Force discussion, Redux

[Sanis Prent]

Okay, I figure this is something that needs to be delved into, but this time, with a bit more tact. Dyzm, please mind your mouth, and watch what you say.

This goes for you as well, Marcus. I don't know if you realize it or not, but alot of what you say comes out just as abrasive or more so than profanity. Everyone be courteous and respectful of other people, and this can continue.

First off, I'd like to say I'm rather bewildered and amazed at the insinuations in the previous thread. Marcus stated that he believed that a blade implemented from force-manipulated air molecules was a God Mode. Not only do I flat-out disagree, but its also at the absolute heart of everything that Anbira has done for the past three years. As pressure on matter increases, matter heats up, and with enough force, undergoes a phase change. Thus gas (the air around you and I), can become plasma (the stuff of lightsabers). Its been the heart of my compression sphere technique, as well as the plasma saber summon that I began using around last april. So to arbitrarily declare Dyzm's windblade a "god mode" and validate other moves which are essentially the same is disconcerting.

Nup, side note...Shimi also used darkness-dependent illusions as well <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/image/emoticons_classic/smile.gif ALT=":)">

[Lady DeVille]

I can see how it takes more finesse to move molecules, however, it is the same basic concept as a Force induced wind, or funnel storm. Not a Force Storm, those are Dark side and different, i'm talking moving the air to create a weather disturbance...

I have always dealt with manipulating small things with the Force. Because De'Ville is obviously deficient in mind control, she has greater control over telekinesis. Its like how blind people have great hearing. So, to people who have practiced, it is not a godmode to manipulate on that level. IMO.

If you had a padawan or apprentice jump up and say he was making a weapon out of the air, then I'd talk to him and teach him better. But I don't see a problem with Dyzm doing so, or with Anbira or with Marcus, or any other Rper for that matter.

[Marcus QDunn]

The heart of the issue is control I do not see how a windblade can be controlled with anything like the speed and fine grain control needed.

Now re-read what I said Sanis - I did not say Force manipulated air molecules are a god mode, far from it if you would do me the curtesy of reading my statements. I also do use them. HOWEVER, I assert it takes time and concentration and has more often than not be focused on one stationary poiint before releasde. I assert that you can not use Force maniulated molecules as a blade as you just can not apply such a fine control, fast enough or accuratly enough.

To use the Force to lash out with something like a wall or a Push, takes less defined control and much easier done. Now I have based a lot of my powers on Tlekineses and I also use a very fine grain control to create an area effect after a given length of time, like a Fire Storm, or a tornado. Each one of these is set up a few moves ahead and I have to be care about splitting my concentration - even if I dont have to do that, it still takes an appreciable amount of time.

So there is the issue. Manipulation of molecules over time, so what? Using it in a real time fashion as a bladed weapon? Not a chance. I believe it is not fair nor possible and I stand by that assertion.

Now your plasma sphere works by compression - your not doing a fine grain control. Exuse the expression, but it is a blunt attack without a great deal of subtley. I can see that happening. It is a advancement of a Force Push, except concentrating into a single spot, then releasing. There is no issue with that. My Fire Storm is a set piece over three or four steps, beginning to move molecules, then concentrating my effort into that small area, to build up a great deal of heat withn that area, with the purpose to create a FAE type device. Air is ignited when my mind releases the heat charge, creating a fireball and an overpressure.

Both are blunt. I dispute true fine grain control can be done in a fight timeframe and certainly not in actively.

[Helenias QDunn]

I sent Marcus away while I wrote this, becuase I am sure it would annoy even him.

I am going to make this clear. I really dont care about how long you have been here, or of your hard won powers, I have made a policy over my nearly three years in the roleplaying set that I would not accept anything else other than what is seen in the movies. I have accepted I am not powerful in the Force and I would say I have always disliked the overabundance of power displays. I have had arguements with Marcus on this and I have made the only item I would regularly use that is not in the movies is the cortoris coating on my Pike. Nothing else.

