard a boat to pressure naval captains to take them to Aust).

Labour didnt stand a chance in the end and Liberal got back in with an increased majority. so by no small part of a Illegal immargant debate and very tough stance, we had an election fairly much decided on immargration.

Now, I'm not saying the Dutch situation was the same - reading what Dutchy posted was really interesting as we in Aust dont know much apart from the fact this man Fortuyn was gunned down - but there does seem to be immargration debates happening all over the world.

[Dutchy]

First of all, my anger was by no means directed at any of you guys. I know you get your info from the media, to who I directed my post. I can't believe how wrong they are.


Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
I Know plenty of the historical about the Netherlands

So, what else do you know? And how come you know? :)


Originally posted by Jedieb
Great post Dutchy! I heard about that assasination a few days ago. That was unbelievable. With all the talk of the extreme right how ironic was it that Fortuyn was killed by someone who could be characterized as being on the extreme left? I guess many are quick to spot a trend in one European nation and quickly apply it to others. Sorry if anything I said got you riled up. Thanks again for the post.

Thanks Jedieb, and you're welcome.

Yes, it's surprising that the killer is on the extreme left. Though Fortuyn did have some radical environmental ideas, it was not a hot topic at all. Those were the 4 themes I mentioned earlier.

[Dutchy]

Jedi Master Carr, about your earlier post:


Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Really though what concerns me the most is that the Netherlands is the most liberal country in Europe (light drug laws, legalized prostitution)

Yes, we have light drug laws. We're not talking about hard drugs, only soft drugs. The use of marijuana is legal in The Netherlands, kinda. This is practically true, theoretically not. The use of so-called softdrugs is tolerated, not legal. That's the whole idea: it's tolerated, but not legal. But basically, a cop doesn't care if you light up a joint while standing next to him on the street! This is as long you don't carry over 30 gramms of dope on you. Once you do, you'll be considered as a street-dealer, which is illegal, no matter what dope you're carrying. Marihuana is sold in the special designed coffee-shops. If you're simply shopping in the main shopping streets you wouldn't notice them at all when you would visit Amsterdam for instance. Anyway, this also isn't legal, but tolerated. The funny double-standard is that it's illegal to import (smuggle) large quantities into the country. It is also illegal to grow dope in large quantities. So where do the coffeeshops get their dope from? You can't import it, you can't grow, but it's tolerated when you sell it. This double standard has its advantages and disadvantages. Advantage is that the public doesn't grab the hard-, more harmfull stuff at once. The public is also very liberal about it, we don't see it as a big deal. Disadvantage is the crime connected to the import and plantation of the dope. But that's hardly a disadvantage if you look at the crime involved in dealing with illegal softdrugs when people have to sneak around and steal and stuff. What could be a good idea is: get the cannabis-products out of the Dutch drug-bill, and raise taxes on it like we do on tabacco and liquor. This would certainly diminish crime even more. The reason why this hasn't happened yet is because we are a member of the European Union. Our partners in the Union aren't as liberal as us.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah the American Media loves to blow things out of proportio. As far as what I know about the Netherlands most my knowledge is of it is from the Early modern Europe period up until WW II other than the drug stuff and the legalized Prostitution, I didn't know much beyond that.

[Dutchy]

Well, not only the American media, actually every damn media. Even European neighbor countries of us.

[Jedieb]

The only problem I have with the legalization of pot is the potato chip scarcity it's sure to induce.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I guess that wouldn't surprise me, actually the media also blew out of proportion Le Pen in France, sure it shows there are some anti-semites there but like 75% of France voted against him in the run off I have to say most people didn't like him. Only in Austria I have to say was an exception they elected a Nazi type party into power but it didn't surprise me Austria is know for its anti-semitism.

As Far as Netherlands goes its a great country and it suffer a lot through WW II the Nazis brutalize that nation probably for hiding the Jews that is why I like the Netherlands its such a tolerant country and they actually stood up to the Nazis.

[Dutchy]

Woops, this was supposed to be a new thread.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Lol I was wondering why you brought up a thread that has been dead for two years :) Kind of cool reading it again.