I have always played the most powerful weapon is a planning and cunning mind and that I insist is the Jedi's or Sith's best weapon. Thence I read this discussion and to me, it is a mute point. Your all wrong if it is not seen in a movie. I have refused to even consider items like Vampires or ... what was the cartoon that was popular for a while?... Others might, but I do not. I am strict in my interpetations and that is why of all players, you can not even begin to conteplate a claim of an excessive attack or ability accusation against myself. I will stay that way and I do not mind if this is offensive or places noses out of joint.

Thence, the test is - is this blade in the movies? No? Then it is not possible. Is a fireball in the movies? No? Not possible. Is molecular movement seen in the movies? No? Then I contend it is not acceptible.

I have always also made a point of staying out of day to day roleplay for this reason. I also make this stance at what I do is beyond reproach, is genuine and more to the point, is not power grabbing. I roleplay to create a character and an expression of what I would think I would be able to do if I was a woman who had a "Father" who was Imperial and I developed myself into a Imperial Royal Guard. Now I am a Jedi, but i am one whom is not that powerful. But I will tell you something - I dont need firestorms or air blades to make myself a tough opponent. I will take the power of the mind over dubious powers that could be disputed.

[Sanis Prent]

Conversely:

Were Royal Guard capable of lasting more than 2 seconds against a Jedi in the movies? No? Then not possible <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/image/emoticons_classic/smile.gif ALT=":)">

Of course, you might astutely point out that Royal Guard and Jedi never actually fought in the movies, but that rather tunnel-vision approach still stands.

[Sage Hazzard]

I agree with Helenias. She's actually made me rethink some of my power. I need to tone them down a bit. They've gotten out of hand and far from canon.

I will ask something and I'm not taking sides here. I simply need to have this debated and answered so I can know the proper way of RPing, as I have many weather changing aspects that involve molecular manipulation... Didn't Yoda say "size matters not"? If you can move an X-Wing effortlessly, then why not a much tinier thing? I understand it's small, so it's harder to focus on or single out, but the quote still lingers.

[Loki Ahmrah]

You know what really winds me up, when people claim Yoda had difficulty lifting that X-Wing up out of the swamp. At what point did he have difficulty? That's what I'd like to know. And because of this they say that little else is possible via the Force, yes Helenias, I'm talking to YOU! <img src=http://www.thegjo.com/forum/smileys/magtongue.gif ALT=":p">

The Force affects everything, rules of size and mass do not apply when it concerns the Force, it can be done, the only thing that is impossible with the Force is using any Force Powers against an Ysalamiri. Apart from that I am completely open minded.

When I say size, I mean no matter how big something is, if it is microscopic or atomic, obviously it will require a greater degree of control.

[Morgan Evanar]

A completely cannonized approach-- SUCH UTTER ROT! Its completely illogical to contstrain anyone that much.

I don't think the windblade is very possible from a simply physics standpoint, simply because of the behavior of air... it would basically be like a thin Force sphere at best. Other things, well, it depends: I always try and take everything with a grain of reality and known behaviors of things in the SW universe.

[AmazonBabe]

I like to keep an open mind for the sake of imagination. This is RP. We're all entitled to our own story-building, and that includes creativity like Force powers and the like. And that also gives us the freedom to choose whether we use only the movies, or the movies and EU, or movies, EU, and creativity.

I just don't RP with those I know are "picky" to some degree about certain things, or I will RP with them, but using non-Force sensitive characters. Makes for less headache and OOC comments, and more RPing.

Now, I do agree it would take a helluva lot of control to guide a wind-blade or whatever it was. It's not like creating a plasma ball and letting it fly. But if you RP with explaination, and the explaination is feesable, then I have no problem with it. Just RP around it by avoiding or putting up some defense to it.

We've all got a license to be creative and imaginative, and we use it the way we wish (so long as we don't "run away with our imagination").

[Salem Ave]

I agree with the point that restricting yourself completely to what is in the movies is impossible. For one, I have not - and correct me if I'm wrong - ever seen a Jedi take on more than one Padwan in a movie, nor have I ever seen a Warrior Jedi.

We aren't here to follow the movies. We are here to be creative and roleplay, this does not mean that we have to follow everything to such a minute detail, therefore nullifying a lot of what people do here. You just have to look at a lot of goings-on here; if you try to apply a theory that only movie proven facts should be accepted, then you are stripping the roleplay of everything that makes it worth while and fun.

As for the whole blade thing, I don't have a problem with it as long as it is done realistically. When I fought Anbira, as Vega, he used it - and it was acceptable because a) he backed it up with a few posts and b) because he was Anbira, i.e a Jedi-come-Sith-come-Jedi Master.

[Sanis Prent]

Plo Koon is a "Warrior Jedi", although he doesn't carry a sign over his head or wear a t-shirt with it in TPM or AotC. Its more of that "on the side" information, which fleshes out the movies.

[Dasquian Belargic]

Ah well then, my mistake. Thanks for pointing that out <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/image/emoticons_classic/smile.gif ALT=":)">

[Helenias QDunn]

Sanis -

I equate a Royal Guard to someone like Jango Fett, who I read with much fascination lasted a lot longer that 2 seconds against a Jedi. By a whole bunch of tricks and physical skill. That is my character in the whole. Tricks, skill and a dash of Force Power to make things very interesting.

I reject the concept you can't remain within the movies, or it is boring, or it limits yourself. I have remained so to a very great degree and I will continue to do so. I have I believe a character you dont really even need to suspend disbelief with. Now I wont stop anyone else doing what they want, I am just making clear what I personally will do

[Sanis Prent]

Thats great and all, but still...you never see a Royal Guard actually fight a Jedi. So even assuming something so small is an assumption that is outside the grasp of the movies. Its not a major debasing of your theory, but a debasing nonetheless.

And no need to make clear on what you'll do, I assure you. You've made it lucid on many other occasions. We all know.

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

Ok, I understand what you are saying. So, I have thought up other ways to summon the windblade which is fast and effective.

1.) Just use a blast of wind, and channel it, akin to a pressure washer. With the force, you can channel it to such a small point at any distance. And with such pressure behind it, that in theory, it can blast through anything. That is more like a spear point. Neat little button sized hole.

2.) I looked into this, the other is just off the wall idea.
Inbetween air molecules is empty space. Which in truth is not really empty. For electromagnetic fields and other similar energy can be found inside this so called "empty" space. Instead of using the air, you use the electromagnetic fields.
(Ever wonder why giant electromagnetics hum sometimes? Its distrubing the magnetic fields in the empty space, which in turn causes the disruption of the air molecules, causing them to produce the noise.) Now, with the force, you create an electromagnetic field of your own. Which is simple, and you fling it at the enemy. 2 things could happen, either, the Air Molecules go with the "empty" space, creating the Wind Blade, or...
the Air Molecules rush behind the magnetic fields, rushing to fill in the space just vacated. Creating a shockwave which can also be guided by the force.

Now I aint no scientist, and my knowledge on this is shakey at best, but dont ignore it.

And Plasma Energy balls are simple to make. I made them in Real Life with a Microwave. All you need is a Toothpick (or other types of wooden objects), an eraser, some matches, and a clean Microwave. Light the toothpick on fire, stick it in the eraser and place in Microwave. Turn Microwave on. Now if the toothpike is still flaming, then after a little while, you will see some bright flashes. Very Bright, and you can see the fire grow to enormous size. The flashes then send off a sparks, and if look inside and to the top of the microwave, you will see blue "plasma" Rolling around the top. If you have any dirt on the top inside of the microwave, the energy balls will burn through the microwave at the point where the dirt and metal meet.

[Loki Ahmrah]

I know the space between atoms, or the energy at least between atoms is known as "Zero Point" energy, and in theory, a cup full of zero point energy, when harnessed and released has enough potency to evaporate all the worlds oceans, how awesome is that!