[Dutchy]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=487&e=3&u=/ap/netherlands_filmmaker_slain

Read this then :)

[Dutchy]

Especially this:


Van Gogh's killing immediately rekindled memories of the 2002 assassination of Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn, who polarized the nation with his anti-immigration views — particularly against Moroccan and Turkish immigrants — and was shot to death days before national elections. A Dutch animal rights activist was convicted in his slaying.


Van Gogh's next movie, scheduled to debut on the Internet in December, was titled "06-05" and was about the May 6, 2002 slaying of Fortuyn.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well he sounds a little bit like Great Grandfather. Some of his stuff is very controversal sounds a little bit like Rusheed(sp) who wrote that book about Islam years ago. Except he went underground after that book was released..

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Well he sounds a little bit like Great Grandfather. Some of his stuff is very controversal sounds a little bit like Rusheed(sp) who wrote that book about Islam years ago. Except he went underground after that book was released..

http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00116/Salman_Rushdie_Padm_116303a.jpg

Well, who wouldn't want to go underground when you have a wife like he does? ;)

[Dutchy]

Slain right-wing leader Pim Fortuyn voted 'greatest Dutchman of all time'
(http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041116/en_afp/netherlands_fortuyn_041116002059)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Man what is up with that? He hardly did anything William the Orange was way more important if it wasn't for him the Netherland would be part of France right now.

[Dutchy]

Definitely. It only shows how frustrated people still are about Fortuyn's killing.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That is why I don't like polls like that.

[Dutchy]

I voted for Michiel de Ruyter, btw.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Who is that, the name sounds familar just can't place him.

[Dan the Man]

I'm gonna vote for that Van Gogh guy!

[Telan Desaria]

Before anyone gets on their high horse and shoots down my well known political views, in no way does the Reichssozialistichepartei (Social-Imperialist party) endorse racism or bigotry. While we believe in the conquest of other lands, the colonization of territory, and the militant expansion of a nation's borders, we also believe in the assimilation of the conquered culture into the conquering culture - - not the exclusion and repression thereof.

Let me also say again that out party has no ties to the Nazi Party or its environs. We have, however, learned from the lessons of the past, and, seeing what benefits could be wrung from such a state, endorse socialism and dare I say a breed of facism. That is, albeit, without the radical hatred.

As far as the war goes, we must not forget Denmark. It was considered by many officers to be the ideal satellite state with little resistance, and little forcible implementation of German policy. Jews and other undesireables - -who lest we forget I am a member - wereescorted out but the number hovered at fifty - -total for all 5 yrs.

The following statement may be taken as cold and calculating but I am not speaking with any emotion whatsoever, merely a clean and collected tactical sense.

The Netherlands made things worse on themselves by trying to resist military to the German occupation. They were swept aside when their Army was in tact and the resistance, while gathering information for the Allies was doubtless helpful, their attempts to take up arms brought the wrath of those units station there, primarily the IInd SS Das Reich Panzerkorp (2nd Das Reich, 9th Hohenstaufen, 10th Frundsburg SS Panzer Divisionen)

The Dutch were also very forunate that my great grandfather, Generalleutnant Kurt von Chill dismissed the advice of OKW and did not destroy the fjords or levies *not sure which* that held the ocean out. It would have halted the Allied advance but he refused to see soo many peoples futurres annihilated.

As a note, I have only been to Holland in passing, staying a night in Rotterdam. That is the extent of my physical time there.

As for today, it is an excellent country with some very liberal views, and with the sole exception being the legalization of drugs, I consider it the model nation. I wish it the best.



My heartfelt sympathies to their people for the loss of good leaders, as they are hardest type to acquire.

[Jedi Master Carr]

To my knowledge, Dutchy would need to back me up, The Netherlands hasn't had an army in ages. Germany only invaded there because it made it faster to get to France. The Dutch were just overwhelmed as they had no force to protect themselves. I think French and British forces were all they had.

[Telan Desaria]

Incorrect - - they did have an army, about ten divisions' worth. No armor or aerial support to speak of, but they did have infantry.

[Jedi Master Carr]

It couldn't been very good. Also they were neutral as I remember from my classes on WW 2 they didn't really have a standing army. I am guessing those troops were more used as a national guard. Ten divisions isn't very much.