[AmazonBabe]

OOOO! Plasma in Microwaves and Zero Point energy that can evaporate the oceans! COOOOL!

There's an explaination for everything. <img src=http://www.thegjo.com/forum/smileys/magtongue.gif ALT=":p">

(Uh, might wanna add "Don't try this at home!") <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/image/emoticons_classic/laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

[Lady DeVille]

<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/image/emoticons_classic/laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

Yes, that is one theory, if you can harness it. But right now, they have proven that there are electromagnetic fields in the empty space. For the electromagnetic fields go through everything. But with the force to give them a "boost" they would become power electromagnetic fields... Also, you could proberly scramble circuts with this power.

[Helenias QDunn]

I'll make one more comment, then I will disjoin the discussion. What I wish to add is an observation. It may be wrong, but before shouting me down, please consdier what I say

What my real discomfort with wild powers is what I once thought - it turns into a roleplaying arms race, with everyone trying to out do each other. I have noted this effect a few times.

Now before decrying what I said, please, can you honestly say you have not been drawn into a Force Arms race at some point? This is the reason I wish to remain within tight boundaries, so I have to use something else, like my intelligence, not to be drawn into who can do the latest power. I would also say motivation is a telling factor as well. If the motivation for a power is to gain an advantage over other players by some power that cant be defended easily against, then I do believe the power is created for the wrong OOC reasons. If on the other had, it's done to say bring out a character flaw, trait, to examine, have some fun with, to drive a stroy, then it's being done for the right OOC reason.

Therein lies a reason I choose not to be more active. I am not interesting in Force Arms races, nor am I interested in gaining all the power I can. I know that is not a popular statement, but I believe it is a statement some others should look at and ponder. Yes Marcus, you too.

[Loki Ahmrah]

Helenias, I'm afraid things aren't quite as black and white as that and to look at them in such a light is really limiting only your own perspective of things.

How about developing a new Force power for the sake of it, spontaneously out of boredom. I'm sorry but you cannot tell me that Jedi or Sith Masters wouldn't want to further experiment with the properties of the Force after learning all there is to be known from others. Hence the reason why Palpatine came across the Force Storm.

I refuse to accept that something that affects the entire fictional Star Wars universe; created by all living things, affecting all living things and is seemingly an infinte amount of energy, can be wittled down to a simple bit of a push, pull or tweaking of the mind. Yes, there may be some who do allow themselves to be involved in what you call an "Arms Race" but I'm quite willing to believe that most don't. I think you need to think out of the box really, expand your horizons because I'm willing to bet that if you let go of that roleplaying dogma, then you might find more fun in roleplaying.

A trial period couldn't do any damage. If you'd like me to asses my current views on the use and application of greater Force Powers, then I'd suggest for you to also asses yours. I believe that to be fair.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Well the reason these powers usually come into play isn't for whatever percieved "force arms race" you might see...its for expression. It would be terribly boring if everybody had the same skills, at the same level, fighting the same way. Terribly boring indeed. So some have unique abilities, still defined within the scope of the force, but things that give their character a distinctive style. The saying I like is "A jack of all trades is a master of none". Some prefer to be specialists, concentrating in one or two things, and becoming very adept at those, while being rather lacking in other regards. A good example would be Anbira...he's a physical manipulationist specialty, with only the most basic mentalist abilities. Akrabbim is another good example, but on the opposite spectrum. An illusion adept, with practically no telekinesis. There are others who follow this trend as well, realizing that it expands the RP possibilities vastly.

[Gurney Devries]

Gurney is completely lacking in all sorts of Force abilities - he has the most difficult time doing something as simple as levitating a bottle. Perhaps I will eventually find something that he's good at, as his character developes. But, having played a Jedi Master for a long, long time, I find it a bit of fun to try a character who can hardly touch the Force at all. So, if I did decide to come up with a unique Force power for him, I doubt that it would be to outdo anyone else - he'd still be significantly weaker than any other Force user. It would just be to give him something he's good at. Most people have at least one thing they're adept at doing.